Jump to content

Headfallsoff

Members
  • Content count

    13
  • Joined

  • Last visited

About Headfallsoff

  • Rank
    Commoner

Recent Profile Visitors

The recent visitors block is disabled and is not being shown to other users.

  1. Headfallsoff

    "Bittersweet" can't happen in the show

    Renly's sexuality is not such a terrible thing as you suggest, there are no laws against it (as Joffrey wonders if he should make it illegal to Margaery), and it's only when Cersei armed the Faith militant that that they were given the power to imprison, kill and torture others. And the Faith also considers bastardy and adultery a sin, that's three strikes against Robert. Whatever you mentioned does not say anything about Renly's qualities as a ruler, Show Renly would definitely be a better king than Robert or Stannis, since he was actually interested in the well being of the people, hated War, was well loved by the commons, and would not waste his time whoring and drinking. His in-laws the Tyrells although ambitious, were still benevolent, and would steer the kingdom in the right direction. And he had every right to go against Stannis, as Stannis would make a terrible king, proven when he later doomed his cause by burning his daughter alive to get through a snowstorm. He thinks he is owed the people's loyalty, and does nothing to earn it. He would be an autocratic despot who would be overthrown after a few months, especially since he practised a foreign religion.
  2. Headfallsoff

    "Bittersweet" can't happen in the show

    Ok thought this was the book forums (Don't ask why, it was a late night ..) Still doesn't make him a bad person and its still homophobic to say it makes him one. You're basically saying he should have been celibate or fuck women instead, terrible message. Also, the Faith would consider Robert sleeping with prostitutes a sin as well.
  3. Headfallsoff

    "Bittersweet" can't happen in the show

    Your point about Renly is rather homophobic, it does not make someone a bad person to sleep with other men, and it's never said that the Faith forbids homosexuality.
  4. I'll add that, in the books at least, Renly was left effectively alone to rule Storm's End at the age of 8. He also underwent trauma at the Siege of Storm's End, where he and Stannis were starved for a year. He was not close to either of his brothers, and might have blamed Stannis for his suffering during the Siege. This lack of familial security might have led to his kinship with the Tyrells, and him going against Stannis. To the children he "hurts" he did advocate for Daenerys' assassination, who was pregnant at the time. Very interesting series of posts, and I agree that the protection of children/lack thereof is very much a theme of ASOIAF!
  5. Headfallsoff

    How much does Mace Tyrell know about Loras?

    Points: -If this plan had been thought up by Renly alone without prior communication with Highgarden what he basically would have been doing was put himself in danger and then write to Mace out of nowhere to tell him he needed his daughter for an extremely dangerous plan and hoped he agreed to it. That would be extremely stupid of him. -If Renly was depending on the Tourney for Loras' arrival, he would have been bothered when Ned announced he was going to cancel it. Instead he's not, because Loras was coming anyway, to carry out the scheme. -Loras had come to KL with his personal guard, who are amongst the swords Renly offers to Ned in his coup. Now there must have been about 20, since Renly had 30, when they left they had 50 retainers, and when he adds the other allies in King's Landing to his personal retinue Renly says he has a 100 swords. That's a bit much for a third son, even Tyrion had just 2 retainers so Loras had gone to the capital with the thought that it would be dangerous in mind.
  6. Headfallsoff

    How much does Mace Tyrell know about Loras?

