Jump to content

Thomaerys Velaryon

  • Posts

  • Joined

  • Last visited

Posts posted by Thomaerys Velaryon

  1. I'm not sure if I read this following passage correctly.

    "You do not know his strength. He's been gathering men on Pyke. Orkwood of Orkmont brought him twenty longships, and Pinchface Jon Myre a dozen. Left-Hand Lucas Codd is with them. And Harren Half-Hoare, the Red Oarsman, Kemmett Pyke the Bastard, Rodrik Freeborn, Torwold Browntooth . . ."
    "Men of small account." Asha knew them, every one. "The sons of salt wives, the grandsons of thralls. The Codds . . . do you know their words?"
    "Though All Men Do Despise Us," Tris said, "but if they catch you in those nets of theirs, you'll be as dead as if they had been dragonlords. And there's worse. The Crow's Eye brought back monsters from the east . . . aye, and wizards too."
    A Feast for Crows - The Kraken's Daughter

    Is House Codd despised/looked down by the other nobles ironborn because

    1) they are descendants of salt wives and thralls like the others cited by Asha here

    or 2) there is another reason ?

    In ADWD Theon also reflects on House Codd's status.


    The Codds were not well regarded in the Iron Islands; the men were said to be thieves and cowards, the women wantons who bedded with their own fathers and brothers. It did not surprise him that his uncle had chosen to leave these men behind when the Iron Fleet went home. This will make my task that much easier.

    A Dance with Dragons - Reek II

    It seems that Answer 2 is the correct one. But Answer 1 could still be correct too, thoughts ?

  2. 26 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

    The app states Edric was the successor of his father.

    I've just checked as well.


    "Coming young to the lordship after his father's untimely death, Edric becomes Lord Beric Dondarrion's page when his aunt, Allyria Dayne, is betrothed to Lord Beric. Edric is seven at that time."

    As I understanded it,Edric was already the lord when he became Beric's page at seven years old. Since Edric was born in 287 AC, he would have turned 7 in 294 AC and was still seven in early 295 AC. Meaning he moved to Blackhaven in 294 or 295 AC. Thus the maximum range of death for Edric's father is in between 286 AC (if Edric was a posthumous son) and 295 AC (if the father died when Edric was still seven but close to his 8th nameday).

  3. 3 hours ago, direpupy said:

    I think its based on Edric being the current Lord and his father being the eldest known sibling among the four known Dayne's from the previeus generation. So no book confirmation there, which does leave the posibility of a different Lord, an even older sibling or a childless uncle or cousin of Edric's father. I think they article should be changed to reflect that while its possible his father was the Lord there is the posibility he was not.

    Yes. Or another possibily would be for Edric to have inherited his lordship from his Dayne grandfather or grandmother and it skipped Edric's father who did not outlive his Lord father/Lady mother.

  4. Can anydoby point to me a passage where it is said that Edric Dayne’s father was the Lord of Starfall ?

    I found a mention of him in ASOS Arya VIII but not of him having this title.


    My father was Ser Arthur's elder brother. Lady Ashara was my aunt. I never knew her, though. She threw herself into the sea from atop the Palestone Sword before I was born.

    If he was not a Lord then we should edit the ”House Dayne”, ”Edric Dayne” and ”Lord of Starfall” articles.

  5. 48 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

    I don’t think it works that way.

    Actually it does. GRRM has always refer to himself as a "gardener" in his writting process. He planted the seed for a rebellion that lead to Maekar's death in ACOK but it is only a decade later that he fleshed out that idea into the Peake Uprising.

    51 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

    So he knew he wanted a schism of Westeros families, and he knew which Houses were in which camps. I wouldn’t be surprised if he set the Peake Uprising in 233 precisely so that it would correspond to Walder Frey’s marrage.

    That's quite a bold statement when even to this day we don't know which camp (if any) the Royces took during the different Blackfyre Rebellions. So linking Walder Frey's marriage to a Royce to the aftermath of the Peake Uprising (a likely Blackfyre adjacent conflict) without tangible evidence is risky. Might I add that we don't even know when Walder's marriage took place or the year of Stevron's birth (233 and 234 AC are both possible). Walder and Perra could have married in 233 AC like they could have married 3 years earlier.

