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Thomaerys Velaryon
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Posts posted by Thomaerys Velaryon
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3 hours ago, direpupy said:
Is this what you where looking for?
No but it is a good quote too. Thinking about it now, we still don't know much about how the Valyrian Freehold was organised.
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@Nittanian Where would you put the Valyrian mages ? Their own category, or more akin to firemages or to pyromancers ?
QuoteOf these, some argue that it was the curse of Garin the Great at last coming to fruition. Others speak of the priests of R'hllor calling down the fire of their god in queer rituals. Some, wedding the fanciful notion of Valyrian magic to the reality of the ambitious great houses of Valyria, have argued that it was the constant whirl of conflict and deception amongst the great houses that might have led to the assassinations of too many of the reputed mages who renewed and maintained the rituals that banked the fires of the Fourteen Flames.
-TWOIAF, Ancient History: The Doom of Valyria
QuoteThey even attempted to restore the Targaryen dragons, despite Aegon's fears—for which none could blame him after witnessing his mother being eaten alive. He dreaded the sight of dragons—and had even less desire to ride upon one—but he was convinced that they would cow those who sought to oppose him. At Viserys's suggestion, he sent away for nine mages from Essos, attempting to use their arts to kindle a clutch of eggs. This proved both a debacle and a failure.
-TWOIAF, The Targaryen Kings: Aegon III
QuoteAnd intent on one more thing: dragons. As he grew older, Aegon V had come to dream of dragons flying once more above the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. In this, he was not unlike his predecessors, who brought septons to pray over the last eggs, mages to work spells over them, and maesters to pore over them.
-TWOIAF, The Targaryen Kings: Aegon V
I don't remember where I heard this but I have a vague memory that the Dragonlords and Valyrian mages were the more powerful factions in the Valyrian Freehold and the practice of incest was more frequent with them compared to a common noble freedholder. I also believe those two factions intermingled at times, so that some members of Dragonlord families became mages and some mages married into dragonlord families. If any body can find a source for this it would be great; otherwise, disregard what I just said.
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15 minutes ago, Ran said:
Cohollo is never named ko in the books, so I think that is an error.
I thought so, I fixed it.
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The wiki states that Cohollo was Khal Drogo's Ko as well as bloodrider but is that true ? I can not find a source for this.
Haggo and Qotho are only stated to be Drogo's bloodriders not his Kos. The titles of "Ko" and "bloodrider" are different in Dothraki culture. The former is a commander within a Khalasar and the latter is a personal guard/friend/trusted person in the immediate entourage of a Khal.
I know Daenerys named Aggo, Jhogo and Rakharo both her Kos and her bloodriders at the end of AGOT so it is not unprecedented for a dothraki to hold both titles. But I always read this as Daenerys having no one else competent that she could rely upon to lead her little Khalasar with her so she decided to named her bloodriders as commanders as well.
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On 3/18/2024 at 8:20 AM, Ran said:
Okay, folks, so far I've seen no issues and the server is now steady, so I think we're fine to say that you can now work on this wiki. Do let me know if there are any issues with things like uploading images, getting thumbnails made, etc.
I've created a new category "Deaths by chill" but the link between the characters pages and the category itself does not work properly.
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8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:
Even in the book the Sowing likely wasn't over in a fortnight. It might have never actually ended as, say, would-be dragonriders might have continued to search for the Grey Ghost until his death, etc.
Unlike the other dragonseeds who had a more hands on and direct approach to the dragons, Nettles fed Sheepstealer for enough time for the two of them to create a bond. Honestly if Addam, Hugh and Ulf get their dragons in the back half of season 2, its logical for Nettles to enter the picture at the start of season 3. Plus if the Battle of the Gullet is indeed the big battle that was pushed back to season 3, we don't really need Nettles in season 2, it is totally fine to cast her for season 3. I just hope we have a throw away line like "oh there is this girl that goes visit Sheepstealer".
