Jump to content

silverwolf22

Members
  • Content count

    42
  • Joined

  • Last visited

Posts posted by silverwolf22


  1. 12 hours ago, frenin said:

    And in most modern governments the army are guided by a pack of rules that they can't break. Or it's treason. Those check on the executive branch that wields military  authourity are... A set of vows and  rules that the army is morally obliged to follow, just as in the case of the KG. 

     

    Well, i agree that it wasn't bad for him, Aerys had destroyed his life but it was purely revenge on an already dead guy.

    no it wasnt revenge jaime killed aerys to protect  kings landing from being burnt why is it that some people  are so willing to bend over backwards to ignore that and try to pretend jaime didnt kill aerys to protect kings landing

    He’d already killed the nearest pyromancer, but there were still other pyromancers who were in on the plot. He killed Aerys to make sure he couldn’t go and order another pyromancer to ignite the wildfire. And then he tracked down and killed the other pyromancers over the following days to make sure there was no one who might like to start a little fire. It’s easy enough to say, looking at what’s happened since, that Aerys could’ve been kept alive for capture by the rebels, but Jaime couldn’t see the future. He saw the situation in front of him at that moment, and he dealt with it. 


  2. On 12/29/2019 at 2:36 PM, Arthur Peres said:

    Barristan ended up serving a mad man by bad luck, he swore himself to a king he admired in Jahearys II, he could,'t predict that he would end up serving a sadistic, lunatic, that was Aerys.

    Jaime on the other hand choose by his own free will to serve Aerys for his own selfishs interests, knowing very well to what he was tying himself. Jaime is by no means a good person and not even himself would try to argue against it. He pushed Brandon from the tower, tried to kill Arya, stayed quiet while Tywin ordered the rape of his sister in law and then lied to his brother.

    there is no evidence that jaime was there when tywin ordered the rape of tysha all we know is that tywin told jaime to tell tyrion  that tysha was  a whore there is nothing to suggest that he knew about  the rape or what was going to happen/ would happen the attempt to blame what happened to tysha on jaime is bs  you are just assuming jaime was there to demonize jaime .     and  I cant fault jaime for lying to tyrion for if tywin was able to force tyrion to participate he would be able to get jaime to lie. and there is nothing to prove  that jaime was going to kill arya (do not give me but jaime said he might have done it people all the time think to themselves that ina situation they would have or would do something but end up actually not doing it.

    and pushing brandon off the tower I understand why he did it

    1. https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/game-of-thrones-season-3-characters_n_1854918?guccounter=1 :

    "Obviously a lot of people, when Jaime throws Bran out the window, and we like Bran, we've seen his good points, tend to think that makes Jaime a bad guy. But then you understand, if you understand the situation, if Bran goes back and tells what the saw, and is believed, Jaime will be put to death, his sister will be put to death, and there's an excellent chance that his own children will be put to death.

    So I said to my friend, what would you do if some other eight year old kid was in a position to say something and you knew that would mean the death of your own young daughter. And he said, that eight year old kid is dead! And this is what we would consider a moral man.

    So how do you make that choice? The abstract of the morality vs. the lives of your own children. I mean, I don't know that I'm a prostelitizer who says this is the answer to that, but I have to question the painful, difficult question, the difficulty of the choice, that's what I think makes powerful fiction."

    2. https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-242487/ :

    "At the same time, what Jaime did is interesting. I don’t have any kids myself, but I’ve talked with other people who have. Remember, Jaime isn’t just trying to kill Bran because he’s an annoying little kid. Bran has seen something that is basically a death sentence for Jaime, for Cersei, and their children – their three actual children. So I’ve asked people who do have children, “Well, what would you do in Jaime’s situation?” They say, “Well, I’m not a bad guy – I wouldn’t kill.” Are you sure? Never? If Bran tells King Robert he’s going to kill you and your sister-lover, and your three children. . . .

    Then many of them hesitate. Probably more people than not would say, “Yeah, I would kill someone else’s child to save my own child, even if that other child was innocent.” These are the difficult decisions people make, and they’re worth examining."

    Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon’s life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would. -AGOT Eddard XII


  3. On 1/3/2020 at 5:37 PM, Finley McLeod said:

    Well, he accepted Robert's pardon and all the while screwed his wife behind his back.  He is Kingsguard and he was betraying his king every night.  He boxed himself into a corner, got seen by a kid, and tried to murder that kid.  Worst of all, he swore to protect King Aerys and he murdered him.  

    killing  aerys was the right thing to do it was the finest act I

     

     


  4. 18 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

    let's see

    Let his brothers's wife be gang raped and lied about it, swear a oath to the KG with no intention whatsoever to keep it just to run away from a match his father made, pushed a 8 years old boy from a tower, tried to kill a 9 years old girl just because.

    of course his is not evil... he does not even need redemption.

     

    do not dare try to pin what happened to tysha on jaime that was all tywin and dont give me but jaime lied to tyrion about tysha being a whore if tywin can force tyrion to participate he can force jaime to lie ( especially since we dont know the conversation that happened ) given that there is no evidence that jaime knew at the time what tywin would have done. and grrm himself brings up whether o not pushing bran was a sign of immorality  and asking what would you choose  the life of someone you hardly know or of your family who you love ned out right has that thought process of what he would do in that position. jaime never tried to kill arya ( and lets be honest people can question what they would have done in what if scenarios when in reality they wouldnt have done it  ( and jaime doesnt really think much of himself)  @Arthur Peres  @frenin

     

    Quote

    This is an occasional reminder that Tywin Lannister was the sort of father who could make one son lie to the other about his wife, and make the other son participate in a gang rape.

    This is also an occasional reminder that when Jaime lied to Tyrion, he did not know Tywin was planning to have Tysha gang-raped and order Tyrion to participate. 

    This is an occasional reminder that Jaime didn’t know about the rape and still feels guilty, years later, for lying to Tyrion about his marriage.

    If Tyrion was a victim of his father’s depravities, then Jaime wasn’t an accomplice.

     


  5. https://jaimetheexplorer.tumblr.com/post/186207412429/sometimes-i-just-find-myself-staring-off-into#notes

    Quote

    tarthserjaime:

    samueltanders:

    samueltanders:

    Sometimes I just .. find myself staring off into the distance thinking about the intricate web of parallels between jaime and brienne’s lives that grrm has written and how dumb and dumber just did absolutely nothing with it.

    i mEAN

    • jaime joined the kingsguard because of his love for cersei so he could be near her. Brienne joined renly’s kingsguard because of her love for renly, so she could be near him.
    • They were both absolutely devoted to c/r who used this to their advantage. C manipulating jaime getting him to do what she wants and r using brienne as his personal shield even though he didnt care about her at all because he knew all she wanted was to be near him and protect him.
    • Growing up both loved the idea of knights, knightly values and honour but it’s ripped from them. Jaime when he does the right thing in stopping aerys bc of the wildfire and after two years of listening to aerys rape his wife without being allowed to stop it. Currently on going with brienne during her travels to find sansa and her LS storyline.
    • Both have their ideals of being a knight upended by the other. Brienne after discovering Jaime’s true reasons for killing aerys and jaime after just generally being around brienne making him WANT to be a better knight once again because of her actions and refusing to shed blood at riverrun because of his oath to Cat.
    • Jaime killed aerys and was labelled kingslayer, nobody asked or cared why he did it. Brienne was labelled kingslayer after renly died, nobody (except jaime) believed her when she claimed it was a shadow and that she didnt do it.
    • Lady Stoneheart is obviously going to be brienne’s aerys. Its going to challenge every ideal shes had just like jaime wirh aerys. She’s likely going to kill her, and have to deal with that fall out much similar way to jaime.
    • Jaime’s constant battle in his mind about being a father, wanting to be a father but not being allowed to. Brienne wanting to be to be lady of tarth and a mother, she actually wants to be that despite what the dumb show tells you.
    • They both were happy to be heir to their houses but Jaime gave the rock up for c. Brienne seemingly gave up tarth to be in renly’s kingsguard, like I don’t think she expects she will get to go back even though she thinks about it and her father a lot.
    • They both beat the shit out of Ron connington.

    #sometimes i feel like grrm is writing briennes story like jaime but 15 years later and brienne has jaime when jaime had nobody

    •  

     


  6. https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/05/game-of-thrones-brienne-ser-duncan-the-tall-george-rr-martin

    https://goodqueenaly.tumblr.com/post/143163889498/how-would-maekar-and-egg-have-managed-one-of-his#notes

    Quote

    Well, I presume Dunk was hanging around King’s Landing for at least some time during the reign of Maekar. He wasn’t a Kingsguard yet, probably - the first mention we have of him as a knight of the Kingsguard is in 236 AC, during the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion - but he was still Egg’s sworn shield. After he became king, I presume Maekar called his fourthborn son to court, to learn the business of government (perhaps realizing at this point that Daeron and Aerion were lost causes). Egg himself was married at this point, to Betha Blackwood, so there would be no more knight-and-squire adventures for the two, but Dunk was probably around at least for Egg naming his first son after his old friend (sometime between 220 and 224 AC). 

    Now, it seems to me that Egg married Betha quietly, without first getting permission from Maekar; a Blackwood isn’t so low a match for a relatuvely low-ranking prince, but the marriage is emphasized for its unorthodox basis in love and the fact that it was only allowed because Aegon was not close to inheriting. If Princess Daella had been betrothed to Egg - and this might have been the case - she would have suddenly found herself short a fiance, with no apparent other prospects (save perhaps Aerion, if he wasn’t already married to Princess Daenora). In her early 20s - past the usual age for highborn maidens to be wed in Westeros - Daella might have been bored and frustrated at her lack of prospects. Dunk is never spoken of as handsome, but he is very tall (something I can personally attest to being very attractive) and has a way of charming ladies. Point being, it wouldn’t be the craziest thing to me to imagine the two of them having a clandestine affair while the two were living in the Red Keep - Dunk as Aegon’s sworn shield, Daella as a royal princess.

    When King Maekar would have found out about it, however - especially if Daella revealed she was pregnant - he would certainly have been quite upset. A deflowered highborn girl loses a substantial amount of worth on the marriage market, and having it be revealed that his daughter had had an affair with a hedge knight would have been a scandal that grimly dutiful Maekar simply could not tolerate. He had already seen his sons becoming laughingstocks in the Targaryen dynasty; he would not suffer his daughter being mocked as no better than a whore. So I think he would have tried to hush up the affair by wedding her to the soonest available ranking lord - as it happened, the Lord of Tarth. Cersei comments on a seemingly similar (although factually different) situation:

    “Also,” Lord Qyburn said, “the daughter of the Knight of Spottswood was betrothed quite unexpectedly to Lord Estermont, our friends in Dorne inform us. She was sent to Greenstone that very night, and it is said she and Estermont have already wed.”

    “A bastard in the belly would explain that.” Cersei toyed with a lock of her hair.

    The Tarths are not on face a bad match: from an ancient Stormlands family, proud and storied, with blood ties to the Durrandon kings and Baratheon lords, a Lord of Tarth is a perfectly acceptable match for a Targaryen princess. If two Targaryens could wed into the Baratheon vassal family of the Penroses, a princess could wed a Tarth without great comment. 

    The Queen Regent (NFriel)

    @Lord Varys

    @James Steller

    https://goodqueenaly.tumblr.com/post/151381380498/i-may-be-following-the-theory-incorrectly-but-i

    Quote

    Dunk had a relationship (illicit?) with one of Egg’s sisters (I would suspect Daella, who was older than Aegon and thus closer to Dunk’s age; also Dunk/Daella is the sort of relationship alliteration GRRM enjoys https://nobodysuspectsthebutterfly.tumblr.com/post/97295140763/ive-had-a-look-through-your-tags-etc-and-didnt  ), and after she became pregnant, she was quickly married to the lord of Tarth to hush it up. (He may have known he was infertile, or was elderly and without heirs, and that plus the honor of marrying a Targaryen princess would be enough to seal the deal.)
    I wonder … Could Dunk have gone with Princess Daella to serve as a (temporary) sworn shield upon her marriage to Lord Tarth? Perhaps Maekar, furious that his son would break his betrothal with his sister (what he hinted at in TSS) and secretly wed Betha Blackwood, decided to break up Dunk and Egg, keeping his son at court and sending Dunk away to watch over Daella (a little like Viserys I splitting up Harwin Strong and his daughter to end the rumors of the princes’ bastardy). Sometime before or after the wedding, Dunk knocks up Daella, with Lord Tarth none the wiser. That would explain why the shield is in the armory - a memory of the famed knight who served Lady Tarth - and still keep the Tarths unaware of the secret of Selwyn’s predecessor. Of course, how GRRM would write a Dunk and Egg tale with no Egg is a wholly different question, and I don’t know if it makes sense for Maekar to send a non-KG (presuming Dunk was not at this point, which is probably a fair guess) to watch his daughter.

     

    or of course the likelihood that maekar didnt know it was duncan who knocked daella up and married daella  to the lord tarth to cover up her pregnancy with  duncan being sent with her  so his shield was left at the tarth ( duncan being at tarth is the only way duncans shield being at the armory makes sense  unless daella took it with her ) ( and it was stated that brienne does have some targ blood


  7. https://makerkenzie.tumblr.com/post/185834157295/cersei-is-wrong-ymb-edition

    Quote

    In terms of prognosticating Maggy’s Prophecy, I’ve always been more invested in the Valonqar clause*, but to the extent that we talk about the YMB(Q), I’ve long been a fan of the idea of multiple women filling the YMBQ role. Sansa, Brienne, Margaery, Dany, Arianne Martell. They all cast her down and take her dearest in different ways.

    But right now? My first choice for Younger More Beautiful is Brienne. JUST Brienne. And the reason why I like her for the YMB is precisely because it would give us one more chance to point and laugh at Cersei for getting so invested in her unchecked assumptions about Maggy’s choice of words. Cersei is So! Very! Sure! she’s up against a younger and more beautiful QUEEN fucking her shit up.

    All Maggy said was “until there comes ANOTHER, young and more beautiful, to cast you down and” blah blah you know the tune. She didn’t say anything about another QUEEN. She just said…someone else, who’s younger and more beautiful, and we all know “beautiful” can mean a lot of things. Cersei thinks it refers to recognized Westerosi standards of physical beauty, so she’s all focused on Margaery but of course she hasn’t yet met Dany.

    She remembered the maid of Tarth, a huge ugly shambling thing who dressed in man’s mail. Jaime would never abandon me for such a creature.

    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Beauty means different things to different people. And wouldn’t it be funny if the girl who is mockingly called Brienne the Beauty ends up being the “younger and more beautiful” one who eats Cersei’s lunch? She doesn’t need to be a queen.

    (I reserve the right to predict her being a provincial queen later, in the endgame. Cersei won’t be around to see that, though.)

