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Peach King

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  1. Peach King

    Renly was a dummy

    OK you're right. He doesn't have a 100 men at the ready. But it does seem unrealistic that he could just convince these guys with "Hey y'all let's raise our arms against the Queen and grab her kids in an action that would no doubt be viewed as treasonous just cause I said so!" and they'd simply accept, if there wasn't prior planning. Or scheming. Or maybe they just love him that much, and would do anything for him.
  2. Peach King

    Renly was a dummy

    Points are just being rehashed so - I wanna ask why Renly would have a 100 men at the ready if he wasn't planning something? He was certainly thinking of doing something, or otherwise expecting something to happen.
  3. Peach King

    Renly was a dummy

    Looks like we're not convincing the other. Renly had a number of options besides declaring himself king - less attractive options sure, but options nonetheless. Renly wanted the Lannisters gone. But he jumped at the chance of the crown. Doesn't matter what Ned did, just what Renly would think he would do. I just want to say there's no way Robert would set aside the children or Cersei, considering: Tywin being pissed off Cersei being pissed off The crown Prince being pissed off The losses to the treasury Robert setting aside his wife just because causing a dangerous precedent - what's saying he wouldn't do that to Margaery too The danger to Margaery and her kids (via assassination) due to pissed off Lannisters Vassals and lords being pissed off The reputation it would bring the Tyrells, who are all about good public relations The power it would bring the Lannisters, who would look like the injured party The possibility of war Etc etc so on and so forth Which Mace wouldn't not be aware of. And you're completely off the point with the Ned thing here - I'm not talking him suspecting about the incest, I'm talking about him suspecting Renly would be up to no good. OK. GRRM says Robert was fond of the boy, and loved him in a way. Renly could have been working on his own to get proof like Ned was. We didn’t hear about Pycelle investigating Robert’s bastards either, but he knows about the incest. All of the Small Council knew except for Barristan who wasn't exactly bright. If Renly knew of the incest, he would be sitting on it until Robert falls for Margaery which would ensure Renly gets even more influence in court, as the Tyrells are his allies. However that plan fell apart because Robert died. I just don't think Renly, who's shown to be an able politician, and Mace, who has been accumulating both soft and hard power without any heavy losses throughout the series, would bank it all on such a half baked plan. But agree to disagree. The evidence is speculative but for speculation it's pretty solid.
  4. Peach King

    Renly was a dummy

    No, because there are a number of other options for Renly which doesn't mean declaring himself king. And if we're taking everything at face value now - there's also the speech he makes to Catelyn about how he'll be the best king, Stannis be damned. Catelyn also pleads with him and Stannis to deal with the Lannisters first and they ignore her. Renly also makes a pretty telling remark here - "He had sworn to protect Robert's children". So he knew his incest accusations would be for naught. Ned did not suspect anything when Renly offered him his swords. However he would probably suspect something of Renly if he told him of the incest. What about Mace? He gets a pretty raw deal with 3 children still in the way of the throne. Why would he agree to whore out his precious daughter for something like that? Not to mention the instability it would bring to the kingdom. Cersei is shown to be hilariously wrong several times. And we don't know Stannis' reaction as he did not get a chance to say anything about it, because the conversation had already moved on. That is debatable on how much Renly knew. Wasn't Robert dying at the time? He and Renly got along, they went hunting together and actually had a working relationship unlike Stannis. I don't see why he wouldn't believe him, unlike with Stannis who would look like he was angling for the throne, Renly would only be doing his good duty if he told his brother and would be amply rewarded.
  5. Peach King

    Renly was a dummy

    So we agree Renly's main reason for going to war is not Lannister related. The question was why would Renly not tell Ned if he knew of the incest? And I gave the reason why. Ned might not let Renly up jump Stannis, but he might think that Renly was planning on usurping/killing his nephews and niece. And Ned being the good guy he is would not agree or like that. So Renly is playing it safe here. This is a hypothetical situation. It doesn't have to be in the text. I am outlining a plan Renly might have in mind if he knew of the incest. Cersei's fears are unfounded. OK - Cersei was totally justified in wanting to get rid of Renly since he posed a danger to her and her kids. As you said they could have spied on Cersei and Jaime, or even asked the maids for some bedsheets or something. That along with Edric is enough. And Stannis didn't tell Robert because he didn't think he would believe him, especially since he was the heir. Renly has a much greater chance of succeeding, having a bit more cordial relationship with his brother. Plus Robert has been wanting to get rid of Cersei for ages.
  6. Peach King