It seems they are not adapting the Reach storyline this season, so Daeron falls into a similar situation as Nettles. However, I think a Daeron mention this season is necessary and not optional like it was for season 1.
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10 hours ago, direpupy said:
As far as i can tell its because the beginning of 131 is when the greens heard about Morning, but the actual hatching happened some time before that.
I guess it depends on how fast the greens heard about it and i do not have my copy of F&B at hand right now to check the wording.
You're right. Here is the wording:
QuoteAs the city’s septs rang their bells to signal the end of the old year and the coming of the new, King Aegon II proceeded along the street (thereafter known as Shepherd’s Way, rather than Hill Street as before) in his litter, whilst his knights rode to either side, setting their torches to the captive lambs to light his way.
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Even more grave were the tidings from the Vale, where Lady Jeyne Arryn had assembled fifteen hundred knights and eight thousand men-at-arms, and sent envoys to the Braavosi to arrange for ships to bring them down upon King’s Landing. With them would come a dragon. Lady Rhaena of House Targaryen, brave Baela’s twin, had brought a dragon’s egg with her to the Vale…an egg that had proved fertile, bringing forth a pale pink hatchling with black horns and crest. Rhaena named her Morning.
The Greens learned about Morning's hatching at the start of 131 AC but we do not know when the hatching occured exactly.
My guess is that Morning was born in late 130 AC because one would assume such news would be spread rapidly after the birth. As far as we know Rhaenyra never learn about it. However, we know Rhaenyra received letters from Jeyne Arryn when she was staying at Duskendale in between her flight from the capital (~late 9th moon of 130 AC) and her death at Dragonstone (22th day of the 10th moon of 130 AC).
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On 3/9/2024 at 7:35 AM, Ran said:
Not any kind of canon, no. We worked out those details ourselves for the game, with no input from George.
That's a shame because the information presented here is pretty cool and it would flesh out nicely the little tidbits we known of the organisation of the royal household/the Crown's offices from the books.
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I'm not sure if I read this following passage correctly.
Quote"You do not know his strength. He's been gathering men on Pyke. Orkwood of Orkmont brought him twenty longships, and Pinchface Jon Myre a dozen. Left-Hand Lucas Codd is with them. And Harren Half-Hoare, the Red Oarsman, Kemmett Pyke the Bastard, Rodrik Freeborn, Torwold Browntooth . . .""Men of small account." Asha knew them, every one. "The sons of salt wives, the grandsons of thralls. The Codds . . . do you know their words?""Though All Men Do Despise Us," Tris said, "but if they catch you in those nets of theirs, you'll be as dead as if they had been dragonlords. And there's worse. The Crow's Eye brought back monsters from the east . . . aye, and wizards too."A Feast for Crows - The Kraken's DaughterIs House Codd despised/looked down by the other nobles ironborn because
1) they are descendants of salt wives and thralls like the others cited by Asha here
or 2) there is another reason ?
In ADWD Theon also reflects on House Codd's status.
QuoteThe Codds were not well regarded in the Iron Islands; the men were said to be thieves and cowards, the women wantons who bedded with their own fathers and brothers. It did not surprise him that his uncle had chosen to leave these men behind when the Iron Fleet went home. This will make my task that much easier.
A Dance with Dragons - Reek II
It seems that Answer 2 is the correct one. But Answer 1 could still be correct too, thoughts ?
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29 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:
You could be right, but is there a source for that?
The quote from Edric's entry in AWOIAF from above.
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26 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:
The app states Edric was the successor of his father.
I've just checked as well.
Quote"Coming young to the lordship after his father's untimely death, Edric becomes Lord Beric Dondarrion's page when his aunt, Allyria Dayne, is betrothed to Lord Beric. Edric is seven at that time."
As I understanded it,Edric was already the lord when he became Beric's page at seven years old. Since Edric was born in 287 AC, he would have turned 7 in 294 AC and was still seven in early 295 AC. Meaning he moved to Blackhaven in 294 or 295 AC. Thus the maximum range of death for Edric's father is in between 286 AC (if Edric was a posthumous son) and 295 AC (if the father died when Edric was still seven but close to his 8th nameday).
