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boltons are sick

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  1. Daenerys was a scared 13-year-old girl who probably suffered from Stockholm syndrome (the actress` words, not mine) so this comparison is not relevant. Nowadays if a husband kills his wife for cheating on him he would receive a long sentence from the court. The only exceptions are backwater countries from the Middle East and Africa but even they are gradually changing. Meanwhile cheating is just considered amoral but it is not illegal and it is not punishable by the laws. So even the law enforcers agree with me. Yes, Cersei deserves to be executed for cheating on her husband, just like Ned Stark isn`t obliged to provide a fair trial for that deserter he executed, Theon Greyjoy deserves to be executed for the mistakes made by his father while he is into Stark custody, the slaves deserve to be treated like dirt and if they run they should be killed because they belong to their masters, Jon Snow and all the other bastards deserve to be treated like dirt because they are bastards, Tyrion Lannister deserves to be killed upon his birth or abused throughout his life because this is what people normally did to dwarves back then, Roose Bolton and Ramsay Bolton are entitled to rape as many women as they want because they are their peasants, etc. I don`t think we are supposed to accept the Westerosi customs. However, while most people agree that the examples I listed are unfair, for some reason they think that Cersei deserves to be executed for cheating even though her husband does EXACTLY THE SAME THING. I guess the reason is because most people hate Cersei with passion and they like Robert and Ned and this is why they completely ignore the messages within the books.
  2. 1) Robert wasn`t forced to marry Cersei against his will. He decided to marry her to ensure her father`s support and he could have divorced at any time but he didn`t because he didn`t want to lose Tywin`s support and gold. Meanwhile Cersei didn`t have much choice in the matter (even though you could argue that at first she was happy but that doesn`t change anything) and she couldn`t divorce. 2) The fact that Cersei and Jaime are twins is irrelevant to our discussion. Even if Cersei decided to sleep with someone else, this would still be considered treason by Westerosi laws and she would still face the danger of losing her life and the lives of her kids and lover. I don`t know why people feel the need to constantly point out the Cersei has an incestious relationship when discussing her marriage with Robert even though it is completely irrelevant to the subject. And I don`t think that anyone deserves to be executed for sleeping with their siblings even though I personally don`t approve of such relationships and find them disgusting. 3) Yes, you are right. Cersei tried to pass her bastards as Robert`s. However, you are forgetting the fact that if she admitted that those kids weren`t from her husband, she would be immediately imprisoned (and possibly tortured to tell the name of her lover) and then she would be executed along with her kids and Jaime. Her prime motivation to keep her kids` true parentage secret was not to gain access to Robert`s property but to protect her life and the lives of her family.
  3. The reason why she did it in the first place was because she genuinely loved Jaime and was forced in an abusive marriage against her will. The reason why cheating on the king was considered treason in Meddieval ages was because back then the people were sexist and classist. Nobody should be executed for cheating on their spouse (espessially if the spouse in question also cheated on them and even RAPED them). She didn't choose Robert as her husband and he abused her and cheated on her as well. I agree that Cersei and Jaime's love is twisted because they are twins but if Cersei had slept with someone that she is not related to, it would have been considered treason again. The incest doesn't play any role in this. Choosing the biological father of your kids is considered a basic human right these days so as 21-century readers I don't think we are supposed to condemn Cersei for this. And Cersei didn't want to start a war. She wanted to keep her affair secret. Meanwhile Ned wanted to expose her affair due to his own classist beliefs and start a war instead of taking her offer and making peace with her. I am not saying that Ned is a villain or that Cersei is a wonderful person. I am simply trying to point out that there is more complexity in these books than "Starks good, Lannisters bad".
  4. No, you didn`t. Don`t worry about it. There is no need to apologise for simply expressing your opinion. I just wanted to point out that this Redddit post is not written by me and there are things in it that I myself disagree with.
  5. I am not saying they are the true villains of ASOIAF. I just found this topic on Reddit and decided to share it because I found it thought-provoking and interesting.
