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boltons are sick

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  1. I am asking this question because I see that a lot of fans who have grown disinterested to the series because of the long time it takes for George to write his books and especially after the ending of the show. For example, I managed to convince my mom to read the series and she really enjoyed it but now, more than a year after finishing it, she told me that she is beginning to lose interest in the series because there is nothing new and she read the series because she expected George would finish the next book very soon. Similarly, I know a lot of people from my previous class who have only watched the TV series and they didn't like the second half. Now, they don't even want to talk about the series and claim Game of Thrones is dumb (and I am assuming they won't give the books a chance). I myself read the books around 7-8 years ago and I am still a fan of the franchise but I admit that my interest is starting to wane because there are no new books. Since I finished the series, I got into a lot of other franchises - I read The First Law trilogy by Joe Abercrombie, I watched Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul, I watched the anime Death Note and last year I watched a lot of anime/western animation series like Netflix's Castlevania, League of Legends' Arcane, She-Ra and the Princesses of Power, Monster and Attack on Titan. I also watched Squid Game (which, by the way, is said to be on its way to become a more popular series than Game of Thrones). I also read some classic Russian and Western literature. I also read some fanfics (my favorite is based on She-Ra and the Princesses of Power and is called "Cat-Ra". It is now almost 1, 500, 000 words and is still not finished, but the author is very good at reimagining the characters from the show while at the same time, keeping their personalities). My question is, do you think ASOIAF will be a cultural 50 years from now considering how many people are already losing interest in the franchise both because of the long delay for the next book and because of the show's bad ending and that right now it's a lot easier to publish your own story and there are constantly new fantasy and sci-fi IPs emerging which draws attention away from ASOIAF? I am not saying it won't have a small, devoted following in the far future, I am just saying that almost no one will talk about it decades from now, but I want to hear your thoughts on the matter.
  2. If you are curious, you can read Johan Liebert's page on the Pure Evil wiki where all of his crimes are listed.
  3. For those of you who don’t know, there are three wikis for villains. One of them is called Pure Evil wiki (which, in short, is about villains with no redeeming or sympathetic qualities), the second is called Near Pure Evil wiki (which, in short, is about villains with almost no redeeming or sympathetic qualities but they still can’t qualify for the Pure Evil wiki for some reason). There is also a third wiki called the Inconsistently Heinous wiki (which, in short, is about characters who have committed awful crimes, but they still have too many redeeming and sympathetic qualities and excuses for their actions to qualify as Pure Evil or Near Pure Evil). The name “Inconsistently Heinous” means that the characters are too inconsistent in their heinousness to be Near Pure Evil. Cersei is listed on the Inconsistently Heinous wiki because it was decided that she is way too sympathetic to qualify as Pure Evil or Near Pure Evil (to give you an idea, Walter White, Dexter Morgan, Michael Corleone, Darth Vader, Sand dan Glokta, the show version of Daenerys Targaryen, the book version of Tyrion, the Joker from the 2019 film and many other characters like that are listed as Inconsistently Heinous). There is a user on the Near Pure Evil wiki who wrote some comments in the Discord group about Cersei and why she doesn’t qualify as Near Pure Evil. This is one of them: Since then, one person has tried to propose Cersei as a possible Near Pure Evil candidate but she was quickly rejected because the people there decided that she has way too many redeeming and sympathetic qualities to qualify as Near Pure Evil (a Near Pure Evil character can have some minor redeeming and sympathetic qualities but Cersei has so many that she can’t qualify as Near Pure Evil) and thus, she doesn’t meet the criteria to be Near Pure Evil. Also, this is what the same person wrote about Cersei in another comment: Also, I will list all of Cersei's redeeming and sympathetic qualities that are also written on her page on the Inconsistently Heinous wiki which explain why she can't qualify as Pure Evil or Near Pure Evil: She loves her family members except for Tyrion (more specifically, her children, her brother and lover, Jaime, her father, Tywin and her mother, Joanna). She is very protective of her children, doesn't want them to die and constantly fears for their safety. When her son Joffrey dies, she breaks down over his corpse and cries and then she stays with his corpse and mourns it for days. At one point, she has a nice dream where Joffrey is still alive and she marries her brother, Jaime. She is angry when Tyrion sends her daughter, Myrcella, to Dorn without her permission and starts threatening him. She breaks down into tears when he mentions that if Myrcella stays, she could be killed in the coming battle. She is also shocked when she learns that Myrcella has lost one of her ears. In the fourth book she gets very protective of her son, Tommen, after the death of Joffrey. When Tommen chokes on his wine, she is afraid that someone had poisoned him, quickly stands up and goes to him to help. When she discovers that no one has poisoned him, she goes away and starts crying. During her imprisonment by the Faith Militant, she constantly thinks about her son and how she wants to go back to him. When she goes back to him, she starts spending a lot more time with him than ever before because she was relieved to see him again after her long imprisonment. At one point, she had a nightmare where Tyrion has tied her up. She begs him to spare her kids, even though in the dream her own life is in danger. She also incestiously loves Jaime. While she mistreats him in the fourth book and sends him away, she still thinks often about him and when she is imprisoned, she has a dream about marrying him. When he doesn't come to rescue her, she