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boltons are sick

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  1. For those of you who don’t know, there are several wikis for villains. One of them is called Pure Evil wiki (which, in short, is about villains with no redeeming or sympathetic qualities), the second is called Near Pure Evil wiki (Which, in short, is about villains with almost no redeeming or sympathetic qualities but they still can’t qualify for the Pure Evil wiki for some reason. However, there are other cases where a villain can be Near Pure Evil even if they don't have any redeemable qualities like slightly lacking moral agency or slightly failing the heinous standard of the series because they don't go the extra mile in terms of crimes). There is also a third wiki called the Inconsistently Heinous wiki (which, in short, is about characters who have committed awful crimes, but they still have too many redeeming and sympathetic qualities and excuses for their actions to qualify as Pure Evil or Near Pure Evil). The name “Inconsistently Heinous” means that the characters are too inconsistent in their heinousness to be Near Pure Evil and they need to have many redeeming and sympathetic qualities and/or excuses for their actions. Often times Inconsistently Heinous characters can even be morally ambiguous heroes in the stories they are depicted, but they also do some bad things along the way. Walder Frey is listed on the Near Pure Evil wiki. Here is what he has done: He organizes the Red Wedding which kills Robb and Catelyn Stark along with 3500 other people to take revenge on Robb Stark for not honoring his vows to marry one of his daughters. Many of Robb's soldiers outside the castle are burned alive in their tents while they are drunk which adds to the brutality of the act. This is considered to be one of the biggest acts of treachery and dishonesty in Westerosi history because the guest right is considered to be one of the most sacred things in most Westerosi cultures. When his mentally challenged grandson Jinglebell is taken captive by Catelyn Stark who threatens to kill him should Walder refuse to spare Robb Stark's life, Walder still refuses to spare Robb and throws his grandson's life away. After Robb and Catelyn are killed, Walder allows his kin to shows disrespect to their corpses. After he had Robb's direwolf Grey Wind killed, he let the direwolf's head be attached to Robb's body before parading him, and also lets his kin throw Catelyn's corpse into the river Green Fork in a mockery of House Tully's funeral customs. Although he originally meant for Catelyn to be taken hostage, along with her brother, the groom Edmure Tully, the woman's madness caused one of his sons, Ser Raymund, to cut her throat to end it (possibly out of pity or simply to avoid dealing with an insane hostage, or both). It is unclear if Walder encouraged this. Him being offended over Robb Stark not honoring his vows to marry a female Frey is a weak excuse for orchestrating the Red Wedding because it's a petty reason for revenge and none of the other people who were killed had anything to do with Robb's decision. While Walder Frey had the protection of Tywin Lannister when he enacted the Red Wedding, from what is shown, he was the one who came up with the idea for the Red Wedding and Tywin simply agreed to protect him and reward him if he did it. Even Tywin's abused son Tyrion Lannister says that he has no doubt that Walder was the one who came up with the idea for the Redding Wedding when he confronts Tywin for his own part in it. While ASOIAF has a high heinous standard, Walder Frey still stands out because he doesn't have as many resources as some of the other characters in the story and because the Red Wedding is a taboo even in Westerosi society due to the combination of guest right violation and treachery. He also stands out because the Red Wedding gives him a body count of over 3500 people and because he allows Catelyn to kill his own grandson Jinglebell and refuses to spare Robb Stark to save him. And here is the reason why he can't qualify as Pure Evil: Unlike his show counterpart, he appears to care about some members of his family. After the Battle on the Green Ford, he arranges a ransom with Tywin Lannister for all the Frey captives at Harrenhal, paying with chests of gold for every single one of them. While he doesn't care about his grandson Jinglebell because he is mentally challenged and he doesn't save him when Catelyn threatens to slit his throat, Merett Frey mentions in his own thoughts in one chapter that Walder Frey takes care of his own even when they anger and disappoint him and this applies even to those members of his family whose names he can't remember. He also pays a ransom for Petyr Frey when the brotherhood without banners kidnap him. It is also mentioned that Walder drilled the idea inside his heir's head Stevron Frey that "blood is blood" and to take care of his own. Walder also reacts in a slightly disturbed way when Roose Bolton subtly threatens him that two of his grandsons are captives of Ramsay Snow and he uses nice words to describe one of his daughters Roslin, even calling her a "flower". So, do you agree with the decision to list Walder Frey as Near Pure Evil or not?
