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Peach King

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  1. Killing Robar and Emmon wasn't a crime. They were technically traitors.
  2. If they weren't his biggest supporters that's more reason for them not to support his Regency idea. GRRM didn't drop the ball. Mace's characterization remains consistent. He's a glory hound, but he plays it safe. He agreed to storm Storm's End because all he had to do was lob rocks at it. One can imagine that when Tarly took KL he would have swanned in and claimed all the glory just like he did at Ashford. Cortnay Penrose likely knew they stayed behind at Highgarden, and it wasn't possible to make the journey to Storm's End so quickly The context of him saying this when he asks Guyard and the others why the people who love Renly aren't here at Storm's End when Stannis is asking for its surrender. Yeah, but why take that risk? Stannis is still fairly young. Stannis wouldn't allow a daughter to succeed him over a son considering he considers Rhaenyra a usurper. Ok, I was wrong about that. Still it means Stannis didn't send them an offer at all, probably cause they just supported Renly and he dislikes them. Stannis probably didn't expect they'd join up with the Lannisters because he has no people skills himself. It's still a good idea to send out an offer, considering there would be a disparity in numbers and Stannis and the Vale is still out there. They would have reached out to the Tyrells anyway. Like they actually did. Tyrion doesn't think a Tyrell-Stark alliance is off the table: Bloody fool, thought Tyrion. "Sweet sister," he explained patiently, "offend Tyrell and you offend Redwyne, Tarly, Rowan, and Hightower as well, and perhaps start them wondering whether Robb Stark might not be more accommodating of their desires." (See how Tyrion talks about them - he knows the Tyrells will ally with the person who gives them the most advantages). Neither does Robb: "I should have traded the Kingslayer for Sansa when you first urged it," Robb said as they walked the gallery. "If I'd offered to wed her to the Knight of Flowers, the Tyrells might be ours instead of Joffrey's. I should have thought of that." Refer to the quotes posted. Loras would be Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, Mace would be Hand, and since the council positions aren't already filled unlike with Joffrey Renly could fill it with Tyrells and their bannermen. I can't believe you're trying to argue that supporting Renly had nothing to do with their ambitions at all. Stannis is known to hate gladhanding and doesn't allow corruption. That's why Varys and LF didn't want him on the throne. Maybe Mace feels the same. Hes also very rigid and uncompromising so I doubt the Tyrells thought he would accept such terms. Stannis breathes the law so he would balk at putting his wife aside when she's already given her children. There's also his religion. The Reach is the religious centre of the Faith of the Seven. I doubt the Tyrells would join up with a blasphemer. I changed my mind after talking with frenin. I don't believe he would have punished them. But I don't think it's far off to assume he would limit their power. But since the Tyrells killing the people joining him and arresting his envoys was a recent thing, he might have punished them. Like he said, he'll pardon the lords who fought for Renly, but he won't forget. They would give a damn because Tywin is the most feared man in Westeros. Tywin can make back counter deals and offers and if Tommen escaped like in canon Tywin could even lead rebellions in his name. The Westerlands are very loyal to Tywin, and he has all that gold for buying off people's loyalties and to buy sellswords. Tywin can write people off - like he wrote Jaime and Tyrion off in the books. There's not even a guarantee they're able to get ahold of any hostages. It's still a factor. Hell, Cersei thinks of sending one after Bronn. No, the Riverlands and the Stormlands are at roughly equal distance to King's Landing. And Tywin is in the Riverlands even before Robb marches down. This is why I said it had to be pre-arranged. Renly and Littlefinger might have joked around sometimes but they didn't scheme together. If they did, Renly would have offered Ned the goldcloaks along with his 100 men. Or he would have taken the Red Keep with the help of Littlefinger. But he obviously didn't think of that. So he wouldn't assume Littlefinger would open the gates for him (does he even know Littlefinger has the goldcloaks in his pocket?) People really exaggerate Littlefinger's "friendship" with