  6. 1 hour ago, Hippocras said:

    I am reasonably confident that Walder Frey's marriage to Perra Royce and the birth of their son Stevron was related to either the Peake Uprising, the Great Council, or both. It is quite unusual for GRRM to specify dates of birth so precisely for such minor characters (Stevron) unless he is trying to relate the birth to the events of the histories.

    I seriously doubt it. There are two references of Stevron age: first in AGOT he is simply "past sixty" and then in ACOK Big Walder says he was 65 when he dies. GRRM did not have a concret timeline of events like he has now back when he wrote the first two books. In fact the Blackfyres and Peakes stuff all came after those books were published, the Blackfyres were not invented before ASOS and the Peake Uprising and the siege of Starpike were simply "a battle against an outlaw lord" (ACOK, Jon I) at the time.

    At best GRRM can make details work in retrospective if he wants to. Otherwise, Stevron being born around the time of Maekar's death is pure coincidence.

  7. As far as strange marriages not discussed here yet, we can talk of the Frey marriages.

    In a feudal system like Westeros a lot more is to gain/lose with a good/bad marriage for the heir or second child than for a 7th or 8th child. Big families put gradually less and less effort in marriages/betrothals as we climb down the family tree but Walder Frey seems to go against the flow and still manages some good marriages for his kin after all this time.

    While examining the Frey family tree, I think I have identified the reason for Walder's matchmaker success: Since he doesn't manage to get match with the topdog of the riverlands (exceptions: his Blackwood fourth wife, his Whent fifth wife and a Vance marriage for his eldest daughter), he either goes for

    1) minor riverlands Houses who gain from marrying up (Vypren, Hawick, Blanetree, ...)

    or 2) important Houses from other regions where House Frey's origin is less stigmatized (Swann, Royce, Lydden, ...).

    Overall Walder did really well for his family in the marriage department and even achieved his ultimate goal by having his daughter marrying a Tully.

    One thing I'd like to know more about is Walder's first wife Perra Royce. We don't know Perra's relation compare to the Lord of Runestone at the time but regardless it is a pretty good match especially if his father's reputation was a bit tarnished after the Second Blackfyre Rebellion's debacle. It seems Walder married a bit late for an heir as he was 25 or 26 when his first child was born (Stevron).

  8. 2 hours ago, Hippocras said:

    Also the use of the names Royce and Ambrose as first names is very likely to be headed in this direction.

    Royce Baratheon was named after his maternal grandfather Royce Caron and has no relation to House Royce.

    I'll give you that Royce Coldwater is actually a vassal of the Royces, so there is a connection here. As far as the other Royces (Blackwood, 2 Bolton and Caron) there is nothing.

    If I were to associate Ambrose Butterwell with a House from the Reach, I would chose the Peakes or Costaynes any day over House Ambrose.

    2 hours ago, Hippocras said:

    It is about association IMO. Ellyn Baratheon was one of the Four Storms. GRRM gave them an interesting story and part of that story was ambition, rebelliousness, and a drop of royal blood to go with it, which underpinned a certain arrogance and entitlement. Because of this, when we see the name Ellyn elsewhere in the series, we have those traits associated with the name more or less subconsciously. So we come to Ellyn Reyne, who provoked a rebellion in the Westerlands and had all of the above character traits.

    Yes exactly, GRRM gave an interesting story to the Four Storms but not to Ellyn herself. If anything Ellyn is actually the most boring one out of the four. She just made a comment about her breasts to a child one time. That's litterally the only thing we know about her on her own and not as part of the group.

    At least we have some info to differentiate her sisters:

    • Cassandra was the oldest and the ambitious one but had to give her ambitions up at the end and lived a quiet life away from court and politic.
    • Maris was the second born and the cleveress. She came up with a zing on the fly against Aemond and ended up a silent sister.
    • Floris was the prettiest, a sweet and frivolous girl. She got hitched like Cassandra but unlike her, she did not got a happy ending.

    Also two elements are not enough, you need more if you want your readers to pick up on a pattern. I'm sorry but linking consciously or subconsciously Ellyn Baratheon and Ellyn Reyne together does not work.

