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BootsWhiskersPounce

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  1. BootsWhiskersPounce

    Black Sword, White Sword, Red Sword

    I thought about your point about the specific swords and can't think of anything else about them, other than of course the fact that Longclaw is valyrian steel and looks dark grey/black, and Dawn looks white, so those match the pattern. Perhaps the Longclaw name is also a nod to the readers to direwolves, even though it wasn't named for direwolves. Of course there is also the night/day stuff with Starks and Daynes, but I'm not sure how that would tie in to the black/white/red stuff. I'm also leaning toward the view of Jon impregnating Daenerys and then dying and being "re-born" as a dragon in some way (I suspect something like your note about the funeral pyre). I originally thought it might be a new red dragon, but Drogo's colors of black with red eyes fit nicely with Ghost's colors of white with red eyes, so it also seems like a good chance that it involves a connection to Drogo, as was brought up in the thread I linked to in the original post: That would give Jon "three heads": father (human), son (dragon), and holy Ghost (direwolf). This thread talks about the idea of the three-headed dragon being Jon, which fits well with other stuff in the universe like the god Trios:
  2. BootsWhiskersPounce

    Dawn and Jon

    Yes, I do think that will happen! Pretty much just like you say. I think he will be viewed as a Dayne, wield Dawn, and then it will be revealed (at least to readers) that he is a Targaryen.
  3. BootsWhiskersPounce

    How would you have ended it?

    Thank you very much! Yes, fleshing it out a little more, my basic thinking before season 7 came out was that the show could end something like: First, word gets out that Jon is the son of Lyanna+Rhaegar. There are tensions with Daenerys because Jon might have a claim to the throne. Melisandre pushes the idea that Jon is the Prince who was Promised, and everything seems to be pointing to Jon being the heroic leader who will defeat the white walkers. Unfortunately, a few characters have selfish plans and choose to put their own pursuits ahead of what’s right, notably Littlefinger (desire), Varys (hatred), and Cersei (power). This greatly increases the chances that everybody could die from either the white walkers, or the dragons, or both. Everybody’s trust and faith is crushed. Specifically: Littlefinger’s plan involves killing Jon in a fire right before the white walkers arrive and framing Daenerys, thus putting Daenerys on Arya’s list. You note: This is a great point, thank you! The “chaos is a ladder” view would fit in with this well, but Jon as a martyr and his death as a rallying cry could ruin Littlefinger’s plan. I hadn’t considered this possibility you suggest: You’re right, Jon could be in Ghost, his story could continue, and could involve going back up to the “real North”. Then other characters (Arya, Daenerys, Sansa, Bran, Tyrion, Jaime, Qyburn, Sandor, etc.), partially inspired by Jon, end up sacrificing their own personal goals in order to save the people of Westeros. Thus, Jon did not “save the day” by wielding a sword or leading an army, in fact he unintentionally gets himself killed which some people take as a sign that he was foolish (though as you point out he might still be alive), but he ends up kind of heroic because his attempts to get people to work together inspired those around him to save the day. Going into those earlier examples a little further: I pictured a possible emotional episode-ending scene where Arya has Needle pointed at Daenerys’ throat, all of her training seemingly coming to this moment, but Sansa begs Arya to let Daenerys live to fight the white walkers (even though Sansa also hates Daenerys), so Arya decides “Not Today” and lets Daenerys live. I guess you could have the Jon-dying-before-the-white-walkers-battle idea without having the Daenerys-killing-Drogon idea, those seem kind of unrelated. I was trying to think of a sacrifice that would be very difficult for Daenerys, and thought that maybe if Drogon is the one remaining dragon and all of this violence and scheming has led him to completely turn on all the humans and stop trusting people, and he kills a bunch of people and it seems that he is a threat to kill a lot more, the climax could be a heart-wrenching scene with Daenerys comforting an injured Drogon and feeding him “medicine” that is really poison, maybe even first drinking it herself in order to get Drogon to trust her. I guess that would have to be very strong poison to kill a dragon, so maybe this wouldn’t work well, and I didn’t really think it through much. But your idea makes a lot of sense: This is interesting, Daenerys could go “crazy” as happened in the show, or I wonder if another character would make sense? I’ll think about that, thanks! Then of course the show would end with remaining characters coming to some sort of agreement over governance.
  4. BootsWhiskersPounce