  6. I don`t think he is a villain and he is one of the more likeable characters. I just said that he knew very well that his actions would lead to war even if he had succeeded in his plans (because he would still have to fight with Tywin Lannister. Yes, Cersei is partially responsible for this war as well (like many other people) but my point was that she didn`t try to create it intentionally. In fact she actually tried to prevent it by trying to make peace first with Ned Stark and then with Robb Stark (for selfish reasons, but still...).
  7. Actually, even if Ned had succeeded in arresting Joffrey and Cersei, he would still have to fight Tywin Lannister. War was unevitable in that case and he knew it. However, Cersei gave him TWO CHANCES to make peace with her before his arrest and he didn`t take them. The reason why most readers don`t see this is because the story is told from Ned`s perspective and he is a likeable character and for these reasons most people immediately side with him and don`t question his decisions. However, I agree that he is not a villain.
  8. I get your point. However, one of the main themes of this series IS moral relativism. For example, you mentioned that Walder Frey and the Red Wedding are evil. However, if you look at it from his perspective, he felt really offended and betrayed by Robb. This is not an excuse but you have to keep in mind that Walder lost 4 of his grandsons in this war and he blames Robb for their deaths. There is also the fact that at that point the Lannisters and the Tyrells were winning the war and were punishing the losing side. He had to somehow prove that he no longer had any loyalty to the Stark cause in order to protect his family and his lands. There is also the fact that he was mocked for most of his life by the Tullies and he felt unappreciated and disrespected. I actually don`t think that the Red Wedding is among the biggest atrocities in the series. It is bad but it is not as bad as some people claim. It just happens to fan favorite characters. As for Kraznys, he was just raised in a society where these actions are considered perfectly normal. As a slavemaster from the Free Cities he is actually expected to act like that. In a way he is like Victarion Greyjoy who also does very brutal things because he was raised like that. Tywin also does some really bad things. However, he also brought stability and peace to the Westlands. His motivation behind his acts is becaue he wants to rule well and he doesn`t want to be like his father. In fact, there are a lot of people who worship him throughout the realm. If you haven`t read The World of Ice and Fire, you should definitely read it. It makes Tywin a more relatable and understandable character. Ramsay and Gregor seem to suffer from psychological issues. Robb Stark and Daenerys also commited war crimes and nobody thinks they are evil. As for the WW2 the Nazi do commit a lot of horible crimes but so do the English, the Russians and the Americans. In fact the Americans commit the biggest crime in the war by bombing two big Japanese cities with nuclear bombs (this is worse than anything Hitler has done). And as a native Bulgarian I can tell you that during the war the English bombed our capital and killed thousands of innocent people. They even went so far as to throw toys on the streets tha were charged with explosives and many Bulgarian kids were torn to shreds by the explosives in question thrown by Churchill`s men. The only reason why the Americans and the English are considered "good" and the Germans are considered "bad" is because the Western Allies won the war and write the history and the Nazi lost the war. In fact, if you read Mein Kampf (the book written by Hitler) you would see that he genuinely believes in his ideas and there are a lot of truths he says. The reason why he started the war in the first place was because England and France treated Germany unfairly after te end of WW1. I don`t condone his attempted genocide on the Jews but that doesn`t mean that there aren`t truths in his ideology. This is why I don`t think that people should be divided in "good" and "bad" categories because it is simplistic. That doesn`t mean I agree with the said actions, I just think that we should judge an event by looking at all the angles and not just claiming that the Starks are "good" and the Lannisters are "evil".