feels hurt on a personal level and desperately tries to convince herself that her letter for help probably didn't reach him or else he would come back for her. She loves her father as she wants his respect, constantly thinks about what he would do and is sad when he dies. She loves her mother. She blames her younger brother, Tyrion, for "killing" her mother because this is what she saw from her father. She also mentions to Sansa that when she was a little girl she prayed to the Gods to give her mother back. There are a few occasions, where she is even nice to Tyrion. At one point, they share a cup of wine and laugh at a joke and Cersei even hugs him and lifts him after he delivers some good news to her. On another occasion, when one of the men refuses to follow Tyrion's orders, Cersei interferes and the man starts following. On another occasion, she admits that Tyrion is very useful and apologizes for how she had treated him in the past. She ends up subverting this because in the present, she wants to kill Tyrion and has put a bounty on his head. But the reason for this is because she genuinely believes that he wants to kill her remaining kids, has killed Joffrey and her father and is conspiring against. Another prevention is that Cersei is a bit too tragic and her tragedy holds up. She lost her mother at the age of 7, she was born in a highly sexist society where women are inferior to men and she had to witness every day how she and Jaime would be treated differently (one example is that Jaime was groomed to be Tywin's heir because he was a boy, even though Cersei was older than him) and this treatment made Cersei extremely resentful of her status. At the age of 10, Cersei received a prophecy from Maggy that all of her kids would die, that a younger and more baeutiful queen would take everything she holds dear and then Cersei herself would be killed by her younger brother. Needless to say, this made Cersei very paranoid about her life and the lives of her children and made her even more abusive towards Tyrion because she believes that he is the younger brother from the prophecy. A lot of the crimes that are listed above are an attempt to prevent this prophecy from happening and saving her children and herself. Another aspect that makes her tragic is that her father, Tywin, was neglectful most of the time and he was a brutal ruler who taught his kids that they should be merciless, that they should care about morality only about the end results and so on. There is enough evidence that Cersei was seriously affecte by this upbringing. For example, on one occasion, while she is torturing the Blue Bard, she feels bad for him and wants to stop the torture. But then, she remembers that her father would probably be ashamed of her sign of weakness and he wouldn't do something like that, so she continues with the torture. She was married to Robert Baratheon, who cheated on her and abused her by sometimes even raping her which also has an affect on her because she feels powerless during the rapes and she doesn't want this to happen again. In the world of Westeros if it's discovered that she had cheated on her husband with Jaime, she and all of her kids would be executed. The reason why she kills Robert and Ned is because she wants to protect her life and the life of her kids from execution. In general, she has suffered from systematic sexism for most of her life starting from childhood where she and Jaime were treated differently because of their gender and Jaime was groomed to become the heir to Casterly Rock while she was groomed to be married off despite being older than her brother. When she was married to her husband, she also suffered from the sexism of her society because her husband was allowed to cheat on her while if she was caught cheating, she and her entire family would be executed. She was also raped because there was no definition of marital rape in Westeros. As the above examples show, she also suffers from a lot of insecurities (about being a woman, winning her father's approval, being fit to rule, etc.). She also has insecurities about not having any friends and she immediately decides to befriend the first woman she meets in the fourth book simply because she doesn't want to feel lonely. There is a small moment where she displays a little honor. After Ned gives her a chance to escape with her children from the city before he reports to Robert that she had been cheating on him, Cersei tells him that she because of this she would allow him to go back to Winterfell with his life if he kneels to Joffrey and swears fealty to him. Ned doesn't do it and he ends up dead for this reason. Even though she is rude to Sansa, she still tries to give her advice about how to rule as a Queen, about the specifics of the female body and that she shouldn't love too many people or else she would get hurt. It's implied that the reason for this is because Cersei sees Sansa as a younger and more inexperienced version of herself. She ends up subverting that by desiring to execute Sansa but the reason for that is because she genuinely believes that Sansa was involved in joffrey's death. She is capable of feeling remorse on certain occasions. After the torture of the Blue Bard, she feels bad about it and tries to justify herself. During her Walk of Shame, she sees Sansa Stark and other people she had wronged, remembers about Ned Stark and it's heavily implied that she feels bad about some of the things she has done throughout her life. She is also played for sympathy a lot as shown by the above examples. Aside from the examples that are already mentioned, during the Walk of Shame when she paraded naked through the streets of the city and the common people throw things at her, the story tries to frame the moment as an "Alas. Poor Villain" by presenting it from Cersei's point of view, presenting it in excrusiating detail, showing how it affects her psyche and showing that she feels some remorse during the event. The story clearly tries to make the readers feel bad for her during this chapter. I just wanted to let everyone know that Cersei (who is universally hated by the fandom) and Tyrion (who is un universally beloved by the fandom) are listed under THE SAME WIKI (because they have both commited awful crimes but they both have way too many redeeming qualities and excuses for their actions to be Pure Evil or Near Pure Evil which means they both fit the criteria to be Inconsistently Heinous). So, do you agree with these opinions or not?
