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Rose of Red Lake

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  1. Rose of Red Lake

    The Starks

    The author making sure that oath breaking has consequences to the characters who do it is just him writing a realistic story. If there were no consequences it would be Disney’s Westeros. So I’m pretty certain that the Bolton’s and Frey’s will face consequences for THEIR actions too, eventually... But shouldn’t there be some moral lesson, even as there is a moral dilemma? It’s not like he’s trying to say to modern readers, “never break your oaths, or you’ll end up stabbed by your bannermen.” For one, that’s not really an interesting moral lesson, and two, it doesn’t seem like the authors style. Jaime being reviled is just the in-universe response. We know he’s reviled for his most heroic act, which was not blindly obeying the dude threatening to set off bombs on his own people. Even the people who dont obey the Starks are useful - that means the surviving Starks have to work harder to be worthy of loyalty. Why people commit atrocities is a deeper question that has persisted for a long time. It’s not very interesting to explore what happens when people don’t follow orders, the big question for the modern era is what happens when people follow them too well. Studies in social psychology and investigations into genocide have made strong caseS for blind obedience, as a main cause for inflicting violence. GRRM seems to be engaging in that tradition with Jaime, Tywin, Dany, and Varys’ riddle. He even went off about people willing to go along with Vietnam, asking “Why does anyone follow anyone?” It seems like he’s more interested in this stuff than shaming people for not following their loyalty oaths to the letter.
  2. Rose of Red Lake

    The Starks

    That just sounds like the dangers of hedomism and excess for people already in power. I'm talking about normal, everyday people who arent seeking a throne but have to (or think they have to) follow ridiculous orders. People in the Milgram experiment should have followed their conscious. The Starks still have a conscious, with power, but not too much (it can always be checked). And, a person can achieve absolute power and go crazy with it because people under them blindly obey. Blind obedience is helpful in limited contexts. Most of the time, its a detriment, particularly in this story.
  3. Rose of Red Lake

    The Starks

    Blind obedience to loyalty oaths is one cause of the Holocaust. Oathbreaking isnt morally wrong per se, its just that the author wanted to show that actions have consequences and characters have to face them. Yet people took that as the authors moral judgement. Its not always the same. We wanted more people to break oaths to Joffrey for instance. We dont want Jon to be cruel and cold to his siblings. We're fine with anyone who kills Ramsay. When the vast majority of readers dont care about the stupid oath, or want them to be broken - like wanting Jon to be less of a perfect white knight, not wanting Robb to marry into the Frey family - they're less likely to care about holding the oaths to the letter.
  4. Rose of Red Lake

    Is Ygritte a rapist?

    Yes, dubious consent at the very least. I dont think GRRM fully understands or is interested in exploring male rape as a concept in this instance though. It was the same with Dany and Drogo, person with power uses foreplay, and its all ok apparently! Even though the whole situation is coercive and they'd rather not, but they eventually ~fall in love~ Just icky overall.
  5. Rose of Red Lake

    Why Daenerys as the Mad Queen?

    Cersei, Joffrey and Tywin were the best characters on the show. Why whitewash any of her actions? Thats where the good drama is (which I'm sure GRRM will write better). Sometimes people with too much power commit atrocities, in the name of feel good slogans.Writing mass murder rationally, like the actions of someone who has to make "difficult choices," undermines the message of abuse of power. Abuse of power and mass murder is irrational and never a "difficult choice." Also, Dany is a better corollary for the tyrant of the modern era--not Cersei. We have problems right now with strongmen/women feeling that they are justified to do anything they want, in the name of the people, even if it means punishing factions who dont support them. And thats what Dany did. She punished people for not supporting her, and did it in the people's name. When populism becomes tyranny...
  6. Rose of Red Lake

