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  1. I don't think he would be ok with killing children if he had to give the order after seeing them for himself (for eg if Rhaenys and Aegon were still there when he took KL). But I think it's less to do with mercy and more of a desire to see himself in a good light (and for others to see him in a good light).
  2. Renly didn't move all that slowly. He was at Bitterbridge, halfway between King's Landing and Highgarden, 1 month and a few days after he marched from Highgarden. This was a normal pace according to the most accurate asoiaf timeline available. If he travelled at a fast pace he would have reached King's Landing at just about 2 weeks earlier, and in about 40 days if he ditched his supply train. It wasn't that he was staying at one place for weeks at a time. This wasn't without reason, either. Tyrion observes that Renly is letting the two factions, Lannister and Stark, weaken each other. That way, he conserves his army and also gains more supporters with his progress by hosting tourneys and feasts to court allies. There's also another element. Renly is specifically said to feast at lords' holdfasts on his progress. His pace also allows his supply lines to keep up with his army. This way, he prevents his soldiers from plundering the countryside, and thus maintains good PR. In the War of the Roses, there was a monarch who was barred entry from a city because their army had been ravaging the crops and homes of peasants and the people feared they would do the same to the city. Renly is doing the opposite, he maintains a good image by not plundering and hosting feasts and tourneys instead, and has plausible deniability from starving the city (as he was so removed from King's Landing when the riots took place, the peasants blamed the Lannisters), and when he arrives at the gates he would be the one supplying food to the city, instead of demanding it, and thus would be welcomed instead of denied. The Reach is huge, so that would be why it was able to supply his army and also, as mentioned, Renly was feasting his army at lord's homes as he travelled. The Tyrells were easily able to feed the starving city when they arrived. In fact they are so opulent Joffrey's feast had 66 courses. Also, in the time between Renly's death and the alliance between the Lannisters and Tyrells, the army was idle for months. But there was no disease or famine indicated. So I don't think it was ever a problem.
  3. As for the timeline.... AGOT Catelyn XI - Robb declared king, no news of incest ACOK Catelyn I - Catelyn is sent to treat with Renly In between - Robb is in the field, fighting battles ACOK Catelyn VI - Stannis takes Storms End, sends letter proclaiming it and that he's the rightful heir, Catelyn says to send word to Robb, and its said an outrider could maybe reach him ASOS Catelyn II - Robb returns, says if Stannis took King's Landing he might be able to make a peace.
  4. Robert is definitely a rapist. He raped Cersei. Ned thinks Lyanna met her end because of her "wolf's blood", because she was too headstrong and reckless. That would make more sense if she left of her own accord and not if she was kidnapped.
  5. As Arya began her story, Ned heard the door open behind him. He glanced back and saw Vayon Poole enter with Sansa. They stood quietly at the back of the hall as Arya spoke. When she got to the part where she threw Joffrey's sword into the middle of the Trident, Renly Baratheon began to laugh. The king bristled. "Ser Barristan, escort my brother from the hall before he chokes." Lord Renly stifled his laughter. "My brother is too kind. I can find the door myself." He bowed to Joffrey. "Perchance later you'll tell me how a nine-year-old girl the size of a wet rat managed to disarm you with a broom handle and throw your sword in the river." As the door swung shut behind him, Ned heard him say, "Lion's Tooth," and guffaw once more. Renly laughing at Joffrey naming his sword Lion's Tooth, lol.
  6. Tarly is a better commander with Rowan with a better record. I brought up Rowan to say he didn't disagree, he just said foolish people would think Renly a coward. Yep, it contributes to your image. Many lords and smallfolk could be considered fools. Their opinion still matters. Because I said Stannis could ally with a Robb who went back to being lord, not Robb, king of the North. It was Catelyn's idea to ally with Renly, not Robb. Joffrey was the rightful king at that time. Point. The first time the idea of supporting Stannis is brought up, Joffrey was seen as the rightful king, not Stannis. When he sends Catelyn to treat with Renly, Robb did not know of the incest, and after that he was fighting in battles west. When Robb returns, Stannis is already defeated and Catelyn does not come back with Stannis' terms, both because she had to flee before she could talk with him and because she saw Stannis using dark magic to kill his own brother. And after that, Stannis went North because of Davos and Melisandre. Robb wanted Stannis to take the throne though, that's why he lured Tywin west. Catelyn says this: If your crown is the price we must pay to have Arya and Sansa returned safe, we should pay it willingly. Robb does not say no. This is when he offered terms to Cersei, if Cersei said yes to them Robb would have given up his crown. So theres a very probable chance he would do the same with Stannis.
