miyuki

I wouldn't be surprised, since they planned the epic Arya killing Night King in like 2015 or 2016. Can't wait for the Emmy awards. The D men are very likely gonna win the best writing and their speech is going to be hilarious.

George wanted Jeyne Poole as fake Arya to be introduced in the second episode of season 4, but the D men cut that out. The second episode of season 4 is also the last episode that was written by George. I don't think the relationship between George and the D men is as dandy as the interviews make it seem, there is no way George is happy with the direction the show went starting from season 4.

True, the Starks have a hard time keeping the Bolton flaying in check, but they fail keeping the Boltons in check - Boltons are now the wardens of the North and they are not some invaders or strangers in the North. They are a significant house of the North so their traditions are northern traditions. Which is bad...? Manderlys have shown to be actual players in the game of thrones, unlike their former liege lords Starks who failed miserably in the game. I see the Manderlys' ability to conspire a welcome addition to the political landscape of the North. (Although yes, they aren't originally from the North...) Yes, everyone does that and it is shown that even Robb pillages the Lannister lands. However, nobody in the war of the five kings does it as cruelly as Tywin and I think that is GRRM's choice to show Tywin's cruelty. I think the moral nuance is here. Robb chooses to marry a woman whose virginity he took to save her from shame knowing it will have big consequences for him regarding the war he is fighting in. It may be overly romantic or cheesy to some but there is a moral nuance in this story. This is interesting.

Is red wedding really a circumstance beyond Stark control? I see it as a direct result of choices. Btw, the only Lannister who has died before the end of ADWD epilogue is Tywin. And the Lannisters play a more ambitious and bigger game than the Starks. It's only fair that their risks are greater too. And they seem to get out of many difficult situations - they lost most of the battles against the Starks, but still defeated them. They were about to be crushed by Stannis, but a late minute alliance with the Tyrells saved the day. So now again it seems that Aegon and his Golden Company are about to threaten their position, also Tyrells seem to have a good position. Who knows what the outcome is - maybe an alliance with the Greyjoys saves them this time.

I'd say the Boltons are very much northerners and they show that northerners can be cruel and evil too. To me, Boltons remind me of the vision Bran saw in his final POV in ADWD which included a blood sacrifice. Boltons' skinning traditions are similarly old and cruel like that Stark blood sacrifice. They were originally reachmen, yes, but now they are part of the North, again diversifying northeners. Reminder that everyone is eventually from Essos or east of Essos or wherever the apes of ice and fire developed into humans. I do agree with you about the Freys, I do wish we'd have someone from house Frey we could sympathize with. Freys yearn for their version of Tyrion. Why must Robb want that? He is not Tywin lannister. Renly didn't do that either. Nor Stannis. Mountain pillaging the Riverlands was a Tywin thing. Nothing wrong with that, an epic tragedy makes a good read. "The king who won all the battles but still lost the war". ASOIAF is still literature not a chronicle of actual medieval warfare. I find Robb's story an enjoyable read. Let's not assume that Game of Thrones season 6 is canon, okay please, that would be just cruel to all readers out here... I think Jon getting stabbed has much more layers into it (like the hardships of ruling) other than just him getting a reason to leave the NW. Again, please let's not assume season 6 is 100% canon, George can do better than that.. I have no idea what future holds for Sansa, GRRM promises that she is an unreliable narrator and something controversial is gonna happen. I hope it's not how things will go. Bran's story is impossible to follow the same paths as it does in the show since the established groundwork is vastly different.

Loving this thread btw and would like to hear more opinions on this topic

The criticism of the North is in the books, but not where you look for it (Wildlings and NW). You could say honour makes the Starks unfit to rule since both Robb (his own way) and Ned died because of it. Now you may see it as an issue that even though they died they were still morally in the high ground and therefore GRRM is a hack and Starks are mary sues, but I see it differently. Robb and Ned dying because of their honour is a good slap on the face for the reader and a reminder that the world (of Ice and Fire) when you play the game of thrones, you win or you die, there is no middle ground. I don't think this is the case. NW/Others was likely written before wildlings since the magical icy threat seems to be the big bad of the series. I'd say again that dying is a pretty negative reprecussion. Seriously, did you skip the red wedding?