    Black Sword, White Sword, Red Sword

    Thank you very much for the warm welcome, I appreciate it! Regarding the parentage: I was trying to think of what purpose of the Ashara+Ned rumors serve. The only thing I could think of was that if Jon and others came to believe that he was a Dayne, then he could become the Sword of the Morning. I don't have any evidence for this, it just literally is the only reason I can think of for why the Ashara+Ned rumor would be in the story at all. And since the previous Sword of the Morning was a white sword (and a Lord Commander), I thought it could make sense that Jon could also then be a white sword (and a Lord Commander for a second time), which led me to the "black sword, white sword, red sword" idea. So I don't know if the parentage would be significant to the plot in any way, but it seemed to me that the timing of each "stage" of Jon's story could correspond with the timing of his changing beliefs about his parentage: Jon thinks that he is a "nobody" so he becomes a "black sword"; then he thinks that he is a Dayne so he becomes a "white sword"; then it turns out that he is really a Targaryen and he becomes (or helps create) a "red sword". (For what it's worth, I do also believe the popular theory that Ashara is Jyana, living with Howland Reed. This might be another sign that I too easily believe many of the popular theories. But it seems to make sense to me!) I agree that Jon as Lord Commander of Queens/Kingsguard for the Lannisters seems unlikely, I suggested it simply to fit with the Mithraism rank of "lion", which might be a stretch. Yes, I think you are right that Jon in the Queensguard for Daenerys seems to make more sense. Yes, agreed, having Jon die and come back again doesn't seem right. I could see either: 1) a symbolic death/rebirth, like you suggest; or 2) a literal death after which he doesn't return (such as if he dies in a fire and cannot come back, though maybe he leaves behind a child or something which becomes the "red sword"). Though I like the idea about the Drogo funeral pyre that you mentioned further down. I have no thoughts about the significance of the actual sword Jon might wield. In this framework, he wields Longclaw during the "black sword" stage, and If he is Sword of the Morning for a time during a "white sword" stage, then he wield would wield Dawn. I have no idea what to make of that, that is a good point that I will think about, thanks! The only thought I had about Dawn is that it could be a red herring, that people like Melisandre might think "oh Jon Snow came back from the dead, and that is a very special sword, so that must be Lightbringer". But that doesn't really say anything about the "black sword, white sword, red sword" idea. This is an excellent point, thank you! I have long believed that Jon would "perish" twice, once in ice and once in fire, even if they weren't literal deaths. It seems to me that if Jon is a "corn king", then it could make sense if he "perished twice" so that the world doesn't have to "perish twice". Perhaps he won't truly die in a fire, but it will be something similar to what happened with Daenerys. Presumably we will be told more about why Daenerys survived that fire. And perhaps the "fires to light" "one to love" would fit into this. Thank you for bringing that up, it would make a lot of sense for something similar to happen with Jon.
  5. BootsWhiskersPounce

    How would you have ended it?

    I don't know if this is how I would have ended it or what the best ending would be, but I thought an interesting ending would have been if Jon shockingly died (in a fire, so he couldn't return, and thus "perishes twice") shortly before the battle with the white walkers. Like, 24 hours before the white walkers were set to arrive, so everybody is freaking out. Especially if Daenerys was blamed (rightly or wrongly; maybe Littlefinger would frame her) for the death. The tensions between the remaining Starks and Targaryens would then go way up, but they would also have no choice but to work together against the white walkers. (Though if Daenerys and her crew could just leave, that would kind of ruin it.) It would be a big test of whether ice and fire could put aside their enmities. Then lots of characters could make sacrifices, some of them sad: Arya might decide "Not Today" and let Daenerys live since they might need her against the white walkers, giving up her one chance at revenge; then after the battle, if Drogon is untamable and burns King's Landing some and kills civilians, Daenerys might poison him, giving up her "child"; etc. The human heart in conflict with itself, etc. Basically, Jon was a main character trying to get everybody to work together, and if he suddenly died it could have been interesting to see how those other characters would be angered and devastated and inspired, and if they would do what Jon would have wanted them to do.
  6. BootsWhiskersPounce