    *Euron Greyjoy’s still the best candidate for Valonqar! Cersei’s been so focused on her BROTHER being the killer, she’s never considered Maggy never actually told her what “valonqar” means.

     

    (not to mention the prophecy it says the valonqar not her valonqar

    https://makerkenzie.tumblr.com/post/185869508905/who-gives-a-fuck-what-cersei-thinks-of-the-ymb

    Quote

    Since I hit on Brienne as the singular YMB, I’ve also realized there are some things that aren’t really necessary in the general prophecy fulfillment.

    Honestly, I don’t care whether Cersei understands how she made the prophecy a self-fulfilling one.

    All the ways in which Brienne casts Cersei down and takes all she hold dear may not be apparent until long after Cersei’s dead. Fine by me. Cersei may not even get the message that Brienne the Beauty is the “younger and more beautiful” one. What matters is that we see it.

    Same thing with the Valonqar. No matter who the killer is (and my money is still on Euron), Cersei may not connect the dots before her heart stops. What matters is that we, the audience, get to connect the dots. We see how Cersei’s attitude and actions led the killer’s hands to her pale white throat. That’s what makes a good story. 

     

     

     

     

     

     

    not to mention as gray area stated that when jojen made a prophechecy involving drowning it turned out to be the ironborn that caused it 

    https://tearsdrownedyou.tumblr.com/post/166308805951/question-it-is-commonly-believed-that-jamie-is

    Quote
      • From the day Cersei heard Maggy the Frog’s predictions on her life and, especially, death, she has been haunted by the idea that her brother would kill her. And if Maggy had actually said to her, “…and your younger brother will wrap his hands around your pale white throat,” it would have had the same effect on Cersei, and still allowed for the confusion around the second twin as a younger sibling. That Maggy insisted on using the Valyrian form of that noun, and nothing else, and she ignored Cersei’s request for a translation, suggests that Cersei has been fooled into thinking the killer must be one of her brothers. Maggy, as well as the Tyroshi Dwarf-Murderer, are behaving very, very strangely for trying to communicate a concept as simple as a younger sibling. The simplest explanation for their linguistic choices, especially the guy who isn’t trying to mess with Cersei’s head, is that they’re saying something that doesn’t translate to the Common Tongue. 

        *Per the Dothraki wiki’s page of High Valyrian vocabulary, valonqar also means a younger male cousin via father’s brother or mother’s sister, and the word for “twin” is idaña.

    Quote

    in The Forsaken' chapter GRRM read from The Winds of Winter with its description of Aeron's visions, including Euron Greyjoy sitting on the Iron Throne and'Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire. Dwarves capered for their amusement, male and female, naked and misshapen, locked in carnal embrace, biting and tearing at each other as Euron and his mate laughed and laughed and laughed…'

    Looking back at a quote in AFFC about part of Maggy the Frog’s prophecy to Cersei,‘And when your tears have DROWNED you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your PALE WHITE throat and choke the life from you.'I put the words that stood out to me thinking about this in bold. Cersei’s tears will have drowned her, like the Ironborn’s religious initiation.  like in jojens dream 

    Quote

    "It is the sea that comes." 
    "The sea?" 
    "I dreamed that the sea was lapping all around Winterfell. I saw the black waves crashing against the gates and towers, and then the salt water came flowing over the walls and filled the castle. Drowned men were floating in the yard. When I first dreamed the dream, back at Greywater, I didn't know their faces, but now I do. That Alebelly is one, the guard who called our names at the feast. Your septon's another. Your smith as well."

    the parts about the sea coming and drowned men was a prophecy fulfilled by the ironborn

    when jojen had the vision of certain people at winterfell drowning it was caused by the ironborn 

     

    The shadow in woman’s form is described as tall, we know she can be terrible, and I believe Cersei is described as tall in the books (jaime is pretty tall)

    and the shadow’s hands are 'alive with pale white fire’, a fire described the same way as Cersei’s throat (pale white) in the prophecy.

    (tearsdrownedyou is makerkenzie's sideblog

    https://tearsdrownedyou.tumblr.com/post/165591530826/how-does-one-drown-in-her-own-tears

    Quote
      • Now let’s get into that phrase in the prophecy, just before the valonqar: “When your tears have drowned you.”

        At first glance, this seems like a florid, though unremarkable way to describe Cersei’s grief at losing her children.

        I think that’s redundant, though. The only specificity in this phrase is that it tells us Cersei will live to see all three of her children in golden shrouds. That she’ll be devastated at losing her babies, hardly warrants a prophecy.

        Moreover, the verb tense is an interesting choice. “When your tears have drowned you” implies a state of completion. It suggests, at least, a certain passage of time following the death of Cersei’s last child. It speaks of a process that has run its course before the event of Cersei’s death.

        Most of all, though, I think that process is something much more sinister than a mother grieving the loss of her children.

        What do tears represent? Crying is not a self-injuring process; it is just the opposite. It is a normal, healthy, physiological response to stress. Tears are a sign of the body looking after itself in a moment of suffering. In ASOIAF, tears are occasionally coded as a weapon that a woman can use against others, but never are they expected to harm the woman herself. The image of Cersei being drowned by her own tears is a perversion. It suggests a process of enforced trauma beyond the pain of losing her children.

        Taking something that should be comforting and healing, and using it as a way to destroy someone? That sounds like what Euron does to people. That’s pretty much his entire value system boiled down to a precious turn of phrase. It could even be a fancy way to express what Euron is literally doing to Aeron in TWOW, as he uses the saltwater of the sea to dominate and degrade his brother the drowned priest.

        Euron is the one who will cause Cersei to drown in her own tears, and he will be the one to choke the life from her.

    https://tearsdrownedyou.tumblr.com/post/165447801071/victarion-has-no-luck-with-wives

     

    Quote
      • For a much more revealing example of Euron’s enthusiasm for fucking shit up, let’s take a look at what he did to Victarion.

        First, let’s get a little overview of what Victarion brings to the table:

        “When Balon was wed, it was me he sent to Harlaw to bring him back his bride. I led his longships into many a battle, and never lost but one. The first time Balon took a crown, it was me sailed into Lannisport to singe the lion’s tail. The second time, it was me he sent to skin the Young Wolf should he come howling home. All you’ll get from me is more of what you got from Balon. That’s all I have to say.”

        Martin, George R.R.. A Feast for Crows (A Song of Ice and Fire, Book 4) (p. 307). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

        What this shows us, at first glance, is that Victarion is a terrible politician. This is hardly the way to rally the troops. Underneath this weak-sauce pitch, however, is that Victarion cares about family. He respects the traditions surrounding family relationships. He sees himself, and expects others to see him, as a guy who looks out for his family. He was a dutiful brother to Balon and he thinks that’s important.

        So what did Euron do to make Victarion despise him?

        “I burnt the lion’s fleet,” Victarion insisted. “With mine own hands I flung the first torch onto his flagship.”

        “The Crow’s Eye hatched the scheme.” Asha put her hand upon his arm. “And killed your wife as well … did he not?”

        Balon had commanded them not to speak of it, but Balon was dead. “He put a baby in her belly and made me do the killing. I would have killed him too, but Balon would have no kinslaying in his hall. He sent Euron into exile, never to return …”

        “… so long as Balon lived?”

        Victarion looked at his fists. “She gave me horns. I had no choice.” Had it been known, men would have laughed at me, as the Crow’s Eye laughed when I confronted him. “She came to me wet and willing,” he had boasted. “It seems Victarion is big everywhere but where it matters.” But he could not tell her that.

        Martin, George R.R.. A Feast for Crows (A Song of Ice and Fire, Book 4) (p. 298). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

        Review: Euron raped Victarion’s third wife and got her pregnant. (We don’t have to take Euron at his word that she consented.) To let her live would have destroyed Victarion’s social standing among the Ironborn, so he beat his wife to death. Balon forced Euron to get lost and never return to the islands as long as Balon lived. That was the alternative to killing Euron, because no man is as accursed as the kinslayer. (Killing your wife because she’s been impregnated by someone else is another matter.)

        The incident haunts Victarion years later; he loved that woman, and he hasn’t touched another woman since he fed his last wife to the crabs. Euron attacked his brother by poisoning his self-image as a family man.

        This is what I think “when your tears have drowned you” means. Euron takes something that should be, at least, benign, and he turns it into a nightmare. Euron makes people drown in their tears.

     

    https://tearsdrownedyou.tumblr.com/post/165415758056/what-about-the-books-though

    Quote
      • We might argue: well, sure, Euron’s buddied up with Cersei on Game of Thrones, but that doesn’t mean he’ll go anywhere near her in the books. 

        Here’s a snippet from The Forsaken sample chapter in TWOW:

        The dreams were even worse the second time. He saw the longships of the Ironborn adrift and burning on a boiling blood­-red sea. He saw his brother on the Iron Throne again, but Euron was no longer human. He seemed more squid than man, a monster fathered by a kraken of the deep, his face a mass of writhing tentacles. Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire. Dwarves capered for their amusement, male and female, naked and misshapen, locked in carnal embrace, biting and tearing at each other as Euron and his mate laughed and laughed and laughed…

        “Long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire.” That sounds like Cersei. Dwarves capering for their amusement? That sounds like something Cersei would enjoy. 

        I think this is a positive sign that Euron’s teaming up with Cersei is not a show-only invention. He’ll become Cersei’s new enabler in TWOW, and she’ll be a useful idiot in his campaign to set the entire world on fire, and when she’s no longer useful to him, he’ll wrap his hands around her pale white throat and choke the life from her.

        Not before he shows her that everything in her life is worthless, though. Before he kills her, he’ll show her how it feels to drown in her own tears.

    Quote

    A Feast for Crows - Samwell V
     "Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy." Marwyn turned his head and spat a gob of red phlegm onto the floor. "Not that I would trust it. Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time." He chewed a bit. "Still . . ."
     

    and once again the prophecy goes THE valonqar not your/her valonqar the prophecy isnt limited to just cersei's biological younger brothers


  8. https://nobodysuspectsthebutterfly.tumblr.com/post/137274070973/thefinknottle-reblogged-your-post-i-absolutely

    Quote

    I have the sense that the nature of wildfire is not commonly known. Tyrion’s brief education from the Alchemists probably puts him in the 99th percentile in the word for knowledge of how wildfire works. The Alchemists don’t even understand it really, they are totally surprised their spells start working better.

    So I think Varys knows that there is a lot of wildfire hanging around but he just says, “oh yeah, left over from crazy old Aerys, better not touch that.” Same with Jamie. He knows the wildfire is there, but since he’s under the impression that an alchemist needs to light it for it to burn - and killed the all the alchemists that knew about it- he doesn’t think it is an imminent threat. It makes me think of the tragic city and factory fires of the late 19th and early 20th century, so much loss of life that could’ve been prevented by the safety measures of today that didn’t even occur to the people of the time.

    Anyway, when King’s Landing blows I think it will demonstrate that Varys, master of knowing everything, gets tunnel vision too. That the man who wanted nothing, who was slave to no emotion, was exactly that. His own personal brand of justice/prosperity/vengeance for Westeros doesn’t do Westeros any good in the end. I think Varys sees himself as the opposite of Kevan, a bad man serving a good cause. But the cause is really the same crap as before.

    You know, this makes absolute sense. The question as to why Jaime hasn’t done anything all this time has bothered me for a while. But if both he and Varys don’t know wildfire can explode on its own, especially if it’s aged… wow. Yeah. Oh, this is going to add extra pain to Jaime’s failure, god.

    And you’re also entirely correct about Varys. That’s one whose downfall is going to be so poetically ironic, in so many ways…

     

     

    https://nobodysuspectsthebutterfly.tumblr.com/post/175047641588/did-jaime-not-tell-anyone-about-the-wildfire

    Quote

    What the pyromancer Hallyne told Tyrion is apparently not public knowledge, but a trade secret:

    “Why doesn’t it seep into the clay as well?”
    “Oh, but it does,” said Hallyne. […] “As it ages, the substance grows ever more, hmmmm, fickle, let us say. Any flame will set it afire. Any spark. Too much heat and jars will blaze up of their own accord. It is not wise to let them sit in sunlight, even for a short time. Once the fire begins within, the heat causes the substance to expand violently, and the jars shortly fly to pieces. If other jars should happen to be stored in the same vicinity, those go up as well, and so—” 

    –ACOK, Tyrion V

    Nobody else mentions these properties of aged wildfire, so we can presume that nobody else knows, certainly not Jaime. So Jaime, focused on removing the danger of Aerys’s plan to blow up King’s Landing, killed the pyromancer Rossart, killed Aerys, and a few days later hunted down and killed the other pyromancers who had worked on the wildfire plot (Garigus and Belis), and presumably thought it was safe to leave everything where it was. Jaime thinks wildfire needs to be removed from its jar and catch fire to burn, and he thinks the cache locations of warehouses and cellars are safe, where nobody knows about them – he doesn’t know that wildfire seeps into the clay jar it’s stored in over time, he doesn’t know that heat or even jostling could set them off and cause an explosive chain reaction.

     


  9.  

    Jon is a True Born Targaryen who thought he was a bastard, raised by his Uncle who loved him.

    Tyrion is Bastard that thought he was a True Born, raised by a Cousin who hated him.

    not to mention jon being born via a consensual relationship while other people believed his father raped his mother. tyrion being born via a rape while people believed it was through a consensual relationship ( tywin and joannas relationship)

    Then their is the symmetry with Jaime, as they are half brothers that killed the other's father.

     

     

    tyrion claimed that dwarves are all bastards in their fathers eyes" and called himself hugor hill while he was disguising himself.  and would cause an identity crisis for tyrion which is what I expect for jon when he learns that he is rhaegar and lyannas child

    rhaegar and lyanna got married ( even if rhaegard didnt have his marriage to elia annulled bigamy is   not unheard of with targaryens  like with aegon and they could have gotten married in front of the heart tree)

    Quote

    We know that Jon is legitimate from the fact that Ned had to fight the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. 

     


    and its likely that tyrion will be the 3rd head of the dragon since tyrion is a main character and grrrm likes him and has stated that  

    Quote

     

    Three heads of the dragon... yes... but the third will not necessarily BE a Targaryen..."

     

     

     

    and if tyrion is the bastard child of aerys he wouldnt be a targaryen but he would have just as much targ blood as jon (faegon is a blackfyre  (all the evidence points to that and the claim that varys is for the realm is  just bs

    https://rainhadaenerys.tumblr.com/post/184972276772/i-dont-get-why-some-people-still-buy-book#notes

    Quote

    : I dont get why some people still buy ( book) varys's line of I do everything for the realm when he has shown that he doesnt heck he killed kevin because he would have healed the wounds to the realm. also your thoughts on the faegon is actually a blackfyre ( and illyrios son with sena ) theory ( and the possibility of varys also being a blackfyre of the female line like sena ) ( grayarea made videos on the topic)

    Yes, Varys cares about the people my ass. He killed Kevan, he served the Mad King and fed his paranoia, and Stannis says that the rot in the realm started with Varys. Varys is a villain that just wants to put his perfect prince in power so he can manipulate him.