    Renly was a dummy

    Saving your own ass and attempting a coup are two very different things. Wanting to be safe is not self serving. And the text does not say Renly was refused because he looked self-serving, not at all. He was refused because the oh so honourable Ned did not want to do something so drastic. Renly is hedging his bets here - going for the safer option first. And when it was clear Ned wasn't going to budge he left the crazy man. Someone did say Renly's main motivation for rebelling was the Lannisters. Again I did not say anything about laziness or bad battle strategies. If he was that terrified it had to come from somewhere. They may dislike each other but Cersei put on a veneer of being charming in public. And how would Renly know Stannis knew about his plan, or that others were even aware of it? And it's not possible for Margaery's children to be the heirs while Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella are still alive. He sure went through a whole lot of trouble to procure him then. Even killed an innocent man. And Renly does not need to work with Jon Arryn or Stannis for proofs - he can ask Robert to spy on them, bribe a housekeeper, any number of things. That along with Edric (and perhaps Gendry whom Renly would definitely see on his visits to Tobho Mott) would convince Robert. Robert also got along with Renly better and would be more inclined to believe him. As I said there is no guarantee. Why would he just marry a woman on his brother's behest if he could just sleep with her? He was already sleeping with a bunch of women. And a number of noble women would be lining up to marry Robert. Hell Robert might even decide to stay unattached. If he was already in love with Margaery however he would decide to marry her. That is why the plan is bed then wed. The Lyanna thing is just icing on the cake.
  7. Peach King

    Renly was a dummy

    No he does not look self serving - Ned was against the plan because he did not want to drag frightened children from their beds in the night, not because it looked like Renly was trying to take advantage of the situation to take power. Which he would assume is the case if Renly told him of the incest. It doesn't matter if he hates the Lannisters, Ned is an honourable man and he does not really trust Renly either. I'm just saying if he's so motivated because of his hatred for Lannisters he would have rushed to KL to put their heads upon spikes. But he instead seems to be having a lot of fun. Concede with you on the prophecy point but - Why doesn't Cersei mention Renly then? She makes a vague sentence about being set aside, that doesn't mean she's aware of Renly's plans. She seems to be bemoaning her husband's behaviour, not aware of some conspiracy surrounding her. And why is Renly so sure Cersei would kill him, does he think she's that much of a psychopath? On the other hand if Cersei had her life in danger because of Renly she would have a very good reason to kill him. I'm saying Renly might have had the same idea as Littlefinger - to put himself on the throne. I'm not saying he would follow Littlefinger's plan to a T. Stannis seemed to think he was enough proof. And no he would not, he would not have any guarantee Robert would choose Margaery so he needed her to look like the best candidate first - hence asking Ned if she looked like Lyanna.
  8. Peach King

    Renly was a dummy

    I'm not saying he's incompetent. Just that all those actions are linked to wanting glory/fame which is why he doesn't want to "cheat" since that would look bad in the history books. Sure it's a factor, but then why does he take so long in getting to King's Landing? He sure took his sweet time. Already addressed this. At that point of time it was not in Renly's interests to reveal that he knew all along to Ned. Ned wouldn't trust him. It would be very convenient if suddenly the Lannister children were bastards when Stannis was absent and Renly was the next heir claimant. So Renly doesn't bring it up. If Renly knew of the incest, this could have been his plan: Make Ned seize Cersei's kids so he takes the brunt of Tywin and Cersei's wrath, in the meanwhile prepare his own little coup. Littlefinger almost describes the same scenario to Ned - reveal the incest, eliminate Stannis, Renly on throne. But Ned doesn't take his offer so Renly has no choice but to flee. Or it could even be declaring himself king was his third choice and he would be fine with Ned holding power for the time being. The thing is he couldn't have just told Ned. The plan just had 0 chance of succeeding. This could just be because she didn't know the full extent of Renly's plans. Or even that she knew at all, she is obsessed with the prophecy after all. Renly only has to think she knows, and that could be why he is so fearful for his life. Edric was living with him, that's more than enough proof.
  9. Peach King