  7. No it's not. Renly marching on King's Landing first doesn't mean he was always planning on ignoring Stannis. As we can see, opinion lines up with canon. In that para hes specifically called feeble for letting his family fight and not fighting himself. Daeron II was also looked down upon by Blackfyre supporters, because he didn't fight in battle like Daemon Targaryen. This is a very martial society. Tyrion and Tywin have more respect for Stannis than Renly, because Stannis is a hardened battle commander. No it's not. Joffrey happens to be a very powerful person. Tyrion also happens to agree with Joffrey. Er no I didn't. I said Catelyn could convince Robb to set his crown aside. I said this many times. Robb wanted to keep Tommen on the throne at the start because he was the heir. But his bannermen complained because he was a Lannister. Robb then wanted to support Stannis. But Stannis was not yet crowned and the Greatjon made a speech about how southron lords mean nothing to him and crowned Robb king. Robb did not declare himself king. It's in line with Robb's character to want to support the rightful king. I'm right because if Rhaenyra was seen as a true monarch she would be called Rhaenyra I. And he probably would.
  8. No, your point was that Renly was crowned with the very same plan from the start (that he would ignore Stannis and take King's Landing). Yes it does. Rowan says only fools would think so. But the opinion of the smallfolk and petty lords matters very much when you are king. So I gave an example of how it matters. During the War of the Ninepenny Kings, Lord Tytos answered the call of the new king, Jaehaerys II Targaryen, sending eleven thousand westermen under the leadership of his younger brother, Ser Jason Lannister. Tytos also sent his three eldest sons—Tywin, Kevan, and Tygett Lannister—to fight in the conflict. Tytos remained at Casterly Rock, taking Gerion's wet nurse as his mistress. Roger Reyne took command of the westermen on campaign after the death of Jason at Bloodstone.[1] Battle hardened from the war, Tytos's sons were determined to restore the power of House Lannister. Lord Tytos protested feebly before returning to the comfort and embrace of his mistress. Tytos sent his family to fight wars for him while he hid, which is part of the reason he's seen as weak. There's also another character who is called a coward for not fighting in the war during Robert's Rebellion - Tywin, by Joffrey and Robert. Robert won great renown by fighting battles and winning them. 1. Catelyn went to Renly first, but this when she believed both brothers were usurpers. Renly doesn't offer help unless Robb bends the knee. Catelyn then goes to meet Stannis. Catelyn believes in the incest and that Stannis is the rightful heir. She asks Robb to support Stannis. 2. When Renly was in Bitterbridge he did not know Stannis' thoughts on Robb. When Renly was at Storm's End Catelyn wanted to talk to Stannis, because she believed in the incest. 3. He was planning to lead Tywin away in the Westerlands so that Stannis could take the city. So he was in fact supporting Stannis. And Robb didn't even know of the incest when he did this. After that, Robb could no longer support Stannis because Stannis went North after getting wrecked at the Blackwater. Robb was planning to support Stannis from the start. It was his bannermen who crowned him king. Again, because Robb called himself king, which wouldn't be true if he no longer called himself king. No he doesn't. Robb considers supporting Stannis - like I claimed. Even after Renly is dead, Robb helps Stannis, by helping him take King's Landing. Randyll Tarly disagrees with you disagreeing. She is not known as a true queen. She did not win, she was quickly killed. Cool. Stannis wanted to take revenge for House Stark: Did I ever do less? I should have been Robert’s Hand.” “That was your brother’s will. Ned never wanted it.” “Yet he took it. That which should have been mine. Still, I give you my word, you shall have justice for his murder.” How they loved to promise heads, these men who would be king. “Your brother promised me the same. But if truth be told, I would sooner have my daughters back, and leave justice to the gods. Cersei still holds my Sansa, and of Arya there has been no word since the day of Robert’s