  4. TV Tropes thinks that he is and he was recently added to the list of ASOIAF characters who were approved as Complete Monsters (you can read more about this trope here). Here is his Complete Monster entry on TV Tropes: Lo Bu, the "Boy Too Bold By Half", was the final inheritor of the Golden Empire of Yi Ti. Totally without mercy, when the neighboring Jogos Nhai stepped up the frequency of their regular raids, Lo Bu opted to exterminate not only the raiders but the entire Jogos Nhai people, even the women and the children, to make a permanent example of them. At least one million Jogos Nhai perished as Lo Bu's armies marched across the plains—"unswayed by tributes, hostages, oaths of fealty or offerings of peace"—leaving behind nothing but slaughtered ruins. Lo Bu's cruelty dooms his entire empire in the end, as the Jogos Nhai, driven by the desperation to survive, slaughter Lo Bu and topple the Golden Empire for good. The reason why he was approved as a Complete Monster by TV Tropes was because he attempted to commit total genocide on the Jogos Nhai people which consists of millions of people (this would give him the highest attempted body count in all of ASOIAF aside from the Bloodstone Emperor) and he successfully killed over a million people many of whom were women and children. However, there was a long discussion on whether or not the fact the Jogos Nhai raided his empire is mitigating but in the end it was decided that the Jogos Nhai never attempted genocide on the people of Yi Ti and there is no indication that Lo Bu actually cares about his people and simply wants to appear strong. So, reading the discription for the trope and knowing about Lo Bu's character, do you agree that he is a Complete Monster or not?
  5. I have read The World of Ice and Fire some time ago and I must say that there are a lot of brutal deeds commited there. But who in your opinion was the most brutal and evil character that doesn't appear in the main ASOIAF series? Please, make a list of them and write a few sentences of what they have done that's so barbaric that they have earned a spot on the list.
  6. It's strange that you hate Tyrion for being a rapist but at the same time you completely ignore that Tywin had a young girl gang raped by an entire garrison of soldiers. What Tywin did is much worse than what Tyrion did and Tyrion at least felt some remorse.
  7. I would say something in between. He has done a lot of awful things but he has also suffered quite a lot throughout his life and he is capable of doing good things as well as bad.
  8. Do be honest, probably yeah. However, the only plausible situation where sacrifing millions of people would give her power is if she starts serving the Chaos Gods (the servants of Chaos have the reputation for being the worst fraction in 40k after the Dark Eldar for a reason). Otherwise, she would just be a ruthless, scheming noble who commits political assassinations on her rivals and tortures people when she needs information but that's hardly anything special for Warhammer 40000.
  9. I really doubt that Tywin or Cersei would reach the level of the abovementioned villains. They will surely be oppresive to their people but they would not commit atrocities to the same extent as the servants of Chaos, the Dark Eldar or Goge Vandire. Also, Cersei already has a lot of power in Westeros (she is literally the ruler of the entire kingdom) and despite this she doesn't really commit any gigantic massacres. She just hurts a limited amount of people that are close to her.
