frenin

Counter to Margaery? Or enemy of Margaery and would no doubt try to blow the whole thing up as she did in canon? Sansa's House alo bring in two other Houses who can also project their power over all the south. I'm not following you here. What has A to do with B? On the one side you're Jaeharys was exercising his royal authority by fighting with hs troops and on the other you're arguing that fighting with your troops isn't exercising royal authority. Do you think that people who delegate aren't exercising their authority? I agree with this sentiment. But wouldn't that again put Jaeharys on the same spot? The decision to call on the Great Council was explicitly done because neither faction would accept his final decision and would resort to war. And how much the royal authority can be evaluated when you're dead. How can you exercize your authority then? Cersei ignores Tywin's designs for her once he's dead... Does that mean he had no authority? The Winter Wolves were crutial in the Riverlands theater and more importantly in taking with them most of the Green leadership and leave it. That it is explicitly because of the twincest, which is what we were talking about at the beginning. Without that, even after Robert's death there would not be the factionalism we see in the books, most of the players would be on the same side.

Never ask Theon Stark or a northmen what happened in Andalos or in the Fingers.

You don't like Theon Stark?

That's because I'm talking about his "official description." This is Martin's description of the man. And again.... I very much doubt these are the only ones but I'm too lazy to keep digging and the point comes across. We can argue about showing not telling all nigh long but Petyr is a parasite destined to thrive under ant ruler. One can easily sees him throwing shit during the late years of Jaeharys to have a war between Rhaenys and Viserys for example or him being the one that drives Maegor and Visenya to kinslaying. ... I'm sorry but you do not placate your wife by giving her childhood "friends" one of the highest positions in the entire Realm lol. Arryn certainly called upon him because Lysa's advice but he must've been convinced of his competence to give him the office and to keep him there. You don't remember Tywin confirming Petyr as Lord Paramount of the Riverlands and sending him to the Vale? Tywin trusted LF's capabilities. Eh, he found his accounting was a... rigmarole (English is not my first langauage so I'll have to trust Merriam Webster here). He certainly is, on paper, for the aforementioned reasons. Another unpopular opinion, though i touched this before, Tywin has been overrated for so long now contrarianism has decided to underrate him aggresively.

Crisis? Sure. Succesion crisis that leads to civil war? not so sure. You're not answering my point. What is the incentive to marry Joffrey to Margaery when the problem the Baratheon have is with Cersei, who will no dount have beef with the Tyrells? Yeah, that's the risk you take with these alliances. There's also a risk that the Lord of Highgarden pulls a Lysa (or Leyton Hightower). Still and in theory, Sansa came with a far better package. Aren't his friends and family his vassals? Or do you believe that when Eddard, Paxter Redwyne, Stannis or Tywin answered his call... they said they weren't asking to their liege but their brother/son in law yadda yadda I find this argument quite surprising. Jaeharys won the Fourth and Third Dornish War by relying on his father in law (Rogar), his brother (Boremund) and his sons... by that same logic does he have zero royal authority? What do you mean when you say royal authority? What's the criteria, who has it and who doesn't? Without them the Blacks cannot win. In this case, Robert is the Government. How he chooses to exercise or delegate his power is a different matter. Again, a weak King is one whose authority cannot be enforced, either because he is not respected enough or because he has no power to enforce his will. You can be as active in governing and make all decisions yadda yadda yadda but if everyone is ignoring you, you're by definition weak. And although it's not necessarily true about this case in particular, being self aware enough to acknowledge you suck at a position and delegate to more competent people doesn't make you weak in the slightest. Robert is certainly weak of character, wouldn't call him weak king. Petyr rose in prominence under Jon Arryn's tutelage and Tywin's blessing... Who were by all accounts not incompetent. People like Petyr Baelish rise to power under any type of leadership given their traits are quite literally: genius competence, usefulness beyond compare and amiable nature. Who in his right mind would get Petyrs resume and not hire him? There is no reason to believe they ever would, those tensions reach a boiling point because of the twincest. It's certainly hard to imagine something of that magnitude that would push the entire country to war. In fact the only real factor that could lead to war without the twincest is Dany, otherwise is really difficult the STAB coalition to collapse on itself. There were certainly tensions but those could have been lessened with very little effort. For example, marrying Sansa to Robert's heir would go a long way to unite the Starks and Lannisters, lessening the chance of clash, marrying Margaery to the Starks would cement the position of the rebels etc etc. But all in all, i'm not finding your arguments convincing, at all. So and since i doubt it can get funnier...