death.” “If your children are found when I take the city, they shall be sent to you.” Alive or dead, his tone implied. Catelyn wants an alliance: “My lords!” Catelyn said. “We ought to be hammering out the terms of an alliance, not trading taunts.” Catelyn thinks if the incest is true, Stannis is heir: Do you suppose this tale of his is true? If Joffrey is the Kingslayer’s get—” “—your brother is the lawful heir.” Catelyn wants to talk to Stannis: “The Lannisters tried to kill my son Bran. A thousand times I have asked myself why. Your brother gave me my answer. There was a hunt the day he fell. Robert and Ned and most of the other men rode out after boar, but Jaime Lannister remained at Winterfell, as did the queen.” Renly was not slow to take the implication. “So you believe the boy caught them at their incest . . .” “I beg you, my lord, grant me leave to go to your brother Stannis and tell him what I suspect". So what happens if Renly was not there? It's very possible that Catelyn speaks to Stannis, and he agrees to Robb setting aside his crown. Stannis already forgave traitors once because he needed the numbers, when he forgave Renly's soldiers because he needed them to take King's Landing. Catelyn did not get a chance to have an in depth conversation with Stannis in canon.
  9. Yeah that wasn't your original argument though. Nope, Mathis Rowan said only fools would say it. But even the opinion of fools matter. The smallfolk in King's Landing are fools. But they played a part in Margaery's release, as the mob asked for Margaery to be released but couldn't care less about Cersei. Image also matters. As I have said, Tytos Lannister was known as a coward because he let other men fight battles for him. Mace Tyrell is known as a pompous fool because everyone knows Randyll Tarly won Ashford, and not him. And if only Renly's commanders are right and not Renly himself, that means Randyll Tarly is right about Stannis growing stronger. Because I didn't move any goalposts. Your argument rests on everything happening as it did in canon. But if Renly does not confront Stannis, everything changes. If Stannis does not kill Renly with a shadow baby, there's a very good chance Catelyn would buy his story of the incest and ask Robb to team up with him. No they haven't. When Catelyn went to Renly to ask for an alliance, Renly didn't know about Stannis' thoughts of an alliance with Robb yet. This was when he had to make the decision to confront Stannis or not. He did know that Catelyn thought Stannis had the better claim though. That's something that should indicate that she would be open to negotiating with Stannis after Renly. There's more strategic reasons to fight Stannis than not to fight Stannis. She wasn't known as a true queen. She is known as a usurper and traitor and no one calls her Rhaenyra I, which they would if she was truly a queen. So you agree that fighting Stannis was better for Renly because if he took KL and fought Stannis later he would be known to be a coward who refused to fight his brother, and also Stannis would become king if he took out Renly later, which Renly wanted to avoid by fighting him. Cool. This was much later, when the Lannisters and Tyrells had joined forces, and putting aside his crown would mean bending the knee to Joffrey. I'm talking about a scenario where Catelyn goes to Stannis as an envoy, and they hash out an alliance. This could happen: Renly takes KL. But his army is weakened by Tywin and King's Landing's defences. Catelyn is convinced Stannis is the true heir and that Ned died in support of Stannis. Stannis next commits an assault on King's Landing. But this time he has the allegiance of the North and perhaps even the Vale. He successfully takes King's Landing and executes Renly as a traitor. Or this: Stannis takes KL. Tywin is kept busy by Robb, who surrounds Harrenhall. But then Robb draws his army away from Harrenhall so Tywin is free to go. Tywin meets Renly's army, and destroys a portion of it. Now Renly has to take King's Landing, but Stannis defends it better than the Lannisters because he inspires faith much more than Joffrey does, and his army is of better quality than the goldcloaks. Robb hits Renly in the rear while he is siegeing it. Renly is successfully repelled and Stannis remains king. Etc...