    Aegon is clearly a Blackfyre. First, because why wouldn’t Illyrio tell Dany and Viserys about him, or at least tell Doran and his family? If Elia made a deal to save Aegon, why didn’t she try to save Rhaenys as well? And why didn’t Elia tell anyone about this supposed plan (she could have written a letter to her family and Varys could have delivered it to them so that they would know Aegon survived)? Why is the Golden Company (that was always loyal to the Blackfyres) help a Targaryen prince? Especially when we consider that Viserys asked for the Golden Company’s help and was rejected,  (they laughed in his face) it makes no sense for them to suddenly want to help some other Targaryen. And then we also have other clues: Illyrio’s wife (who had golden and silver hair), the fact that Illyrio’s house has children’s clothes but there seems to be no sign of children in his house, the fact that they’re travelling with a septa that has stretch marks from a pregnancy, all seems to point out that Aegon is Illyrio’s son. Illyrio even says this:

    “She will, or she will not.” Illyrio bit the egg in half. “I told you, my little friend, not all that a man does is done for gain. Believe as you wish, but even fat old fools like me have friends, and debts of affection to repay.”

    Liar, thought Tyrion. There is something in this venture worth more to you than coin or castles. - Tyrion II ADWD

    What are these “debts of affection” that are making Illyrio care about the Iron Throne in Westeros? To me, it’s probably the fact that Aegon is his son. There’s also another quote that implies that Illyrio has some affection for Aegon:

    “There is a gift for the boy in one of the chests. Some candied ginger. He was always fond of it.” Illyrio sounded oddly sad. - Tyrion III ADWD

    As for Varys being a Blackfyre, it’s possible, though I don’t think we have as much evidence, so I can’t say for sure. I’ve seen somewhere a theory that the reason he is bald is not because he’s an eunuch, but to hide silver hair, just like Egg used to do when travelling with Dunk.

     

     

    not to mention the scene with the iron dragon at first it was black iron but the lord who was a targ supporter saw it as a form of support for the blackfyres but it was taken down and it went red with rust   over time like how a blackfyre under the guise of a  targ. not to mention the line about fake dragons etc

     

    who barely has any targ blood left and will  not be able to ride a dragon) (and tyrion, dany ,and jon all 3 of their mothers died giving birth to them

    https://hamliet.tumblr.com/post/185059524684/i-really-am-waiting-to-see-jon-react-badly-to-his

    Quote

    Yeah. The whole thing about Jon and Dany’s arcs in ASOIAF is that they are, at their core, about identity, about people searching for belonging and home. Jon’s whole identity is stemming from the belief that he’s a bastard, and specifically Ned Stark’s bastard. He’s very much like Ned in a lot of ways. Daenerys’s identity is based in the belief that she’s the last Targaryen and therefore is destined to rule, but what she dreams of is the house with the red door and lemon trees. 

    Finding out that both these foundations of who they are, the things that have driven many of their decisions, aren’t true is probably going to shake both of them. (Though I think Daenerys is going to have some practice with another Targaryen through f!Aegon and it won’t go well.) Plus, if Dany does set off the wildfyre and be viewed as a Mad Queen when she never intended to cause mass slaughter… well, it might make her rethink a) fire and blood, her family’s house words, and b) her desire for the Iron Throne, because she needs to think about whether she wants to be like her father or not, and the story probably isn’t going to give her both the throne and being different from him, and this isn’t a new line of thinking from me. 

    As for Jon… finding out his father lied to him, Catelyn was horrible to him for false reasons, and that he’s probably Azor Ahai or the Prince who was Promised and by the way he’s been assassinated too so maybe the whole leadership thing is kind of failing, oh and that I’m nervous for Val post Jon’s death, and that people who are resurrected in ASOIAF struggle to regain humanity… well, I think Jon’s going to have an identity crisis and be in a very bad place during TWOW/early ADOS. 

     

    @orderofthegreenhand

     

    Quote

    Then there's the continued juxtapositions and parallels between Ned and Tywin. Both were best friends to the King and their Hand who resigned over a disagreement. Both hid a bastard from the king on the order of their loved one. Both basically ruled in the King's name. Depending on how you look at it, Tywin treated Tyrion as terrible as his other kids drawing a parallel to Ned who treated Jon pretty much the same as he could without offending Catelyn, or he treated him badly because of killing Joanna while Ned doesn't hold it against Jon.

     


  10. 10 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

    Crazy Map Guy here. I got all jelly that many candidates for the Pink Letter's author have had their arguments presented ... but my girl Mel never got any real shout outs.
    I listed parts of my Mel theory IN one of the hundred pages IN one of the hundred threads in regards to the Pink Letter ... but Mel will get the front page here. 
    So enjoy!

    THE SHORT STORY:

    Melisandre wrote the Pink Letter to stop Jon from going to Hardhome because she believed it was a lost cause & Jon will die there.
    If Jon never returned from Hardhome, Mel would not know what to do about her R'hllor visions of Jon.
    Even though Mel's prank succeeded in stopping Jon from going to Hardhome, she also expected Jon to come speak to her after he received the letter.
    But then Jon does something stupid and gets himself killed.


    First, Jon should have gone to Melisandre and talk to her about this letter.
    The second important thing Jon should of done after receiving news that Arya is no longer with the Boltons is to FIND ARYA! ... NOT go pick a fight with the Boltons.
    Jon Snow truly knew nothing.

    Essentially Mel's Prank is one of those pranks you pull on a friend, but then they do something unexpectedly stupid & almost get themselves killed. I'm sure we have all been there before in our real lives. :P
    Hopefully no one died like Jon did in the books.

    So in summary, everything in the Pink Letter is FALSE. Mel being the author has a simple motive and we only need TWO assumptions:

    • Stannis at Crofter's Village sending a raven to update Melisandre at Castle Black about the arrival of Arya Stark (reasonable assumption)
    • Stannis, Mel and Jon have mistaken the name "Reek" as Arya's nickname (case explained further below)

    In TWOW, I predict that we will get the only POV available at the Wall: Melisandre ... where she panics and we hear her confess to the prank in her thoughts. She'll probably sacrifice Monster (Craster/Gilly's son) to revive Jon Snow through R'hllor.
    In ADOS, I believe Jon's baby swap, Mel's prank & Jon's first resurrection would accidentally prevent the world from annihilation. But that theory is for another time ... just note that Jon has love/hate relationships with redheaded women kissed by fire.

     

    THE LONG STORY:

    Jon talks to Selyse about going to Hardhome. Selyse approves the ranging thinking Jon will die and the Nights Watch will get another commander.

     Jon: "I will not ask my men to do what I would not do myself. I mean to lead the ranging [to Hardhome]."
    "How bold of you," said the queen. "We approve. Afterward some bard will make a stirring song about you, no doubt, and we shall have a more prudent lord commander."

    {Jon XIII ADWD}

     

    After Jon leaves the room, Mel tries to convince Jon to not go.

     "Selyse has the right of this, Lord Snow. Let them die. You cannot save them. Your ships are lost—"
    "Six remain. More than half the fleet."
    "Your ships are lost. All of them. Not a man shall return. I have seen that in my fires."
    "Your fires have been known to lie."
    "I have made mistakes, I have admitted as much, but—"
    "A grey girl on a dying horse. Daggers in the dark. A promised prince, born in smoke and salt. It seems to me that you make nothing but mistakes, my lady. Where is Stannis? What of Rattleshirt and his spearwives? Where is my sister?"
    "All your questions shall be answered. Look to the skies, Lord Snow. And when you have your answers, send to me. Winter is almost upon us now. I am your only hope."
    "A fool's hope." Jon turned and left her.

    {Jon XIII ADWD}

    So Mel writes a fake letter to Jon, answering Jon's questions of "Where is Stannis? What of Rattleshirt and his spearwives? Where is my sister?" and uses f-Ramsay to provoke Jon to face South, instead of facing North to Hardhome & his fruitless death.

     

    Aside from trying to save Jon from Hardhome, Mel HATES the fact that she has to chase Jon ... like teenagers playing their foolish lovers' games and hoping their crush would text them first.

     Mel's thoughts:
    It was Jon Snow she needed, not fried bread and bacon, but it was no use sending Devan to the lord commander. He would not come to her summons. Snow still chose to dwell behind the armory, in a pair of modest rooms previously occupied by the Watch's late blacksmith. Perhaps he did not think himself worthy of the King's Tower, or perhaps he did not care. That was his mistake, the false humility of youth that is itself a sort of pride. It was never wise for a ruler to eschew the trappings of power, for power itself flows in no small measure from such trappings.
    The boy was not entirely naive, however. He knew better than to come to Melisandre's chambers like a supplicant, insisting she come to him instead should she have need of words with him. And oft as not, when she did come, he would keep her waiting or refuse to see her. That much, at least, was shrewd. 

    {Melisandre I ADWD}

     

    Mel's second reason to write the Pink Letter is to make Jon come to her. Before the Pink Letter, she got excited when Jon engages the conversation first ... like your boy/girl crush texting you first.

    Jon: Only then did [Jon] seem to notice Melisandre. "My lady. Walk with me, if you would."
    Mel: AT LAST. "If it please the lord commander."

    {Melisandre I ADWD}


    Let's review the Pink Letter for the 9,999th time in {Jon XIII ADWD}:

    "Tell his red whore" is Mel trying to hide herself as the writer, but also trying to get Jon to come to see her again.

    The Paper Curl Theory:
    You guys ready for something ground-breaking that was never mentioned for 8 years since 2011 ADWD? 
    One of our biggest clues of foreshadowing that GRRM wrote and that we over-looked are the paragraphs just before the letter, and just after the letter.
    Just before:
    Bastard, was the only word written outside the scroll. No Lord Snow or Jon Snow or Lord Commander. Simply Bastard. And the letter was sealed with a smear of hard pink wax. "You were right to come at once," Jon said. You were right to be afraid. He cracked the seal, flattened the parchment, and read.
    Just after:
    "SNOW?" said Tormund Giantsbane. "You look like your father's bloody head just rolled out o' that paper."

    Unrolling a recently dry parchment ... can still remain flat
    Unrolling an aged moist parchment ... would keep curling, after it dries up

    Jon flattens the Pink Letter, but the Pink Letter NEVER curled back. This parchment allegedly came from a raven in a SNOW storm. The parchment would be wet. Even if it dried up over time, it will maintain its curl.
    This means the Pink Letter was written LOCALLY at Castle Black, away from moisture.

    "When he was done, Tormund whistled. "Har. That's buggered, and no mistake. What was that about Mance? Has him in a cage, does he? How, when hundreds saw your red witch burn the man?"
    That was Rattleshirt, Jon almost said. That was sorcery. A glamor, she called it. "Melisandre … look to the skies, she said." He set the letter down. "A raven in a storm. She saw this coming." When you have your answers, send to me."

    "He sat the letter down" BUT Jon doesn't notice that the parchment does not curl up.

    A few paragraphs before the Pink Letter, GRRM wrote this:

    "He has a little red cock to go with all that red hair, that's what he has. Raymund Redbeard and his sons died at Long Lake, thanks to your bloody Starks and the Drunken Giant. Not the little brother. Ever wonder why they called him the Red Raven?" Tormund's mouth split in a gap-toothed grin. "First to fly the battle, he was. 'Twas a song about it, after. The singer had to find a rhyme for craven, so …" He wiped his nose. "If your queen's knights want those girls o' his, they're welcome to them."

    "A raven in the storm. She saw this coming"
    But GRRM gave us this formula raven<=>craven
    "A [craven] in the storm. [Mel] saw this coming"  
    Mel was too craven or too cowardly to come to Jon with her true intentions.

    Also:
    When you have your answers, send to me
    Jon is thinking about Mel telling him to come to her when he gets his answer. Jon knows he should go Selyse first and then Mel ... but he made a public announcement & was assassinated before he had a chance to see Mel.

    "I will send for ale," Jon said, distracted. Melisandre was gone, he realized, and so were the queen's knights. I should have gone to Selyse first. She has the right to know her lord is dead. "You must excuse me. I'll leave you to get them drunk."
    [...]
    Horse and Rory fell in beside Jon as he left the Shieldhall. I should talk with Melisandre after I see the queen, he thought. If she could see a raven in a storm, she can find Ramsay Snow for me. Then he heard the shouting … and a roar so loud it seemed to shake the Wall. "That come from Hardin's Tower, m'lord," Horse reported. He might have said more, but the scream cut him off. [... Jon's assassination]

     

    Anyways back to the curious cases of curling parchments ... a list of examples of GRRM talking about flat paper and rolled paper:

    {Jon III ADWD}
    Jon has Aemon's letter to King Tommen. Because it was freshly written for Jon to sign, this letter never curled up.

     

    {Jon IV ADWD}

    Where to begin? Jon moved to the map. Candles had been placed at its corners to keep the hide from rolling up.

     

    {Jon VI ADWD}

    Clydas thrust the parchment forward. It was tightly rolled and sealed, with a button of hard pink wax. Only the Dreadfort uses pink sealing wax. Jon ripped off his gauntlet, took the letter, cracked the seal. When he saw the signature, he forgot the battering Rattleshirt had given him.
    Ramsay Bolton, Lord of the Hornwood, it read, in a huge, spiky hand. The brown ink came away in flakes when Jon brushed it with his thumb. Beneath Bolton's signature, Lord Dustin, Lady Cerwyn, and four Ryswells had appended their own marks and seals. A cruder hand had drawn the giant of House Umber. "Might we know what it says, my lord?" asked Iron Emmett.
    Jon saw no reason not to tell him. "Moat Cailin is taken. The flayed corpses of the ironmen have been nailed to posts along the kingsroad. Roose Bolton summons all leal lords to Barrowton, to affirm their loyalty to the Iron Throne and celebrate his son's wedding to …" His heart seemed to stop for a moment. No, that is not possible. She died in King's Landing, with Father.

    A lot of clues here suggest that Ramsay is not the author of the Pink Letter. But I won't discuss it here in the OP. All I want to know is if the letter about f-Arya curls up or not.

    [...] That did not make them easier to say. His fingers closed around the parchment. Would that they could crush Ramsay Bolton's throat as easily

    Damn you GRRM, I just can't say now.

     

    {Jon VII ADWD}

    Clydas had come and gone, Jon noted as he was hanging his cloak on the peg beside the door. A letter had been left on the table in his solar. Eastwatch or the Shadow Tower, he assumed at first glance. But the wax was gold, not black. The seal showed a stag's head within a flaming heart. Stannis. Jon cracked the hardened wax, flattened the roll of parchment, read. A maester's hand, but the king's words.