So twincest 2.0? Besides it's really hard to prove the kids are not Robert's, especially if they are not Lannister clones. He's certainly the first king to do so. Most rulers generally need a reason for that kind of preventive move. Besides the obvious fact that Joffrey was not the problem in the animosity between the Lannisters and Baratheons, it was Cersei. They were quite vital in both the Robellion and the Dance and the Starks come with the Tullys and the Arryns*,

He was desperate and she told him what he wanted to hear, that he could get the last laugh out of Renly. He had nothing to lose so fuck it.

Westeros is modeled after England however, only three kingdoms are distinct enough for secesion to be a viable option and of those three the Martells are not interested at all in separation. What separate identity has a stormlander compared to valemen? A westernmen compared to a Reachmen? The "lots of things ready to boil over" are extrictly tied to the twincest. Without it we'd have to create an entirely different conflict serious enough to cause a massive civil war. Agree to disagree. It's a bad king no doubt, not necessarily weak. A weak ruler is one who can't enforce his authority nor impose his will on his subjects, one who does not care enough to do it is certainly a bad oneb but not necessarily weak. I can only think of Aenys and Egg as the only weak kings, although tbf Egg tried to pass reforms that could only be enforced via dragons. The rest just seems a bit like rant. Why? Without the twincest... what can Cersei do to "start a succesion crisis"? What would that accomplish exactly? Besides the fact that Sansa Stark does just that but leaving that aside... What are the reasons Robert has to believe his brothers would act against his son?

Disagree, in fact I think that his invasion makes perfect sense when we realize that he had privileged information from King's Landing. The rest of the Realm didn't And he could adjust his plans accordingly. War is inevitable because of the twincest. The moment the secret was out war became a certainty, it only rest to know who would be in each faction, for example had Ned not been privy of the twincest, he may be supported Joffrey against Renly or Stannis. But a devastating civil war would always happen. Disagree and this is an argument that's made very much for every King even if that's not necessary true? Viserys I, Aegon III or Daeron II all were accused of favoring their in laws too much, Prince Viserys' in laws in Aegon's case, but that always seemed far from the truth. In court, there are few nobles from the West, most of the nobles we see in Robert's court are Stormlords, Crownlanders or Lords from the Vale. In the Small Council most of the seats are filled by Valemen or men from Stormlands, and I'm pretty sure Pycelle's true allegiance wasn't known. The power the Lannisters have are directly because of the influence Cersei has on Robert and even that has its limits. Disagree, Robert was a fairly strong King, if absent and disinterested to rule. What could he do? Force them to love each other? Certainly, still without the twincest he'd have nothing to work with. Prodigy or not. Why? Cersei's actions could lead to resentment and she on her own could do lots of things to destabilize his hubby's but on her own... How could she lead to war? Seems a good deal of exaggeration to me. Could Cersei have spoiled a true Baratheon rotten? Certainly. Would he be a psycho like Joffrey? No, not really. Besides psycho or not, Joffrey's only opposed because he's not Robert's son. Aerys lasted 20 years till he burned the wrong. I'm not following you. Disagree, most Kingdoms would rather have it all. Few tried to rule chunks of England after it was reunified. Where are you getting this from? The Baratheons are Kings because 4 realms decided to back them, add that the Lannisters being married to them and sweet Renly being cozy with the Reach Lords and that leaves that the majority of the country. I doubt that Balon would be more loyal under a Targaryen, he simply thought he could get away with it. We're very much told that Balon dreamed with returning to the Old way regardless of the hair color that sit on the pointy chair. - The Tyrells were looking to ascend in the post Rebellion position. - The Martells wanted vengeance, and Doran is too cautious to ever be an issue. - The Starks and Lannisters hate each other but that wasn't an impediment for peaceful coexistence for 15 years. Hell, for all their animosity, Tywin and Eddard both served in Pyke under Robert. What set the Lannisters and Starks is again... the twincest. - Robb declares himself King because Great job pronounces the greatest speech, Secession wasn't on his mind till then, far from that, he was worrying how could he oppose Joffrey without being labeled a traitor. That much is true, Dany is truly the wildcard in all this. Aegon is a non entity without the massive civil war going on in Westeros. Hell without Tywin dying, the Golden Company would have never attacked Westeros and JonCon admits that in normal circumstances he'd never dream to land on the Stormlands. The opening Varys has is the twincest, without that, he's pretty much hoping for the best. Well she did get Cressen killed, Stannis was very much desperate when she came to his aid. Stannis being very attracted to her also helps.