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3 hours ago, direpupy said:
I think its based on Edric being the current Lord and his father being the eldest known sibling among the four known Dayne's from the previeus generation. So no book confirmation there, which does leave the posibility of a different Lord, an even older sibling or a childless uncle or cousin of Edric's father. I think they article should be changed to reflect that while its possible his father was the Lord there is the posibility he was not.
Yes. Or another possibily would be for Edric to have inherited his lordship from his Dayne grandfather or grandmother and it skipped Edric's father who did not outlive his Lord father/Lady mother.
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Can anydoby point to me a passage where it is said that Edric Dayne’s father was the Lord of Starfall ?
I found a mention of him in ASOS Arya VIII but not of him having this title.
QuoteMy father was Ser Arthur's elder brother. Lady Ashara was my aunt. I never knew her, though. She threw herself into the sea from atop the Palestone Sword before I was born.
If he was not a Lord then we should edit the ”House Dayne”, ”Edric Dayne” and ”Lord of Starfall” articles.
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48 minutes ago, Hippocras said:
I don’t think it works that way.
Actually it does. GRRM has always refer to himself as a "gardener" in his writting process. He planted the seed for a rebellion that lead to Maekar's death in ACOK but it is only a decade later that he fleshed out that idea into the Peake Uprising.
51 minutes ago, Hippocras said:So he knew he wanted a schism of Westeros families, and he knew which Houses were in which camps. I wouldn’t be surprised if he set the Peake Uprising in 233 precisely so that it would correspond to Walder Frey’s marrage.
That's quite a bold statement when even to this day we don't know which camp (if any) the Royces took during the different Blackfyre Rebellions. So linking Walder Frey's marriage to a Royce to the aftermath of the Peake Uprising (a likely Blackfyre adjacent conflict) without tangible evidence is risky. Might I add that we don't even know when Walder's marriage took place or the year of Stevron's birth (233 and 234 AC are both possible). Walder and Perra could have married in 233 AC like they could have married 3 years earlier.
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1 hour ago, Hippocras said:
I am reasonably confident that Walder Frey's marriage to Perra Royce and the birth of their son Stevron was related to either the Peake Uprising, the Great Council, or both. It is quite unusual for GRRM to specify dates of birth so precisely for such minor characters (Stevron) unless he is trying to relate the birth to the events of the histories.
I seriously doubt it. There are two references of Stevron age: first in AGOT he is simply "past sixty" and then in ACOK Big Walder says he was 65 when he dies. GRRM did not have a concret timeline of events like he has now back when he wrote the first two books. In fact the Blackfyres and Peakes stuff all came after those books were published, the Blackfyres were not invented before ASOS and the Peake Uprising and the siege of Starpike were simply "a battle against an outlaw lord" (ACOK, Jon I) at the time.
At best GRRM can make details work in retrospective if he wants to. Otherwise, Stevron being born around the time of Maekar's death is pure coincidence.
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As far as strange marriages not discussed here yet, we can talk of the Frey marriages.
In a feudal system like Westeros a lot more is to gain/lose with a good/bad marriage for the heir or second child than for a 7th or 8th child. Big families put gradually less and less effort in marriages/betrothals as we climb down the family tree but Walder Frey seems to go against the flow and still manages some good marriages for his kin after all this time.
While examining the Frey family tree, I think I have identified the reason for Walder's matchmaker success: Since he doesn't manage to get match with the topdog of the riverlands (exceptions: his Blackwood fourth wife, his Whent fifth wife and a Vance marriage for his eldest daughter), he either goes for
1) minor riverlands Houses who gain from marrying up (Vypren, Hawick, Blanetree, ...)
or 2) important Houses from other regions where House Frey's origin is less stigmatized (Swann, Royce, Lydden, ...).