    He's not a man who would force himself on people not attracted to him. He takes pride in his attractiveness and how he can seduce people, he's not a rapist. And not marrying Ellaria has nothing to do with any of this, how do you even go there? Easy, it was a place which to Loras showed Renly trusted him and that he was his closest companion. Maybe it was a grove full of beautiful trees, or a cave, or something, some place he had never shown anyone else, and was therefore special to the two of them. No, that's just a hypothesis, which is just as valid as the hypothesis that he did indeed live there. Loras would have come to KL to carry out the scheme under the guise of entering in the Tourney, because the scheme had already been set in place before the Tourney. And if he was in Kings Landing the whole time, Ned not meeting him means nothing, Ned only met the Council members and the King's guard. Loras is neither. He does see him later, when he holds court as Hand of the King. If Loras lived in Highgarden, he could buy armour from OldTown and participate in the tourneys in the Reach. I'm assuming the armour Mott was talking about was the sapphire armour, since it was so beautiful and intricate. Which would mean it was made prior to the Tourney.... And the process of making the armour would take some time (googled it and it's said specialized armour would take months) which means Loras would be in KL prior to the creation of the armour (since he would need to describe it and etc), so several months before the Tourney, which would be more logical if Loras lived in KL. Loras would be considered a man grown in Westeros, he can reside where he wants. You're right, there is no indication. But it was probably recent, because Margaery was 14 in AGOT, if she was 12 at the time of the portrait she would be too young to attract Robert's attention. And it could be that she got the portrait painted on a whim, but the likelier version is that Renly and Loras had it painted for the scheme. Aha, there, exactly, Cersei already had fears of getting set aside before we even meet Renly. This means this plan was hatched before the Tourney. There is simply no reason for Renly to have a locket which has a picture of Margaery with no cause or explanation. Renly showed the locket to Ned only when people were already arriving to the capital, which does support my headcanon that Loras gave it to him on his arrival. The Tourney was announced as soon as Ned reached KL, which means if Renly wrote to Loras asking him to come (since Ned would be in the capital and they could move against Cersei, as it would be dangerous to move alone) his arrival there would coincide with the others who came for the Tourney (travel time from King's Landing to Highgarden takes about 1 month according to an accurate looking Timeline) which means it isn't necessary that Loras went to KL for the Tourney, but rather to move the plan forward. He wrote one letter. As said, this is a highly dangerous plan, especially for Margaery. What if Robert sleeps with Margaery, but then doesn't fall in love? What if Cersei nabs Margaery with a bunch of bandits? What if Robert hurts Margaery during sex? What if Robert gets Margaery pregnant but then just discards her? She'd be ruined. Etc etc Mace would never agree to this on the basis of a single letter. They'd have to hash it out beforehand. He wouldn't be a very good Lord then, and if he spent half his time as Lord of Storm's End making visits to KL, he would hardly get the support he got in canon. "Poisonous and mad" OK, you clearly don't have a bias against this character at all. Renly had the most political backing and was moving against the Lannisters, no one knew what Stannis was doing and it wasn't clear what he would do, so it was upto Renly. Its of my opinion that Renly knew the Lannister kids were not Cersei's. Whether he knew they were incest born or not is debatable, but it would make sense on why he was moving against them, instead of some "deep hatred" which we never see. He had Edric Storm in his castle, and plenty of time to observe Cersei and Robert's (really bad) relationship. And no one can be friends with Cersei for long, and Tywin and Cersei were planning to get rid of him the whole time, along with Stannis. [EDIT: Myrcella is Renly's "niece", and the High Septon protested against Maegor's marriage to Rhaena, which seems to indicate such incestuous marriages are frowned upon by the Faith.]
  7. Headfallsoff

    How much does Mace Tyrell know about Loras?