  9. 32 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

    Arnold had backing from House Royce and their vassals no doubt because his wife, and mother of his son was a Royce.

    Nope, Arnold was a squire at Runestone in his youth which created ties with House Royce. The Masseys and Targaryens's ties just before the Conquest could have been created in a similar way.

  10. 5 hours ago, Hippocras said:

    Joffrey was her heir, not Arnold.

    Joffrey became the heir as Jeyne's last testament was read after her death. From a legal point of view Arnold was the heir up until that point.

    5 hours ago, Hippocras said:

    Yes. You are not accounting for passing generations. Ellyn is a first name that can and does repeat in families, both the PATERNAL line, so Baratheons etc., and the MATERNAL line, so whatever family the girl married in to. Sometime these names are the only clue we have of where girls might have gone, and where their mothers might have come from, tricky as it can be as a clue.

    Maternal lines interviene very rarely in this story and only if it is convenient. You can speculate on maternal line if you want but it will not give a lot of result, there are simply too much unknown.

    5 hours ago, Hippocras said:

    We KNOW that house Massey was related by blood to House Targaryen at the time of the conquest

    No they only have better ties with the Targaryens rather than Durrandons. We do not know what those ties were (marriage, economic, friendship, fosterage, ...). It could be as simple as Triston Massey was fed up with the Durrandons and liked Aerion/Aegon Targaryen more.

  11. On 1/13/2024 at 4:13 PM, Hippocras said:

    Alyssa Royce - marriage possibly part of Vale conflict/resolution

    Jeyne Arryn died in 134 AC, there was no issue in the Vale to resolve in 133 AC since Ser Arnold was the clear her heir. It is only when her last testament was made public after her death that the conflict started.

    On 1/13/2024 at 4:13 PM, Hippocras said:

    Ellyn Baratheon - Might be an ancestor of Ellyn Reyne, so married a Westerlands or western Reach House

    Why ? Just because they have the same surname ? If anything, it is Ellyn Baratheon that has more chance to be named after Ellyn Caron since Baratheon's mother was a Caron.

    On 1/13/2024 at 4:13 PM, Hippocras said:

    Henrietta Woodhull - marriage possibly part of Vale conflict/resolution

    House Woodwull is a very very minor family being only a landed House on the island of the Paps and vassals of House Elesham. So minor in fact that Henrietta was the last maiden presented to Aegon III. A Woodhull marriage would change nothing for an important problem such as the Eyrie succession.

    On 1/13/2024 at 4:13 PM, Hippocras said:

    Jeyne Merryweather [...] Jeyne Mooton [...] Jeyne Smallwood - Obviously considered competition for Myrielle so may have had some degree of Targaryen lineage. Reputation damage so…

    The lineage of House Targaryen is pretty well documented up until the Dance, I seriously doubt any of those had some Targaryen blood. The Mooton being on the coast and close to the Crownlands make them the more likely House of the three. So maybe there is a drop of Targaryen blood in House Mooton via a Velaryon marriage or something.

    The Smallwoods are relatively minor House being the vassal of the Vances. However, they seem to be respected for their martial prowess being in the first line of defense in case of a westermen invasion. I don't think the Smallwoods are powerful enough to be considered a strong candidate for a Targaryen king.

    In fact when Alyssa Velaryon proposed to wed the young King Jaehaerys with one of the Houses loyal to Aegon the Uncrowned she cited the Vances but not the Smallwoods despite both having fought for Aegon.

    On 1/13/2024 at 4:13 PM, Hippocras said:

    Lyra Hayford - Obviously considered competition for Myrielle so may have had some degree of Targaryen lineage. Reputation damage so…

    The Hayfords are probably the closest House to King's Landing geographically speaking and they have an history of loyalty towards the Targaryens but I would not put them as serious candidate for a Targaryen marriage. The Stokeworths, Rosbys and Darklyn seems all three to be more powerful.

    On 1/13/2024 at 4:13 PM, Hippocras said:

    Moriah Qorgyle, Myrmadora Haen, Myrielle Peake, Patricia Redwyne

    All good possibilities. I agree with you here.