    Renly was a dummy

    Talking about the books though. Maybe i should accept the thread title.
  10. Peach King

    Renly was a dummy

    GRRM makes mention of it to prove a point. "Knights of summer". "Boys playing at war". The way he doesn't want to strike before dawn because it'll be unchivalrous. How his battle plan is simply sending Loras in a charge against the rising sun. All of it is to strike home that Renly is young and a glory seeker. To say he was just protecting himself is dishonest. I am giving you reasons why he might not have told his brothers. You're simply saying - he would have if he knew. OK but why? When has Renly ever been held up as some paragon of human virtue? So let's all agree that Renly is really stupid. Divorce only happened like 4 times in the past and it caused trouble a lot of those times. And his plan is simply.... Lyanna look-alike? Yeah but Renly moved against her first, so she absolutely deserves to retaliate. What would Renly have done differently if he knew though
  11. Peach King

    Renly was a dummy

    Hypothetically. In a situation where Renly knew of the incest: He could have sent ravens to Stannis. He didn't even think of it as an option. Supporting Robb.. OK yeah. You cannot compare Stannis and Robb to Renly. Stannis is doing his duty, and Robb does not want the Iron Throne, he is rebelling against the Lannisters for killing his father. How does Renly have a right to the throne? He doesn't. So Cersei would try to kill him merely because she doesn't like him? Has Renly seen Cersei acting like a psychopath in the past? All he knows is she's a nasty and shrewish woman, not that she's evil. Renly doesn't have to know that Cersei knows. He just has to think she does. If he knew her secret, she'd have a legitimate reason to want him dead. With her brother? And you think Ned wouldn't make the connection? That's a big risk. Here you go: "Theres another reason telling Ned the truth would not bode well for Renly, because there's no guarantee that Ned will believe him. He may view it as Renly's poor attempt at a coup. Ned has all the power, and Renly is trying to both ingratiate himself to Ned and trying to see if Ned would actually use the political power given to him. But because Ned remains honorable, Renly decided that the path to the throne did not lie with him and chose to escape. " Renly did not know that Ned knew about the incest, all he knew at that point that Ned was against the Lannisters. So he suggests a "safe" plan: get rid of Cersei and her men and ensure that Joffrey is under Baratheon/Stark "protection", so he can get influence and power. He might have revealed the incest afterwards, when his position in KingsLanding would be secure and Lannisters were under control. It could even be he doesn't plan on amassing power or anything, and was fine with Ned being Regent. However he could not have just told Ned without arousing suspicion. You're really whitewashing Renly right now. I don't hate Renly. But he did not treat Brienne with respect - he was using her as a meatshield. Renly didn't have a choice about letting her into the Rainbow Guard because its her reward for winning the Tourney. He did not have to do that. He could have: 1. Expressed surprise first 2. Agreed with the incest claims 3. Mowed down Stannis and the Lannisters As you say it would only help him to agree with the allegations. Yet he does not. Even if Joffrey is not viewed as a monster, he is controlled by the Lannisters whom the knights and lords dislike. The very fact they so easily follow Renly and Stannis is a proof of their dislike. In all honesty they don't even have to be loathed, the important thing is they're more hated than Stannis. As you said, as far as most people knew, Joffrey was a Baratheon. The Stormlords should've supported him over both Stannis and Renly. But even after Renly was killed, the Stormlords would rather support Stannis than Joffrey. Here's why Renly would lie. Renly mostly needs to make his claim against Stannis at this point because he needs to unite the opposition against the Lannisters. He doesn't need to justify his opposition to Joffrey nearly as much as the one against Stannis, whom he's facing on the field right now. The people have already committed to overthrowing Cersei's children, they are divided into pro-Stannis and pro-Renly factions, and so the question will be who they will continue to support against the Lannisters. The Reach lords are already in open rebellion. None will follow Joffrey over Renly as he no doubt is aware of, but if they now discover that they can do both, oppose Joffrey and still follow (or publically appear to follow) Robert's lawful succession, it might cause them to consider Stannis.The Stormlords are Renly's to an extent, but its not guaranteed they'll back him. A number of them did consider going over to Stannis at the start but choose to side with Renly, so