  2. Don't get me wrong, he is pretty evil, but I think a lot of people tend to overrate how evil exactly he is. He is just a Medieval psycho who likes to torture and rape people. What he did to Theon was really brutal but that's really the worst thing he has done. He is definitely one of the worst people in ASOIAF but I can think of dozens of characters from fiction who are worse than Ramsay. One of them is Bill Cipher from Gravity Falls. Despite the fact that Gravity Falls is a kids show, Bill cipher has done worse things than Ramsay. You can check out his page on the Pure Evil wiki. Here are his Moral Event Horizons which are listed on the page: Incinerating his entire home dimension, killing everyone who lived there, including his family. Forcibly possessing Dipper's body and inflicting all sorts of self-harm upon it, all while planning to dispose of his body in a fake suicide and leave him stuck as a ghost, as well as presumably planning to do the same to his twin sister Mabel. Unleashing Weirdmageddon upon Gravity Falls and trying to expand it on the rest of the world, despite the fact that it could destroy existence. Threatening to kill Mabel "just for the heck of it" if Ford didn't let him into his mind. And here are the things which make him Pure Evil and are listed on his page: In General/Background While he has many comedic moments throughout the series, none of them detract from his heinousness, with most of them just showing just how cruel, sadistic, and vile he truly is. Even though he is a Dream Demon, he started out as a different species from the 2nd Dimension until he became interested in spreading chaos when he destroyed his dimension and took sadistic pleasure in it, which proves he has a clear moral agency. Despite claiming that the Henchmaniacs are his "friends" and sometimes treats them affably, he does not actually care for them, as he is only kind to them so he can be praised and admired by them. This was shown when they got injured after failing to escape Gravity Falls in order to spread chaos around the world and he angrily yelled at one of them (Paci-Fire) to "walk it off" when he also got injured and threw a temper tantrum about not escaping the borders of the town, which almost destroyed his castle with them in it, and only got annoyed when they were beaten during their fight with the Shacktron. In the Gravity Falls Lost Legends story "Don't Dimension It" the Henchmaniacs stand next to Bill's statue saying that "HE WAS THE WORST". While this could be interpreted as them paying their respects for how heinous he was, this could also mean that none of them actually liked him. He destroyed his own dimension by plunging it into fiery chaos, killing all those he had ever known, including his own family, and effectively wiping out his entire species, just because he hated living there with them. While it was said that he had a bad relationship with his family, it doesn't justify his actions in any way. He tormented several historical people with nightmares for failing to create portals for him, including the ancient Egyptians, U.S. president George Washington and film director Stanley Kubrick. He once tormented a Native American shaman from the lands that would later become Gravity Falls named "Modoc the Wise", and after foreseeing a catastrophic event involving Bill that could potentially destroy the entire world, he set himself on fire in an effort to prevent it. He manipulated Stanford Pines into making the portal for him in order to cause Weirdmageddon through charm and flattery, making Stanford think that Bill was his friend. It is also possible that he intentionally hurt Ford's eyes while possessed him, as the blood on pages in Journal 3 about Bill is from Ford's eyes. When Stanford's friend Fiddleford McGucket witnessed what is on the other side of the portal and realized Bill's true nature, Stanford confronted him about it. Bill reveals his true intentions and said that Stanford can't stop him, but that "it would be fun to watch him try". This makes Bill held accountable for McGucket's decent to madness, as the experience McGucket had was so horrifying that he would create a memory gun to erase what he saw and started using it a lot to erase his other memories if he ever discovered anything he deemed unnatural, resulting in him becoming a crazy hillbilly and also resulting in his physical and mental health deteriorating. This also means that Bill is indirectly responsible for the creation of the memory gun and the Blind Eye Society. Season 1 He dislodged teeth from a deer to show how insane he is. While he did put the deer teeth back, it was only because he made his point and didn't need the teeth rather than care for the deer. Under Li'l Gideon's orders, he tried to steal the code to the Mystery Shack's safe, hoping that Gideon would help him with Weirdmageddon. After failing to bring Gideon the code to the Mystery Shack's safe, he tried to kill