    Ok GRRM, show us the paper roll clue ...

    [letter content]
    The moment Jon set the letter aside, the parchment curled up again, as if eager to protect its secrets. He was not at all sure how he felt about what he had just read. Battles had been fought at Winterfell before, but never one without a Stark on one side or the other. "The castle is a shell," he said, "not Winterfell, but the ghost of Winterfell." It was painful just to think of it, much less say the words aloud. And still …

    AT LAST!!! Paper Curl Theory working as attended, AND protecting secrets! Let's keep rolling!
     

    {Jon X ADWD}

    Jon was washing the roast down with a sip of mulled wine when Clydas appeared at his elbow. "A bird," he announced, and slipped a parchment into Jon's hand. The note was sealed with a dot of hard black wax. Eastwatch, Jon knew, even before he broke the seal. The letter had been written by Maester Harmune; Cotter Pyke could neither read nor write. But the words were Pyke's, set down as he had spoken them, blunt and to the point.
    Calm seas today. Eleven ships set sail for Hardhome on the morning tide. Three Braavosi, four Lyseni, four of ours. Two of the Lyseni barely seaworthy. We may drown more wildlings than we save. Your command. Twenty ravens aboard, and Maester Harmune. Will send reports. I command from Talon, Tattersalt second on Blackbird, Ser Glendon holds Eastwatch.

    GRRM was trying to be tricky. He never explicit mentioned the ACTIONS of how Jon cracked the seal, flattened the parchment, and read ... Jon knew, even before he broke the seal.

    [Jon] rolled the parchment up and slipped it into his belt.

    GRRM being sneaky about the parchment and if it naturally curled or not. At least GRRM acknowledged the rolling, even though we are not given a conclusion.

     

    {Jon XII ADWD}

    Clydas entered pink and blinking, the parchment clutched in one soft hand. "Beg pardon, Lord Commander. I know you must be weary, but I thought you would want to see this at once."
    "You did well." Jon read: [Contents of the letter from Cotter Pyke]

    No mentions of the actions again. Jon just opened it without thinking.

    "Is it grievous, my lord?" asked Clydas.
    "Grievous enough." Dead things in the wood. Dead things in the water. Six ships left, of the eleven that set sail. Jon Snow rolled up the parchment, frowning. Night falls, he thought, and now my war begins.

    Again, GRRM made Jon roll up the parchment. Can't tell if it was natural or not, but it does get a shout out again.


    Other mentions of rolling paper:


    {Jaime I ADWD}

    "If I gave you sufficient men, they would be doing the subduing, not you. In which case I should reward myself." Jaime let the map roll up again. "I'll keep this if I might."

     

    {Daenerys VII ADWD}

    Stone-faced, the stocky lad bent, unlaced his boot, and drew a yellowed parchment from a hidden flap within.
    "This is your gift? A scrap of writing?" Daario snatched the parchment out of the Dornishman's hands and unrolled it, squinting at the seals and signatures. "Very pretty, all the gold and ribbons, but I do not read your Westerosi scratchings."
    "Bring it to the queen," Ser Barristan commanded. "Now."
    Dany could feel the anger in the hall. "I am only a young girl, and young girls must have their gifts," she said lightly. "Daario, please, you must not tease me. Give it here."
    The parchment was written in the Common Tongue. The queen unrolled it slowly, studying the seals and signatures. When she saw the name Ser Willem Darry, her heart beat a little faster. She read it over once, and then again.
    [...]
    "And bought you too, I do not doubt." He did not trouble to deny it. Dany unrolled the parchment and examined it again. Braavos. This was done in Braavos, while we were living in the house with the red door. Why did that make her feel so strange?

     

    {Theon I ADWD}

    "I see you all want blood," the Lord of the Dreadfort said. Maester Rhodry stood beside him, a raven on his arm. The bird's black plumage shone like coal oil in the torchlight. Wet, Theon realized. And in his lordship's hand, a parchment. That will be wet as well. Dark wings, dark words. "Rather than use our swords upon each other, you might try them on Lord Stannis." Lord Bolton unrolled the parchment.

    Wet parchment, but it was already opened earlier by Roose, since he already knew what he wanted to say: "I see you all want blood [...] Rather than use our swords upon each other, you might try them on Lord Stannis.". To re-read it, Roose had to unroll it.


    I don't know about you guys, but the many curious cases of curled parchments seems important to GRRM to overlook.

     


    Now back the Pink Letter:


    Smoke screens:

    While the boy was gone, Melisandre washed herself and changed her robes. Her sleeves were full of hidden pockets, and she checked them carefully as she did every morning to make certain all her powders were in place. Powders to turn fire green or blue or silver, powders to make a flame roar and hiss and leap up higher than a man is tall, powders to make smoke. A smoke for truth, a smoke for lust, a smoke for fear, and the thick black smoke that could kill a man outright. The red priestess armed herself with a pinch of each of them.
    The carved chest that she had brought across the narrow sea was more than three-quarters empty now. And while Melisandre had the knowledge to make more powders, she lacked many rare ingredients. My spells should suffice. She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers.
     (Melisandre I ADWD}

    Her every word and gesture was more potent
    Mel's words are her tricks

    A smoke for truth: Mel already knew about the secret mission of Mance & the six spear wife
    Your false king lied, and so did you. You told the world you burned the King-Beyond-the-Wall. Instead you sent him to Winterfell to steal my bride from me.
    The cage is cold, but I have made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell.

    A smoke for lust: Mel knows Jon has a thing for Val
    I want his wildling princess.
    Also, Mel's people refer Val as a wildling princess.

    A smoke for fear: Mel knows Jon fears getting the NW openly involved with Westerosi affairs
    Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows.

    A thick black smoke that could kill a man outright: a death threat
    Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it.   

    Your false king's friends are dead. Their heads upon the walls of Winterfell  
    Boltons flay and spike bodies. The author of the Pink Letter shouldn't be a Bolton.

    Jon saw no reason not to tell him. "Moat Cailin is taken. The flayed corpses of the ironmen have been nailed to posts along the kingsroad. {Jon VI ADWD}

     

    If you want Mance Rayder back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies.
    Mance would rather die than be caught again. Even if Mance is caught, he would never give up that information because Jon holds his son hostage (technically)

    "Our false king has a prickly manner," Melisandre told Jon Snow, "but he will not betray you. We hold his son, remember. And he owes you his very life." (Mance is also in the room) {Melisandre I ADWD}

     

    The cage is cold, but I have made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell.  
    Where are the skins that would have been included with this letter? Where is the blood ink?
    Like Tormund says:

    "Might be all a skin o' lies." Tormund scratched under his beard. "If I had me a nice goose quill and a pot o' maester's ink, I could write down that me member was long and thick as me arm, wouldn't make it so." {Jon XIII ADWD}

     

    And the letter was sealed with a smear of hard pink wax
    Pink wax = wax with little drops of blood

    [...] the Boltons of the Dreadfort went into battle beneath pink banners spattered with little drops of blood. It only stood to reason that they would use pink sealing wax as well. {Wayward Bride ADWD}

    It was never truly dark in Melisandre's chambers.
    Three tallow candles burned upon her windowsill to keep the terrors of the night at bay. Four more flickered beside her bed, two to either side. In the hearth a fire was kept burning day and night. The first lesson those who would serve her had to learn was that the fire must never, ever be allowed to go out.
    {Melisandre I ADWD}

    Mel has seven candles and a fireplace that burnt day & night.
    Tallow candles wax mixed with drops of blood can make pink wax.
    In the English dictionary, if we use the word "tallow" as a VERB, it means "to smear"


    And I want my Reek.
    My two assumptions on this Mel theory:

    1. Stannis sent a raven to Selyse/Mel updating them that they retrieved Arya Stark and she is on the way to Castle Black (reasonable assumption)
    2. Name confusion of Reek

    At this point, I don't know if Stannis won the Battle of Winterfell or not ... but it doesn't matter for the Pink Letter. I personally think Stannis won or will win the Battle of Winterfell, and it won't take seven days.

    How does Stannis know Reek = Theon? He doesn't.

    TWOW Sample Spoilers:

     

      Reveal hidden contents

    "The north remembers. The Red Wedding, Lady Hornwood's fingers, the sack of Winterfell, Deepwood Motte and Torrhen's Square, they remember all of it." Bran and Rickon. They were only miller's boys. "Frey and Manderly will never combine their strengths. They will come for you, but separately. Lord Ramsay will not be far behind them. He wants his bride back. He wants his Reek." Theon's laugh was half a titter, half a whimper. "Lord Ramsay is the one Your Grace should fear."
    {Theon TWOW}

    Just like Jon reading the Pink Letter, Stannis NEVER asked who Reek is and assumed "Reek" = "bride" because of the way it was said. GRRM is tricking us. "Theon's laugh was half a titter, half a whimper." This is GRRM laughing at us with this trick.

     

    A basic THEME for the sample chapter is name identification and confusion. If you don't believe me, re-read Theon TWOW.

    TWOW Sample Spoilers, a list of examples:

      Reveal hidden contents

    The name of the game is "Names" ... identification or confusion of identity

    "Pardon, but your ink has frozen." The Braavosi, Theon knew. What was his name? Tycho... Tycho something... "Perhaps a bit of heat... ?

    ------

    And Lord Arnolf sends word that he would be most pleased to break his fast with you."
    "The son as well?"
    "And the grandsons. Lord Wull seeks audience as well. He wants — " 

    ------

    Stannis looked up. "The turncloak stirs."
    "Theon. My name is Theon." He had to remember his name.
    "I know your name. I know what you did."  

    ------

    The girl had taken the worst of it. Jeyne, her name is Jeyne, but she will never tell them. 
    [...]
    And Jeyne had nodded. "Arya. My name is Arya."  

    ------

    Crowfood. Theon remembered. An old man, huge and powerful, with a ruddy face and a shaggy white beard. He had been seated on a garron, clad in the pelt of a gigantic snow bear, its head his hood. Under it he wore a stained white leather eye patch that reminded Theon of his uncle Euron. He'd wanted to rip it off Umber's face, to make certain that underneath was only an empty socket, not a black eye shining with malice.  

    ------

    What was his name, that cook?"
    "Gage," Jeyne said at once.

    ------

    What was his name?"
    Jeyne had hesitated. Mikken, Theon thought. His name was Mikken. The castle blacksmith had never made any lemoncakes for Sansa, which made him far less important than the castle cook in the sweet little world she had shared with her friend Jeyne Poole. Remember, damn you. Your father was the steward, he had charge of the whole household. The smith's name was Mikken, Mikken, Mikken. I had him put to death before me!
    "Mikken," Jeyne said. 

    -------

    "Who is coming? Bolton?"
    "Lord Ramsay," Theon hissed. "The son, not the father. You must not let him take him. Roose... Roose is safe within the walls of Winterfell with his fat new wife. Ramsay is coming."

    -------

    "Ramsay Snow, you mean. The Bastard."
    "Never call him that!" Spittle sprayed from Theon's lips. "Ramsay Bolton, not Ramsay Snow, never Snow, never, you have to remember his name, or he will hurt you."  
    "He is welcome to try. Whatever name he goes by."  

    ------

    "The north remembers. The Red Wedding, Lady Hornwood's fingers, the sack of Winterfell, Deepwood Motte and Torrhen's Square, they remember all of it." Bran and Rickon. They were only miller's boys.  

    ------

    Lord Arnolf's cloak was fine grey wool, bordered in black sable and clasped with a silver starburst. A rich garment, Theon thought, on a poor excuse for a man. He had seen that cloak before, he knew, just as he had seen the man who wore it. At the Dreadfort. I remember. He sat and supped with Lord Ramsay and Whoresbane Umber, the night they brought Reek up from his cell. 

    ------

    "Your Grace." Arnolf Karstark bowed his head. "An honor." He looked for a seat. Instead his eyes found Theon. "And who is this?" Recognition came a heartbeat later. Lord Arnolf paled.
    His stupid son remained oblivious. "There are no chairs," the oaf observed. One of the ravens screamed inside its cage. 

    ------ 

    "That is how I deal with betrayal, turncloak," Stannis informed Theon.
    "My name is Theon."
    "As you will. Tell me, Theon
    , how many men did Mors Umber have with him at Winterfell?"  

    ------

    He never wanted to do any harm to Bran or Rickon. Reek made him kill those boys, not him Reek but the other one. 

    -------

    "The heart tree knew my name. The old gods. Theon, I heard them whisper. There was no wind but the leaves were moving. Theon, they said. My name is Theon." It was good to say the name. The more he said it, the less like he was to forget. "You have to know your name," he'd told his sister.  

    ------

    "You... you told me you were Esgred, but that was a lie. Your name is Asha." 

    ------

    And suddenly there came a wild thumping, as the maester's ravens hopped and flapped inside their cages, their black feathers flying as they beat against the bars with loud and raucous caws. "The tree," one squawked, "the tree, the tree," whilst the second screamed only, "Theon, Theon, Theon."
    Theon Greyjoy smiled. They know my name, he thought.

     

    Sorry that took so long, but I hope you got my point of the chapter's theme: name identification and name confusion.

    The biggest foreshadowing of "name confusion" theme from the TWOW sample chapter are the messenger ravens (like the one Stannis sent to Castle Black to inform them of Arya Stark's arrival) repeating Theon's name three times. Theon smiled "They know my name". 

    BUT there was NO name confusion in "He wants his bride back. He wants his Reek." OR was there?  

     When Jon sees the Pink Letter, he sees:
    [...]
    I will have my bride back. [...] 
    I want my bride back. [...]
    And I want my Reek. [...]

    Jon never asked who Reek was. Perhaps he fell for the name confusion like Stannis did? Like Mel did?
    According to their subconscious ... did Stannis, Mel and Jon assumed "Reek" was the nickname Ramsay gave to aRya "jEynE" starK?
    This was what Jon was thinking immediately after reading the Pink Letter:

    Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night's Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon's breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady's coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird's nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …

    ... repeated three times

    Also:

    "He's to marry Arya Stark. My little sister." Jon could almost see her in that moment, long-faced and gawky, all knobby knees and sharp elbows, with her dirty face and tangled hair. They would wash the one and comb the other, he did not doubt, but he could not imagine Arya in a wedding gown, nor Ramsay Bolton's bed. No matter how afraid she is, she will not show it. If he tries to lay a hand on her, she'll fight him.
    {Jon VI ADWD}

    Arya ... tangled hair like a bird's nest with her dirty face ... is this Jon thinking about Arya's bad hygiene? Is Jon thinking about how Arya may stink to other people? Is Jon thinking about how Arya reeks?