Renly. The Lannisters being on the throne is better for his purposes than Renly. Actually this tells me Renly's plan wasn't to be king from the get-go. Otherwise he would probably have bribed the goldcloaks himself with promises of titles and honours once he became king. I'm talking about Renly invading with just the Stormlanders here, not a scenario where Renly enlists the help of the Tyrells. But yeah, it's also applicable to the get-Tyrells-onside scenario. He said that all his other knights wanted things of him, castles or honors or riches, but all that Brienne wanted was to die for him. But these lords who flocked to my brother's banners knew him for a usurper. They turned their backs on their rightful king for no better reason than dreams of power and glory, and I have marked them for what they are. Pardoned them, yes. Forgiven. But not forgotten. But they probably didn't hate them so much before the starvation riots. Well no, because Ned is a completely different person who's too honourable for his own good. He wanted to save the very kid who ended up beheading him. Also the child in question has showed clear psychopathic traits. Cersei is the one Renly fears. Dominating and controlling Joffrey is more sadistic and more stupid than crowning himself tbh. Sansa is wanted for treason. Littlefinger is an upjumped lord of a small island. If it's his word against Olenna's Olenna will triumph. Yeah, that's why I'm saying letting Tywin go back to Casterly Rock and just hope he does nothing, wheehee~ is bad. If Renly is king, Casterly Rock would be besieged and Tywin stripped of his castle. If you're going to eradicate House Lannister why would you still put the child whose family you just murdered on the throne??? Unwin Peake's schemes ended as soon as the other people got pissed off. A regency is much more shaky than a kingship because anyone with enough influence and power can be a Regent. Familial bonds matter, but not by much. Alyn Velaryon wasn't Aegon III's Regent even though he was his brother in law. Besides, he could do all that cause no one really cared what he was doing. The Tyrells don't have that good a reputation. They're seen as upjumped stewards. Dontos calls them 'Lannisters with flowers'. They have a good reputation with the smallfolk after they bring them food, sure. Loras is loved. But would they look so good if Joffrey insists he hates them and Renly and they're taking over the court in a clear power grab? Also, this isn't just the Lannisters - its Robert's "son". There's many people still loyal to Robert in the realm. People didn't even hate Joffrey so much even when he was killing random citizens. "His Grace is but a boy. In the streets, it is said that he has evil councillors. The queen has never been known as a friend to the commons, nor is Lord Varys called the Spider out of love . . . but it is you they blame most. Your sister and the eunuch were here when times were better under King Robert, but you were not." Once Joffrey is weaned away from the Lannisters, people will start looking at him as a Baratheon. That must be why people didn't have too much trouble with Renly's usurpation, because Joffrey was basically seen as a Lannister as he was surrounded by them. But that wouldn't be the case here. Doesn't change that Joffrey has an attachment to his mother. Exactly - he wasn't controllable. They couldn't control him to not hurt Margaery. The very situation Olenna feared happening actually happening is riskier than the Purple Wedding. Yeah, but he's guaranteed to chafe under his rule. Just saying "they wouldn't think of that" isn't very persuasive. It's far less likely they would have thought of this scheme at all, since it has never happened before. And if they would think of it, they would remember how in their own history a boy rose up against his Regent uncle and imprisoned him and his kids. Renly can't look into each and every man. There's no one you could fully count on. Unwin Peake couldn't count on Marston Waters. He listened to Aegon III because he seemed like a true king. Goldcloaks are mostly conscripted from the common folk, who are superstitious and likely to believe that disobeying a (especially crowned and anointed) king's order is basically blasphemy. Once Joffrey becomes king, people will be swearing fealty to him. People will be sucking up to him, not his uncle, who is just ex-Regent now and not anyone that important. If we assume Renly's men are Stormlanders, they might even look to Robert's son instead of him. How is that relevant? In this situation it's also Renly asking, because he's the one who needs Mace. Mace doesn't need