    Black Sword, White Sword, Red Sword

    I am new to these forums. I apologize if I am doing anything incorrectly. First, thank you to all of the people sharing theories and resources here and elsewhere which have helped me and have been fun to read and hear. I will try to keep this focused and not touch on all of the interesting theories out there, but I wanted to hear others' thoughts about some theories. I'm sure others have had similar ideas, and I hope I am not copying stuff that has been covered before. But searching around I have not found something that quite matches this topic, so I thought it would be best to start a new thread. I'm just going to focus on one idea here, which I don't recall seeing elsewhere: I think Jon Snow's story can be broken into three stages: Black Sword, White Sword, and Red Sword. I'm not sure this is a "theory" and I don't have a lot of evidence, but it seems to me to make sense. It could be a nice little pattern to Jon's story. This may or may not be an allusion to the Magnum Opus in alchemy, which sometimes was said to have four stages but sometimes was said to have three: nigredo (black), albedo (white), and rubedo (red). But basically Jon's story might go something like this: He starts out in the "Black Sword" stage and seems to be doing well as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, but then he dies. Then he comes back to life and enters the "White Sword" stage and becomes Lord Commander of the Queens/Kingsguard and seems like this heroic "chosen one" wielding Dawn, but then he dies again in a fire. But then he (or his offspring) "comes back" in some weird way as a dragon and thus enters the "Red Sword" stage and...well, I'm not really sure after that. STAGE 1 Black Sword: During this stage, a lot of people believe that Jon is the son of Ned Stark and Wylla, which I don't believe but which is a rumor in Westeros. This stage has already happened: thinking he had little claim to any other titles, Jon went and joined the Night's Watch, and eventually became Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Night's Watch members are known as "black brothers", and their vows include the line "I am the sword in the darkness". This could be viewed as Jon's first attempt to forge a way to protect the "realms of men". During this "Black Sword" stage Jon attempts to get people south of the wall to get along with people north of the wall, and for his efforts he is murdered (in ice and hatred, as in Robert Frost's poem Fire and Ice). But I think he will kind of succeed: after his death, people inspired by him will start working together more. STAGE 2 White Sword: I believe the popular theory that Jon will come back to life. I think his "White Sword" stage will then begin. During this stage, a lot of people will believe that Jon's parents are Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne, which I don't believe but which is another rumor in Westeros. I think Jon will leave the Night's Watch. He might for a time become a soldier or something similar. But more important is that, since he will be viewed as a member of the Dayne family, I think Jon will become the "Sword of the Morning". The previous "Sword of the Morning", Arthur Dayne, was also the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and I think Jon will do the same. This is the most important thing of all in this stage: I think Jon will become Lord Commander of the Queens/Kingsguard. Members of the Queens/Kingsguard are known as "white swords", and they take vows that are similar to the Night's Watch vows. This could be viewed as Jon's second attempt to forge a way to protect the "realms of men". I am not sure how Jon would come to be in the Queens/Kingsguard, but Jon is a skilled fighter, is respected by many as a leader and person, and seems likely to be even more highly regarded after coming back to life, so it seems like a position he might be offered (or be "forced" to take as part of some sort of agreement). During this stage, ever the mediator, I think Jon will again be trying to get enemies to work together, and I think that again he will be murdered (this time in fire due to others' desires to eliminate competition to the throne, again like the Robert Frost poem Fire and Ice). Thus he "perishes twice", but the world need not "perish", partially because he will once again kind of succeed: I think he will inspire people to work together more after his death. STAGE 3 Red Sword: During this stage, people in Westeros might come to believe (correctly, I think) that Jon is the child of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen. (I also believe the popular theory that Meera Reed is Jon's twin sister). (It's possible this information might come out before he is killed the second time; that could provide motive, or possibly reason to frame a motive.) This makes Jon a Targaryen and a serious contender to be the Prince who was Promised, if there is such a thing. That would mean Jon likely has something to do with Lightbringer, if there is such a thing. Lightbringer is called the "Red Sword of Heroes". This could be viewed as Jon's third attempt to forge a way to protect the "realms of men". Now, though I think he is a Targaryen, I do NOT think that Jon will be a primary dragonrider of Drogon, Viserion, or Rhaegal. I think Daenerys Targaryen will be the main rider of Drogon, Tyrion Lannister will be the main rider of