  9. Yes, it is a fun theory. There are things I don`t agree with but there are also a lot of things I agree with. I do believe think that most readers (at least from what I have read in the forums) tend to simplify the story because they think that the Starks are the "good guys" and the Lannisters are "bad guys". The reason for this is because in most fictional stories usually there are two sides - the "bad" side which wants to oppress people, commit genocide or something like that (the Empire in Star Wars, the Orcs in LOTR, the Death Eaters in Harry Potter etc.) and there is a "good" side that seeks to stop them. However, here in Asoiaf the Starks and the Lannisters are just two factions which fight for their own interests. The Lannisters are not some evil organisation who seeks to oppress people or to extinguish all life, they are just a bunch of disfunctional assholes who are protecting their interests. Similarly, the Starks are not helping the greater good by fighting the Lannisters, they are protecting their own interests. In fact, they are ruinig a lot of lives by waging war agains the Lannisters. Most people see the Starks as the "good guys" because they are not as disfunctional as the Lannisters and because most of the story is presented from their POV. It doesn`t help that in the first book GRRM deliberately plays with this trope because he knows that it is very common in fantasy. However, he later subverts it by showing the POVs of both Jaime and Cersei. However, the damage has already been done and both characters are very misunderstood in different ways, in my opinion. Most people think that before Jaime lost his hand he was "bad" but after losing his hand he is now "good" but he is more complex than that. Similarly, most people seem to think that Cersei is ust some scheming bitch and she is one of the most hated characters in literature even though she is a very tragic character, has redeeming qualities and the reason why she killed her husband in the first place was because otherwise he would have executed her and her kids (and because he raped her). These books are a lot more complex than "Starks are good, Lannisters are bad".
  10. I found a really interesting topic on Reddit about who the true villains on ASOIAF are. There are a lot of things I disagree with but it is clear that the writer has put a lot of though into it. You could read it and express your opinions in the comments. What do you think?
  11. My point was that he was angry that Robert cheated on his daughter and decided to punish the whore that Robert slept with and her children. And I don`t know where people get this idea that Tywin is not spiteful and only pragmatic - he organized the gang rape of a 13-year old child because he was pissed that she had married Tyrion, he paraded Tytos` mistress through the streets of LP because he was pissed that she had influence over his father, he killed every last peasant and servant of the Reynes only because he was pissed at them, he sent Gregor Clegane against the Riverlands because he was pissed that Catelyn had kidnapped his son (he could have just written a letter to Robert), he killed Elia and her kids because he was pissed that Rhaeger didn`t marry his daughter, he treated Tyrion like crap because he was angry that he had 'killed' Joahanna, he pillaged King`s Landing for no reason at all, he tortured a singer to death only because he was pissed at something that the singer had said, he killed Masha Heddle and all the inhabitants of her village because he was pissed that they didn`t do anything to prevent the arrest of Tyrion... Tywin has positive traits, too, but he is a pretty spiteful person, in my opinion.
  12. Yes, but Tywin could have felt offended by Robert cheating on his daughter. Also, tywin claims that he does all his evil deeds for the good of the house but there are many instances where he does evil things out of spite (the gang rape of Tysha, the Walk of Shame of Tytos` mistress). And I don`t think that at this point Cersei was afraid of exposure at the slightest.
  13. I was rereading aGoT and I stumbled upon this part where LF informs Ned that Cersei had killed 2 of Robert`s children and sold their mother into slavery because Robert slept with her when he was in Casterly Rock. However, the more I think about it, the more I am starting to realize that it was actually Tywin who did the deed. He was pissed off because Robert was cheating on his daughter. Let me explain why I think so. Firstly, I don`t believe that the queen has the power to do this in Casterly Rock. Tywin is the ruler of CR after all. He is the one giving orders. Secondly, Robert has over 16 children but only the ones in CR (where Tywin rules) were killed. Isn`t that a bit suspicious? If Cersei really killed those 2 boys, then why didn`t she also kill the other 14. I am sure that some of you will bring up as an argument that she killed those 2 bastards in aCoK but she did it only after her secret was threatened to be exposed and not out of malice. Their murder was for political reasons and she could have done it a lot earlier. Thirdly, LF is not the most trustworthy source. If you remember, he later tells Sansa that Tyrion had given Tysha to his guards for a gang rape which we all know is a lie. In aGoT, LF`s goal was to bring Ned`s attention to Robert`s bastards and to make him suspicious of Cersei. And LF tells that he had heard "rumors". So, what do you think? Did Cersei do it, did Tywin do it or did LF simply make this whole story up? I`d like to point out that I am not a "Cersei apologist" and I am not trying to vilify Tywin (who is a real badass). I am just trying to express my opinion and to make an interesting discussion.
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