    So? Liking fighting doesn't mean you like to abuse squires. And there is zero indication of that. No it doesn't, the special place doesn't have to denote anything sexual. If Loras had said "Renly showed me a place where he'd pull his pants down and make me suck his cock" you'd be right but he doesn't so its left ambiguous. Exactly, there could be other armourers with his skill elsewhere. No, I don't agree. As said, Loras could have gone to Highgarden to get the portrait and convince Mace. Or maybe he just wasn't in court when Ned came and was off training or something. (he wasn't a Kingsguard or a member of the Council so he doesn't have an actual reason to be in the castle). If the plan was hatched in KL, why would Renly just have a portrait of Margaery on his person? Maybe he just loves Loras and wants to be reminded of Loras by looking at the portrait, since they look like twins - but it's far more plausible he had it on hand for the scheme. The portrait of Margaery that was comissioned was a recent portrait. That means Margaery had to sit down for it. This means Margaery and her family already knew about the plan when the portrait was painted, because she would need to be told the reason for the portrait - and why would Renly make an excuse and lie about why he needed it? He would know he fully needs Mace's cooperation to get Margaery out of Highgarden. Also, this plan was dangerous. Renly was very transparent in his efforts to get Robert to notice Margaery. Pycelle knew, so presumably Cersei did too - and as Renly said "Lannisters have no mercy" and would not hesitate to get rid of him. Why would Renly put his life in danger and put in a whole lot of effort, for a plan that Mace Tyrell might not even agree to? Mace Tyrell would have to know beforehand. Renly also likely waited until Ned and his other allies were in the capital for the Tourney so he would have support. The "100 swords" Renly mentions to Ned must have been the men he was planning to use in his repudiation of Cersei. Garlan was not present throughout the whole of AGOT, and there's even a possibility he wasn't a solidified character then. Mace would have taken care of matters in Highgarden, like preparing an entourage for his daughter. He'd be waiting for when the time was ripe to move to KL - hence the letter Loras wrote to him. If GRRM had even remembered Garlan, Garlan could have been part of that entourage, or he simply didn't want to take part in his family's plotting. How many joy visits can the Lord of Storm's End make? It makes more sense if Loras was at the capital with Renly. Renly mocks everyone. He mocks Littlefinger, he mocks Ilyn Payne, he mocks Barristan Selmy, he mocks Brienne. I don't think he particularly hated any of them. Renly also had a very desirable seat of power - Storm's End, which could have gone to Tommen. I doubt being Cersei's friend would stop her from wanting it for her son. He's also a danger to her kid's inheritance as the King's brother, he couldn't suck up to her as he's not a harmless lord like Littlefinger.
  8. Headfallsoff

    How much does Mace Tyrell know about Loras?

    You may have a point there about Oberyn, I forgot about Tyene's mother, but that doesn't suggest to me that he exploited her and discarded her as in he took what he wanted from her and she didn't want it herself, but rather that he seduced her. He seems to take great pride in his sexual conquests, so seducing a septa would be a feather in his cap for him. I think forcing himself on his squire who is in no way attracted to him would be very OOC. Though it is possible, there are still a ton of reasons Daemon might not like being reminded of the relationship, there's no need to immediately jump to sexual assault. And Oberyn and Daemon were likely not in love unlike the Prince and Jeremy, there's no reason to go around walking hand in hand especially since Oberyn would likely be with Ellaria then. Re: the pornography, Loras says Renly "owned a few [books] that would make a septon blind". It's never said that Renly showed him any and where he showed him, if he did show him. I also don't think this hinted at any sexual relationship, but at Renly's sexual orientation and his lackadaisal nature. As for the place Renly showed him once, it could be a place where they hung out with nothing sexual involved. It's also not known if Tobho Mott is the greatest armourer in Westeros. Mott says that he is the only armourer who can apply colour to armour without using paint "in King's Landing", meaning others outside KL know how to do the method as well. The Reach is the homeland of chivalry, where the culture of knighthood is strongest, so it wouldn't be far fetched to think that there are armourers with Mott's skill lying around. Loras would also need to take multiple visits to Mott, first to describe the armour, then to pick it up, which would take some time. Maybe Mace wanted Loras to stay at home because he wasn't yet the age of majority, but since he was knighted, had just ended his fostering, and was just one year way from 16, its more probable Loras did as he wanted. Stupidly, Jon argued. "I'll be fifteen on my name day," he said. "Almost a man grown." Benjen Stark frowned. "A boy you are, and a boy you'll remain until Ser Alliser says you are fit to be a man of the Night's Watch." -AGOT, Jon III Even the thought made him feel foolish; he was a man grown now, a black brother of the Night's Watch, not the boy who'd once sat at Old Nan's feet with Bran and Robb and Arya. -AGOT, Jon VII Benjen and Jon feel Jon is a man grown even though he's 15, because joining the Night's Watch is seen as a sign of maturity, Mace and Loras could feel the same about Loras' knighthood. Loras' job as a third son is to be a great Knight and to bring prestige to his family, something which can be accomplished by competing at any tourneys taking place, like how he competed at Joffrey's Nameday tourney. Being at the capital would bring him the most exposure and fame. Loras is also very known for his headstrong and brash nature, so he would argue that he should stay with Renly, and with him being Mace's favorite son, Mace would probably relent. Re: Renly being a recent addition, to me it seems like he'd been at his post for at least some time considering that he can crack jokes about Robert never attending council meetings and his rapport with Littlefinger, and Cersei bitterly remembering "Renly's mockery". The only actual memory Loras references of Renly at Storm's End is him showing him the special place, which is insubstantial in and of itself. So it's still very possible they waited after Loras was knighted, if someone wants to see it that way. Another thing that makes me think Loras lived in court is that Varys, Littlefinger, Oberyn, Cersei, Jaime, Stannis, and Gregor and his goons all appear to know about the relationship. This suggests to me that it was a source of gossip at the capital. The others can be explained away with spies, but Jaime or Gregor and his henchmen wouldn't have any, if Loras had lived at the capital this could be why their relationship was so well known. Re: the Tyrell plot being a brainchild of Renly's, I agree, but I meant that Loras would be in the capital anyway because of the plot and not the Tourney. Also it doesn't appear to me that Renly "despised" Cersei as such, but recognized that she's an enemy power in court and wanted to replace her with his allies. Also note the Margaery plot also benefits the Tyrells much more than Renly, so he was probably working in both their interests here.
  9. Headfallsoff