    On 1/13/2024 at 4:13 PM, Hippocras said:

    Not known to have been at the Ball:

    Not all the poeple sharing the same first name must be related you know.

  12. 6 hours ago, Hippocras said:

    So what form did this influence take?

    I can see two options:

    • Political: Kermit might somehow have managed to boost the Tully influence and power within the riverlands and improve the image of House Tully in general. I'm guessing he might be a proto-Hoster Tully in the sense that we know Hoster was politically savvy and very busy always visiting his vassals, settling feuds, etc.
    • Martial: Kermit was only 19 when the Dance ended and he will be 45 when Daeron I launch his Conquest of Dorne. Kermit might have proven a good commander during that war as well.
  13. @zajaz

    • Myriah Martell to Mariah Martell to Myriah Martell
    • Myres to Myros
    • Willum Royce to Willam Royce
    • Tyler Hill to Emory Hill (+ a separate Tyler Hill was created earlier in the timeline too)
    • Rogar Baratheon to Robar Baratheon to Rogar Baratheon
    • Dormand Darry to Darnold Darry

    There has been quite a few examples in the past, Harlen to Harlan is just the most recent one we were made aware of.

    There are more if you count the reordering of Jaehaerys I's children that resulted in Aeryn Targaryen to Daenerys Targaryen or the several mispellings of characters throughout the series:

    • Arys Oakheart misspelled as "Aerys"
    • Jarman Buckwell misspelled as "Jarmen"
    • Cuger misspelled misspelled as "Cugen"
    • Rubert Brax misspelled as "Rupert"
    • Lothor Brune misspelled as "Lothar"
    • Sumner Crakehall misspelled as "Crake-hall"
    • Osmund Kettleblack misspelled as "Oswald"
    • Mago misspelled as "Maggo"
    • Torwynd misspelled as "Torwyrd"
    • Eldon Estermont misspelled as "Elden"
    • Sybell Spicer misspelled as "Sybelle"
    • Shadrich misspelled as "Shadrick"
    • Erik Ironmaker misspelled as "Eric"
    • Bowen Marsh misspelled as "Bower"
    • House of Zhak misspelled as "Zakh"
    • Ginger Jack misspelled as "Ginjer"
    • Ramsay Bolton misspelled as "Ramsey"


    @Ran I'm wondering if the character of "Marian Stark" in the Blood of Dragons MUSH was named by Linda and you, or if you took that name from some of GRRM' notes he shared with you and he later decided to change her name into what it is currently in the canon "Mariah Stark" ?

  14. 13 hours ago, Ran said:

    I would go Harlan. Harlen's an oversight that's gone uncorrected in the appendices.

    The spelling of "Harlen" only appears for this characters. Meanwhile we have 4 "Arlan" (of Pennytree and 3 Durrandon kings), 3 "Harlan" (Grandison, Hoare, and Hunter), as well as 2 Garland Gardener kings and 1 Garlan Tyrell . So it does make more sense to be "Harlan Tyrell" over "Harlen Tyrell".

  15. @Hippocras That's not a theory, that's what the quote I provided said. The body was found next to Seasmoke.

    3 hours ago, Hippocras said:

    That makes no sense because it was Aegon IV who arranged Daemon's match with Rohanne, Aegon IV CREATED the Blackfyre threat. He was certainly not trying to reduce the threat.

    You've probably read my comment wrong because I'm talking about Kiera and the Red dragon faction here (Daeron II and his sons, Bloodraven, ..). Aegon IV was already dead by that point.

  16. 16 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

    Addam died at Tumbleton in the Reach. Why was it not House Footly who returned the bones? It is a very confusing detail that indicates there is more to the story. For now we have no explanation at all for why the Blackwoods were involved and what they got out of it.

    Not really, the explanation is simply because Ben found the body in the aftermath of the battle.


    At moonrise the riverlords abandoned the field to the carrion crows, fading back into the hills. One of them, the boy Ben Blackwood, carried with him the broken body of Ser Addam Velaryon, found dead beside his dragon. His bones would rest at Raventree Hall for eight years, but in 138 AC his brother, Alyn, would have them returned to Driftmark and entombed in Hull, the town of his birth. On his tomb is engraved a single word: LOYAL. Its ornate letters are supported by carvings of a seahorse and a mouse.