Overall Walder did really well for his family in the marriage department and even achieved his ultimate goal by having his daughter marrying a Tully.
One thing I'd like to know more about is Walder's first wife Perra Royce. We don't know Perra's relation compare to the Lord of Runestone at the time but regardless it is a pretty good match especially if his father's reputation was a bit tarnished after the Second Blackfyre Rebellion's debacle. It seems Walder married a bit late for an heir as he was 25 or 26 when his first child was born (Stevron).
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2 hours ago, Hippocras said:
Also the use of the names Royce and Ambrose as first names is very likely to be headed in this direction.
Royce Baratheon was named after his maternal grandfather Royce Caron and has no relation to House Royce.
I'll give you that Royce Coldwater is actually a vassal of the Royces, so there is a connection here. As far as the other Royces (Blackwood, 2 Bolton and Caron) there is nothing.
If I were to associate Ambrose Butterwell with a House from the Reach, I would chose the Peakes or Costaynes any day over House Ambrose.
2 hours ago, Hippocras said:It is about association IMO. Ellyn Baratheon was one of the Four Storms. GRRM gave them an interesting story and part of that story was ambition, rebelliousness, and a drop of royal blood to go with it, which underpinned a certain arrogance and entitlement. Because of this, when we see the name Ellyn elsewhere in the series, we have those traits associated with the name more or less subconsciously. So we come to Ellyn Reyne, who provoked a rebellion in the Westerlands and had all of the above character traits.
Yes exactly, GRRM gave an interesting story to the Four Storms but not to Ellyn herself. If anything Ellyn is actually the most boring one out of the four. She just made a comment about her breasts to a child one time. That's litterally the only thing we know about her on her own and not as part of the group.
At least we have some info to differentiate her sisters:
- Cassandra was the oldest and the ambitious one but had to give her ambitions up at the end and lived a quiet life away from court and politic.
- Maris was the second born and the cleveress. She came up with a zing on the fly against Aemond and ended up a silent sister.
- Floris was the prettiest, a sweet and frivolous girl. She got hitched like Cassandra but unlike her, she did not got a happy ending.
Also two elements are not enough, you need more if you want your readers to pick up on a pattern. I'm sorry but linking consciously or subconsciously Ellyn Baratheon and Ellyn Reyne together does not work.
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32 minutes ago, Hippocras said:
Arnold had backing from House Royce and their vassals no doubt because his wife, and mother of his son was a Royce.
Nope, Arnold was a squire at Runestone in his youth which created ties with House Royce. The Masseys and Targaryens's ties just before the Conquest could have been created in a similar way.
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5 hours ago, Hippocras said:
Joffrey was her heir, not Arnold.
Joffrey became the heir as Jeyne's last testament was read after her death. From a legal point of view Arnold was the heir up until that point.
5 hours ago, Hippocras said:Yes. You are not accounting for passing generations. Ellyn is a first name that can and does repeat in families, both the PATERNAL line, so Baratheons etc., and the MATERNAL line, so whatever family the girl married in to. Sometime these names are the only clue we have of where girls might have gone, and where their mothers might have come from, tricky as it can be as a clue.
Maternal lines interviene very rarely in this story and only if it is convenient. You can speculate on maternal line if you want but it will not give a lot of result, there are simply too much unknown.
5 hours ago, Hippocras said:We KNOW that house Massey was related by blood to House Targaryen at the time of the conquest
No they only have better ties with the Targaryens rather than Durrandons. We do not know what those ties were (marriage, economic, friendship, fosterage, ...). It could be as simple as Triston Massey was fed up with the Durrandons and liked Aerion/Aegon Targaryen more.
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On 1/13/2024 at 4:13 PM, Hippocras said:
Alyssa Royce - marriage possibly part of Vale conflict/resolution
Jeyne Arryn died in 134 AC, there was no issue in the Vale to resolve in 133 AC since Ser Arnold was the clear her heir. It is only when her last testament was made public after her death that the conflict started.