    How much does Mace Tyrell know about Loras?

    Wasn't it just a slap? I don't consider that abuse. Abuse is ongoing and systematic. Nothing in Oberyn's character reads as someone who wouldn't consider the consent of others. He is very respectful to his paramour and treats her well. There could be several reasons for Daemon's reticence to speak of Oberyn. Maybe he feels embarrassed to bring it up in front of Arianne since its her uncle. Or since he likes Arianne he doesn't want her to think he's in love with her uncle. Or he doesn't want to speak of the dead. Or maybe he doesn't like gossip. Or maybe its just a rumour and didn't really happen. Or it could have been just a fling unlike Oberyns's relationship with Ellaria, which was why they didn't showcase it much and why Daemon doesn't want to speak of it since he feels it's better to leave it in the past. Re: R/L, could have started after Loras was knighted. And the gap was 4 years, not so bad for those times. I agree it's better if Loras was not a squire though. Loras appeared to live in KL to me. He participated in Joffrey's Nameday before the series starts and he purchased his armour from Tobho Mott's. Loras and Renly were plotting to get Margaery married to Robert. Renly showed a portrait of Margaery to Ned. Loras must have gone to Highgarden to get the portrait and to scope out the situation with Mace. Loras and Renly wouldn't know there was going to be a Tourney so it doesn't work if Loras only came to KL for the Tourney of the Hand. It's more likely he went to Highgarden to advance their plotting and then back to KL. In any case, at no time does it actually say Loras lived at Highgarden. Please provide confirmation he lived in Highgarden if I am wrong. Loras is a third son and thus a free agent, he can do as he chooses. Plus it would make much more sense if he lived with Renly because his squiring to Renly was most probably a way for the Tyrells to get closer to the throne through the King's little brother, so his family would want him to stay close to Renly, and he could also be their ears and eyes in the capital and report back to them.
  10. Headfallsoff

    How much does Mace Tyrell know about Loras?

    Uhhh beating someone is not sexual abuse. That's very different. Oberyn is bisexual, but that he sleeps with men is spoken of only in rumours. That means he takes effort to hide it, because its not fully accepted. And why would the relationship start that young? I don't think squires stay with their master for upto ten years, and Daemon was 23. Plenty of time for them to have a non predatory relationship. Also a squire is not a slave. Also I don't remember much from the books but maybe he doesn't want to talk about Oberyn because he feels bad Oberyn died. He brings Oberyn up on his own too IIRC
  11. Headfallsoff

    How much does Mace Tyrell know about Loras?

    Oberyn DID NOT rape Daemon. Oberyn is never known as a rapist. Daemon doesn't want to talk about it because he feels its shameful. Just because Dorne is more progressive doesn't mean its fully accepted. Otherwise Oberyn would parade around his male paramours like he does his female ones.
  12. Robert would have liked him more and this Joffrey would not be so much of a Psycho. I think Robert on a subconscious level didn't care about Joffrey because he looked so much like a Lannister. And you can't blame Renly Stannis was doing fuck all on Dragonstone and being incommunicado it was upto Renly to get rid of the Lannisters. Also I wouldn't listen to Lord Varys that guy is a total weirdo and sex pervert to boot.
×