Renly. In the end Loras is a third son. And Olenna also has a sway over Mace (brow beating him into ending the Cersei-Willas betrothal). Loras was able to convince him of the 'King Renly' scheme because it was low risk, high reward. We can assume that Renly had a hold on those bannermen because he spent time schmoozing with them when he was raising his Tyrell army, not because there was a prior relationship. So that would be irrelevant. You're saying its stupid based on something that no one knows about (I.E Jaime being captured). Besides Jaime's capture is just 1 day before Ned's beheading. And doesn't the same hold true for a situation where Renly is fighting to replace the 'evil councillors'? Cersei declares it a self serving lie and tells Ned to fight him in the name of the king. I'm unsure why the North would even fight for the Lannisters instead of staying neutral. I guess Sansa is still a hostage. Now what's more likely to happen is that because Renly declares he's fighting in Joffrey's name the Starks and Tullys end up his enemies once Joffrey lops Ned's head off. Stannis isn't irrelevant - hes the one people fear the most in ACOK and people know he has a shadow binder. As for Renly, I'm talking about Littlefinger's perspective. He talks about putting Renly on the throne so I'm guessing he thinks that he would take the throne for himself. As for Tywin, he can plot to get rid of Ned quietly. I'm not saying he would be punished. But people would still whisper about it. Well, see, if the end result on how he's perceived is the same I see no reason for him to not declare himself. Didn't you just argue that Renly could just do whatever he liked to Joffrey without people caring? And that's unlikely given the view on "incest abominations" and Stannis' unpopularity. Renly doesn't even have to kill them they could go to the Wall or the Faith. Depends whether Olenne was sincere here - she is power hungry since she wanted Sansa's claim to Winterfell and Renly is a dead traitor so there's reason to doubt her words. Now this is the only valid argument against the 'King Renly' plan - precedent. Renly's self aggrandizing speeches to Stannis aside, his PR team would probably tell him to at least spin a story to justify himself once he sits the throne. The arguments he can adopt I've already stated. That's a bit dishonest. We're told it was because Mace liked the idea of Margaery being queen and his grandson being king. And we know they're cautious. I'll answer your question. Because it wouldn't make sense. If your instinct turns out to be correct, I say you're justified. Same reason I don't hold Melisandre burning people for the war with the Whitewalkers against her. Even if he has no evidence, he thinks it's true. And he turns out to be right. Stannis shouldn't have to fight for a false king. When Tyrion asks him to stop brutalizing Sansa Joffrey says Cersei taught him that fear is better than love. I meant before there were any battles. When Renly was fled and Stannis was gathering swords . There also weren't any terms offered after the Blackwater. I'm not inventing anything. It is fact that the Lannisters didn't offer them any terms. Other have put forward that it was concurrent with the order of attaintment - I choose to believe that was his main reason. As for Stannis, maybe he was still gathering swords and hiring ships. I don't believe he said the "Lannisters have no mercy" as in "if we oppose them the Lannisters will have no mercy." It seems more like "its instrinstic that the Lannisters have no mercy". It's well known the Lannisters are treacherous with their betrayal of Aerys - Renly might fear that Cersei would do away with him even if he swore oaths to her (and he was right). I do think Renly was wrong not to support Stannis. But that was mostly his own fault for declaring so late. But we fundamentally disagree. I think making someone a hostage for their whole entire life along with their entire family is a strategically inferior plan and not much morally different from simply overthrowing them.
  3. Fair point. Stannis speaks contemptuously of Mace: I held Storm's End for him, watching good men starve while Mace Tyrell and Paxter Redwyne feasted within sight of my walls. Your father is an able soldier," King Stannis said. "He defeated my brother once, at Ashford. Mace Tyrell has been pleased to claim the honors for that victory, but Lord Randyll had decided matters before Tyrell ever found the battlefield. He slew Lord Cafferen with that great Valyrian sword of his and sent his head to Aerys." They might not think he'll punish them but he could limit their power.