On 1/13/2024 at 4:13 PM, Hippocras said:Ellyn Baratheon - Might be an ancestor of Ellyn Reyne, so married a Westerlands or western Reach House
Why ? Just because they have the same surname ? If anything, it is Ellyn Baratheon that has more chance to be named after Ellyn Caron since Baratheon's mother was a Caron.
On 1/13/2024 at 4:13 PM, Hippocras said:Henrietta Woodhull - marriage possibly part of Vale conflict/resolution
House Woodwull is a very very minor family being only a landed House on the island of the Paps and vassals of House Elesham. So minor in fact that Henrietta was the last maiden presented to Aegon III. A Woodhull marriage would change nothing for an important problem such as the Eyrie succession.
On 1/13/2024 at 4:13 PM, Hippocras said:Jeyne Merryweather [...] Jeyne Mooton [...] Jeyne Smallwood - Obviously considered competition for Myrielle so may have had some degree of Targaryen lineage. Reputation damage so…
The lineage of House Targaryen is pretty well documented up until the Dance, I seriously doubt any of those had some Targaryen blood. The Mooton being on the coast and close to the Crownlands make them the more likely House of the three. So maybe there is a drop of Targaryen blood in House Mooton via a Velaryon marriage or something.
The Smallwoods are relatively minor House being the vassal of the Vances. However, they seem to be respected for their martial prowess being in the first line of defense in case of a westermen invasion. I don't think the Smallwoods are powerful enough to be considered a strong candidate for a Targaryen king.
In fact when Alyssa Velaryon proposed to wed the young King Jaehaerys with one of the Houses loyal to Aegon the Uncrowned she cited the Vances but not the Smallwoods despite both having fought for Aegon.
On 1/13/2024 at 4:13 PM, Hippocras said:Lyra Hayford - Obviously considered competition for Myrielle so may have had some degree of Targaryen lineage. Reputation damage so…
The Hayfords are probably the closest House to King's Landing geographically speaking and they have an history of loyalty towards the Targaryens but I would not put them as serious candidate for a Targaryen marriage. The Stokeworths, Rosbys and Darklyn seems all three to be more powerful.
On 1/13/2024 at 4:13 PM, Hippocras said:Moriah Qorgyle, Myrmadora Haen, Myrielle Peake, Patricia Redwyne
All good possibilities. I agree with you here.
On 1/13/2024 at 4:13 PM, Hippocras said:Not known to have been at the Ball:
Not all the poeple sharing the same first name must be related you know.
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@Ran Is there a reason for the Images portal to not be included in the Community portal like the rest of portal pages (Chapter Summaries, Characters, Houses of Westeros, Timeline of major events, Geography, Culture, TV Show) ?
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6 hours ago, Hippocras said:
So what form did this influence take?
I can see two options:
- Political: Kermit might somehow have managed to boost the Tully influence and power within the riverlands and improve the image of House Tully in general. I'm guessing he might be a proto-Hoster Tully in the sense that we know Hoster was politically savvy and very busy always visiting his vassals, settling feuds, etc.
- Martial: Kermit was only 19 when the Dance ended and he will be 45 when Daeron I launch his Conquest of Dorne. Kermit might have proven a good commander during that war as well.
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- Myriah Martell to Mariah Martell to Myriah Martell
- Myres to Myros
- Willum Royce to Willam Royce
- Tyler Hill to Emory Hill (+ a separate Tyler Hill was created earlier in the timeline too)
- Rogar Baratheon to Robar Baratheon to Rogar Baratheon
- Dormand Darry to Darnold Darry
There has been quite a few examples in the past, Harlen to Harlan is just the most recent one we were made aware of.