     

    Off topic:
    Ned Stark lifts the siege at Storm's End ... how poetic would it be for Stannis Baratheon to take back Winterfell for the North?  
    I feel that Stannis will win or already won the Battle of Winterfell by the time of Mel's Pink Letter prank.
     Even GRRM has given Stannis some hope: https://winteriscoming.net/2015/08/26/did-george-r-r-martin-just-let-a-spoiler-slip-about-the-pink-letter/

    Bit by bit, Stannis has been gaining little advantages here and there that is useful for a Trojan Horse/Ocean's Eleven maneuver.

    My biggest clue: something in HBO GoT. 
    I won't go into details about the show, but in ~2010, GRRM was writing ADWD and a certain episode script for GoT Season One.
    The Battle of Whispering Woods, a battle that happened off screen in AGOT (1996) AND GoT (2011), was written differently by GRRM for HBO.
    The only reason why I think GRRM wrote the off-screen battle differently is to foreshadow Stannis' tactics for Winterfell in ADWD/TWOW.
    No spoilers ... if you don't know the difference, just re-watch and re-read.

    Besides, Stannis is destined to die fighting for R'hllor, and not some battle where he has no major personal connection to.
    Stannis needs a gnarly magical death too like Renly's.
    I believe after Stannis takes Winterfell from the Boltons ... the Others arrive and besiege Winterfell. It will be the Siege of Storm's End all over again for Stannis. Eventually, Stannis will have a magical death by the Others, just like Renly dying magically to R'hllor.  

     

    Final thoughts:

    [...] and Jon could not help but wonder whether the red woman had lied of a purpose. Is she playing her own game?
    {Jon X ADWD}


    Hey Jon, Mel just messed with you and this may sound crazy ... but even with her Prank Letter, you should still call her & maybe ... you won't get killed!

    stannis had a vision of himself wearing a crown and burning with it ( maybe dany kills him)


  11. On 5/6/2019 at 6:03 PM, chrisdaw said:

    As far as showing anyone anything, no-one will know Varys orchestrated or just helped along the Faith and Tyrell conflict, and Aegon will appear a peacemaker and friend of the Faith. As to Varys's conscience, Varys intended(s) to bring over a horde of dothraki to put his boy on the throne. He wants a just and competent ruler and he's prepared to accept the damage bill that comes with bringing it about as he considers that the lesser evil.

    he wants a blackfyre


  12. https://makerkenzie.tumblr.com/post/173306972125/why-jaime-even-killed-aerys-i-dont-get-the/embed a conversation  ( I agree with makerkenzies thoughts

    Quote

    Well, Jaime did mention that he only killed Rossart, but there were others that he killed afterward, to ensure that it never got set off, and sadly, that also made sure that no one was around to know the full extent of the caches buried in the capital (h/t to @wendynerdwrites)

    But to get down to the root of why Jaime killed Aerys, you have to get into Jaime’s psychological headspace, (fortunately though it’s not the Cersei part). Jaime always wanted to be a knight, yet his tenure in the Kingsguard was full of everything but true knighthood. He was forced to stand guard and do nothing while Aerys sexually brutalized Queen Rhaella, told that he had no right to judge the king while he murdered Rickard Stark without trial and had his son strangled after watching simply to torment him further. Aerys was, in so many ways, the embodiment of all that Jaime despised in himself, the source of what turned him into the Smiling Knight instead of the Sword of the Morning. 

    So when Jaime kills the pyromancers, he saves the city, his “finest act” as he puts it so eloquently. Yet when he returns, there Aerys is, cackling while he waits for the people to burn, asking Jaime if he slew his father. The gall of that madman, ordering so many people murdered purely in a fit of pique, as if the lives of innocent people were his to spend like coin, and then calling Jaime like a dog at the feet of the wicked master. Putting on the Lannister gold armor was the way of him shedding the years of blind service (seriously, how horrible is it when Tywin is a step up?) and taking a stand for something greater. So he comes back to that throne room, and there frail Aerys is, right there, able to be ended. Jaime has the chance to end that part of him so definitively, to be the knight he always pictured himself as. It’s a heroic act, so Jaime rationalizes. Stop Aerys from ordering anyone else to set off the blaze, some loyalist to go down with the ship and consume friend and foe alike. Get a surrender out so the sack ends as quickly as possible, with as many lives still around to be saved. That is true, but there is a second part of it. A deeper, more visceral part, lashing out at the man that had made him a monster. In cutting down the Mad King, Jaime is cutting at parts of his past that he hates, and trying to gain some small measure of personal satisfaction that he did something right.

    Thanks for the question, Anon.

    SomethingLikeALawyer, Hand of the King

     
    avatar_9f3fe43c6b43_96.pnj

    What is this fuckery? 

    Aerys was, in so many ways, the embodiment of all that Jaime despised in himself, the source of what turned him into the Smiling Knight instead of the Sword of the Morning. 

    Jaime is 17-years old now. Jaime doesn’t despise himself. Jaime isn’t thinking about being the Smiling Night. He’s a 17-year old kid who has spent at most two years in the Kingsguard. He literally thinks of himself this way years and years later after spending most of his life as the despised Kingslayer and man without honor. He despises himself because he was forced to break his vows.

    A deeper, more visceral part, lashing out at the man that had made him a monster. In cutting down the Mad King, Jaime is cutting at parts of his past that he hates, and trying to gain some small measure of personal satisfaction that he did something right. 

    Aerys only made Jaime a “monster” in that he had to break his vows to kill him. Unless Jaime is a time-traveling fetus, I have no idea what you’re talking about. *Jaime* isn’t the character who has stood by for years and years watching Aerys grow madder. That’s literally the rest of the Kingsguard. Jaime is the kid who just got there and is still at the point of questioning all of the bullshit around him.

    Jaime disagrees.

    “It was that white cloak that soiled me, not the other way around.” -ASOS

    And what are the things he dwells on about his tenure in the Kingsguard? What could have caused him so much trauma that the highest honor in the land soiled him?

    “You swore an oath to guard your king, not to judge him.” -ACOK

    “We are (sworn to protect Queen Rhaella), but not from (Aerys).” -AFFC

    And does he hate himself for his roughly two years of Aerys’s service for soiling him? Does he think that the boy in him died when he put on the white?

    “ And me, that boy I was … when did he die, I wonder? When I donned the white cloak? When I opened Aerys’s throat?” -ASOS

    -SLAL

    Nope. You’re using the thoughts of a 34-year old man who has spent 17 years in the Kingsguard and suffered from his choices and seeing the hypocritical way his act is treated, to somehow guide the actions of the boy he was.

    You’re trying to argue that Jaime killed Aerys out of some sense of self-loathing or as revenge for Aerys turning him into a “monster”, That’s one hell of a reach and it’s simply wrong. Jaime killed Aerys to stop him from destroying King’s Landing. It’s that simple. He chose one vow over another - which is the whole point of his later speech.

    If you actually read the original post and understood it, you would already know that I do not disagree with the notion that Jaime killed Aerys to stop him from destroying King’s Landing. It’s right there, explicitly mentioned: “Stop Aerys from ordering anyone else to set off the blaze, some loyalist to go down with the ship and consume friend and foe alike. Get a surrender out so the sack ends as quickly as possible, with as many lives still around to be saved. That is true.” But *gasp* Jaime is a complex character with a complex blend of emotions, and he can have multiple reasons for doing any one particular thing both conscious and unconscious.

    You paid no attention to what I wrote, so I’ll extend the same courtesy. Consider yourself ignored, I’m done with your flailing.

    -SLAL

    Wow. I was trying so hard to not make it personal, but you have literally NEVER been able to objectively discuss or analyze Jaime and while the rest of your content is typically good you have a Jaime-sized blind spot when it comes to Jaime. I would love to be able to ignore you, but honestly, you are the person I most think of when I think *Someone on the internet is wrong* and I feel a deep obligation to counter your blatantly wrong ideas and meta when it comes to Jaime. 

    Hopefully, other people can step forward to counter your continued wrong interpretations.

    Jaime had to kill Aerys, rather than allow the rebels to take him into custody, for the same reason that he killed the other pyromancers later: anyone who knew about the wildfire caches was someone who could ignite the wildfire caches, and therefore a threat. When Jaime came into the throne room with Rossart’s blood on his sword, and Aerys wanted to know if that was Tywin’s blood, it proved that there was no way Aerys could be convinced to surrender peacefully. If there was anything less than perfectly rational about Jaime’s act of regicide as a traumatized 17-year-old, it was in overestimating the amount of power Aerys might have had following a live capture. 

    And, you know what? I think we can understand why, under the circumstances, teenage Jaime didn’t have the time or space to be perfectly rational. He’d spent the last two years having to enable Aerys in all sorts of atrocities up to and including his actually setting up a giant nuclear bomb under the city. All this while the older KG knights were telling him that yes, he should just stand there and do as he was told. It was clear that adults were not in charge and Jaime was the only one with the backbone to stop the bomb from going off. He wasn’t in a position to work out a calm and rational weighing of risks and benefits of various responses to the king’s madness. Jaime’s situation was HOLY SHIT THERE’S A NUCLEAR BOMB UNDER THE CITY and THIS FUCKER HAS HIS THUMB ON THE BUTTON and furthermore, he could not wait for some more responsible and mature nobleman to sweep into the city and show him the way. His own father, a Lord Paramount and former Hand of the King, was at that moment sacking the city he’d just promised to defend. Jaime’s father, his closest and most powerful example of an authority figure, was throwing gasoline on the dumpster fire. Under those conditions, it would have been absurd to sit there and wait for the rebels to come in and get the king under control. The rebels were already doing the opposite. 

    Jaime’s self-loathing as a failed knight did not come into it. His idea of himself as having become the Smiling Knight instead of (his overly idealized vision of) Arthur Dayne developed later, in response to the fallout of his killing the king. It’s comforting to tell ourselves no one can make us feel inferior without our consent, but the truth is, if enough people tell you you’re a piece of shit often enough over a long enough span of time, even if you know all those people are their own brand of filthy hypocrite, you still come to substitute their projection for your own reflection. Part of the problem with Jaime’s self-loathing as a cynical 30something knight is that he so thoroughly bought into the hype about guys like Arthur Dayne in the first place. Arthur Dayne was not an angel; you could ask Lyanna Stark about that if she hadn’t died in that tower. Jaime’s right to say the cloak soiled him, but he didn’t have the time or space to think in those terms until much later. At the time of killing the king, he wasn’t lashing out against the monster who made him become the Smiling Knight. Some things really are this simple: he saw a threat and he neutralized it. The city was under siege, and he resolved the siege as parsimoniously as he could under the circumstances. Because he resolved that siege, he was judged as a filthy oathbreaker. That was what Brienne understood when she heard his confession in the Harrenhal baths; he started behaving like a villain only after he was treated like a villain.

    The white cloak soiled him because his killing the Mad King led to his self-loathing, not the other way around. 

    “…but he didn’t have the time or space to think in those terms until much later.”

    I actually have no problem with a lot of this piece, it’s this line that I disagree with, because why not? What prevented him from thinking in those terms? Why was he unable or unwilling to reflect on himself and his position? He has plenty of time, he was a Kingsguard knight for two years and Aerys was said to have gone worse by the Defiance of Duskendale, years before Jaime was ever a Kingsguard, so it’s not like this stuff only happened later into Jaime’s tenure. Jaime knew from the get-go that standing there and doing nothing while Aerys brutalized Rhaella was wrong, he wouldn’t have brought it up to Jonothor Darry if he didn’t, he wouldn’t have needed to dissociate just to get through it if he didn’t, he wouldn’t be so traumatized by it if he didn’t. The argument in your third paragraph, that he bought into the hype of True Knight Arthur Dayne only to discover that he hid behind his oath to absolve himself of responsibility while enabling the monster that was Aerys II and this factors into his current-day torment, is something that I agree with. What I don’t agree with is that he needed distance to reflect upon it.

    Nor do I think that it in any way diminishes Jaime’s conscious actions and motivations, nor do I think it diminishes his current psychological demons and self-loathing borne from being “reviled by so many for my finest act.” As I mentioned, Jaime is genuine when he believes that killing Aerys will prevent him from giving the order to detonate the city to someone else, or one of Rossart’s assistants might take it upon himself to detonate the wildfire while Aerys languishes in a cell. He also wants to stop the sack as quickly as possible and save what lives he can, he’s being sincere when he tells Lord Crakehall as much. But to argue that there was no emotional reflection for Jaime in his actions over the past two years doesn’t strike me as very likely. Jaime is clearly traumatized by the actions that transpired during his tenure, and he’s going to think about it, and have opinions for all involved, himself included.

    -SLAL

    What prevented him from thinking in those terms, at that time, was that he was an isolated juvenile trapped in a desperately toxic situation and he was in survival mode. He was serving as both bodyguard and hostage to a king who liked to set men on fire. It can’t possibly be healthy to be filling the dual roles of bodyguard and hostage. He was trapped between his pyromaniac boss on the one hand, actually plotting to blow up the city, and the expectations associated with his Kingsguard vows on the other hand, as well as the understanding that even if he did absolutely everything right, he could be executed if his father stepped out of line. He was just a bit preoccupied with the immediate, physical dangers pressing down on his teenage shoulders.

    On the day of the Sack, he had Aerys ordering the pyromancer to light ‘em up, and he had his father the notorious war criminal fucking up the city, which did nothing good for Aerys’s decision-making ability. Under those pressures, this:

    That is true, but there is a second part of it. A deeper, more visceral part, lashing out at the man that had made him a monster. In cutting down the Mad King, Jaime is cutting at parts of his past that he hates, and trying to gain some small measure of personal satisfaction that he did something right.

    …is more complicated an explanation than Jaime’s actions warrant. He wasn’t lashing out at the man that had made him a monster. He wasn’t cutting at parts of his past that he hates; at that point in his life he was too busy trying to navigate the unmitigated war zone that was the Red Keep to think of himself as a monster. The predicament of his asshole father on one side of him, and that madman with his thumb on the nuclear trigger on the other side, combined with the complete absence of trustworthy adults in Jaime’s life, are easily enough to explain why the king had to die.

    Additionally, my position is that this:

    Aerys was, in so many ways, the embodiment of all that Jaime despised in himself, the source of what turned him into the Smiling Knight instead of the Sword of the Morning. 

    …is projecting the cynicism of 30something Jaime onto the actions of 17-year-old Jaime, which is neither useful nor appropriate. He doesn’t think of himself as having become the Smiling Knight until he’s all grown up and has gone through all of Robert’s reign. He didn’t despise himself until he went through all those years of being tarred as the Kingslayer. 