it's known loyalties can be changed. Westerosi society is built around primogeniture laws. What Renly is doing is very destabilizing, and those lords and knights mostly follow him because he looks like their best ticket to glory and riches. Even still, if they publicly support Renly's claim, its in their vested interest to uphold the right of rule by inheritance as they all draw their own power from it. Otherwise whose to say their younger brothers and cousins won't fuck them over on the basis of being more handsome, more popular, more charming? Stannis has a chance of looking like the more attractive option if he's not one of two usurpers, but Robert's rightful heir as it won't lead to succession crises in future. To reiterate what I said: Joffrey being the rightful king means Stannis and Renly are both traitors. So why not support the cool and charismatic traitor instead of the dour and harsh one? That's Renly's entire appeal. Why is Renly popular and why is everyone following him? Because he puts on the image of being a good king - kind, generous, strong. Renly is trying to make himself the claimant most suited to the throne. That could be a reason he would undermine Stannis, to portray him as the worse deal and to uphold his own image. If Renly reveals he knew about the incest, only he is being traitorous however. So he is left looking really bad. He does not look like the best claimant to the throne anymore. It would look like he cares enough about primogeniture laws to rebel against Joffrey but not enough to support his elder brother. It would seem like he's some opportunistic lord rather than the saviour of the realm from the scummy Lannisters. If Renly loses his image, he would lose his entire claim to the throne, as he bases it on entirely on being well liked instead of who has the better claim. Now who is going to like Renly? He has neither the law or personal popularity on his side. Stannis is the heir, Renly is a power hungry traitor, ergo they might follow Stannis instead of Renly. Which is not good for Renly. Stannis does get support from houses after he sends out his letters - specifically from the Crown lands. So it can't be said that no one would support Stannis anywaaay. Renly's acknowledgement of the twincest might just be the tipping stone in his favour. Think of it this way: If Renly lies It's 2 usurpers, (both on equal grounds, but one looks better) against the Lannisters - whom everyone has already rebelled against and hate If Renly tells the truth It's a usurper (looks bad) and the rightful king (looks good) against the Lannisters (unpopular bastards) Yes Stannis took a long time on Dragonstone. That doesn't mean Renly had to overthrow him. If he told Ned about the incest then Ned might have thought that Renly was lying and planning to usurp and kill his nephews and niece. Ned is known to be against killing children and is all about "MUH HONOR" so he wouldn't have supported Renly. Or Renly might even have thought that Ned would tell Cersei in an effort to keep her kids safe as Ned is wont to do, that stand-up guy.. Uh yes he laughs in Stannis' face and mocks him. That doesn't mean he's happy about it. He is not excited. He makes mention of it, and then dismisses it and immediately changes the subject and talks about his good qualities. I am not a Stannis fan. I am just trying to make sense of Renly's actions with his dumb plan of of marrying Margaery to Robert without knowledge of the incest. So now I know--he and Mace are both knuckleheads. And Mace is an abysmal father. OK then. I don't see why you have to take this so personally, It's just a discussion. And Renly is a fictional character. I do like him a lot I'm just looking at his motives and shit not trying to vilify him. Yes he did count on the Dornish support, he mentions it to Catelyn. My point here is are those lords from history as powerful as Mace who is Lord Paramount of the Reach, which is about as much power you can get without being king. Also please give me in-universe examples of Lords Paramount marrying their daughters to Kings when the previous heirs are still intact. IRL follows a different set of rules to Westeros. How about all the other marriage options which doesn't threaten the crown or her future or have a failure rate of 99.89%? All it would grant them is a short period of royal favour followed by a disastrous falling out. Yeah so- they win the war easily with Renly which means Mace is not reckless for declaring for him. I just don't see how they would have pulled it off. And Mace is shown as a caring father so it contradicts the text. And why doesn't Mace just marry Margaery to Joffrey instead of all this elaborate scheming and plotting :? (And a late point but even if Joffrey only becomes king when Robert dies, Robert's drinking habits would lead him into the grave sooner or later. The entire thing is very low gain/high risk.)
  12. Peach King