I can't argue here since it's a matter of choice - you'd prefer it more violently and that the NW would be shown in darker colours. I actually like it the way it is in the books, especially the case of Benjen Stark's mission beyond the wall. We read about him leaving but never returning. He is most likely dead, or worse. We see what has happened to his companions, like Othell (maybe mistyping the name here, I mean the undead Jon fights later on). So it's a case of less is more, we get a sinister sense of the horror of what might have happened to him, since we read the prologue and we as a reader know that the Others are real. Storytelling wise, it is very good, because it also leaves a very small chance that maybe he is still alive... Same with the wildlings like Osha escaping to south. We don't have a POV on the scene, only assumptions based on previous readings. So for me, like I said, the current version is very plausible. It makes it pretty clear to me that when rangers fight and kill wildlings, or when wildlings kill rangers (Lord of Bones, anyone?) it can be full of brutality and gore. Reminder that wildlings are in an even "worse" situation as in they have absolutely no organisation at all (before another king beyond the wall shows up). Also I think George wants NW to be the good guys with a twist (they are former criminals) and wildlings as a false enemy (Other are the real enemy) so the story isn't about exactly the morals of the fightings between NW and free folk, although it is interesting to discuss this and look at this story from another perspective. Russian conquest of Siberia wasn't really a medieval thing, throughout medieval times, Sibera was left wild and no slav was really interested in colonizing it. As for why kings of the North didn't try to conquer lands beyond the Wall, well, you could also ask why aren't the Lannisters and Greyjoys sailing further west and discovering the new worlds west of Westeros? The Wall, Night's Watch, old gods - northerners have well developed traditions and beliefs about them so I think it would be blasphemous or unthinkable for them to do that. Make no mistake, I don't think Victarion is a wise guy or that the ironborn are a high-cultured folk. Just reading their POV-s makes me understand that their way of life is real and true to them. When Victarion drowns men for his drowned god, I roll my eyes, but I still like him because he is true to his culture and himself and his no-brain action focused chapters are a great variety for more complex Dany and Jon chapters. Also, I don't really see how you can perceive all northeners as angelic mary sues, when Boltons and Manderlys exist. I get people who don't like the Starks because they are meant to be the good guys and liking the bad guys is always more fun, but the North has plenty of interesting players who are not so good. Robb got the red wedding - he got killed because of the choices he made. Doesn't seem like a mary sue to me. And we do get to explore the northerners war atrocities - in one of those ungodly number of Arya chapters in ACOC and ASOS. I don't see how the northreners are somehow saved from tough decisions or consequences... True, he never despised them. But his second chance did end with him getting stabbed... Here I disagree. Since it seems like what George is doing is that he made Starks the good guys in the beginning so he could go in the darkside with them later. I mean Arya is pretty dark, her POV in the Winds sample makes her quite the satan. Sansa is also going down the dark path with her weirdly sexual journey with Littlefinger. Poor Eddard who was too pure for this world, well, WAS too pure for this world and died quite horribly. Catelyn the Corpse is also quite dark. Bran's going darkside as well (Jojen paste?). So yeah, here I disagree.