    My position, which I understand is not universally accepted, is that it wasn’t only the trauma of serving the Mad King that led Jaime to see himself as a failure of a knight; it was the confluence of that trauma and the stigma of the Kingslayer judgment he faced following his finest act. My position, which I understand is not universally accepted, is that Jaime thinks so badly of himself because he’s spent his entire adult life being treated like a filthy oathbreaker. My position, which I understand is not universally accepted, is that Brienne revises her opinion of him following the bath scene because she understands that he only began acting like a bad guy after he was treated like a bad guy, and he was treated like a bad guy for doing something heroic. My position is that GRRM wants us to see Brienne’s reaction as the correct one, because Jaime was not always the guy who seldom flings children from towers to improve their health. My position is that GRRM wants us to understand Jaime as someone who was once a good kid who got screwed up and screwed over by people who should have known better, and those people were not only Aerys and the older KG knights; they were the nobles who treated him like Worst Kingsguard Knight Ever because he turned against his king. 

    This may not be what you intended, but in your original response to the Ask, it sounds a lot like you’re saying Jaime was always that guy who seldom flings children from towers to improve their health, and that was why he became the Kingslayer. I’m saying: no, he assuredly was NOT always that guy, His actions as a traumatized juvenile led to his attitude as a cynical adult who fucks his sister, not the other way around. Which does not mean I’m letting Jaime off the hook for the shitty things he’s done post-Rebellion. It means I’m saying that good kid is worthy of our attention and it’s worth the trouble to understand how he got screwed up and screwed over. 

     

    I am sick of them mentality thatned and cat were right about jaime when fact is both were wrong. and certain people are determined to be wrong about jaime and refuse to accept that their initial opinions of jaime were wrong to the point they persist in claiming jaime is a big narcissist claiming he is as big a narcissist as cersei when I would say he is the least narcissistic lannister.

    or claiming that he as a teenager thought anything he did ( specifically his killing of aerys in ) would be seen as a great deed because he is  a lannister and claiming his speech about ned not having the right to judge him is prroof of his narcissism when he had a point not to mention when he used that line it wasnt a line of starks and lannisters but the animals and their nature

    I have seen people claim jaime has to be the valonqar because they think that cersei needs to be surprised about the alonqar and think it was the person she thought would be by hersides and bs some argument that it cant be someone who isnt related to her as if there is something wrong with the valonqar applying to any little brother which would emphasize  how self fullfilling her prophecy was and how paranoid etc.

    https://makerkenzie.tumblr.com/post/173314611275/yes-that-does-include-ned

    Quote

    Why, yes, I am specifically thinking of Ned Stark when I talk about how Jaime Lannister was unfairly vilified for stopping the Jade Holocaust. 

    And it’s not like this is a zero-sum game in which Jaime cannot be good unless Ned is bad. Ned was overwhelmingly a good egg and Westeros needs more noblemen like him. But he wasn’t right about everything. He judged Jaime unfairly, for instance, and he could have done better.

    It’s not just a trivial detail, either, that Ned was wrong about Jaime. This is one of the stories GRRM has woven into ASOIAF: Ned’s attitude about the Lannisters was wrong, and that wrongness has had consequences. 

    And that is not to go anywhere near saying the Lannisters are blameless. There is no justification for the twins’ subverting Robert’s line of succession, or Cersei arranging for Robert’s early death, or Tywin’s fucking up the Riverlands. What I’m saying is that Ned viewed the Lannisters as a monolith of antagonism. They were never a monolith. They all have different personalities, different motivations, and different levels of access to power. Ned treated them like they were all the same, and all The Enemy™, and Catelyn picked up on that attitude. Part of that view of The Lannisters™ as The Enemy™ lay in Ned’s being so eager to see Jaime’s killing the king as a power-grab. As soon as Jaime hopped up off that throne, Ned should have and could have asked himself, “Wait, what kind of power grab is that?” 

    If Ned and Cat had not been so happy to view the Lannisters as their unified enemy, some things in AGOT would have happened differently. For instance, it might not have even occurred to Littlefucker and Lysa to point the fingers at The Lannisters™ after they killed Jon Arryn, if they hadn’t reasonably expected Ned and Cat to believe it. If Ned had not approached his new job at HotK under this determination that The Lannisters™ fucked everything up and they were all responsible for the same offenses, maybe it wouldn’t have been so easy for Littlefucker to screw him over. If Catelyn hadn’t been primed to believe The Lannisters™ were out to get her family, maybe she would not have been so happy to believe Tyrion sent the catspaw to finish Bran, and she would not have had Tyrion carried off to the Eyrie, and a whole heckuva lot of horrible shit would not have followed. 

    One of the ways in which Ned got the Lannisters wrong was that he was so quick to assume the worst about Jaime’s motivation for killing the king. We finally get Jaime’s POV in ASOS, and through his memories told in his own words, we see that Ned’s passing judgment on him was as unfair as it was unproductive. Jaime is not a filthy oathbreaker who slew his king so Lord Tywin could take over; Ned was wrong, and if he’d ever troubled to ask Jaime for his own side of the story, they might have come to be best friends. The Lannisters™ did not kill Jon Arryn; that was Lysa acting under Littlefucker’s guidance, so Ned was wrong. While perhaps we can forgive Ned for never considering his own sister-in-law would murder her husband, the fact is that was a big area where Ned was wrong. Ned was right about the Lannisters trying to kill Bran, but he was mistaken about which ones did what and why. He didn’t realize the twins were responsible for Bran’s “accident,” but neither they nor Tyrion had anything to do with the catspaw who tried to finish the job. That was Joffrey acting as Robert Baratheon’s son, with completely different motivations from his mother’s family. Not serving House Lannister’s interests. Ned was a very decent dude and he understood Lord Tywin much better than Catelyn did (for example), but Ned didn’t understand the first thing about the Lannisters as a family. 

    Which is fine! Ned doesn’t become any less of a good guy if we recognize that the Lannisters warrant a more nuanced lens than Ned was prepared to focus on them. Ned was only human. He didn’t know everything. He had limitations and he did the best he could. It’s okay for Ned to have been wrong about some things and some people. It’s okay for Catelyn to have made some bad choices. 

    The point is, we don’t get a sufficiently well-informed view of the Lannisters, as a family or as individuals, from Ned’s POV. That especially goes for Jaime. This is why so many of us J/B enthusiasts are so viscerally invested in the narrative frame around Jaime’s becoming the Kingslayer. If there was anything cynical about Jaime’s decision to kill the king, and moreover if there was anything cynical about Jaime’s silence about the wildfire caches, that implies Ned was right about him all along. Which is, first, boring, and second, frustrating. It’s frustrating because, if the wolf was right to judge the lion, what does that say about the future of the realm?

    I have seen people try to act like if the KL goes boom then its jaimes fault for not telling people about the wildfire when no its not

    or claiming that  its jaimes own fault for not telling them about aerys plot as if they would have believed him even if he did show them the wildfire  (when he didnt know where the wildfire was )

    Quote

    https://makerkenzie.tumblr.com/post/165621493955/no-virginia-jaime-is-not-a-proud-anti-hero

    Today I’m going to talk about this somehow widespread idea of Jaime having kept quiet about the wildfire plot supposedly for “pride” or “spite,” like he’s committed a grave moral offense by not divulging the existence of the wildfire caches or, for short, I’ll call it the “Jaime Likes Being Called Kingslayer Theory.” Here is a list of reasons why this theory of Jaime’s motivations is FLAMING HOT GARBAGE.

    1. Removing the wildfire caches would have been a logistical nightmare. The city would have been put in much more danger by trying to dispose of the caches than by leaving them alone. If the existence of the wildfire had been made public knowledge without first ensuring it was safely destroyed, it would have caused a mass panic.

    2. Even if 17-year-old Jaime wasn’t aware of (and thus not motivated by) the logistical difficulties, why should he have assumed the wildfire caches wouldn’t have been just as devastating a tool of mass destruction in someone else’s hands?

    2a. First, this boy was Tywin Lannister’s son. As in, the guy who drowned Castamere and slaughtered the Tarbecks. That was Jaime’s primary role model of a powerful man.

    2b. And then he spent two years dealing with King Aerys II, who enjoyed setting people on fire and actually planned to blow up the city.

    2c. It stands to reason, Jaime’s default expectation was that the wildfire caches would be used for blowing shit up and killing lots of people. Would the new King Robert have decided to blow up Dragonstone and get rid of Queen Rhaella and Prince Viserys? Why should Jaime have assumed he wouldn’t?

    2d. Therefore, the pool of people he could have reasonably told about the wildfire caches was very, very small.

    3. To assume Jaime would have salvaged his reputation by telling someone about the Wildfire Plot presupposes that someone would have believed him.

    3a. Even if he’d persuaded someone to come with him and see some of the wildfire stored beneath the city, all that would have proved is that the wildfire was there. They still might not have believed Jaime’s account of the king planning to blow up the city.

    3b. Which means the consequences of his hypothetical disclosure would be:

    3b1. King Robert gets his hands on tons of explosives and does something awful, as Jaime has learned powerful men are likely to do.

    3b2. The realm still thinks Jaime killed the king for the most venal reasons and is an untrustworthy piece of shit.

    3b3. And on top of that, he’s seen as having puked up this self-serving malarkey about having to save the city, rather than just admit he killed the king because his daddy asked him to.

    4. Jaime has told someone about the Wildfire Plot, and he didn’t have to. He volunteered the story to Brienne.

    4a. Why does no one ever ask why Brienne hasn’t shared the Wildfire Plot with anyone else? Why does no one ever characterize her as putting King’s Landing in danger of nuclear holocaust by keeping Jaime’s story to herself?

    4b. If Brienne has good reasons for not blabbing about King Aerys having planned to blow up the city, it stands to reason Jaime has equally good reasons for not telling anyone except her.

    4c. The better question is why Jaime told Brienne, after he spent 17 years telling no one else. And that brings us to…

    5. Both Ned Stark and Stannis Baratheon were advising the new King Robert to send Jaime to join the Night’s Watch as punishment for committing regicide. In that environment, Jaime had a good incentive to want King Robert to know his side of the story. That he did not tell the king suggests he had much better reasons for keeping quiet than “pride” or “spite.”

    6. The question of why Jaime didn’t tell anyone about the wildfire has already been posed on-page, and we have already seen Jaime’s response to that question. “Do you think the noble Lord of Winterfell wanted to hear my feeble explanations? Such an honorable man. He had only to look at me to judge me guilty.”

    6a. We could spill metric tons of ink speculating on why Jaime is so focused on Ned in particular, but we do have this much: he imagines his story would have come across as “feeble explanations” if he’d tried to tell Ned what happened.

    6b. Ergo: 17-year-old Jaime would have liked to tell someone, like Ned Stark, about the Wildfire Plot, but he was already being treated like a filthy fucking liar based on his having killed the king.

    7. Rather than asking “Why didn’t Jaime tell anyone?” (as if Brienne doesn’t exist), we could instead ask: “Why didn’t any of these powerful men ever try asking Jaime why he did what he did?” Barristan Selmy, as the new Lord Commander, could have asked his youngest Sworn Brother why he’d wiped his golden ass with his oaths, and he did not. King Robert could have asked; he didn’t. Jon Arryn could have asked, and I think Jaime would have actually told him, but the new Hand of the King did not have that meeting with the boy he’d convinced the king to pardon. Stannis Baratheon could have asked, and I don’t think Jaime would have told Stannis, but the interaction might have shown Jaime there were some trustworthy people who would give him a chance.

    7a. All of those men knew Jaime was the last Kingsguard knight left at the Red Keep with Aerys at the end of the rebellion.

    7a1. Why the fuck did none of them ever consider Jaime could be the most generous, primary source for Aerys’s last acts? Surely they could have gotten something for the history books by asking for his side of the story?

    7a2. If the answer is “they assumed he’d lie his golden ass off,” then why the fuck do we need any further explanation for why Jaime never went out of his way to volunteer the information?

    8. "He didn’t tell anyone because he had every reason to think no one would believe him" is a perfectly sufficient answer to the question of why he didn’t tell anyone, given his sudden faint-in-the-tub display of emotion in sharing his story with Brienne.

    9. I have seen plenty of commentators simply presuppose that Jaime’s keeping quiet about the Wildfire Plot was an act of perverse narcissism, but so far I haven’t seen anyone present an actual argument for why “he chose to keep quiet because he likes being despised for his finest act” is a better explanation than “because he had every reason to think no one would believe him.”

    9a. To go from Jaime’s railing against Ned Stark’s self-righteous ghost, to insisting he’s just the kind of asshole who likes to let everyone think the worst of him, is a substantial claim which requires substantial evidence. I haven’t seen anyone attempt to offer any evidence to that effect, probably because it doesn’t exist. 

    10. At the time of becoming the Kingslayer, Jaime was a 17-year-old boy who’d spent the past two years combining the roles of bodyguard and hostage to a king whose preferred hobbies included setting people on fire and abusing his sister/wife. The guy who seldom flung children from towers to improve their health did not yet exist. (Another note: there may be a very few characters in ASOIAF who can travel through time. Jaime is not one of them.) Jaime’s attitude as a sister-fucking, child-tossing 33-year-old does not explain his decisions as a traumatized, isolated, vilified teenager. The fact that he was traumatized, isolated and being treated like a filthy fucking liar for saving the city, at such a tender age, is more than sufficient to explain why he didn’t share his story at that time. 

    10a. If you read the Bathtime at Harrenhal scene and what you got out of it was, “Oh, now I get it! Jaime let everyone treat him like a shithead because he’s just that type of asshole!” Then you’re missing out on a lot of Jaime’s arc.

    10b. There is literally no stage of Jaime’s arc, including backstory, in which his behavior supports the theory that he willfully kept the wildfire a secret because he loves to play the cynical anti-hero. Jaime has never enjoyed being called Kingslayer.

    11. Jaime is absolutely right to say he is despised for his finest act. At the time of his act of regicide, there was no other reason for people to dislike or mistrust him. He’d fucked his sister at least once by that point, but that wasn’t public knowledge. The line of succession was not front-loaded with three blond children named Baratheon. No Stark child had been tossed out of a window. He had not served in his father’s invasion of the Riverlands. Tyrion had not been told his first marriage was a sham. Jory and Wyl had not been killed in the street behind a brothel. All of those things happened well after Jaime was established in his reputation as a filthy oathbreaker. There was no reason why Jaime, fresh off killing the king, would need to lie to himself about why everyone hated him. 

    12. If it is so very difficult to imagine that a grown man doing shitty things was once a good kid who got screwed up and screwed over by people who should have known better, maybe ASOIAF is not the series you should be reading. 