There are more if you count the reordering of Jaehaerys I's children that resulted in Aeryn Targaryen to Daenerys Targaryen or the several mispellings of characters throughout the series:
- Arys Oakheart misspelled as "Aerys"
- Jarman Buckwell misspelled as "Jarmen"
- Cuger misspelled misspelled as "Cugen"
- Rubert Brax misspelled as "Rupert"
- Lothor Brune misspelled as "Lothar"
- Sumner Crakehall misspelled as "Crake-hall"
- Osmund Kettleblack misspelled as "Oswald"
- Mago misspelled as "Maggo"
- Torwynd misspelled as "Torwyrd"
- Eldon Estermont misspelled as "Elden"
- Sybell Spicer misspelled as "Sybelle"
- Shadrich misspelled as "Shadrick"
- Erik Ironmaker misspelled as "Eric"
- Bowen Marsh misspelled as "Bower"
- House of Zhak misspelled as "Zakh"
- Ginger Jack misspelled as "Ginjer"
- Ramsay Bolton misspelled as "Ramsey"
@Ran I'm wondering if the character of "Marian Stark" in the Blood of Dragons MUSH was named by Linda and you, or if you took that name from some of GRRM' notes he shared with you and he later decided to change her name into what it is currently in the canon "Mariah Stark" ?
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Not a big deal but since I saw it, I might as well share it. The filming for Dunk and Egg has been pushed back from Spring 2024 to Summer 2024.
Do you agree that Lothar Frey is Near Pure Evil?
in General (ASoIaF)
Posted · Edited by Thomaerys Velaryon
I don't think Lothar is pure evil, he is just an intelligent and cunning guy with poor moral. If it benefits him he will do it.
I genuinely like the idea of Lothar ending up Lord of the Crossing. This is based on the "Frey civil war" idea where Edwyn and Black Walder split the Frey family in two factions after the death of Lord Walder, each controlling one of the castles for a time and some Freys dying during the conflict and culminating with Lame Lothar on top at the end.
The current Frey line of succession for the Twins is:
Lord Walder >
Stevron>Ryman> Edwyn > Walda1, 5 > Black Walder >Petyr Pimple> Perra1, 5 >Aegon Jinglebell>Maegelle1 > Walder Vance1, 5 > Patrek Vance1, 5 > Marianne Vance1, 5 > Walton > Steffon > Bryan5 > Fair Walda1 > Emmon4 >Cleos> Tywin4,5 > Willem4, 5 > Lyonel4 > Tion4, 5 > Red Walder4, 5 >Aenys> Aegon Bloodborn3 >Rhaegar> Robert5 > Jonos5 > White Walda1, 5 > Perianne1 > Harys Haigh1 > Walder Haigh1, 5 > Donnel Haigh1 > Alyn Haigh1, 5 >Jared>Tytos> Zachery2, 5 > Zia1, 5 > Kyra1 > Walder Goodbrook1, 5 > Jeyne Goodbrook1, 5 > Luceon2 > Hosteen > Arwood6 > Androw5, 6 > Alyn5, 6 > Ryella1, 5, 6 > Hostella1, 5, 6 >Symond> Alesander7 > Bradamar5, 8 > Alyx1 > Danwell6 >Merrett>Little Walder> Amerei1, 6 > Fat Walda1, 6 > Marissa1, 6 >Geremy> Sandor5 > Cynthea1, 5 > Raymund > Robert2 > Malwyn8 > Tywin5 > Jaime5 > Sarra1, 5 > Serra1, 5 > Cersei1, 5 > Lythene1 > Damon Vypren1 > Elyana Vypren1 > Rickard Vypren1, 5 > LotharLegend
Striketrough= DeadIf we simplify the line of succession by deleting all the characters concerned by one of the points in the legend, it becomes:
Lord Walder > Edwyn > Black Walder > Walton > Steffon > Hosteen > Raymund > Lothar.
Edwyn and Black Walder are probably gonna end up killing each other. Hosteen is likely to die in the North in TWOW. I seriously don't think the BWB is done killing Freys and as the killer of Catelyn Stark, Raymund is probably the prime target they want to eliminate right now. That would only leave Walton and his son Steffon ahead of Lothar, the odds are not that bad for Lothar all things considered.