    F&B, The Dying of the Dragons - Rhaenyra Overthrown

    Addam was able to assemble the riverlords which takes charisma (having a dragon next to you surely helps but it is not enough), I assume Addam left a big impression on the riverlords, especially on the young Benjicot (12 at the time). It makes sense to me he would have wanted a proper burial for Addam after the battle. Since House Velaryon was of dubious loyalty at the time (Corlys was imprisoned by Rhaenyra in KL), the best way to achieve that without risking to lose the body later on would be to sending it home to Raventree Hall.

    After the battle, Lady Sharis Footly got back the control of the town from the violent man who killed her husband and raped and impregnated her. She was a capable lady who reinvigorated the town in the years after the war but I don't blame her for not managing everything in the aftermath of the battle (including identifying and managing the 1,000+ corpses in and around her town).


    40 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

    This is why I am quite sure that Viserys arranged "safe" marriages for his nieces. 

    I can see your logic but I'm still not convinced Daena had more children after Daemon Waters or there was any exil involved.

    The idea of Daena being the mother of Rohanne and/or Kiera of Tyrosh is really weird. For that to work Daena would have to be exiled in 171 AC, go to Tyrosh and immediately get pregant by the Archon. By the time Rohanne would be born Viserys I would be dead and Aegon IV on the throne and Daena could come back to KL. Then at the end of his reign Aegon would discuss with the Archon to marry Daemon (that he just aknowledge as his bastard) with Rohanne. In this scenario, by the time they marry and have their first child (twins Aegon and Aemon) Daemon is 14 and while Rohanne is 12 pushing 13 at the most. I'm sorry but a 12 or 13 years old girl giving birth to healthy twins then having at least seven other children in the span of 12 years seem really unrealistic. I know some women in the story are just there to be "baby-machine" but that's really pushing it. Rohanne was almost certainly older than Daemon (kind of like Viserys II being 7 years younger than his wife Larra Rogare).

    In the case of Kiera, we know nothing about her so timeline-wise the idea of her being Daena's daughter could work. But then we have to ask the question: why would the Red Dragon faction be that interested in marrying her twice ? I've always put it at simply them building a coalition with a new Archon of Tyrosh (Rohanne's father's term as Archon was over by that time) to diminish the power and influence of the Blackfyre family in Tyrosh and thus reducing the threat level for another Blackfyre invasion of Westeros.


  17. If we are talking in-universe, then Wyman Manderly is on the top of the list for me. The characters mostly underestimate his abilities due to his physical appearance and believe him to be a coward. But we readers know otherwise.

    If we are talking within the fandom, I'd nominate Mace Tyrell. Do I believe him to be a secret genius or brilliant politician ? No absolutely not, but I do think he deserves more credit than people give him. I don't think everything he does/wants comes from Olenna. By her own admition, it is Mace's idea to push for having an alliance with the iron throne. She is only there to guide things along for the betterment of the family when she can (which admitely is more than most Dowager Ladies we've met in the series). And since she returned for Highgarden in AFFC, her influence in Mace's plans is greatly diminished now. She might influence her grandsons's actions against the ironborn, however. We will see.

  18. @Hippocras

    I wonder if @Lord of Oldstones's idea of a son of Ben Blackwood marrying a daughter of Cregan Stark does not come from the Blood of Dragons Mush game where Seth Blackwood marries Mariah Stark.

    Speaking of Ben Blackwood and his descendants, I'm fairly confident he was Bloodraven's great-grandfather. When the Brackens and Blackwoods are brought up, they usually go in pairs, if one is the Lord then the other too, if one is the son/daughter of the ruling Lord then the other is too. But when it comes to the mistresses of Aegon IV, Barba and Bethany are the daughters of Lord Bracken but the connection between Melissa Blackwood and the ruling Lord Blackwood is not specified. We know Ben had a long life, so to me it makes sense he was still the Lord Blackwood at that time and timeline wise him being Melissa's grandfather fits well (he was around 40 years old at Melissa's birth). I suppose Ben was still alive when Bloodraven was born too as he was only 57 years old at the time.