  4. Ok. You're right. You win. But there's other reasons for the Tyrells not to join up with Stannis. His Florent wife, his greyscale afflicted child, his religion, his witch, the lack of opportunity to rise up in his court.
  5. When do the Tyrells and Redwynes have opportunity to talk about Stannis and and him taking revenge though? The only time we see them is when Stannis has a tiny insignifact army and Renly has already refused his offer and when Stannis is already defeated.
  6. Your last sentence is too disgusting for me to want to continue this conversation, sorry. But a few points: Those had been the worst nights, lying helpless underneath him as he took his pleasure, stinking of wine and grunting like a boar. Usually he rolled off and went to sleep as soon as it was done, and was snoring before his seed could dry upon her thighs. She was always sore afterward, raw between the legs, her breasts painful from the mauling he would give them. The only time he'd ever made her wet was on their wedding night. I was wrong about her getting bruises from the sex. She was just sore and in pain. But she was still getting mauled pretty thoroughly. The bruises she hid from Jaime were from him hitting her. Jaime hates Robert and thinks he should have been the one to kill him. On the way to Winterfell he hates the idea of leaving Cersei alone with Robert because he didn't want Robert taking his "husbandly rights". The scene I'm talking about where Ned has sympathy for her is this one: Ned touched her cheek gently. "Has he done this before? And Robert is not a good man. He condones the murder of children because they're "dragonspawn". He says he'll have Ned's head because Ned disagreed about assassinating Daenerys. Barristan was speaking of the old Robert when he said that (specifically bringing up Robert bringing him a maester.) And even if he wasn't, characters can be wrong. Btw, Cersei only hit Robert because he tried to excuse him hurting her in bed: Once, during the first year of their marriage, Cersei had voiced her displeasure the next day. "You hurt me," she complained. He had the grace to look ashamed. "It was not me, my lady," he said in a sulky sullen tone, like a child caught stealing apple cakes from the kitchen. "It was the wine. I drink too much wine." To wash down his admission, he reached for his horn of ale. As he raised it to his mouth, she smashed her own horn in his face, so hard she chipped a tooth. Years later at a feast, she heard him telling a serving wench how he'd cracked the tooth in a mêlée. Well, our marriage was a mêlée, she reflected, so he did not lie. Thats all. Excuse Robert as much as you want, I'm done.
  7. 1) You're right. 2) Cersei was pretty much raised to be a brood mare by Tywin. It's unlikely she could have refused the marriage. 3) I meant she may have been willing to have children with him. She would always cheat on him. Anyway I'm kinda sick of this topic.
  8. 1) Hm. 2) She wasn't more violent - Robert was explicitly more violent. 3) Cause he was a terrible husband who raped her. Who knows what she would have done if she married Rhaegar. People are really discounting the impact of sexual violence here. She rapes Robert??? When did she rape Robert? Oh so Cersei is lying about being raped now. The scene where she does the very same thing to Taena in an effort to replicate the trauma showed its not her delusion - it happened. Jaime didn't know about it because Cersei hid her bruises from him. Barristan wouldn't know either. He didn't stop. He was too drunk to know what was happening and so Cersei could get away with blowjobs and handjobs. Even Ned is shocked by Robert's behaviour and has sympathy for Cersei. Not only that, he publicly humiliates her and whores around and gropes girls in front of her.
  9. I disagree - I think he is resentful of the fact they fought for Aerys and wants them punished for that reason. Stannis takes things personally, when he learns of Renly's crowning he calls him a thief, and says he stole Storm's End, he moans about Robert years after his death, he resents Ned because he thinks he should have been Hand instead of him, and etc. There's also him trying to catapult traitors during the Siege of Storms End. He's better in canon, he pardoned the lords who joined Renly, and does not invade Craw Island for revenge, but people still think he is harsh and merciless. Don't get what you're saying in the first half, but Ned doesn't call bullshit on the idea of Stannis punishing everyone, so that's something.