  10. No, let's start over. You said Renly was never expecting to fight Stannis because he was marching on King's Landing. I pointed out Stannis is on Dragonstone so he can't fight him even if he wanted to, and he either expected Stannis to stay on Dragonstone or take King's Landing first. If Stannis did the first, Renly wouldn't see him as a threat. If he did the second, he would either be rebuffed by Tywin or he would take the city, in which case Renly would fight him. Therefore, the scenario where Renly refuses to fight his brother after Stannis attacked his seat of power would never come up, which is what you said Renly and his followers expected from the outset. No you were wrong. You said no one said that he would be seen as a coward. And Randyll Tarly agreed with fighting Stannis, and he's the best commander Renly has. No it's not. It's changing the events because of a different scenario. If Stannis didn't kill Renly with a shadow baby, Catelyn wouldn't see him as a kinslayer, and she wouldn't have to flee because she was implicated in the attack. That is why, if Renly didn't take care of Stannis Catelyn could form an alliance with him. Frustrated. Stannis' camp is near the cliff where Storms End is. So the archer would be shooting from one camp to another if he was shooting from a cliff. Even if the archer tries to get near enough to Renly to shoot him, he would have to go on level land. Then shoot up, because Renly's camp is on a ridge. Before he even makes it that far, he would be seen by Renly's scouts and sentries, because there's an expanse of land between the two camps. He wouldn't even be able to specifically aim for Renly among the mass of people, he's not a sniper. Therefore he cannot kill Renly. Because if people don't believe in magic, and the only way Stannis can kill Renly is through magic, it means Renly has nothing to fear. Your basic argument is if a man, who's an army vet and jacked, agrees to a fist fight with a scrawny undernourished guy, and the scrawny guy kills him through magic, the army vet is dumb. Except no one would think so because he has no reason to expect scrawny guy to do that. Rhaenyra wasn't seen as a true queen. But that doesn't even matter. Stannis would kill Renly with a shadow baby anyway even if Renly took King's Landing and ignored him. I said Catelyn could convince Robb to set aside his crown.
  11. Yep, he expected to fight Stannis, which is why he fought him after Stannis sieged Storm's End. It's called an inference. Tytos Lannister was known as a coward because he refused to fight battles. Renly refused to fight before dawn because he didn't want to seen as treacherous, so we know he cares about image. And Renly does say it: “Your Grace, I see no need for battle here,” Lord Mathis Rowan put in. “The castle is strongly garrisoned and well provisioned, Ser Cortnay Penrose is a seasoned commander, and the trebuchet has not been built that could breach the walls of Storm’s End. Let Lord Stannis have his siege. He will find no joy in it, and whilst he sits cold and hungry and profitless, we will take King’s Landing.” “And have men say I feared to face Stannis?” Because when Catelyn returns she tells everyone Stannis is a murderous kinslayer who uses dark magic. Must be why no one agrees with you. It couldn't happen because Stannis' camp was so far away they looked like mice when they went to meet him at the parley. Since they had to travel some distance from the parley to Renly's camp when they returned, that means Stannis' camp and Renly's camp were very far from each other. If the garrison at Storm's End could not shoot Stannis' army with arrows because of the distance, no one in Stannis' army could shoot from their camp into Renly's camp. Renly was also surrounded by his army. So this archer, even if he managed to shoot all that way, would hit Renly's soldiers first before he ever hit Renly. No, I said that no one thinks magic exists in the story. So that point is moot, in your own words. Because by that time Catelyn had gone and told everyone Stannis was a kinslayer who uses dark magic. And Renly can't predict what her reactions would be. Yes it does...? Repeating "suspend disbelief" again and again doesn't make your point more valid. Renly has no reason to think magic exists. No it doesn't. Rhaenyra was on the throne but was quickly overthrown. How can you destroy your own argument so badly? Renly wants to deal with Stannis first before Catelyn can return to Riverrun. What happens if Catelyn goes to Storms End after meeting Renly at Bitterbridge? Stannis' army is not destroyed, and she gets to talk with him and eke out an alliance.
