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boltons are sick

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  1. BTW, here is a complete list of all the characters that have been approved as Complete Monsters from the ASOIAF universe: - Ramsay Bolton - Gregor Clegane - Joffrey Baratheon - Craster - Rorge (only the book version) - Walder Frey (only the TV show version) - Karl Tanner - Maegor Targaryen - Tyanna of the Tower - Hugh Hammer - Ser Ulf the White - Valarr Hill (from the 2012 video game) If you think that some of the other characters should be included, just ask, and I will explain why they were not approved by TV Tropes.
  2. So, for those of you who don`t know there is a trope created by TV Tropes called Complete Monsters (also known as Pure Evil). They are regarded as the very worst of the worst characters from a certain franchise. There are a lot of requirements for these trope but the main ones are the following: 1) The character has ABSOLUTELY NO REDEEMING QUALITIES. Even if a character has some redeeming qualities at the start of the story he/she could still become a Complete Monster if he/she loses them. Even one single redeeming quality is enough to disqualify a character from this trope. 2) The character in question commits horrible, atrocious crimes that are presented seriously within the story and their actions are worse than the actions of most other villains in the story. We also take into account their resources and their ability to cause harm to other people. This means that if a character has more resources (if for example he/she is a ruler that commands thousands of people), then he/she needs to comit bigger atrocities in order to stand out. If a character has less resources to harm people (for example, if he/she is a lone serial killer), then he/she qualifies if their crimes are heinous enough considering their resources. If a character`s actions are not heinous enough by the standards of the story then he/she can`t be a Complete Monster. The character`s crimes must pass several different heinous standards in order for the character to count as a Complete Monster: - The baseline standard - This is a common standard that all villains need to pass, no matter the work they come from. This means that the villain needs to commit crimes that are worse than animal cruelty, theft, abuse (unless the abuse is REALLY extreme but that rarely happens) and trying to kill the main characters (because this is something most villains try to do). - The standards of the work - This means that the villain should be compared to other villains from the same work (or franchise) to see if his/her actions are bad enough to make him/her stand out. This means that a villain who comes from a lighthearted series like My Little Pony needs to be compared to other villains from My Little Pony and not to villains from grimdark franchises such as Warhammer 40000, A Song of Ice and Fire and Berserk. Similarly, a villain who comes from a work with high heinous standard should be compared to other villains from the same franchise and not to villains that come from My Little Pony. - The resource standard - This means that we should also take into consideration the villain`s resources and their ability to hurt other people as I already mentioned. - The systemstandard - This means that if a villain is part of an organization or a group, then the villain needs to be the worst member or one of the worst (if the organisation is big like the Galactic Empire for example) 3) The character`s motivation for commiting those crimes or the character him/herself are never portrayed sympathetically and he/she has either no excuse for his/her actions or their excuse is not portrayed sympathetically. Even if the character in question has some traumatic moment that has shaped his/her personality, it doesn`t excuse their actions and the narrative doesn`t try to make you feel sorry for them. 4) The character has enough understanding of human morality to tell right from wrong and make decisions. This means that characters who are severely mentally ill, possessed or brainwashed or from a race or culture that can`t comprehend morality or has an entirely different morality can`t qualify. However, characters who are mentally ill can still qualify if they can tell right from wrong despite their mental illness (for example, the Joker). 5) The character is portrayed seriously and is not a Comic Relief (a character you are supposed to laugh at and not take very seriously). Even if the character is funny he/she can still be a Complete Monster if they are portrayed seriously despite their sense of humor. If the character is treated as a joke by the narrative itself (which often happens in kid`s shows), then he/she can`t be a Complete Monster. 6) The character must make AT LEAST ONE APPEARANCE in the story itself. Characters that are just mentioned by other characters and make no appearance can`t qualify. Aside from that, if all the crimes commited by the character happen off-screen/off-page and are only vaguely described, then he/she can`t be a Complete Monster. 7) The audience is not supposed to feel bad for a Complete Monsterr when something bad happens to him/her because their comeuppance is completely deserved and the narrative doesn`t try to make the audience feel sympathy for the Complete Monster. 8) The character must come from a work which has at least some semblence of plot and is not pure exploitation and is more complex than "bad guy does evil things for no apparent reason" type of plot. A horror film or book can still contain a Complete Monster but it needs to have some plot. For this reasons films like Human Centipede and Serbian Film don`t contain Complete Monsters because they are viewed by TvTropes as plotless exploitation even though the villains are extremely repulsive. 9) A character must meet ALL of the above mentioned criteria in order to be a Complete Monster. So, who are your favorite villains that meet these requirements?