  10. Cersei - hits Robert like once, makes fun of him I guess??? Robert - Rapes Cersei for years, hits her which obviously has much more of an effect given his weight/size Yeah, really hard to see the victim here.... And Cersei killed Robert cause he would have killed her and the kids if he found out about the incest. Cersei says it lessened over the years, and she would just jerk him off. Cersei was willing to give Robert a chance until he moaned "Lyanna" to her in bed.
  11. You really had to quote the whole thing? Robert's abuse was a lot more brutal than Cersei's - he raped her and left bruises all over her body. I know that royals have to have heirs, yada yada yada, but Robert wouldn't even stop drinking before he had sex with her, when he knew it was hurting her. And continued even after they had three children. So I can't really blame Cersei for not wanting to have his kids.
  12. “My brother had a gift for inspiring loyalty. Even in his foes. At Summerhall he won three battles in a single day, and brought Lords Grandison and Cafferen back to Storm’s End as prisoners. He hung their banners in the hall as trophies. Cafferen’s white fawns were spotted with blood and Grandison’s sleeping lion was torn near in two. Yet they would sit beneath those banners of a night, drinking and feasting with Robert. He even took them hunting. ‘These men meant to deliver you to Aerys to be burned,’ I told him after I saw them throwing axes in the yard. ‘You should not be putting axes in their hands.’ Robert only laughed. I would have thrown Grandison and Cafferen into a dungeon, but he turned them into friends. For such crimes there must be justice. Starting with Cersei and her abominations. But only starting. I mean to scour that court clean. As Robert should have done, after the Trident. Ser Barristan once told me that the rot in King Aerys’s reign began with Varys. The eunuch should never have been pardoned. No more than the Kingslayer. At the least, Robert should have stripped the white cloak from Jaime and sent him to the Wall, as Lord Stark urged. He listened to Jon Arryn instead. I was still at Storm’s End, under siege and unconsulted
  13. And none of this means they weren't behind the idea of Renly being king. Stannis tells Renly he plans on having a son. Neither he nor his wife is infertile either. Greyscale might not be communicable, but this doesn't change that this is a bad match. And Stannis did make an offer. They refused. While I disagree that the Red Wedding or a variant would happened anyway if Tywin didn't secure the Tyrells, the main point is that Tywin would most probably enter into an alliance with them, which we agree on. They said he repented his sins and that he was a traitor and that he was on the side of the Lannisters. Mace and Margaery might like him but only Loras loved him. The Tyrells were backing him for self serving reasons. Agree to disagree about their motivations here. We're talking about in-world expectations, what we the readers think or don't think does not matter. Everyone thinks Stannis is unforgiving and harsh. And Stannis did want to punish those who only did their duty - lords Cafferen and Grandison. He also has a Florent wife, a rival house with claims on Highgarden. Casterly Rock will rise, and not alone. Robert found it in him to pardon men who served King Aerys, so long as they did him fealty. Stannis is less forgiving. He will not have forgotten the siege of Storm's End, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dare not. Every man who fought beneath the dragon banner or rose with Balon Greyjoy will have good cause to fear. Seat Stannis on the Iron Throne and I promise you, the realm will bleed. Tywin is not going to think it's fair game if the Tyrells take over and plant themselves in KL. Arya did, so did Euron. Renly's popularity is not absolute. Well no. At this point Tywin has two armies in the field. If he learns about Renly raising an army, Tywin can race back to KL to dash him beneath the walls. Nor can Renly just tell people to open the gates. It has to be arranged beforehand. We know the Antler men who were planning to open the gates for Stannis were found out and executed. Renly didn't get his army because they were anti-Lannister. He got his army because he promised them wealth and lands and glory. The Tyrell marriage must also have given them the courage to declare (Stannis said the bolder ones declared for Renly). It's doubtful they would fight to put a Lannister on the throne anyway, or to