    No, Virginia, Jaime is Not a Proud Anti-Hero

    swwswwsww:

    Excellent point about Brienne knowing about wildfire and saying nothing about it. I’d also like to add an extra motivation for Jaime to have kept quiet. It’s very probable that he didn’t know and still does not know where exactly the wildfire was hidden. He had only heard the piromancers talking about it, not seen it for himself. He had no immediate proof of his story and would have needed to convince people such as Robert and Ned to go search through all the catacumbs of an entire city on just his say so. Out of all people in KL at the time, the only one who could be convinced to do this was probably his father, and seeing as Tywin had just sacked the city I don’t see Jaime going to him for help.

     

     

    when that wouldnt have proved aerys plan to blow up kings landing it would have just proved he put alot of wildfire around the city .

    Quote

    Here is an occasional reminder that Jaime Lannister does not represent a bottleneck of information regarding the Aerys-era wildfire caches hanging around under the surface of King’s Landing. A number of people in the present day know that much of the  King’s Boom Juice remains unaccounted-for, emphatically including his brother Tyrion

    The part that only Jaime knows is WHY the Mad King filled the city with Boom Juice, and even that bottleneck isn’t nearly so tight since he told Brienne. For the purposes of ensuring the citizens of King’s Landing don’t get incinerated, Tyrion knows more than Jaime. Tyrion knows not just that there’s still lots of fancy hot sauce under the city, he knows a fair amount about the relevance of the passage of time and the resurgence of magic, especially dragons, to dealing with fancy hot sauce.

    and tyrion never came to the conclusion that aerys was going to blow up the city.

    not to mention ( the people who act like there was something wrong with jaime killing aerys and saving the city was somehow wrong cant be taken seriously but I find it ironic that they claim jaime was wrong in breaking his oaths but a part of the kingsguard oath is to keep the kings secrets.

    though the person I am talking about ridiculously tried to claim that he didnt keep his oaths to cat when he did he never took up arms against house tully he managed to keep his oath utilizing his own bad rep to be able to keep his oath to cat by making the threat to edmure to force him to open up riverrun.  ( and that person tried to act like making a threat   or what he did about the blackfishetc is somehow akin to breaking his oath when it was just a threat ( he utilized his bad rep to keep both of his oaths  and not be forced to break one to uphold the other.)) he swore he wouldnt fight against them not that he wouldnt threaten them etc I find the attempts to jump through hoops to justify demonizing jaime to be ridiculous

    Quote

    re: the unending chorus of “but Jaime should have TOOOOOOOOOOLD somebody about the wildfire!”?

    I am LMFAO at the idea that the average ASOIAF commentator could have gone through even half of what Jaime did during the rebellion and then STILL gone out of their way to volunteer sensitive information in such a hostile environment. 

    image

    Originally posted by samdunn

    image

    Originally posted by usedpimpa

    Like FUCK would 95% of us have done anywhere near as much to ensure the safety of the realm as he did under those conditions. 

    Of the seven Kingsguard knights serving the Targaryens during the rebellion, Jaime was the only one with a backbone. That he maintained his sense of right and wrong despite the pressure to the contrary for as long as he did should tell us something about the story GRRM is telling us. 

    jaime did not act like a bad guy until he was treated like one jaime doesnt owe the realm an apology for that

    Quote

    By what right does the wolf judge the lion?

    This is an occasional reminder that a) Jaime Lannister did nothing wrong by keeping Aerys’s wildfire caches a secret, b) Jaime has never behaved like someone who is proud to be despised for his finest act, and c) his experiences at age 17 led to his attitude at age 33, not the other way around. 

    JAIME LANNISTER DOES NOT OWE THE REALM AN APOLOGY

     

    MORE LIKE THE OTHER WAY AROUND

     

    THE BOY WHO KEPT QUIET ABOUT THE WILDFIRE PLOT WAS NOT THE GUY WHO SELDOM FLINGS CHILDREN FROM TOWERS TO IMPROVE THEIR HEALTH

     

    ANY OF THOSE POWERFUL MEN COULD HAVE ASKED JAIME FOR HIS SIDE OF THE STORY

     

    I DO NOT FAULT THEM FOR THEIR LACK OF COMPASSION

     

    I FAULT THEM FOR THEIR LACK OF CURIOSITY

    Quote
    https://makerkenzie.tumblr.com/post/165517402715/why-do-so-many-prominent-asoiaf-commentators-think   Why do so many prominent ASOIAF commentators think Jaime committed a great sin in not running around telling everyone of Aerys' wildfire plot? I see it all the time. He was a traumatised teenage hostage- surely it's equally on the likes of Barristan (especially him) and Jon and Robert that nobody thought to take this kid aside and ask 'hey, so why exactly did you break this most sacred vow?' I think in that light Jaime's totally justified in feeling that no one would believe him.
     

    avatar_6923f369c227_64.pnj

    Why, yes, Anon, I agree that Jaime was absolutely justified in feeling that no one would believe him.

    To take Jaime’s transition-era mindset even deeper, I think he was concerned that the wildfire caches would be used for destructive ends if they were made public knowledge. This kid’s father is the guy who literally annihilated two entire noble families in response to their defiance of House Lannister. It’s not just a question of what Tywin would have done; this is Jaime’s primary model of a powerful man. He probably thought it was to be expected that a new king, with access to tons of explosives, would use those explosives to do something terrifying. Blow up Dragonstone to get rid of the last Targaryens, for example? Jaime didn’t want that to happen. I think he killed the pyromancers associated with the wildfire plot because he needed to restrict the knowledge of the wildfire caches to someone who could be trusted to use that knowledge appropriately. In order to divulge the wildfire plot, Jaime needed someone who a) was in a position of sufficient power to either ensure the wildfire was properly disposed of or keep it in the dark, b) would listen to him and believe him long enough to investigate and see the wildfire caches up close, and c) would want to find the wildfire, but not use it. (Sort of like Harry Potter with the Sorceror’s Stone: find it, but not use it.) 

    I have a little headcanon that Jaime was really looking forward to telling Ned all about why he killed the king, and he thought Ned would be just the right guy to either keep the wildfire caches secret or persuade Robert to get rid of it all without blowing anything up. But then Jaime saw how Ned responded to seeing him perched on the throne, and, well, that idea was a non-starter. Jon Arryn might have been a good candidate if he’d ever asked Jaime for his side of the story, but he didn’t. 

    As to why so many of the Smart People of ASOIAF act like Jaime kept quiet because he’s just the type of asshole who likes being treated like a bad guy? Ehhhh…what I see is a tendency to impose 33-year-old Jaime’s “I seldom fling children from towers to improve their health” attitude on 17-year-old Jaime’s actions. Which doesn’t add up, but why does this idea have traction? When we accept that he was unfairly vilified as a kid, then we start to see his antisocial behavior in adulthood in terms of his response to trauma. It could be argued that his response to trauma doesn’t justify impregnating his sister, and he could have and should have dealt with his injuries differently, but what I see happening is a refusal to consider that his injuries were not self-inflicted. It’s an insistence that his shit-for-honor reputation is yet another offense that Jaime perpetrated on the realm, rather than something that was done to him. So how did this view of Jaime gain traction? 

    Well…I think it’s a general discomfort with seeing the guy who attempted murder on Stark kids in terms of victimization. Additionally, I see a lot of discussion of Jaime presupposing access to power that he didn’t (and still doesn’t) have. I think it’s tempting to see him as having always been that guy who seldom flings children from towers to improve their health, because when we see someone doing terrible things, we want to get angry at him. We don’t want to hear about how low he ranks in the power structure, and what kind of consequences he’d face for insubordination. We don’t want to think his ripe jackass behavior in adulthood is informed by war-crimes-level trauma compounded by unfair vilification before his brain was fully developed. Basically, I think the issue is that we don’t like to think of how big the problem really is; if it’s simply a matter of Jaime being awful because that’s how an antisocial narcissist keeps himself entertained, then the problem is right where we can see it, and it’s not too big to contain and dismantle. 

    neds belief that the lannisters were planning a coup is laughable

    Quote

    Serious, genuine question here: what was the definition of “coup” the Lannisters supposedly had in mind? 

    Lord Stark and his posse rode into the throne room and saw 17-year-old Jaime’s gold-armored ass perched on that ugly iron chair. That’s the sort of imagery that would suggest a coup in progress…until the moment when Jaime saw Lord Stark giving him the snow-capped stink-eye and hopped right up off the throne. 

    If a young knight who won a tourney melee at age 13, had the chutzpah to leave his monarch’s corpse in a pool of blood in public view, and now has his papa’s flag flying over the castle and his papa’s bannermen mounted all around him, is so willing to hand over the throne to King Robert’s foster-brother, how does that work with Ned’s idea of the Lannisters planning a coup? 

    on this point, Robert is right to laugh. Ned mistakes optics for context and demeanor for decision. 

    By Ned’s own description, the Westermen could have given him a hard time riding up to the throne, but they made way. With them filling up the room, Jaime could have kept on planting his butt on that chair, but Ned didn’t even have to say anything before Jaime hopped right up. 

    Who gives a fuck about his golden armor or his shiny lion’s-head helmet? Who gives a fuck about the dragon skulls staring down at them? One dirty look from the wolf, and the lion rolls right over. Who gives a fuck if Jaime parked his ass on that ugly iron chair, when he was so quick to give it up? If that was supposed to be a power grab for the Lannisters, Jaime sure was happy to surrender. By that logic, what a disappointment to his father.  as makerkenzie states jaime wasnt a threat to roberts throne his relationship with cersei on the other hand

    https://makerkenzie.tumblr.com/post/165697500550/id-be-disappointed-if-he-were-mine

    also  when ned thought about jaime being the one to push bran 

    …and he’s all like, “You know, if I were in his shoes, I’d be lying if I said I knew I’d handle it better.”  people try to ignore that quote or ignore that ned who knew the truth about the 3 kids thought it  and grrm statement about it . to try and act like grrms statement doesnt apply or they try to claim jaime didnt do it for his kids and cersei trying to  bring up his reaction to joffrey ( a monster who jaime knew was a monster) death which was a year after the event

    Here are two interviews, where George tells what he thinks about what Jaime did to Bran.

    1. https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/game-of-thrones-season-3-characters_n_1854918?guccounter=1 :

    "Obviously a lot of people, when Jaime throws Bran out the window, and we like Bran, we've seen his good points, tend to think that makes Jaime a bad guy. But then you understand, if you understand the situation, if Bran goes back and tells what the saw, and is believed, Jaime will be put to death, his sister will be put to death, and there's an excellent chance that his own children will be put to death.

    So I said to my friend, what would you do if some other eight year old kid was in a position to say something and you knew that would mean the death of your own young daughter. And he said, that eight year old kid is dead! And this is what we would consider a moral man.

    So how do you make that choice? The abstract of the morality vs. the lives of your own children. I mean, I don't know that I'm a prostelitizer who says this is the answer to that, but I have to question the painful, difficult question, the difficulty of the choice, that's what I think makes powerful fiction."

    2. https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-242487/ :

    "At the same time, what Jaime did is interesting. I don’t have any kids myself, but I’ve talked with other people who have. Remember, Jaime isn’t just trying to kill Bran because he’s an annoying little kid. Bran has seen something that is basically a death sentence for Jaime, for Cersei, and their children – their three actual children. So I’ve asked people who do have children, “Well, what would you do in Jaime’s situation?” They say, “Well, I’m not a bad guy – I wouldn’t kill.” Are you sure? Never? If Bran tells King Robert he’s going to kill you and your sister-lover, and your three children. . . .

    Then many of them hesitate. Probably more people than not would say, “Yeah, I would kill someone else’s child to save my own child, even if that other child was innocent.” These are the difficult decisions people make, and they’re worth examining."

    Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon’s life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would. -AGOT Eddard XII

    neds thoughts make it obvious where grrm was going with this and that jaime was sympathetic from the beginning and there were hints to it from the start when jaime said t sh"”“The things I do for love,” he said with loathing " when he pushed bran showing he didnt want to do it or like doing it but he had to ( and people try to claim cersei didnt want bran pushed when cersei did want it to happen she told jaime to do it nonverbally but she sent the message 

     

    Quote

     

    If Jaime - or Brienne at this point - had dutifully called the EPA hotline, what would the material difference have been?
    Hallyne tells us in ACOK that wildfire cannot be exposed even to sunlight for very long. When they removed the cache discovered beneath the GSoB the prior year, they worked at night. And they do not destroy the wildfire because they do not have the *staff*. Too much knowledge has been lost. They store it under exacting conditions instead.
    Tyrion notes that the fruit-shaped clay pots holding Aerys’s wildfire are so fragile he has to be careful not to crush them just in handling them. And they keep it cold down there because even heat can set it off. 
    If I am *forced* AGAINST MY WILL to create a pulley system for this goddamn horse, then I also get to force others to address the overwhelming *logistics* problems presented here: explain to me how, in the biggest city in Westeros, without proper staff, without exacting written directions on just where and how the hidden wildfire is stored, working only at night, do we really think ANYONE was going to successfully locate, access, remove, transport, and store what is likely ten thousand or more jars of wildfire without setting it off, without alarming the citizenry, without tempting idiots being like “hold mah smallbeer” and searching for it themselves? Who exactly are you going to hire to do it? How are you going to keep it quiet? Especially immediately after Robert’s coronation. I mean…this is the guild that was doing Aerys’s dirty work. You trust them to not pretend to work for you while they carry out his plans?
    The wildfire is safer where it IS. They found the GSoB jars - 200 - in a storeroom. You gonna have every storeroom beneath every KL landmark searched and every crate broken open? With people who unlike Hallyne aren’t used to treating their own torches which they will require in order to carry out the search like the dangerous items they become with wildfire present? This is likely the reason why George introduced the idea of stockpiles of Aerys’s wildfire being hidden beneath the city well in advance of Jaime’s recollection. He gave you all the info you needed to understand why the question of a huge search and destroy effort was not being asked by his text. But people gonna insist on hauling horses up mountains anyway.

    https://makerkenzie.tumblr.com/post/154980548715/whats-your-opinion-on-jaime-keeping-the-wildfire

    jaime 


  13. https://makerkenzie.tumblr.com/post/158564745775/this-is-an-occasional-reminder-that-tywin

    Quote

    This is an occasional reminder that Tywin Lannister was the sort of father who could make one son lie to the other ab out his wife, and make the other son participate in a gang rape.

    This is also an occasional reminder that when Jaime lied to Tyrion, he did not know Tywin was planning to have Tysha gang-raped and order Tyrion to participate. 

    This is an occasional reminder that Jaime didn’t know about the rape and still feels guilty, years later, for lying to Tyrion about his marriage.