Dipper, Mabel and Soos, planning on destroying Stan's mind when he was done. Season 2 He tricked Dipper to possess his body so he could destroy his Journal, while also destroying the laptop that Dipper was using to find the author and abusing Dipper's body in multiple ways. It's also revealed in Gravity Falls: Journal 3 that after destroying the journal, he planned on jumping off of a water tower in Dipper's body to leave the latter stuck as a ghost forever and make it look like Dipper committed suicide, with it also being implied that he would have either possessed Mabel to leave her stuck as a ghost as well or gaslit her into committing suicide out of guilt. He possessed Blendin Blandin so he could trick Mabel into giving him the inter-dimensional rift under the pretext that he would make summer endless so Dipper would not take an apprenticeship with Ford and leave her behind, before using it to bring about Weirdmageddon, in which he caused havoc and destruction throughout Gravity Falls. He imprisoned Mabel in the Prison Bubble so she would remain there forever, and while Mabel was much happier there than in the real world, the place was a lie and its inhabitants were disguised monsters who tempted Dipper, Wendy, and Soos into remaining there forever. He horrifically deformed Preston Northwest's face after he tried to ally with him. He had the Eye Bats turn most of the citizens of Gravity Falls into statues, and stacked them into a "frozen throne of human agony". He unleashed bubbles of pure madness, causing multiple citizens to go completely feral and insane. He tried to convince Ford to join him along with his henchmaniacs, and turned him into a gold statue to use as a back-scratcher when he refused. He destroyed all three of Ford's journals before ordering 8-Ball and Teeth eat Dipper alive. While he did say that 8-Ball and Teeth could have Dipper as a "snack", it's likely that this was simply a taunt at Dipper and not Bill showing care for his minions. He tortured Gideon by forcing him to do a cute dance in a cage for the rest of eternity after he betrayed him. He killed Time Baby and most of the Time Police while also not caring about Time Baby telling him that Weirdmageddon could end the very fabric of existence itself. He planned to expand Weirdmageddon to the entire world and then the universe, only to be stopped by Gravity Falls' law of weirdness magnetism. He once again offered Ford a chance to join him in exchange for learning how to bring down the barrier keeping him trapped in Gravity Falls, and when he refused, Bill attempted to torture him for the info. When the resistance of Gravity Falls came to fight Bill in the Shacktron, Bill had his Henchmaniacs fight it to kill everyone inside. After failing to get the information to escape Gravity Falls from Ford by torturing him, he then decided to threaten his family to get him to comply. He turned Wendy Corduroy, Li'l Gideon, Fiddleford McGucket, Robbie Valentino, Soos Ramirez and Pacifica Northwest into posters for his castle right in front of the Pines family, with them being conscious since they are shown screaming. After Dipper and Mabel escaped to buy Stan and Ford time, Bill turned into a more demonic form while saying that he is going to turn Dipper and Mabel into corpses and disassemble their molecules. He threatened to kill Dipper and Mabel if Ford didn't tell him how to take Weirdmageddon global, and then tried to kill one of them while having Stanley and Stanford watch "just for the heck of it", with it being seen through his eye that he would've killed Mabel first. While he did agree to leave Dipper, Mabel and Stan alone when Ford agreed to let him into his mind (who was actually Stanley in disguise), this is pragmatic so he could spread his Weirdmageddon to the universe. It is implied he was going to go back on his promise to spare Ford's family, since Stan expressed doubts about him telling the truth. In his final moments, he cowardly tries to bribe Stan with anything he wants before unsuccessfully trying to kill him for tricking him into going into his mind instead of Ford's. Aside from having a page on the Pure Evil wiki, he is also listed as a Complete Monster on TV Tropes. This is what his Complete Monster entry looks like: Bill Cipher is an interdimensional demon and is, despite his appearance, his demeanor, and his twisted sense of humor, quite sadistic. A being of chaos who killed his parents and destroyed his home realm to escape its limitations, Bill sought to escape his decaying realm by invading another world he could wreak havoc on, and set his eye on Earth's universe. A chessmaster extraordinaire, Bill exploited the desperation of Stanford Pines, manipulating him into building a portal that would allow the fusion of the Nightmare Realm and the physical world so Bill could wreak chaos worldwide. In the present, Bill stalks the Pines twins after their initial meeting. At the turning point