depose all of the Lannisters. And they mostly only began to hate them in earnest when they were starving and the Lannisters were feasting. Cersei they don't mind too much because she was queen when it was peaceful under Robert, Tyrion they hate, Joffrey was mostly an unknown. Why would they take over KL and do these things that's guaranteed to make Joffrey hate them and still put him on the throne. Cersei would rather kill herself. Basically, there is no scenario where they take charge as Joffrey's regent and not expect him to hate them and to take his revenge. Which is why its just better to get rid of all the Lannisters anyway. That didn't happen, so it's a non argument. They don't just need an army, they need someone with a claim to the throne. If Renly declares himself king, he can fight the Lannisters in the field and hopefully destroy them. If the Lannisters flee, they cannot send Faceless Men after him, they have nothing to bargain with, and Casterly Rock would be besieged. Nor do there seem to be people willing to help them with a Lannister restoration like the Targs. If Renly makes himself Joffrey's regent and keeps the Lannisters alive, he's opening himself up to potential backstabbings and skullduggery from all directions. Joffrey loudly proclaims he doesn't need his uncle to save him when Renly makes his declaration. Renly fights the Lannisters with the help of the Tyrells, he takes over court, filling the council with Tyrells. He shuts Joffrey up with some threats. Margaery is betrothed to Joffrey. Unwin Peake had overreached himself. Thaddeus Rowan and Manfryd Mooton were outraged that he had not seen fit to consult them; matters of such import rightly belonged to the council of regents. Lady Arryn sent a waspish note from the Vale. Kermit Tully declared the betrothal “presumptuous.” Ben Blackwood questioned the haste of it; Aegon should have been allowed half a year at least to mourn his little queen. A curt missive arrived from Cregan Stark in Winterfell, suggesting that the North might look with disfavor on such a match. Even Grand Maester Munkun began to waver. “Lady Myrielle is a delightful girl, and I have no doubt that she would make a splendid queen,” he told the Hand, “but we must be concerned with appearances, my lord. We who have the honor of serving with your lordship know that you love His Grace as if he were your own son, and do all you do for him and for the realm, but others may imply that you chose your daughter for more ignoble reasons…for power, or the glory of House Peake.” Just like with Peake, people are angry, seeing it as the Tyrells overreaching themselves. They're already seen as "upjumped stewards". Since Joffrey is making too much noise, he's kept locked up. People begin to whisper. Maybe the Houses are concerned about Robert's "son". They call for a Great Council. They come to KL. They take over. Jaeherys I, Aegon III, Joffrey, all had people listen to them over their regents. Jaeherys I had the KG backing him over the established regents. Aegon III had Marston Waters listen to his orders when Unwin Peake was having his coup. Ilyn Payne and the Goldcloaks follow Joffrey's order to execute Ned even though it contradicts the wishes of Cersei, the legal regent. Joffrey is totally a momma's boy. Whenever he is in danger he calls out for his mother. They killed Joffrey because they didn't think he would be as controllable as Tommen. And Joffrey hates Renly. He won't accept being ruled over by him. Doesn't seem like the Tyrells inspire much diehard loyalty - look at all the Reachmen turning to Stannis after Renly's death instead of following Tarly. No one really knows how Joffrey will turn out. He could be ruthless, kind, charismatic, smart - and it's this unknown quality which really makes Joffrey a danger. There's also a certain belief in "divine right" in Westeros: "I was taught that good men must fight evil in this world, and Renly's death was evil beyond all doubt. Yet I was also taught that the gods make kings, not the swords of men. If Stannis is our rightful king—" The superstitious rank and file might be motivated by religious beliefs to obey the king's orders. The only Kingsguard to disobey the king, Jaime, is reviled. There's plenty of textual evidence that they crave power and overreach themselves. Kevan was at his wits end because the Tyrells kept demanding more and more. Mace already had a custom Hand chair made. If they weigh the advantages, they would see that a clean transfer to the Lannisters would