Everything posted by Joe Momma
Bit of personal backstory to start out on this if anyone cares. Stuffing it into a spoiler tag to save space. Skip over it if you want, you won't miss anything important. Also general spoiler warnings for World Of Ice and Fire, but nothing relating to the main series. It'll also rely very heavily on info from it, so I highly recommend reading it first or you may get lost. All right kids, grab your tinfoil hats because this is gonna get weird. Reference links to the Wiki at the end of the quotes. As for the World Of Ice And Fire quotes, well... go out and buy the book for yourself. Seriously: it's great. There's a LOT to cover, so where to start? I suppose with the black stones, and particularly the mazes of Lorath and the Mazemakers. There’s been theories about these stones going around. MisogynisticLesbian pieced together a good map of their location (ignore Dragonstone, Crabclaw point and Leng. They’re for something else) with a theory thread trying to connect the dots, but I’m kicking it up to 500% here. This is not to be confused with the Dragonstone of Valaria, which is very similar but not oily and seemingly more... user friendly as all of the black stone mentioned here is described in a menacing manner, drinking in light and often shrouded in mystery. (Reddit user Warg42 has suggested that Valerian Dragonstone is in fact treated obsidian, which makes sense. Dragonstone is Valerian, Valeria was surrounded by 14 volcanoes, obsidian comes form volcanoes. What that makes the greasy black stone, I don't know. Thanks Warg!) So, the mazes of Lorath: Attackers from the sea and black stone. Remember that, I'll loop back to it. In fact you'll hear hear vague allusions and promises to return to things a LOT throughout because there's a lot to cover and one thing at a time. Anyways: There’s 6 other examples of this strange black stone substance (and 1 historical): There’s 3 things all of these have in common (minus the one falling from the sky in Yi Ti for #2 and #3, which I’ve honestly got nothing for. That one is weird so we're going to mostly disregard it. ) : No one knows where they came from. These stones have always been there before any humans documented them, long abandoned and then rediscovered. They’re all by some kind of water. The Seastone Chair is on Old Wyk, one of the Iron Islands. Hightower is on Battle Isle in the Whispering Sound. The Isle of Toads is an island just north of Sothoryos in the Summer Sea. Yeen is on the banks of an unnamed river (or at least doesn’t have a listed name I could find) Reference map!. Assahai is a port town bordered by The Summer Sea and The Saffron Straits. And lastly The Five Forts are by The Bleeding Sea. There is some strong significance to this I'll get to. They are all either far to the East or far to the West, minus Lorath, which can be explained with the Mazemakers, which again: I’ll get to, just disregard it for now. There is some strong significance behind this as well. A chair, a toad, forts, a giant-ass town. These aren’t naturally occurring, someone or something built them. But those stones had to come from somewhere beyond the Mazemakers since there’s no evidence of them outside of Lorath. How would they leave bones in one area and nowhere else? Plus something like a normal human sized chair doesn't make sense being made by giant(ish) people. So we can't pin down who they came from (not yet anyways), but we can guess where. Now it’s safe to assume the world this is taking place on is round, because how could it not be? So what does that have to do with anything? I draw your attention back to #3: These are either all in far west or far east areas, nothing (outside Lorath, which Mazemakers, later, yada yada yada) is in the center of the know world. From this I draw 1 conclusion: They did not originate from the center of the Known World/Eastern or Mid Essos and spread West to Westeros and East to far Essos. Instead they started in the most far East reaches of Essos beyond the known world and spread West to East Essos and East across the Summer Sea to Westeros. Now that’s pretty confusing since Westeros implies West and without a 3D visual, so I’ll use real world examples: Splitting the northern part of the world into 4 even sections (the northern part because otherwise one or more sections would just be the ocean) you get Canada, Iceland, Eastern Russia and Western Russia. Since I’ll be using directional