of Bill's plan, Bill goads a despondent Mabel into handing him the means in which to break the gap between the real world and the Nightmare Realm—and, after doing so, traps Mabel in a Lotus-Eater Machine and unleashes "Weirdmaggedon" on Gravity Falls. Demonstrating his random cruelty by abominating Preston Northwest's face, Bill assaults the town, which sees almost all its citizens converted into a series of statues built into a "throne of human agony", and the rest living in hiding in a horribly-mutated Eldritch Location. Bill is dismissive of the fact that his influence could lead to the destruction of existence itself, and callously vaporizes Time Baby and the Time Police squad once they point this out to him. A being who was motivated by a lust of chaos and random whims, Bill happily conducted torture and the attempted brutal murder of children to further his goals. Treating everyone like a pawn and life itself as a game, Bill Cipher devoted his entire existence to wreaking chaos and destruction on the world at large. As you can see, despite coming from a kids show, Bill Cipher is more evil than Ramsay.
  3. She literally has a dream where she is chained and tortured by Tyrion (who had already bit off her nipples), but during that dream, she doesn't beg for mercy for herself but instead begs Tyrion not to harm her kids. When Tommen is choking on wine, she freaks out and dashes straight to him and when it turns out that he wasn't poisoned, she goes away and starts crying due to how scared she had been. Her overall reaction when Joffrey dies is to cry, beg others to save her son and then she mourns his corpse. When Cersei manages to get Margaery arrested by the Sparrows and she thinks that if Margaery dies, her kids would be safe because she thinks Marg is the younger queen from Maggy's prophecy, she goes to Tommen, gives him a hug, kisses him and when Tommen asks her why she is crying, Cersei thinks that it's because he is saved and nothing bad would happen to him. When she is imprisoned and the High Sparrow says she would be allowed to see her son, she drops tears and the text mentions that they were genuine. And while she is imprisoned in her cell, she has a nice dream where Jaime is her husband and her son Joffrey is still alive and well. I don't think I need to give more examples.
  4. Cersei truly loves her children. And she doesn't use her love for them as justification for her actions, she genuinely commits them because she believes that otherwise her kids are going to die. Not saying it completely justifies her, but most of her actions are not done for the sake of increasing her personal power like many fans believe.
  5. I found an interesting video which elaborates on some double standards ASOIAF fans have. One of the more interesting comparisons is how similar Catelyn and Cersei are, yet Catelyn is far more liked because she is a Stark, but Cersei is hated because she is a Lannister despite their similarities. Here is a link to the video in question on the exact place where this comparison is made. Do you agree with the person who has made the video or not?
  6. I never said in this comment that you favored Tywin, it's pretty clear from all your comments you hate him, so read more carefully next time what I have written. This is what I wrote: However, I do remember from one of our previous discussions that you defended Robb's pillaging because "this was just how wars were back then" or something like that and I just pointed out in this comment that you could use the exact same defense for Tywin's actions in the Riverlands (even though it would be incorrect) but you are not doing it because you favor Robb and the Starks in general but hate Tywin. Similarly, you also defended Daenerys's actions in one of our previous discussions, even the torture of two children in front of their father because "she was trying to find killers" or something like that. You also defended her crucification of over 100 random people without trial which was done for the crimes of 2-3 people. I am pretty sure that if Cersei had done these things for the exact same reasons, you would have crucified her and condemned her, but because it's Danny, she is fine. That's why I annoyed not just by you but by almost everyone in this fandom who acts like defending a character like Cersei apparently makes you a bad person and is totally unacceptable, and then they go around and defend the actions of characters like Tyrion, Daenerys, Stannis, etc. who do just as bad. These people act like they have the moral highground, but they don't they just defend the characters they like and condemn the characters they dislike without actually caring for morality because otherwise they would just admit that almost everyone in the story is a shitty person who has done terrible things without trying to put certain characters who have done bad things on pedestal and condemn others like Cersei who haven't done worse.