be much better. At that point no one knew what Stannis was doing. It was just between the Lannisters and the Starks. If the Tyrells jump in, they'd expect Renly to lay down as well. He can't fight a war all by himself. We know how the Tyrells treat their friends based on how they treated Sansa - they used and dumped her. She was a liability once she could no longer give them Winterfell. There is absolutely no reason for the Starks to fight for the Lannisters. Ned knows about the incest, he knows Cersei killed Robert, he thinks they tried to kill Bran, he thinks they killed Jon Arryn, they murdered his household - the list goes on. And the Lannisters are not going to restore Ned as Lord, the plan was for him to take the black. He knows Ned is honour bound, and he suggests killing children and disregarding legality? Even if he was serious, no it's not a good idea for Ned. Tywin would fight him. Stannis would fight him. Renly would fight him. And Ned would be caught in the crossfire. Just like how everyone assumed Unwin Peake killed Jaehaera. Because there was only one person who that action benefited - him. So the hypothetical situation is that Renly takes over the court. Fights and kills Stannis in the name of the king, a king who insists that Renly looking out for his best interests is a lie. Stacks the council with his friends. The very same king who keeps insisting that he doesn't need Renly's help and that he hates Renly mysteriously dies.His brother is sent to the Faith (or insists he doesn't want to go and gets conked). Renly is very conveniently king. Just like in FAB, people would know what's going on. Well no one really seemed to care about him potentially killing Stannis. GRRM even said it would be a stretch to see him as a kinslayer. And Renly can spin a narrative to justify himself once he takes the throne. He already believes the Lannisters murdered Ned Stark. He could further claim they killed Robert and Jon Arryn and that they were tyrants - the Vale already believes this, and the smallfolk uniformly hate the Lannisters in ACOK. There's also the incest story. Incest is seen as an abomination. If Renly takes the city like the Tyrells did, bringing food, he could be seen as a saviour. Everyone knows about Stannis' religion because he acknowledges the Lord of Light in the letters he sent out, and he has a red witch and was burning places of worship. Bam, Renly says Stannis is unfit to rule because of his foreign religion. It wasn't the only course. It's the course that made the most sense. Making yourself regent to a king who despises you is frankly stupid. As for just plain rebellion, Tywin has two large armies in the field that can catch him beneath the walls. Securing the Tyrells, the biggest alliance that can be made, made sense, and they probably won't be tempted by a half baked plan. Why didn't the rebels put Viserys on the throne and install a council of regents? Robert didn't have to be king! I do think Cersei did what she had to do when she seized the Regency. Ned would have let the truth out and she would have been executed if she did otherwise. She was also justified in killing/trying to kill Robert, Renly and Stannis - Robert abused her, and Renly and Stannis are dangers to her children. Maegor didn't have to usurp because his life wasn't in danger. As for the Greens, depends, Daemon is ruthless enough to kill the heirs anyway, but he probably wouldn't. Meanwhile we have actual confirmation that Cersei and Joffrey did want to strip the Baratheon bros of their power/kill them. As for Daemon Blackfyre, he was xenophobic and sexist - his argument was that the court was filled with Dornishmen and women. Not very sympathetic. So Stannis was just supposed to say the king was a bastard born of incest and then stay put in Dragonstone. And hope he isn't executed for treason. Right... Stannis had every right to rebel. He does - he parrots Cersei's beliefs that cruelty is strength. When he stabs himself on the throne he cries out for Cersei. When Tyrion slaps him he says he wants Cersei. Stannis offered Renly terms before there was a battle. Catelyn offered Renly terms and Renly in turn offered her terms. Tyrion offered the Dornish terms. But no one says to write to Stannis or Renly "Swear fealty to House Lannister and you will have a place on the Council and an advantageous marriage". Renly says if Cersei comes to power, it would be "too late, for the both of us". He doesn't have to support Ned. This isn't predicated on him supporting Ned.