  12. Because Stannis was on Dragonstone and he could not reach him. And yes he had plans to either make Stannis submit or to fight him if he didn't. Sure he could have, but he wouldn't get the credit for winning the battle, and he would be seen as a coward. Not to mention, Stannis would likely still use a shadow baby on Renly anyway, he could escape by sea and we don't even know if theres a distance limit. The only way Renly going himself would be a mistake is if the area around Storm's End is necessary to spring Stannis' trap. Since it's not, it was not a mistake. I said if Catelyn learns of the incest from Stannis, she could ask Robb to support him. Learn to read ffs. Nah. Moving the goal post is when points have been adequately answered but the argumentator refuses to concede and instead brings up new points to be answered. And on it goes. Oh so it changed into a "lucky archer" again instead of a magical one. I already explained why no one could sneak into Renly's camp without being found out, especially not an archer. Yes. Because he named himself king. If he put aside his crown he would no longer be king. Canon: Tywin and Tyrion fear Stannis more than Renly because Stannis is known as a hardened battle commander. Canon: Tarly gained a lot of respect in Westeros for defeating Robert Baratheon. Inference: If Renly defeats Stannis, he would gain respect from allies and enemies. The end scenario in a universe where Stannis has no shadow baby is Renly wins. No it doesn't. It doesn't matter. Renly says this a day before battling with Stannis, so he knew Stannis would be defeated. That means Stannis would be defeated before he could sell Catelyn on the incest, and maybe win some other allies. He even has a conversation with Catelyn about it. Catelyn says if the tale of incest is true, Stannis would be the rightful heir. Renly replies that's true as long as Stannis remains undefeated.
  13. That's because Renly could not march on Dragonstone, he had no navy. He either expected Stannis to stay put or go for Kings Landing first. But once Stannis presented a challenge, he could not ignore it. No he wasn't. He sent an envoy because he wanted help. He wanted to support Stannis because he had the right at the start, but Greatjon crowned him king. Renly made it clear he was going to wait for the Starks and Lannisters to finish each other and wasn't offering help unless Robb bent the knee. Yes you did, word for word. Renly could not have expected Stannis to have a magical shadow under his sleeve. Stannis was outnumbered, but battles have been won at worse odds. Besides, Stannis could have made a move on Storms End first because of the sentimental value the castle has over him, it is where he grew up and he resents Renly and Robert bitterly because Robert gave him the castle over Renly. "There was no strategic reason to fight Stannis" changed into "It was a distraction" -> moving the goalposts. "An archer on a cliff could have shot him" changed into "a magical arrow endowed with RH'llor could have shot him" -> moving the goalposts. Sellswords. Robb's allegiance. A marriage alliance with Robin Arryn. Theres plenty of allies. Exactly, Renly was crowned with no military cred. That's why everyone underestimated him, Tyrion said he feared Stannis more because Stannis had won battles while Renly had won the love of the common folk but wasn't tested in battle. That's why its important for him to win some battles. That's because you are being completely disingenuous. See above. You moved the goalposts. Sitting on some pointy chair doesn't make him king. What Renly feels about it doesn't matter, Catelyn's feelings does. If Renly can get rid of Stannis before major players like the Starks and Tullys believe in his incest allegations and back him, and Stannis is another usurper, and it's still ~up in the air~ all the better for him.
  14. "Tywin was actually behind x all along" theories are as bad as "Littlefinger was actually behind x all along" theories.
  15. You did not explain anything.You said Renly could take KL and deal with Stannis after. You refuse to address it when I gave the reasons why he shouldn't/couldn't. You're deflecting. You're spinning. Who said Robb wanted the Iron throne. Robb wanted help. Renly treated Robb as a rebel. The North didn't know of the incest yet, so since Renly was not forthcoming, Catelyn could be sent as envoy to Stannis by going to Storm's End. You said that Renly should have known Stannis laid a trap. But I explained that defeating Stannis was an easy way to get some military cred, prevent Stannis from growing stronger, and Renly had no reason to expect a magical assassin. Therefore your reasoning that Renly was dumb because he fell for a trap doesn't hold. You even moved goalposts, saying a hidden assassin could have been able to kill him but later saying a magical assassin could. Sorry, just admit you're wrong on this one ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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