  3. Wow! I didn`t expect that many replies. I guess female redemption arcs are not as rare as I initially thought. Another example is Trilla Suduri, aka the Second Sister, the main antagonist from the 2019 video game Star Wars: Jedi Fallen Order. She was a cool villain even though her ending was a bit disappointing because Vader kills her immediately after she redeems herself. You can watch her cutscenes here:
  4. Yea, those are some of the vilest villains in fiction even though they are not as iconic as some of the other characters. Even I was surprised when I read their complete list of crimes.
  5. In this topic you can create a list of the most evil fictional villains you have ever encountered. You can list as many characters as you want and they can come from books, tv shows, cartoons, movies, video games, comic books, tabletop games, anime and manga, etc. The most evil and depraved fictional characters I can think of in no particular order are Sir Isaac Ray Pelham Westcott from Date a Live, Baron Karza from Micronauts and Fabius Bile from Warhammer 40000. Let`s start with Sir Isaac Ray Pelham Westcott. He has commited every single crime you can think of - mass genocide, rape, cold-blooded torture, murder of children and women, waging wars, mutilations, destroying an universe, dragging entire towns into destructive battles, executing civilians, experiments in children and infants, destroying whole countries, killing millions on screen, attempting the death of billions, later attempting trillions. For more info just read the text that I copied and pasted from Villains Wiki below: Then there is Baron Karza who is on the same level of depravity as Westcott. Below I have copied and pasted his crimes from a user on TV Tropes: And then there is Fabius Bile. He has genocided entire sectors (in Warhammer 40000 one sectore consists of multiple solar systems), has conducted horrible experiments which have left entire sectors longing for death. He has also flayed alive billions of people and after that he has forced them to carry a cloak of their own skin and the skins of the other people he has flayed. This is worse than it sounds because after the flaying is done he imprisons the souls of his victim in their own skins so that they could find peace. Fabius also changed the composition of the climate of an entire planet and then gave a "choice" to the population to either suffocate or take his serum which would transform them into hideous mutants but would allow them to survive and has poisoned entire sectors with his chemicals. He squashed down over a million prisoners to turn them into amplifying drugs for his followers. He also conducts horrible torturous experiments on prisoners and on his own followers, sometimes keeping his test subjects in agony for weeks. However, his most heinous crime are possibly "the New Men". The populations of possibly hundreds of planets are transformed into empowered, brainwashed, murderous psychopaths that feel constant agony (much to Fabius` amusement). These "New Men" serve only Fabius Bile because they are brainwashed and they slaughter their way through the galaxy, massacring the populations of entire planets under Fabius`s orders. So, who do you think the most evil fictional characters are? Are they more evil than Sir Isaac Ray Pelham Westcott, Baron Karza and Fabius Bile. Write your opinions down below.
  6. I don`t think she counts because she doesn`t really do anything bad in the film (at least as far as I remember but I admit that I have seen this film a long time ago and I might be misremembering). She is portrayed more as a victim of her psycho brother who is the real villain of the film.
  7. I recently noticed this post. It is complaining about the lack of female villains that get redemption arcs both in ASOIAF and in fiction in general. I haven`t thought about this before but now that I think about it, most of the fictional characters that get redeemed are male and female redemption arcs are still pretty rare. So, in this post you can list your favorite fictional female villains that get redemption arcs and explain why you like them. My favorite one is probably Sarah Kerrigan from the video game series Starcraft. For those of you who don`t know, she lost her parents at an early age by an accident, then she was kidnapped by her goverment and underwent brutal training to become an assassin. Kerrigan was then rescued by the seemingly benevolent rebel leader Arcturus Mengsk who accepted her in his ranks. However, when Sarah Kerrigan expressed her disagreement with his atrocities (like massacring the population of an entire planet) Mengsk quickly left her behind to be killed by the Zerg. Instead of killing her, the Zerg turned Kerrigan into the Queen of Blades, a genocidal tyrant who has butchered billions of beings throughout the galaxy. However, this is not Kerrigan`s fault (at least not entirely) because she was brainwashed by the Zerg into becoming this monster. Later in the story her lover, Jim Raynor, saves her and turns her back into human and she doesn`t remember anything. However, she feels remorse about the atrocities she has commited as the Queen of Blades. In the end Sarah Kerrigan ends up saving the entire universe from extinction and defeats the main villain of the entire Starcraft universe and this is how she atones for her crimes.