terms let’s just call those Europe Russia (Western) and Asia Russia (Eastern). If something’s popping up in Europe Russia and Canada you might assume it’s coming from Asia Russia and spreading east to Canada and west to Europe Russia. BUT it could be coming from Iceland and spreading East to Europe Russia and West to Canada. Now swap Europe Russia with Westeros, Asia Russia with Western Essos, Canada with Eastern Essos, and Iceland with the undiscovered, unknown, and unnamed Eastern coast of Essos. Let’s just call that coast The Fishy Lands for simplicity (Why Fishy? Everybody say it with me: I’ll get to that). Since all of these stone structures are estimated to be extremely old, we need to go back very far, thousands of years. So an empire starts in far far Essos in the Fishy Lands while the Children and Giants roam Westeros and even the Fisher Queens are a far off dream. It spreads across vast amounts of land reaching from Yeen in Sothoryos, looping along Sothoryos and Ulthos (I suspect they didn’t get beyond the Five Forts and Thousand Islands (I’ll get to them too) in Essos as there’s no trace of them there and water is scarce. Again: the water will come into play in a bit. Bear with me here) dominating the far far East Essos, The Fishy Lands and even extending across the Sunset Sea to briefly touch some of Westeros. One fateful day (weather before or after their empire had greatly expanded, one cannot say, but it was before it started to crumble) some of them discover Lorath and the Mazemakers. Fighting ensues, attackers from the sea (again, this is important as you'll see later), the Mazemakers are defeated and their secrets of making that black stone taken and spread throughout the empire. This explains how these black stone structures found their way to the western coast of Westeros while there’s none along the East coast of Westeros or Western Essos (Again: minus Lorath) and why the Mazemakers left no traces anywhere outside Lorath. So what happened to them to topple their empire? Firstly; they’re largely sea bearing folk (again: I’ll get to why in a bit) and what happened to the sea in ancient times? The First Men crossed on the Arm of Dorne and Children of the Forest were dying en mass. To try and prevent this they used the Hammer of the Waters to shatter the Arm of Dorne into the Stepstones. Note: It’s called the Hammer Of The Waters, thus it’s safe to assume it broke the arm not through tearing apart the land, but rather raising the seas. This would explain why there’s traces of a sunken civilization within the Thousand Islands (a civilization that belonged to our mystery empire building, black stone buddies. And as you’ve probably guessed: more on that in a bit). So in Westeros the arm breaks. But all seas are connected. One sea cannot rise without the other rising with it. So along the Eastern Essos coast of the Fishy Lands and the Western areas of Westeros the Sunset Sea rises too. Our mystery empire lived along the coasts as shown by reasons I will again; get to in a bit, but right now it can be seen through the lack of black stones away from the water. The sea rises and engulfs much of their port cities in Essos and cripples them for generations to come, reducing those not killed to nomads. Judging by their smaller impressions in Westeros they had only recently set up shop there and are cut off from their mainland brothers in Essos, are unable to sustain themselves or run into conflict with the First Men and die off. Though perhaps not entirely. Which again: I’ll get to. So that’s likely a wounding but not lethal blow to our mysterious empire. So, how’d our 7 relics avoid sinking when the seas rose? The Seastone Chair was likely raised after the sea rose (and yet again: I’ll get to that). Ashai, Yeen, The Five Forts, and The Toad Statue could all have been raised afterwards too. Both Yeen and Asshai are large cities likely built after the seas rose crippling the Fishy Empire's hopes of expanding East to Westeros as they lost their ports and the Sunset Sea became even larger and more treacherous to cross. Instead they turned their attention East and South, founding Asshai and Yeen. As for Lorath and the Hightower Base, it’s hard to say. ….Perhaps they were simply built on the highest hill and thus avoided the rising waters. Regardless: they remain where this empire doesn’t. So what does finally topple them for good? Well, what almost killed the men in Westeros? What