Doesn't it really not happen? Men of NW are not shy about their love for killing wildlings. Just like wildlings aren't shy about their love for killing crows. Well, yes, of course. They both kill each other. It's what they do and it's why they hate each other. Except everything would be vastly different if there'd be no wall. There would likely be no free folk and the North would stretch in to the north pole. Or maybe there would be another constituent kingdom, "The Real North" or whatever Again, the Wall is not there to hold back wildlings, but the Others. The fact that over the millenia the fight against the supernatural turned into the fight against the wildlings is not a plan of the North or the Starks. It's a consequence of prior events, like building the Wall against magical stuff. We do get Greyjoy POV-s later on and for me personally, reading Victarion chapters paints me the opposite of a backwards warrior society. But I could respect your opinion on this and I could see why you'd feel like this since most POV-s are anti-Greyjoy. As for your point about Robb, he DOES pillage for supplies. In ACOK it is explicitly described in one of Catelyn's POV after Robb attacked Stafford Lannister how all the land was pillaged and burned, all the cows stolen etc. So Robb does not get +250% supply bonus from the old gods just because he is a Stark. I don't really read the story this way. Jon does have his misconceptions about the wildlings at the start of the series but after spending time with them those are changed. But Jon still recognizes the deficiencies of the free folk like the lack of order. As a reader, I followed the same path. In the first two books, I saw wildlings as just wild people, barbarians. But after spending time with them in ASOS, I began to appreciate that they are another group of people, just like the rest. The moment when they sang about the last giant was a really epic moment, I thought. I just don't see why you think this isn't enough, why Jon needs more reasons or why the Starks need blame for this story to work better. Jon got over his misconceptions and he uses his newfound enlightenment to pursue the greater good, that is uniting two people against the common enemy. His plan fails and he gets stabbed, because the rest of the NW still believes what they have believed for almost forever - the the wildlings are dangerous. It IS complicated, because you can't really blame anyone in this situation, except for The Others who were the reason the Wall, NW all these things began in the first place.

Also, reminder, that season 8 scored record number of Emmy nominations and it's likely gonna win a record number of them. Why is it that the show started winning best drama emmys from season 5 onwards, exactly the time when the only awards it should have gotten are for best CGI? The world hates ASOIAF fans in every aspect of life.

Shae betraying Tyrion in the show doesn't actually make sense. In season 3 finale when Tyrion tries to send She away by making Varys say he doesn't love him etc, Shae sees through his plans and stays because they have true and epic love. In season 4 when Tyrion does the same thing, Shae now does believe him and is hurt by this. The explanation here is obviously the D men creating more shock value for the viewers - She loved Tyrion, but now betrayed him!?! OMG 10/10 you never can guess what happens next in this show! It's one of those things that make sense creatively, so they had to do it.

I also always thought that.

Nope, racism is all about race. Don't change the meaning of words. Nope. The Mountain pillaging the Riverlands was Tywin's war strategy. When the wildlings pillage then it's because they consider all land free and themselves the free folk. They follow strength and raping and pillaging for them is just a right of the strongest. Same rules apply on how they take their women. The Wall was not built so the Starks could seize rich lands, but to defend the realms of men from whatever lies beyond it. Some people stayed on the wrong side of that wall and that is the cause of the conflict. The wildlings are not the victims of the Starks but the victims of circumstance. I think you are inserting a 21st century liberal view into a medieval fantasy story and that's not the best way to read into these things because then everyone is a sexist, racist etc etc. Really hard to agree with this, since the NW is very well regarded within all the northern noble houses, especially with the Starks. The northerners understand that the North must be protected from the north and whatever is beyond the wall. Wildlings are not the protagonists of their concern, again, they are the victims of circumstance. The wildling-Night's Watch relations are complicated and they have been killing each other for a very long time. Saying that there is a clear side whose faulty is not tangible. Mance said in ASOS, free folk and NW associate with each other more than most people know in things like trade. This more adds to the grey area to their relations.

Or Celtic Britain separated by Hadrian's Wall.

Exactly where do see the racism in this story? Both wildlings and northmen are the descendants of the first men, so they are the same race of people. Also, I think you are seeing this conflict all wrong. You see the wildlings as victims, when they clearly aren't. The North & Night's Watch vs. free folk conflict is very much an ordinary border/territory conflict that has been going on for a very long time and every new generation inherits it because it is never resolved. Both sides claim to be in the right, when in reality, both are guilty of creating the conflict. Or the conflict has been going on for so long that nobody just doesn't remember anymore who started.