    Renly was a dummy

    Oh yeah Renly definitely wanted some Lannister payback, but that's not his primary motivation. "Look at me I'm a king!" remember? Though I think he wanted acclaim more than power. What if he's just a sneaky guy... Who wants to help his lover's family and himself over his brothers. Not that I blame him (they suck). If he reveals the incest early, the Margaery plot doesn't go through, and so does Renly's gateway to a faboo life. Oh sorry, I read that wrong. Sure she can. Cersei is literally mentally ill. "Put aside" is very vague anyways. And there's another quote where GRRM says it's unheard of. Even though I can't find it right now. Renly wasn't being hunted down by big bad Cersei. He and Stannis started sniffing around first and she felt threatened. You may be right though, and he did not know. I am certainly being swayed by this thread.
  13. Peach King

    Renly was a dummy

    Alright.... It wasn't like that was his only choice. He could have supported Stannis, supported Robb, spent his days in hiding, left Westeros. Why is Renly so sure Cersei would want him dead? Renly having knowledge of the incest would make Cersei fear for her life and that of her children. I thought about it and edited my answer, with more reasons why Renly wouldn't reveal the truth to Ned. I wouldn't trust Renly either...but the point is Renly couldn't have just told Ned of the incest without Ned figuring out the rest. Never mind the morality of it, it shows Renly is capable of being deceptive and putting on false appearances. If Renly is aware that the incest accusations would strengthen his claim, why doesn't he agree with Stannis? Be all "That's great news Stannis. No one likes you anyway so I get to be king YAY". Then steamroll him and the Lannisters. It seems like he wants to undermine Stannis. It could be because he views him as the bigger threat. Renly is usurping a monster, two kids, and a false claimant to the throne. The Lannisters are also hated, so it's not like anyone will care about taking up arms against them. Even if Stannis is unpopular, if he is the heir, that changes a lot. Renly is passing off his act of usurpation as being a rehash of Robert's Rebellion, the glorious and heroic King (in his mind) overthrowing the other Kings who would bring destruction to the realm. But how would these young lords and knights look if they're actually overthrowing the rightful king Stannis, who is doing it out of a sense of duty or honour, instead of being a usurper like Renly? Renly says he doesn't buy the incest, and is amused. He dismisses Stannis' claims,and no one else seems to buy it either. I don't see how he's happy about the news either. He makes a casual mention of it maybe being true, then brushes it off with "YEAH WELL I'LL BE THE BETTER KING ANYWAYS" and boils it down to their personal qualities. And Catelyn is wavering yet. Renly might have counted on her support like he counted on the Dornish. No I've not read a lot of history. But Mace is Lord Paramount over the Reach, are those other Lords that powerful? Margaery is one of House Tyrell's most valuable assets, she has a sizable number of much better marriage prospects than an Anne Boleyn hack job. There are safer ways to gain influence. And Olenna mentions it's the throne that Mace wants. Renly had overwhelming support and looked to be the best claimant out of the 5 Kings. Nothing short of magic would have stopped him. And I would argue Mace's whole war strategy during Robert's Rebellion was structured on being cautious. Batter Storm's End without actually battling anyone, so he doesn't lose men, or have major repercussions if either side wins. And he doesn't. He's been able to jump from Renly to Joffrey to Tommen without losing much in the process, which is a credit in his favour. He also only agreed to marry Margaery to Joffrey on the condition that Loras was made Kingsguard, whom he figured was sufficient protection. Mace loves his children - he immediately abandons his siege and races to King's Landing with an army when he hears Margaery has been arrested. Doesn't Tywin have a fearsome reputation? I doubt Mace would risk his ire. He doesn't have a habit of making enemies out of Great Houses without worthwhile reason. There is no way he is going to just throw Margaery at Robert when there's a chance of her getting hurt and the plan having so many liabilities. Honestly, the whole thing hinges on Mace being dumber than a doorknob , I know he's an oaf - but this much? Margaery would look the best out of all available contestants. Robert was already sleeping with a number of women. If she looks like Lyanna AND is sleeping with Robert, she's perfect wife material. Robert only did that because the last king was a tyrant. He's had an opportunity to get rid of Cersei for 15 years and so far he hasn't, I don't know why Renly and Mace would think he suddenly would. Unless their whole plan was just "LYANNA" . Renly also had Edric Storm living with him in Storm's End, and he and Loras got their amour done at Tobho Mott's, where Gendry works. If Renly is smart (which I think he is), surely he (or Loras) would have noticed a kid looking exactly like himself, as Gendry does according to Brienne, and figured he's one of Robert's bastards. Surely he would contrast the Lannister bastards with Edric and made the whole Baratheon = black of hair connection. I must say you're almost half convincing me though.
  14. Peach King