    Lord Quentyn Blackwood who was slain in a tourney in 206 AC most likely was one of Ben's direct descendants as well (either a grandson or great-grandson).


    On 12/29/2023 at 6:01 PM, Hippocras said:

    The return of Addam's bones seems to have been a complicated task that required negotiations, brokering, and several years passing. I very much doubt this task was taken on by the Blackwoods without an alliance in return. It is in fact one of the only examples from Alyn's travels and friendships where Alyn needed somerhing from someone else and not the other way around.

    The timing of Addam's reburial in Driftmark in 138 AC has always seemed odd to me. I wonder if GRRM first randomly chose this year while writing for TPATQ and TWOIAF to show that it did not happen immediately after the Dance of the Dragons. And then he did not bother to change/retcon it while he expanded this time period when writting for Fire & Blood. Given that Ben and Alyn worked together to put Joffrey Arryn as Lord of the Eyrie in 135 AC, you would think Addam's reburial would have happened in early 136 AC in the aftermath of the Great Council when everyone went back home. Also the reburial of Addam's bones could have been used as a setting for Alyn and Baela's reconciliation or for her announcing her second pregnancy (the theme of death and rebirth) before he departs for his second voyage.

    Plus the 138 AC date means that now Addam's reburial will be one of the first event in Fire & Blood Volume 2, instead of being in the end of the first volume when the stories linked to the Dance get wrapped up during the regency era.


    17 hours ago, Hippocras said:

    Daena was likely sent far away after Daemon’s birth to reduce the threat she posed to Visery’s reign.

    I'm not sure I'm buying Viserys sending Daena the Defiant into exile. From what we are told, Viserys's ascension to the throne was relatevely smooth. After a decade of isolation in the Maidenvault, Daena simply did not have the connections needed to pursue her claim to the throne.

  19. @Loraq There you go, I've put Beron's descendant more so to the left and now all the lign appears as they should.

    2 hours ago, Loraq said:

    In the "Stark tree Conquest" Lord Roderick Stark's name appears there but then shouldn't Brandon the Boastful's name and lineage appear as well?

    Not necessarily. We don't know the link between Torrhen-Brandon 1-Roderick-Brandon 2. There is no real need to include Brandon 2 with Torrhen and the others who are closer to the Conquest.


    2 hours ago, Loraq said:

    Also, Alaric Stark's wiki page says:


    Your observations were pertinent. You could create an account to edit the wiki directly, you know.

  20. On 12/23/2023 at 1:05 AM, Loraq said:

    1 - I don't know if it's only me who sees it like that, but the connecting lines between Rodrik Stark, Arya Flint and Lyarra Stark as well as those between Rickard, Lyarra and Benjen Stark in the family tree on House Stark's wiki page disappeared.

    I see it too. The code is correct, I don't know why the ligns don't appear on the tree anymore.


    On 12/23/2023 at 1:05 AM, Loraq said:

    2 - There's some discrepancies between the wiki pages of House Royce of Runestone and House Royce of the Gates of the Moon.



    On 12/23/2023 at 1:05 AM, Loraq said:

    3 - Catelyn Stark says that Jocelyn Stark married into a junior branch of House Royce (she never specifically said it was House Royce of the Gates of the Moon).

    I've linked to the House Royce of Runestone's page instead of the Gates of the Moon since we don't know if Raymar and Benedict were of the Gates of the Moon branch or another unnamed junior branch.

    Note: Catelyn says "Your father's father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch." So, while it doesn't confirm that Raymar's branch = Gates of the Moon's branch, it does tend that way.

  21. 16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

    Do we know who Aegon's walking goons are? The KG comes after. Is one of them Gwayne Hightower?

    They are a trio  of show-only characters we saw during the exterior shoot: Martin Reyne (Barney Fishwick), Eddard Waters (Tok Stephen) and Leon Estermont (Ralph Davis).

    Weirdly enough, the four actors who have been officially revealed back in April (Gayle Rankin as Alys Rivers, Abubakar Salim as Alyn of Hull, Simon Russell Beale as Simon Strong and Freddie Fox as Gwayne Hightower) do not appear in the teaser.

  • Create New...