almost toppled the great empire of Yi Ti? What threatened to destroy civilization as we know it? The Long Night. This is interesting as there 2 versions in 2 different areas: The Long Night of Westeros with The Last Hero everyone knows by heart by now. And then there’s the legend of Azor Ahai and Lightbringer in Yi Ti and Asshai. Now here’s when things get interesting: in Westeros the Others came from the North, an uncharted expanse. In Yi Ti and Asshai The Darkness came from the East, and uncharted expanse. Now these 2 versions are so similar in nature it’s logical to assume they come from the same source and half of the darkness/Others headed East to Yi Ti and the rest West to Northern Westeros. Now George R.R. Martin has debunked the theory that Essos and Westeros are connected via the lands beyond the Grey Waste (far East Essos) and The Lands Of Always Winter. But there’s definitely water between them. And water can freeze when it’s cold. And when was it colder than the Long Night? It’s essitently what happened with Homospaiens crossing over an Ice Bridge during the Ice Age to the Americas, just with a lot more evil and death. Now as to how they wound up so far North in Westeros, perhaps Essos swerves and turns north after the Known World ends? But regardless to get to Yi Ti/Eastern Essos they had to either originate in far Eastern Essos or originate far in the North and trek across Eastern Essos. I.e.: The Fishy Lands are in their way. So is that end of our poor nameless fishy empire? Perhaps not. Now it’s going to seem like I’ve changed subjects (and meds) completely, but I promise you that as always: it’ll loop back. Bear with me. The Deep Ones Yeah, our empire is a bunch of fish people. HEY HEY, I see you trying to leave thinking I’ve gone completely off my rocker! But I promise you, it adds up! Remember when I said: Now that significance? Fish people would like the water and stick close to it. Or That’s why, because they were inhabited by fish people. I’ve also alluded to the Thousand Islands. How are they connected? Remnants of a submerged city with fish gods and a fear of the water? I suspect the Thousand Islanders were once men conquered by the Deep Ones and made in slaves or servants. The rising sea from The Hammer of The Waters drowned their city, which leads to some hardships. Some Deep Ones go down with the ship and remain with their sunken city while their human servants remain above the water full time due to the whole drowning thing. Now given the Deep One’s tendencies to build their stone structures on land I suspect they’re amphibious rather than full time water or land dwellers which is why in addition to the homelessness through destroyed cities the rapidly rising seas were so deadly back in the day as pure merpeople would be fine. But the Thousand Islands city isn’t completely sunken as 1,000 (or 300 if you believe the Ibbenese) islands remain above sea level. The humans are above land, the Deep Ones largely under the sea achieving an almost deity status judging by the fish-human hybrid statues, sacrificing (or offering) of sailors to the sea by the locals, and their fear of the water. Now, are there still Deep Ones there? I don’t know, no one has stuck around long enough to find out. Even Corlys Velaryon, The ‘Mother F-ing’ Sea Snake, got there and decided “Nope!” and went back home. But that’s still not everything I wanted to loop back to (because there was like 50 things). Now, what is their first public appearance? (chronologically) Or Deep Ones. Theron says Deep Ones inspire Merlings, Merlings destroyed Mazemakers... I sense connection! I also mentioned the rising sea may not have been the end of the Deep Ones in Westeros. So, what remained of them? His children could live in land or water? Because they weren’t human, and neither was he. Now, living 1,000+ years, that could be true as nobody knows the lifespan of a Deep One. Although it could’ve just been longer than usual and then greatly exaggerated as legends often are, but I still want to throw the possibility out there. No usual human’s skin turn grey with age, but fish people? Maybe. He one day set aside his crown and returned to the sea. I suspect this was less walking off into the ocean to die and more a voyage to try and return to The Fishy Lands. Is there anything left of our fishy friends? There’s an interesting side note about Toad Isle. BUT I SAY NOT!, for another supposed animal-man hybrid caught