    Renly was a dummy

    You telling me Renly's only reason to declare himself king was to be safe? He literally makes an entire speech about how great and awesome he is to Catelyn. Yeah? My point stands. And I edited my post so you can check it out. He'd be really stupid to not figure out the parentage after Renly just told him "BTW Jaime and Cersei are fucking so arrest her immediately" No need to be rude. Cersei is an unreliable narrator. GRRM is not, and he himself says divorces are practically non existent.
  15. Peach King

    Renly was a dummy

    It's not clear what Renly was thinking then. I agree he was acting somewhat out of self-preservation but who knows if he wanted the crown for himself too after Ned acted as Regent? Even Littlefinger voices this idea to Ned. Renly certainly makes it seem like he wanted to be king all along in ACOK. Well, theres another reason telling Ned the truth would not bode well for Renly, because there's no guarantee that Ned will believe him. He may view it as Renly's poor attempt at a coup. Ned has all the power, and Renly is trying to both ingratiate himself to Ned and trying to see if Ned would actually use the political power given to him. But because Ned remains stalwartly honorable, Renly decided that the path to the throne did not lie with him and chose to escape. Ned is not a stupid man, despite popular opinion. He'd put two and two together, Cersei and Jaime + fucking = Cersei's kids are not Robert's. There is that time he secretly thought Brienne was absurd behind her back, while acting cordial in front of her. He absolutely had a reason to lie. Catelyn was listening in, so are the Reach Lords. Who knows if he lost her support and that of the North and the Riverlands? He's making Stannis look like a self interested liar, and putting them on the same level. The truth of Joffrey's parentage only helps Stannis and hurts Renly. Even if Mace wanted it, Robert isn't just going to make Margaery his queen without good reason. Looking pretty's not enough. He's had mistresses for years, what makes this one special? Mace is a cautious man and unless he was sure she's going to be queen he's not going to go through with it. There's also the fact that if they do succeed somehow (How? Were they just banking on Margaery looking like Lyanna? Falsely accuse Cersei of treason?) when Joffrey comes of age he's going to do something bad. You think he's not going to hold a grudge against the Tyrells for kicking his mother out? And Tywin? The Queen holds no political power, she only exercises it through her husband and children. Margaery's reign would be short and possibly end disastrously for the Tyrells. The Lyanna thing was so that Margaery would be the most attractive option. If Robert gets rid of Cersei, all the Lords would be clamoring for their daughters to marry him. Margaery has to get there first. Cersei is delusional and paranoid, she's fixated on the prophecy of a younger and more beautiful queen so she's scared of being replaced. Robert's not going to divorce her if the Lannisters owned a sizable chunk of the Iron Throne's debt, Jaime was about to be named Warden of the East, and Robert Arryn was going to be sent to Casterly Rock. It would be a huge political scandal and Robert wouldn't risk Tywin's wrath- unless, of course, the queen had committed some horrible crime. And quoting GRRM: "Divorce is pretty much unheard of (In Westeros)". Actually it'd be great if you could convince me (not being sarcastic) because I don't want it to be true.
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