  7. Weren't you the one who defended Robb Stark pillaging the Westerlands and killing Lannister peasants with "this is just how wars were fought back then" or something like that even though you could make the exact same argument for Tywin pillaging the Riverlands. You were also the one who defended Daenerys torturing two innocent girls in front of their father with "she was just trying to bring killers to justice". Most of the characters in ASOIAF have done terrible things, but I guess it's only fine to defend the terrible actions of characters you like, but if you don't like the characters, then you just think that they are bad people who don't have any justifiable reason to do what they do, etc, even though Cersei hasn't actually done worse than some of the people you defend. And you claim that Cersei had so many choices to save her children, but you didn't even bother to list any of them (no, taking Ned's offer doesn't count for the reasons I already explained) and just switch back to your argument about how I defend bad people even though you literally defend Daenerys who burned a rape victim alive, chose over 100 random people to crucify just because 1 or 2 of them committed a terrible crimes and tortured 2 innocent girls in front of their father. And she doesn't even have Cersei's excuse that her family's lives were in danger in these instances, she just wanted to impose her own version of "justice" because she thinks that everything she does and says is right because she is the "rightful ruler". Just admit that your prejudiced treatment against Cersei compared to other characters doesn't stem from any moral high ground but because you simply don't like Cersei but you like these other characters and that's the only reason why you are willing to excuse them and not her and the reason for your opinions doesn't actually stem from any morality but from whether you personally like or dislike the character.
  8. Cersei loves her children, meanwhile Tywin doesn't love any of his kids (which is even listed on his Near Pure Evil page). Cersei is Also capable of feeling remorse unlike Tywin. Also, Cersei has much bigger excuses for her actions than Tywin. Tywin didn't experience the following things: 1) He didn't experience systematic sexism on a constant basis and had a much easier life than her because he was a man and a heir to Casterly Rock. 2) He wasn't emotionally abused and neglected by his own father all the time. 3) He didn't receive a prophecy which foretold his death and the death of all his kids which made him paranoid and caused him to commit crimes to stop it from happening. 4) He wasn't forced into an abusive marriage and raped for 14 years. 5) He wasn't threatened with execution and the execution of his lover and his kids if anyone finds out he is cheating on his abusive spouse. And Tywin is largely responsible for the way Cersei is which makes him even worse than her. If Cersei was raised by, say Ned Stark, who was a supportive father and taught his children moral values and wasn't emotionally abusive, she would have become a good person.
  9. Yeah, Ned promised to "protect" by simply giving her a little headstart before he tells Robert. After that, Robert would have found her through Varys' magical network of spies and would have killed her and her kids. I really don't see where this whole argument that Ned promised her protection comes from when he literally threatens her life and just gives her a few days to get out of the city before he tells Robert about her cheating on him who would execute her for it. And even if she took his offer, she and her kids would have still died, so her only option to protect her family was to stay in the capital, kill Robert and then deal with Ned afterwards. She had no other choice.