my eye. Now they’re described as scaled, which is odd if you think about it. Lizard scales are generally small and look more like just a rough texture unless you look close. But what also has scales? Fish. I propose they are not lizardmen, but rather fishmen! They’re located by The Five Forts: one of our 7 black stone structures. While the forts are presumably owned by Yi Ti they do not have a clear origin. They were, again, almost definitely built to defend Yi Ti against the long night. Deep One refugees out of The Fishy Lands fleeing from the Long Night showed up and provided the knowledge of the black stone while Yi Ti provided the finance and manpower. After the Darkness fell the remaining Deep Ones were stranded as the Grey Waste, Cannibal Sands and Dry Deep separated them from their homelands. It would seem Yi Ti kicked them out and if any Deep Ones ever made it back tot he Fishy Lands we cannot say for that is beyond the known world. In addition there's one more mention of fish people elsewhere: Squishers I suspect they’re the remnants of those from Battle Isle in The Reach. It’s close to where the First Men came to Westeros, and knowing the first men conflict ensued. This possibly combined with the rising sea sunk their home and they fled east, moving too fast to leave any traces before being wiped out by the First Men in the Crownlands. Even the Wiki suggests the connection. Now there’s a few holes to be found: Why was Asshai abandoned? Maybe it wasn’t, maybe it was sacked in a battle nobody remembers. Maybe a plague swept through. Maybe it's something related to the black magic that the region is known for? Maybe it's boneheaded location couldn't sustain a population? Same with Yeen. Why was it abandoned? Same thoughts as Asshai, but add in the grumpy Sothoryi and wildlife as well (and a possible voodoo curse given that “Every attempt to rebuild or resettle it has ended in horror.”) Why a toad statue? shrugs How’d that black stone fall from the sky in Yi Ti? further shrugging Have the Deep Ones rose again beyond the known world? This we cannot tell as it is beyond the known world. Keyword: known Any possible tie-in to The City of Winged Men? None that I can think of. If you can think of one, let me know. (Batmen, Aquamen, The Bloodstone Emperor's Catwoman wife... how much longer until we get sentient men made of iron?) There’s also speculation as to tie-ins with Patchface, the Deep Ones saving him from drowning for 3 days and somehow giving him the gift of prophecy. But as he went down by Dragonstone, which is on the East Coast of Westeros, so I’ve got nothing. If there were a Deep One settlement somebody would've noticed, right? In conclusion: The earliest civilization (that we can guess at for now. The southern hemisphere may hold older ones still) was a bunch of fish people. They expand along northern Essos conquering the Thousand Islands and Lorath. They touched down on Westeros a little while after the First Men. When the Children Of The Forest blew The Hammer Of The Water and the Deep Ones’ ports and dreams of the East (Westeros) are crushed (or maybe sunk would be a more apt metaphor). The Thousand Islands become little more than beachfront property (unfortunately for the humans there). The Grey King is stranded in Westeros and rules over the Ironborn. Stranded refugees in The Reach flee to the Crownlands and are killed by the First Men cementing the myth of Squishers. The Deep Ones in their homeland recover and turn their attention East and Southward reaching as far as Asshai and Yeen. The Long Night comes, they lose their homeland and are driven East to make a last stand with Yi Ti in The Land Of the Shrykes. Somewhere along the line the Five Forts arise. Most likely during or after the Long Night, acting as The Wall of Essos. Yeen and Asshai are abandoned or taken over and the previous inhabitants eventually fade from memory. Some Deep Ones stay close to the Five Forts and settle in The Land of the Shrykes. And Jimmy Hoffa killed JFK because he faked the moon landing. So, what's your thoughts?
(Spoilers Extended) Fish Men: A theory of The Deep Ones, Oily Black Stone, Mazemakers, Shrykes, the far far east and the far far west.
Joe Momma replied to Joe Momma's topic in The World of Ice and FireThat's why I had them fleeing to the Crownlands, the East Coast. I just didn't consider them to have a prominent impact since they left no obvious traces (namely black stone).