    If Tyrion was a victim of his father’s depravities, then Jaime wasn’t an accomplice.

    the claim that jaime should pay for what happened with tysha is bs. have they forgotten that if tywin could make tyrion participate in it he could get jaime to lie to tyrion about paying for tysha. ( and jaime didnt know about what tywin would have happen to her) 

    ( I would like to make some references to the show and claims I have seen people made in regards to this situation and some claims I have seen people make about it 


  14. In his prepping for winter theon vids he theorized that euron molested theon as a kid ( suggesting that is the reason for theons bad memory)  what are your thoughts on that theory

    plus there are some similarities between aeron and theon 

    Theon Greyjoy. They are the youngest sons of their respective Greyjoy lord fathers. And, after suffering deeply traumatic events during war, they each become completely different from the men they were before the war started. Specifically, Aeron was a fun-loving, hard-drinking rake who became a humorless, grumpy and devout priest after he was revived from drowning in a sea battle, and Theon went from a cocky young warrior  to a crippled, ugly, half-mad shell of his former self after he is captured and relentlessly tortured by the enemy.

    and the reason for aeron being a hard drinking rake was probably due to  euron molestation which led to aeron drinking to drown the trauma. so it would be a parallel if euron also molested theon

     


  15. victarion is a foil To Jaime Lannister. They are both among the greatest warriors of the current generation, and command fearsome reputations as well as Names to Run Away from Really Fast. Both are deeply conflicted over their lovers’ alleged infidelity, stress over their place in Medieval society and how people perceive them, and undergo major personality changes after suffering a traumatic wound to their hands. Jaime is seen as dishonorable for slaying the Mad King ( as a kingsguard his oaths  (the law )  killing aerys goes against it ) , who was going to burn King’s Landing to the ground, whereas Victarion beat his own wife to death to secure his honor (”He says that as an Ironborn male he had to follow the law”) after his brother had his way with her and he is respected by his culture for doing so while victarion followed the law and killed his wife and his culture wouldnt see him as dishonorable for it  while if he broke the law and spared his wife his culture would see him as having stained honor.  jaime broke the law/oath to do something good and is seen as dishonorable for it . Jaime is cunning, witty and charming, while Victarion is conventional, dull and not too bright. Also, Jaime loses his hand and later resolves to be a better person* to  

     and , but when Victarion’s maimed hand is healed and changed by Moqorro, he becomes less honorable and duty-bound and more brutal and self-serving.

      

    *(( before due to how he was treated as dishonorable jaime took on the let me be evil trope  “It’s no secret that Jaime thinks he’s a shithead. You’re treated like a bad guy by enough people for a long enough time, you’ll come to see yourself as a bad guy..“ its one  of the main reasons why he had became who he was at the start of the series and only had his family to turn to and actually be close to  etc as makerkenzie once stated in a post they made on the tumblr site or the cloaksoiledhim blog etc))

    I think jaime and victarion being foils with each other will be showcased by jaime not being the one to kill cersei. this theory that jaime will be the one to kill cersei is partly inspired by the thought that the prophecy can only apply to her biological brothers jaime and tyrion even though  it says the valonqar not her valonqar  meaning it can be arya, victarion, or euron etc.  by claiming that if tyrion did it it would just prove her right in her mind ( it would be a self fullfilling prophecy) or claiming jaime killing her would be  the only thing thats meaningful to her as if there is a limit or bringing up cerseis similarities to aerys ( ignoring how the text also had compared loras with jaime

     

    I have seen people claim that its impossible because cersei doesnt trust loras/tyrells ( ignoring that aerys didnt trust lannisters)  claiming it would be a repeat ( but every one of those theorys has jaime die with cersei bringing up cerseis line about them dying together as if cersei cant be wrong about more than one thing ( plus their connection started being cut off symbolically  when jaime lost his hand) and jaime cant live long  after cersei dies. jaime and cersei showcased their differences by how when they were put in danger cersei wanted jaime to come to her so that if she dies so will he  while jaime used cersei as motivation to live.  

     

    not to mention trying to use jaimes justified anger and thoughts of hitting cersei as proof ignoring that you can want to hurt someone and imagine it without actually doing  it like has anyone here ever want I want to has anyone ever said while upset I am going to kill him 

    https://makerkenzie.tumblr.com/post/176709540810/is-that-the-limit-of-whats-meaningful-to-cersei

    Quote

    When y’all argue that Jaime is the only option for Cersei’s killer because “the identity of the killer has to meaningful to Cersei” and Jaime is the only one who could be meaningful because he’s not the brother she suspects, what I’m hearing is:

    1. All of Jaime’s arc is a giant red herring to cover up the fact that his greatest purpose in the narrative is as a plot device to go around killing shitty monarchs, and

    2. He can’t possibly be more thematically important than that because Cersei thinks his existence revolves around her, and we all know,

    3. The Valonqar has to be Jaime because he’s the more ironic choice of her two brothers, and

    4. The Valonqar must be Cersei’s actual brother because otherwise Cersei would be wrong about something other than Tyrion being the pre-destined killer, and

    5. Cersei being wrong about anything, especially her relationship with her twin, is a rare and momentous occasion and is clearly the most unexpected thing that will ever happen with her, 

    5a. Because it’s not like Cersei was already telling herself Jaime would “never abandon her for such a creature” when he had absolutely burned Cersei’s letter and then run off with Brienne, no, not at all!

    6. (All this is leaving aside the question of how much Cersei even trusts Jaime anymore as of the start of AFFC, the book in which Maggy’s Prophecy is first introduced and the book in which Cersei finally becomes a POV character)

    7. The only interesting way that Cersei’s response to the prophecy could lead to the fulfillment of the prophecy is by her focusing on Tyrion instead of Jaime,

    7a. Because it’s not like Cersei already had a death wish for Tyrion and an unhealthy attachment to Jaime long before she ever met Maggy the Frog.

    8. And we know there’s no other possible way for the fulfillment of the prophecy to be meaningful to Cersei because we’ve already established Cersei cannot possibly be wrong about the Valonqar being her younger brother, therefore,

    9. There’s no point in examining the linguistics in the Valonqar phrasing itself, because of course there’s nothing the least bit odd about someone using the Common Tongue absolutely perfectly for everything she needs to say except for a phrase which supposedly translates as “your younger brother.” 

    10. And we know it’s totally normal and unremarkable for Maggy to say “…the Valonqar will wrap his hands around your pale white throat” when she would’ve had the same effect on Cersei by saying “…your little brother will wrap his hands around your pale white throat” because Cersei thinks that’s what she meant, and if Cersei thinks so, well…

    11. Pay no attention to the end of Season 7! The circumstances in which Jaime left Cersei tell us absolutely nothing about his narrative role, just like his going AWOL with Brienne to help her rescue Sansa is just a brief distraction from his true destiny of one-handed strangling. 

     


  16. 12 minutes ago, Megorova said:

    He was sent away from Riverrun either one or two weeks after the duel. So it's likely, that he was at the Crossroads Inn, still on his way to The Vale, when Lyanna and Rhaegar were passing there. Lyanna was supposed to turn left after that intersection, and to go west towards Riverrun, instead she continued to go south. If the Crossroads Inn is located ten ligues from Harrenhal, then that's where Rhaegar "kidnapped" Lyanna (or rather she went with him willingly, and they even agreed beforehand, that that's where Rhaegar will be waiting fo her, when she will be on her way to Brandon's wedding). Littelfinger saw them, and when a bit later Brandon also arrived there, he told him, that Lyanna was here and she was kidnapped by Rhaegar, who was intending to take her to King's Landing. So that may be the reason, why Brandon thought, that Rhaegar was at KL. And a letter, that Littlefinger wrote to Catelyn after Brandon's death, could have been his confession, that he lied about what he witnessed. Maybe he wrote, that he just wanted to cause problems for Brandon, wanted to delay his wedding with Catelyn, and wasn't thinking, that it would cause death for both Brandon and Cat's father, and will start a war. So in that letter he was apologising, for what he did. Maybe.

    the theory that in deep geek  made was that brandon was angry at littlefinger  ( and possibly knew about cats sister  ) and attacked him and LF said what he could to live and divert brandons anger to someone else 


  17.  

     to you claim that he is becoming tywin lannister not ned  quote

    Quote

    And  he has chosen to be Tywin and not Ned Stark  to reclaim his identity

    @Arthur Peres

     thats weird. He’s not becoming Tywin. Except perhaps in the sense of learning from his dad’s positive examples as a leader, and oddly enough, not everything Tywin did as a leader was bad. People are judged as good or bad based on their actions; actions are not judged as good or bad based on how we feel about the person. If Jaime picks up the occasional good idea from his dad, that’s neither bad nor the least bit unusual. But he’s not “becoming Tywin,” that’s ridiculous.

    As for his “not becoming Eddard Stark,” I’m just like…he’s not supposed to become Ned. Just like he shouldn’t be trying to be Arthur Dayne, he should be trying to be Jaime Lannister. Ned set an outstanding example in many ways, but if we want a leader who’ll live to a ripe old age, we need someone who’s different from Ned.

     

    he is on a path of redemption with affc being the prelude. and the claim that he broke his oaths to cat are bogus he deliberately made use of his reputation and the fact people will see the worst of him so that he wouldnt break his oath to cat to be kept from taking arms against the house by making the bluff about edmures kid etc .  (and no threatening  edmures kid isnt breaking the oath  nothing he did there broke his oath to cat no matter how much you stretch or bend over  backwards to make the claim ( which I have seen people do alot with jaime and refusing to admit their previous opinions that eddard or cats thoughts of him were wrong  ( and you went to the point where you claimed jaime was in the wrong for killing aerys and claim he is as narcissistic as cersei when no he isnt   and I cant take you seriously if he has any amount of narcissism its minor  at best  with it being lower than tyrions and tywins and cerseis.  while jaime loved cersei cersei saw jaime as a reflection of herself and as close to having sex with herself as possible she would rather jaime die with her than live without her while jaime would want cersei to live on.   

     seriously people are so desperate to see the worst in jaime that they try to stretch everything jaime saws or does into narcissism like claiming that jaime  thought that killing aerys would have been seen as a great deed because jaime lannister did it   or claiming that jaimes quote on there being no men like him as narcissism when no it isnt  narcissistic  (him showing a self loathing and hate for people hating him for his finest act

     I know if I were Jaime Lannister being called Kingslayer, having people revile me for my finest act would being accused of profaning my blade would sooner or later make me feel alone and cause me to hate myself. No amount of good looks, skill with a sword and cockiness would be able to prevent feelings like that.

     

    and I am annoyed at people trying to twist jaime not telling people about the wildfire as a sin and that if anyone gets hurt its jaimes fault when no  ( and refusing to accept the fact that its likely that people wouldnt believe him that even if they saw the wildfire they wouldnt take that as proof that  aerys planned to burn kings landing to the ground ( just like they didnt when they found some in  the sept ( or not accepting that ned should have asked jaime why he killed the king. or even understand why jaime took neds ( who lost his father and brother to the mad kings cruelties ) look at the time  so hard   plus the fact that its likely that he felt guilty over standing by aerys other atrocitys like raping his wife or what he did to neds father and brother

     jaime took that  and understood how people would treat him from now on.

     jaime is an example of someone who was treated badly and it led to him deciding to  then let me be evil trope

     

    The entire kingdom looked down on him for breaking his oath and killing the Mad King Aerys, giving him the mocking name of Kingslayer and an undeserved reputation as a scheming, treacherous backstabber- even though Aerys was about to have all of King's Landing (the capital city, with a population of about 500,000 people) burned down out of spite. After years of being called a monster for what he rightly considers his "finest act," it's not hard to see why he eventually chose to become like that out of cynicism 

     

      which shows him to be a better knight than barristan  who to this day doesnt think he did anything wrong letting aery's abuses go by 

    ) if he hadnt done that he would have been forced to break his oath against cat to keep his oaths as kingsguard and family (when anyone would be hurt  over that )   

     

    when he has the right to expect sexual exclusivity now that roberts dead  given the promise

    tyrion is the one becoming tywin

    Jaime killing the king was a “moral” act.

    He ignored his kingsguard vows (protect the king) in order to uphold his knightly vows (protect the innocent)

    He has spent his whole life since suffering for doing the right thing. Jaime knew from an early age that doing the right thing was more important than keeping to the letter of a vow.

    Just like Ned and probably Jon (I agree with your point about Jon not using a loophole) Jaime sacrificed his honour in order to do what was right.

     

     

    jaime's spent over a decade getting shit on for doing the right thing, it’s only natural that he might start to think that being “good” is a fool’s game. ( and even then he knew how bad throwing bran was it outright stated in the text that he said the things he does for love with disdain ( which foreshadowed there being more to jaimes character ) and grrm outright had ned and cat sympathize

     

    Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon’s life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would. -AGOT Eddard XII

    How fitting after all that it was Ned who thought this, the Ned Stark who Jaime loathed and yet whose approval he kinda craved

    with why they did with what they did which is what george wanted

     


  18. 8 hours ago, SiSt said:

    Tywin is genuinely sadistic, vindictive and motivated by pride. 

    Roose is seemingly just completely amoral and emotionless. Not getting a kick out of neither rape, murder or torture. A peaceful land, a quiet people. 

    Not saying this makes Roose any more sympathetic, but Tywin is far worse in at least three respects

    1. Making himself out to be honorable and noble, and his actions seemingly defensible. Hypocrite extraordinaire. 

    2. Sheer numbers. 

    3. Sadism against his own family. 

      roose is a sadist he is like ramsay but roose just keeps more control over it  there are hints  that he's probably just as much one as his son is, if with slightly different tastes. He's a lot better at hiding it and/or rationalizing it within the setting of Westeros. Westeros certainly does give plenty of opportunities for a clever sadist to get their fix without it looking too much out of place.


  19. 3 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

    He just lead an army to take the castle from the Blackfish, pushed Brynden out of his home by threatining to kill Edmure's child and then send scouts to kill the old Tully while he walked away with Edmure as his hostage.

    Yeah sure he is keeping his vows to Catelyn... the same way he keep them to Aerys.

    he didnt weild arms against house tully  he did everything he could to avoid that by  getting  brynden to surrender without breaking his oath  leading the army to take the castle doesnt break the oath  the only thing tat would count is if it  went into an actual battle that would be breaking his oath to catelyn (and to be honest the fact that he was drunk and had a sword at his throat means that it wouldnt be a legitimate oath ( and even then it would be a case of conflicting oaths which he brought up before  since  he was duty bounded to kingsguard () ( and his cloak did soil him he was forced to stand aside and watch aerys commit atrocities ( like with neds brother and father or raping his wife which traumatized him ( while seeing people touted as honorable do nothing to stop it  https://cloaksoiledhim.wordpress.com/ ) 


  20. 8 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

    Either that or … he was setting the stage for Tyrion dying, and living out his "second life" as a dragon (like Fafnir the kinslaying dwarf turned dragon of Norse legend) only to be ultimately slain, in dragon form by an old friend (Jon Snow), much like Fafnir was.

    what if instead of jon snow killing tyrian paralleling siegfried slaying fafnir maybe its jaime

    @Platypus Rex

×