  10. Yeah, let's blame a woman who is seriously traumatized by her abusive marriage to a rapist for not wanting to have said rapist's children. Do you realize that a lot of women who are raped, abort their rapist's child simply because they can't cope with the trauma. Are these women also evil/immoral or whatever because they don't want to have a child from the person who raped. Why do you expect Cersei to have a child with a man who raped her, so that this child could remind her further of what she has experienced and traumatize her further. How selfish of her that Cersei doesn't want this? And yeah, let's blame this traumatized woman for the war doing what most women do after being raped just because she is in a position as queen and even though there are so many other people who are to blame for the deaths. You are essentially saying that Cersei has to put up with rape and has to endure the trauma of having a child which would remind her of her rapes and say she is evil because she doesn't want this. And for the record, Cersei tried to avoid the war by negotiating with Ned Stark to leave her alone, so it's not like Cersei wanted to be caught or cause a succession war. Ned Stark was the one who chose to try to arrest her still, which means that the choice to prevent the war was his and he chose to try and arrest her for the sake of his "honor" which directly led to the war. Just because he is more "honorable" than Cersei and because he was following the oppressive and sexist laws of his society while Cersei wasn't, doesn't mean he is not at least as much responsible for what happened as Cersei. Or why don't you actually blame the people who order war crimes to be committed against the common folk which is something Cersei doesn't do by the way, because she was pretty inactive during the war and her overall body count is pretty low. Or why don't you blame Littlefinger who was the one who intentionally caused the War of the Five Kings in the first place but blame a traumatized woman who simply didn't want to have her rapist's children and wasn't aiming to cause it in the first place? The only reason why you only blame Cersei is because you don't like her but you like or are indifferent to characters like Ned, or Jaime, or Littlefinger, or Lysa, etc., so of course they are completely blameless for the war unlike the woman who didn't want to have children with her rapist. Tywin also shares a much bigger fault than Cersei because he was the one who ordered the Riverlands to be decimated, making him responsible for the biggest war crimes during the war and the biggest amount of victims, yet I don't see you blaming him either.
  11. She is doing them to prevent Maggy's prophecy from coming true because she fears for the lives of her children. This makes her tragic because the prophecy has clearly traumatized her and is causing her to commit terrible actions out of desire to protect her loved ones.
  12. Also, no. According to more modern understanding, a tragic villain is someone who has suffered from some kind of tragic experience throughout their life which has impacted their personality negatively and has caused them to commit morally questionable or evil acts for whatever reason. A person who has some redeeming qualities but is brought down by some flaw they have would not be considered tragic if they haven't actually experienced a tragic event in their lives.
  13. Cersei has good qualities. i will copy and paste them: Also, no. Someone who was once a good person or even a hero, but later in life becomes evil can still be Pure Evil if they willingly choose to subvert all of their good qualities and in fact these types of characters are oftentimes more depraved than the more traditional villains. Examples of this include Sauron from Lord of the Rings, Saruman from Lord of the Rings movies, Light Yagami from Death Note, Zamasu from Dragon Ball, the Lord Commander from Final Space, Darth Krayt from Star Wars, Poison Ivy from the Batman & Robin film, etc. These are all characters who started out as good people and in some cases like Darth Krayt, Sauron and Saruman they were even great heroes who have done a lot of good deeds, but they have become Pure Evil by subverting all of their good qualities and committing evil acts which allow them to stand out. This means that none of them are considered to be tragic because the fact they are Pure Evil means they don't have a valid tragedy which could explain why they have decided to subvert all of their redeeming qualities and why they have decided to become evil despite initially starting out as good people. Granted, there is an explanation provided for all of them, but it's not enough to explain their actions, so it doesn't count. Meanwhile, Cersei is tragic because she would have been a good person if not for the tragedies which have occurred in her life, she has excuses for her actions and redeeming qualities (unlike the abovementioned characters who used to be good and in some cases even great heroes but have subverted all of their good qualities at some point in pursuit of selfish goals).
  14. Also, most of the other women didn't suffer through the combination of all the same things Cersei has gone through, so I really don't like how people focus just on that. Cersei has probably suffered far more than any other woman in the series except Dany, yet people act like what she went through is something all women in Westeros generally go through which is not the case.
  15. We also don't know if she really didn't try to help Melara because the text never mentions it. For all we know, she may have tried to help Melara, but failed to do it in time which would explain why she feels guilt and why she quickly tries to forget about it every time she starts thinking about it. I would say, wait at least until the 6th book comes out which would probably shed more light on this situation before using this to condemn Cersei based on pure speculation and fan interpretation
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