Eh, I feel like that was set up for the fallout of Tyrion's kidnapping, both he and Riverrun call their banners. And whereas he would have thrown a fit no doubt, I very much doubt he'd start a war he couldn't win unless the children's order in the succession line was altered.

Why would Tywin work towards war? At the beginning of Agot he's won in life. The others may very well be working towards war but without the twincest, there's very little that can break the rebel coalition and without that any such war becomes a moot point, Doran would quietly pull out. Once the twincest was out, as in once a single person knew, they had their war. Anyway, royalist sentiment is pretty snuffed out, you can see it here and there which but its pretty impressive how the rebels managed to sway a not very few amount of loyalists. Renly certainly played his part in getting the Reach to warm up to the new regime.

I don't want to derail this topic further, we've all speak our minds and this seems kinda pointless. Another unpopular opinion. It makes little sense how uninvolved Westeros is with the rest of the world. Robert and Jon Arryn for all their flaws managed to sniff most of the royalist sentiment in just 15 years of rule. That's certainly impressive. Had the twincest never been found out or had Cersei given Robert an heir, he would have inherited a quite stable realm and an unbeatable power block.

I didn't imply anything. I said that he was possessive. Nor do I intend to shy away from my words. Fair enough, I misremember it. He just dreams with smashing her teeth in with his golden hand. The day Ned feels like beating his wife bloody for cheating on him. I'll compare him with Jaime. Till then it's like comparing Ned and Gregor.

Yes. That's up to you. It's a trait he has however. More like he imagined himself killing Cersei for sleeping with another man. Dislike? That's a big euphemism.

True. So he did provide Cersei with the way to get rid of them but because he didn't make the initial decision... It's all good? Odd. Disagree, Cersei is too up in her own ass to have children that weren't Jaime's. Besides that Jaime was with Cersei 24/7. He'd have found out and likely kill both Cersei and the loverboy in a fit of rage.

You're seeing things that are not there, I made no judgement on whether it was good or bad, just stated things as they're. Jaime is quite possessive of Cersei and viceversa.

Again, I don't think I understand what you're talking about. Jaime and Cersei aren't partners and never were, she was engaged and married to other men for most of their lives. But even then, I don't even know why you have decided to focus on that. But it certainly seems it amuses you so I won't be the one to deny the fun so long is harmless.

I certainly believe we're talking about different things.

Weren't partners tho. Didn't get the memo didn't he? Afaik he did. With Jaime's help. Jaime himself disliked the fact that Cersei slept with Robert and wanted to prevent it at all costs, how could she get pregnant with other Jaime in such scenario? There's also the fact that Jaime deeply resented his and Robert's status. And she could have not gotten rid of the baby without Jaime. Pycelle?

Often wonder how events would have unfold had Robert not forgotten about his bastards. I can see Renly using Edric as a shield.

So did Jaime, that's my point. He's a knowing and willing participant every step of the way. He's as possessive with Cersei as Cersei is with him, he was outraged at the idea of her sleeping with someone else. How many years do you think Jaime would have suffered Robert's son, as in one who looked just like him but came out of his sister's legs, before he got Bran'd? Jaime also resented both Robert and Ned because he felt they had done worse than him and he was reviled by everyone while they received honor, glory and utmost respect. And let us not forget the one time Cersei did get pregnant with Robert... It was Jaime who get her the abortifacent. None of that has any reason to happen without the original sin. In fact the moment the secret was out, and the moment Petyr or Varys figured it out it was out, war became unavoidable. And for that, Jaime share plenty of the blame. Again, I'm not seeing the practical difference between Jorah and Shavepate

Whose cock was it? Moonboy? Plenty of those are truly unpopular and i couldn't disagree more, take my like.

So are Jorah's tbf. There's this meme i saw a while ago that sums Jorah and Dany perfectly And honestly, if Jorah was in Mereen he'd tell her the same thing most of her advisors have been telling them to do, strike and strike hard against the masters... she didn't want to listen to that counsel, doubt she'd listen to Jorah.

I do not remember a single Dany advisor who uncritically agrees with her, Barristan disagrees a lot, so does Daario, Shavepate etc.

Kinda like Martin does? We have that throawau line from Rhaenyra talking about how Joffrey did not know enough about the bonds of the dragons and then nothing.