  10. Warhammer 40000 actually has complex villains. Warmaster Horus is the first one to come to mind. His actions are just as bad as the abovementioned examples but he was driven by his own insecurities that his father, the Emperor, would cast him aside as soon as the galaxy is conquered and his accomplishments would be forgotten in time. Erebus and the Chaos Gods used this to manipulate him and turn him against the Imperium and he commited many atrocities like destroying and commiting genocide on the Interix civilization (which spans for over 30 solar systems), arranging a huge massacre where he killed hundreds of thousands of his brethren Space Marines, corrupted many of his followers to Chaos, started a civil war which tore the galaxy apart and claimed the lives of trillions of people, sacrificed the inhabitants of an entire solar system and sent their souls to be tortured forever, so that he can empower powerful Daemons, attempted to kill his own father, etc. However, before the manipulations of Erebus he was a noble person who wanted to serve the Imperium and help humanity prosper. Also, in his dying moments Horus displays deep remorse for his many atrocities and even asks his father to kill him because he can't live with himself after what he has done. So, I would say that Horus is a complex villain (though not on the same level as some of the ASOIAF examples). Lorgar is another example of a complex villain. At first he wanted only to worship the Emperor as a god and upon conquering a planet, he would convert the local population to his newly created faith. However, worshipping someone as a god in the world of 40k unintentionally empowers the Chaos Gods as well and the Emperor was forced to stop this by massacring millions of worshippers in front of Lorgar and destroying an entire city. This caused Lorgar to lose his faith in the Emperor and he wanted something else to worship. For that reason, he was easily manipulated by Erebus and he started worshipping the Chaos Gods. He also commited many atrocities to appease the Chaos Gods (like massacring the population of 27 planets to perform a ritual which requires a gigantic human sacrifice) but he does these things because he suffers from deep insecurities and wants his efforts at worshipping to be appreciated. The Emperor is not exactly a villain and he is the closest thing this universe has to a hero but he is also a xenophobe who wants to slaughter all alien life in the entire galaxy and has destroyed countless civilizations and has killed trillions of innocent beings. He also regularly kills billions of his own subjects if he suspects that they are breaking his rules not to communicate with aliens and has created the Inqusition who have the authority to torture many people to death and destroy entire planets. However, his ultimate goal is to make humanity the strongest fraction in the galaxy and he genuinely cares about protecting humanity (in fact, his desire to exterminate all aliens stems from his belief that this would make humans the superior species and that all aliens are potential threat) and he also loves his sons so much to the point where when Horus tries to kill him, the Emperor refuses to defend himself because he doesn't want to harm his beloved son. So, there are complex villains in the world of 40k even though most of them are cartoonishly evil.
  11. Yeah, I agree with that. Just wanted to point out that the 40k villains are more vile even though a lot of people think that the ASOIAF villains are the most evil.
  12. I have been in the ASOIAf community for a long time now and everyone is talking how GRRM creates some really repulsive and over the top villains. However, the villains from Westeros are much less evil than the villains from the 40k universe. Below, I will copy and paste all the entries of the Warhammer 40000 villains who were approved as Complete Monsters by TV Tropes (you can read the criteria for the trope here).
  13. As I mentioned, this list is in no particular order and I agree that Ramsay is worse than Joffrey. The list wasn't created by me but by TV Tropes for their trope called Complete Monster and while Tywin is certainly very bad, he has some redeeming qualities which prevent him from qualifying for the trope.
  14. Out of curiosity, but why do you put the High Sparrow above Walder and Cersei? The only bad thing he has done so far is forcing Cersei to walk naked through the streets and even though I felt bad for her and in general I sympathize with Cersei, I really doubt this is as bad as the Red Wedding or some of the things Cersei herself has done. Also, if you don't think that Aerys is evil because he is mentally unstable, you shouldn't label the Biter as evil too. GRRM revealed that the reason why the Biter was so messed up is because Rorge found him when he was an orphan on the streets of King's Landing and decided to raise him. Rorge then cut off Biter's tongue, filed his teeth into points and then forced him to fight in a pit against dogs and bears with only his bare teeth. This would mess anyone up, so I don't put him as high as some of the other characters. From the two of them, Rorge is the bigger monster by far and I definitely would rank him among the most evil characters in the ASOIAF universe despite his minor role. Here is his entry on TV Tropes (I bolded the part where it's explained what Rorge did to Biter):
  15. I don't know Aerion, so I can't comment on him. Aerys, Tywin, Roose and Walder have redeeming qualities which means that they don't belong to this trope. Of course, you can still think that they are among the most evil characters and should be included in a list of the most evil ASOIAF characters because that's subjective. Aerys genuinely loves his children and mourns their deaths after they are born in stillborn forms and then tried to comfort his mourning wife as well. Plus, you could make an argument that his insanity is so intense that it affects his moral agency and capacity to make rational decisions which is another thing that would disqualify him from this trope. Tywin loves his wife, Joanna, and there are a lot of people who have known Tywin personally and claim that the two of them were happy together. Her death seems to affect Tywin considering that he blames Tyrion non-stop for it. He also loves Jaime and Cersei (he smiled brightly on the day they were born) and also appears to have a good relationship with his brother, Kevan. The conversation between Roose Bolton and Theon proves that he loved his firstborn son, Domeric Bolton. He mentions that he tried to warn him not to look for Ramsay and when he died, Roose was angry and wanted to kill Ramsay to avenge his son but didn't do it only because kinslaying is a great sin. Walder Frey appears to have some care for his family (or at least most of his family) plus I am not sure if he is bad enough compared to the rest of the characters.
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