    Daenerys & Mirri Maaz Duur

    If Dany’s loss of her home was meant to be “the same” as the Starks’, we would have read about it in real time, with Dany about the age of Viserys, when it happened. But because her loss is all in flashback and told through a dead characters memories, it introduces a lot more problems and pathologies for things to go wrong. Her dreams of Westeros are like Sansa’s dreams of Kings Landing, but this time instead of tea and lemon cakes it’s blood and murder so her “dreams” can come true. Imagine if Lyanna Mormont decided to declare war on Braavos, a place she’s never seen on a continent she’s never been to, because her dad and brother were rightfully killed and lost their castle there and she wants it back, even though she already has a throne of her own. Then, compare that to the Starks’ dream to reunite with their family at Winterfell. What even.
  7. Rose of Red Lake

    GRRM struggling how to show Daenerys' mental instability

    Humbled? Smiling? Soft? That doesn't seem to fit GRRMs view of dragons. I think it's kind of silly of the author to essentiallize characters to their sigils, but that's what he seems to be about, even if he throws in a few "against type" moments.
  8. Rose of Red Lake

    GRRM struggling how to show Daenerys' mental instability

    Extreme power at her disposal that is very easy to use, and I think Dany is a study in how authoritarian regimes wrap themselves in the guise of revolution. Orwell would approve. Madness doesnt even have to figure into it.
  9. Rose of Red Lake

    Daenerys & Mirri Maaz Duur

    She may think she killed him, but didnt. These folks dont know the magic as well as they think they do. Mirri did not sugar coat it for Dany by warning her, "some would say death is cleaner" but Dany still wanted to go ahead. In a narrative sense her determination to save Drogo's life had to come at some personal cost to Dany, she was going to have to pay for it whether now or later. Regardless of what happened price just means facing consequences which again...she doesn't want to do.
  10. Rose of Red Lake

    Daenerys & Mirri Maaz Duur

    Because he had similar traits as the "monsterous" babies from Maegor, Rhaenyra, and Daemon's children - born stillborn with serious birth defects. This, in addition to the Targaryen tendency for fertility issues and normal stillbirths as well. If the intent was to show that Mirri killed him I dont know why the author would muddy the waters in the histories to make us question if he was even a viable pregnancy/birth. We would need proof that Mirri caused the defects in the first place. That's difficult since the evidence is going in the other direction, toward it happening because of something already present in the blood of Targaryens. None of those dragon babies lived from previous Targaryens. The defects make the child non viable.
  11. Rose of Red Lake

    Daenerys & Mirri Maaz Duur

    I'd like more information too. Mirri says that when she learned the spell in her training she "paid dearly for it." What do you think that's about? Did the spell kill Mirri's child in the womb without her knowledge? If so Mirri could have tried to do that to Dany, but Rhaego's life would have been too weak, or non-existent, anyway to accomplish a full resurrection. I guess she could be "guilty" of intent without actually doing harm. Dany should have asked Mirri many more questions, like if Mirri had to pay a high price, would she have to as well? Sure, a village healer's life is worth more than a deformed dragon monster that was going to die anyway no matter what Mirri did.
  12. Rose of Red Lake

    Will Sansa learn in TWOW of fArya's marriage?

    She has to learn about Jeyne eventually, they are too connected storywise. I'm hoping that because she has free access to his office she might find some correspondence that gives her a clue. LF is getting careless.
  13. Rose of Red Lake

    Which are worse, Wildling, Ironborn or Dothraki?

    There are some individual leaders among each who are competitive for the worst person awards. Usually these are the people who push them to take on more than they can handle. They are defying their own cultural norms that establish limits on the scope of where they'll do violence. Like, the norm for each is to not to expand too far outside of their territory or to go too deep into the continent or stress their resources. Theon, Euron, Dany, are pushing people to their limits just for their own ambition. Mance is doing that too but at least there's a pragmatic reason involved (although he's just as full of himself as the rest).
  14. Rose of Red Lake

    Daenerys & Mirri Maaz Duur

    If Dany can’t handle some terrible bedside manner she’ll wilt like a lily in Westeros. Her husband was a piece of shit. Her child was likely already dead. She is deflecting her own actions all over that book.
  15. Rose of Red Lake

    Daenerys & Mirri Maaz Duur

    Mirri probably thought Dany could handle some hard truths about magical resurrection, and why people hated the Dothraki. Clearly she couldn’t. Dany burning her alive surprised her because she begged for her life.
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