Viserion, and Meera Reed will be the main rider of Rhaegal. One by one: - Daenerys-Drogon: Daenerys has already ridden Drogon. - Tyrion-Viserion: I believe the popular theory that the Mad King is Tyrion's father, so he is a Targaryen. This would make Tyrion the half-brother of Daenerys, and Viserion's namesake Viserys was Daenerys' brother. Viserion's colors (gold/cream/white) seem to match Tyrion's hair. And Tyrion is a Lannister "lion", while Viserion is said to have "a roar that would send a hundred lions running". - Meera-Rhaegal: As I mentioned previously, I believe the popular theory that Meera and Jon are twins, and their parents are Rhaegar + Lyanna (the L in Rhaegal may be a nod to Lyanna). Rhaegal's colors (green/bronze) seem to match Meera's eyes/outfits (and all of the "green" stuff associated with the Reeds). And I think the fact that Rhaenys rode the dragon Meraxes is a clear hint that Meera will ride Rhaegal. So, what about Jon? I think Jon is either going to become a dragon, will "fuse" with a dragon, or will "father" a dragon. Much of the rest of the stuff I say about this "Red Sword" stage is just stealing, butchering, and modifying ideas from other posters, such as in this thread: https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/103266-r-l-lightbringer-updated-with-part-ii/. I believe the popular theory that Lightbringer is not literally a sword, but is actually a dragon/person. It could be a three-headed red dragon like the one on the Targaryens' seal. (Thus the whole "the dragon has three heads" thing could be literal, which would be kind of ironic considering how characters don't seem to be taking it literally, while other prophecies seem to not be meant to be taken literally or might have translation errors.) Jon could get connected to the dragon in some way (likely Drogon, if that's the case, which could be the "third" attempt to forge a connection with Daenerys' three dragons), as that thread discusses. Or Jon's child could be a dragon. Or Jon himself might be the dragon, coming back to life phoenix-like, rising out of ashes. The phoenix was sometimes tied to the "rubedo" stage in alchemy. Or maybe some weird combination of things. However it works, I think Daenerys will literally be the mother of the dragon. When she tried to give birth before, the result was reptilian. The "cry of anguish and ecstasy" mentioned in the Azor Ahai prophesy could relate to Daenerys giving birth (the language is similar to that used when Melisandre gave birth to that shadow thing). And that thread I linked to has lots of interesting stuff about "Nissa Nissa" meaning "moon moon" and suggesting two "moons" from which dragons are born: Lyanna and Daenerys. If Jon indeed is "re-born" as a dragon, then he could be viewed as the "son of ice and fire" in lots of different ways: Lyanna (ice) and Daenerys (fire) as "mothers", and Rhaegar (fire) and Ned (ice) as "fathers". And if Daenerys plays a role in setting the fire that burns Jon and in riding the dragon that she births, then that might fit in some way with the "one to love" fire and mount. Although mothers of dragonriders sadly seem to die often in childbirth, and the whole "moon cracking" thing seems worrisome. I have no idea what the purpose of this dragon would be. It seems to me that the ending might be more likely to involve some sort of peace agreement or sacrifice than a fight-to-the-death type of thing, so I'm not sure what another dragon is needed for, or if it would even be good. But, the point is, I think Jon's last stage will be this "Red Sword" stage, which will involve him being very strongly tied to a dragon in some way. FINALLY Somewhat Off-Topic: I don't want to go too off topic into other theories. But while on the topic of Jon Snow, a few related things: One other thing in that thread I linked to is the idea that Jon's story follows "ranks" of Mithraism. This would fit fine with the black sword, white sword, red sword stages listed here. The fourth "rank" is "lion", which would make sense if Jon serves a Lannister as a member of the Queens/Kingsguard. And, as others have noted, there are lots of other possible connections involving common groups of three in the series (often involving ice/hatred/revenge, lions/gold/thrones/titles/princes, and fire/desire/passion). And, as others have noted, lots of other connections to Robert Frost's poem Fire and Ice besides Jon, such as characters seemingly driven by desire/passion (Daenerys, Littlefinger, etc.) and those seemingly driven by hatred/vengeance (Arya, Varys, etc.). This is getting more off topic and might not be likely to happen, so I won't get into it much more, but I have long thought it would be interesting (if maybe not all pleasant) if some of these characters had to sacrifice important things in their lives in order to save the people of Westeros: if Arya were to have the opportunity to get revenge against somebody she thinks is responsible for Jon's death but would decide "Not Today" and let her enemy live; if Daenerys were to not only give up her chance at the throne but would also decide that her dragons can't be tamed and would poison Drogon; etc. But I am getting off topic of Jon so will stop here. Thank you for taking the time to read. I'm sorry again if this has been covered before or if I'm posting it in the wrong place. I would love to hear any thoughts.
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