  14. But he didn't even come for the wedding. That probably means he can't travel long distances. Stannis is only 34. Stannis might even start having children out of spite. The Tyrells might still thinks Shireen's infectious - people like Val think she would be better off dead. Joining up with the Lannisters is just a much better alliance. You're right, I misremembered. They only did away with Robb because he was fighting a losing war. They're opportunists and without the Tyrells now the Lannisters will be on the losing side. Nor do the Tyrells know about the broken betrothal or have any reason to expect there to be a Red Wedding. Again, if the Tyrells loved Renly so much they wouldn't have basically made his whole legacy a lie to make him more palatable to the Lannisters. 2 months pass between Renly's death and the incident with Tarly killing the soldiers. More than enough time for a correspondence with Mace. If Tarly was acting independently that means he was deeply hurting the chances of a Tyrell alliance with Stannis. He could have been punished. Catelyn thinks he is without mercy. Everyone must know the story of Davos and his fingers. People don't tend to think Stannis is a very forgiving man. Tywin did exactly that in A Game of Thrones. Not to mention there's always Faceless men. The random people I'm talking about are the Tyrells. If Renly tries to take over Joffrey's regency for his own good, Joffrey is pretty much guaranteed to call him a liar, and the Lannisters are guaranteed to make sure he doesn't fall into his hands. Not a given, no, but consider how Aegon III tossed Gaemon Palehair aside as soon as Viserys I came back. The Tyrells have only 3 years. The Lannisters would rather go down fighting. And Joffrey is pretty much guaranteed to hate them after this. Marrying the (adult) Lannisters while taking over the government is just silly.They can expect to find poison in their food. Cregan Stark just blundered in from the North and started throwing his weight around in a Dance of Dragons. Why would it be revealed? No one even suspects the Tyrells were behind it. And the 'King Renly' plan was smart. They had the biggest army, they were only stopped by a shadow baby. But there's always a risk. People aren't a monolith. If Joffrey turned out to be charismatic and if he commands attention, he may have won men over to his side. Aegon III and Daeron I and Jaeherys 1 could make decisions even before they were 16. There are also divided loyalties, like the goldcloaks. They are the crown's men. The Kingsguard are also loyal to the crown. And to be sure, once Joffrey reaches 16, he can order people about and he can arrange his own court. I found a precedent for someone rising up against their regent and imprisoning them once they reached the age of majority because they limited their power too much. [11]After Lord Rickon Stark died in 121 AC, his brother Bennard served as regent for Rickon's son Lord Cregan Stark, until his coming of age in 124 AC. Bennard was slow to surrender his power to his nephew, and Cregan chafed at the limits imposed on him. In 126 AC, Lord Cregan rose up against his uncle, imprisoned Bennard and his sons, and took the rule of the north into his own hands.[11] Yeah they don't want Renly as king, they want Margaery as queen. Marrying Margaery to Joffrey straight away is just better than making Renly regent and then forcing Joffrey to marry Margaery. It's not really stupid or risky. They would have pretty much won without the shadow baby. 'King Renly' was a better idea at that time than 'King Joffrey' - because Renly was willing to fill his court with Tyrells. Mace would get to be Hand, but in Joffrey's government Tywin would be Hand. He basically told Ned to marry his children to incest bastards and pass over the true heir - I don't think he was sincere at all. No it wouldn't lol. If the heirs started dying magically anyone would know it was Renly who killed them. It would be obvious. Like how everyone assumed Richard III killed the princes in the tower. Practically no one hates Renly for being a usurper. It's less strategically sound. Morally, it's not any better. And the Tyrells are right there, the ones who took control of the government over his wishes. Robb rebelled against Joffrey, but Tywin sfill offered him terms. Tywin just doesn't offer Stannis or Renly terms at all. No indication except him saying the Lannisters have no mercy and that Cersei would oppose them.
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