  8. A Complete Monster can still have some excuse for why they turned out the way they did. In fact, there are A LOT of Complete Monster villains outside of ASOIAF who had traumatic experiences (Arctururs Mengsk from Starcraft lost his entire family to Confederate assassins and he saw his homeplanet bombarded and millions of people died as a result, Lotso from Toy Story started out as a loving toy but then he was abandoned by her and replaced by another toy, Griffith from Berserk was brutally tortured and mutilated for over an year to the point where he could barely walk, hold things with his arms or even speak because his tongue has been cut off etc.) There are a lot of Complete Monsters who have experienced traumatic events and there are even some Complete Monsters that start out as decent people. However, they can still be Complete Monster if they lose all of their initial redeeming qualities in the end and if the story makes it clear that we are not supposed to sympathize with these characters despite their Freudian Excuse (Mengsk massacres the population of two planets, leaves his loyal soldiers to be slaughtered by the Zerg, kills many teenagers to secure his power, performs cruel experiments on living people, starves abuses and enslaves his own population, attempts to kill his own son, attempts to blow up a space station with thousands of his own people inside, nukes his own palnet with nuclear weapons etc. His traumatic backstory doesn`t justify his actions, the narrative makes no attempt to paint him in a sympathetic light and it is clear that by the time he does these things he has lost all of his redeeming qualities through character development and no longer cares about his dead family or about his home planet). It depends on how their excuse is presented by the narrative itself. If Ramsay, Gregor or Joffrey get POV chapters their status might change but for now the narrative doesn`t make any attempt to make the audience feel bad for them. I didn`t participate in the decision not to include Euron in the list but I still think that we should wait for WOW where he would commit those things. Being a slaver is not enough by ASOIAF standards. I have my doubts about LF because there is a theory that he loves Catelyn and Sansa in a twisted way which would be a disqualifier. However, we don`t know if his love is true or not, yet.
  9. I like the trope and the list is fine. I am not sure if it`s applicable to ASOIAF because the author has stated numerous times the he doesn`t believe in 100% good or bad but at the same time some of his characters do seem to meet the requirements. I think that Euron should be added after WOW gets published. I also think that Littlefinger is a potential candidate but I am not sure about him. I proposed Maegor Targaryen for removal a few days ago at TvTropes because there is evidence in World of Ice and Fire that he loved his mother and her death devastated him. However, one of the other tropers has read another prequal book that has been published after WOIAF and there Maegor doesn`t mourn his mother, so my removal proposal was rejected. Other than him I don`t see any reason to remove any of the other characters. I think that if we get a POV from some of the characters that are listed as Complete Monsters like Ramsay and see their point of view, this might disqualify them. Until then they can stay on the list.
  10. The point of this thread is to express your opinion about the list and to see whether people agree or disagree with it. And to discuss the Complete Monster trope.
  11. I am not dismissing anything. You are free to express your opinion and disagree with TvTropes if you want. I am just explaining why characters like Roose Bolton, Tywin Lannister and Euron Greyjoy were not approved for this trope.
  12. I am not really sure but I think this is revealed in a sample chapter from WOW which is not published. The TvTropes members are waiting for the book to come out to add him.
  13. Because the members of TvTropes have decided that Euron hasn`t commited enough atrocities to be included yet (remember that the heinous standard is one of the criteria). However, when Winds of Winter gets published, he will surely be added to the list.
  14. Tywin was downloaded as a candidate because apparently he loves his dead wife and seems to love at least to an extent Cersei and Jaime. There is also evidence that his rule actually had an overall positive impact for the Westerlands. He doesn`t meet the criteria for this trope.
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