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Elegant Woes

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Everything posted by Elegant Woes

  1. It's Sansa Stark for me. I love it how songs are such a huge theme in her narrative and the way Sansa is forced to differentiate the truth from the lies is, in my opinion, the most compelling storyline. It's quite obvious that the truth she will learn near the end of ASOIAF will be one of the biggest messages that GRRM is trying to convey with his series. Her character is by far the most beautiful and compelling to me and in my opinion the rest of the cast can't compare to Sansa Stark.
  2. So many people in here seem to believe that Sansa will betray her family at some point. It makes me wonder, is it something that you have evidence for or is this what you guys just want to happen?
  3. It's Sansa. She is the only one who makes the prophecy about being a queen and ruling. Also Sansa took several things away from Cersei - her child, Jaime and her power, and she did this by being kind and merciful - qualities that Cersei abhors. There's something cathartic about Cersei being brought down by traits she looks down upon.
  4. Yes she is capable of playing the meek submissive simpleton. That doesn't mean she's genuinely like that. While Sansa is overall a kind, polite, and gentle girl who is not quick to get angry, she still has a temper, and that temper resurfaces a couple of times throughout the series (i.e when Arya throws a blood orange in her face and ruins her betrothal gift, when Joffrey taunts her about how he will kill Robb, when little Robert destroys her snow replica of Winterfell). Sansa not kneeling is just another example of that she has a threshold. Sansa not kneeling is not a sign she's mean. It just mean she's human. By denying her of this you are saying you have an issue with Sansa being a multifaceted character.
  5. So what if Sansa was a mean girl to Tyrion? Don't you think her response was valid? If not then, pray tell, what is the appropriate way to respond to a man twice your age who is forcibly marrying you? To be clear I am not attacking you. I am just curious about what you think is the right course of action that Sansa should take.
  6. I think when we talk about the not kneeling part we do not take the situation in consideration. This is what happened before the changing of the cloaks began: Everyone at the wedding chose to ignore the fact that Sansa was pitifully crying - including Tyrion. He alongside everyone else never took her feelings into consideration. This is why she thinks this a couple lines later: Sansa makes a valid point here. Why on earth should she care about Tyrion's feelings when he cannot extent the same courtesy to her. He didn't care about how she stood there crying therefore she's not obligated to care about his humiliation. It's all about reciprocity. Giving back what was given to you. Tyrion chose to be insensitive to her so Sansa was insensitive back. If anyone thinks that Sansa didn't have to fight fire with fire then I have to ask you. Why are we expecting a twelve year old child to be the bigger person to twenty-six year old man who is forcibly marrying her? Is her anger not valid? Doesn't she also have her dignity?
  7. I am 100% sure that Aegon will marry Arianne. The biggest problem Aegon will face is people, particularly his enemies, questioning his identity as the real Aegon Targaryen and therefore his right to rule Westeros. The best way to combat that is to gain the approval and the backing of the Martell family.
  8. He will live and stay the Lord of the Vale for a very long time. Harry is the more likely person to die.
  9. I don't see why Dany is the highest contender to be Jon's lover, because ADWD highlights how incompatible these two would be. Also incest is incest. You can't make exception just because Dany and Jon are tropey enough to end up together in the typical fantasy novel. If anything that is a slight against them. GRRM isn't writing your typical story. He likes to give a twist to cliché story lines and archetypes. Dany and Jon are more likely to be enemies who hate each other's guts than lovers and allies. ADWD proves just that.
  10. I never implied that them looking like each other was the only reason why their dynamic is so inherently twisted. Just that it plays a decent part of it. I would like to appreciate it if you didn't straw man me. Secondly the reason why Jon and Arya won't happen is because the age gap is way too wide between them. Arya will be, at most, 13-14 years old near the end of ADOS whereas Jon will be 18/19. At least with Jon and Sansa the age difference is only 2.5/3 years.
  11. No I don't see Jon and Arya ending up together. GRRM wouldn't slowly draw out a giant theme of how narcissistic and toxic the relationships between the Lannisters twins or the same looking Targaryens are only to make Jon and Arya end up together. That's just hypocritical on his part. If, and that is a big if, GRRM is going for a half-siblings/cousin romance then he has to go for one that is a foil to Jaime/Cersei and the Targaryens, not a parallel. They have to look so different from each other that no one would believe they are related and weren't close to each other growing up. If the Stark cousin romance is still on deal, and that is a huge IF because we can't know what's GRRM intention, then it can only be Jon and Sansa.
  12. @winter daughter I was specifically talking about Sansa's possible attraction towards Jon not the other way around. However now that you bring that up I would like to remind you that what attracted Jon to Val and Ygritte in the first place is their softer traits (Ygritte singing and romanticizing songs while being moved to tears by them, Val's maternal side). These are traits that Sansa also exhibits. Secondly when Jon thinks of them in romantic lens he also tries to change them into something that they aren't. Thirdly there is nothing suggest he can't fall for a more traditionally feminine woman. In fact I would argue that the warrior princess sounds like an ironic hint he might fall exactly for a woman like that. Sure Sansa's taste in men can change, however I would like to see evidence of that before I can agree that it has changed. Sansa's crush on Waymar Royce is significant because of how she describes her feelings for him. She wildly fell in love with him. GRRM never described her romantic feelings towards Joffrey and Loras this way. You seem to forget that Waymar Royce himself looks a lot like Ned and Jon. He has the Stark look: long face, dark brown hair and grey eyes. In fact the description that was used for Waymar is also used for Jon. Not only that Jon already has a special connection with Waymar on a narrative level. The mini arc of Waymar in the Prologue foreshadows a lot of things about Jon. Waymar starts off arrogant and thinks he is better than anyone else but learns to accept he's a man of the night's watch (Jon's AGOT arc), confrontation with the Others (Jon from AGOT and onward), dying and rising from the death (Jon's TWOW arc). Perhaps to you it might not be meaningful, but the fact that GRRM chose to make Sansa have romantic feelings for this character is very significant to me.
  13. Except there is enough evidence to support Sansa could fall in love with Jon. Sansa taste in men is very specific. She is into heroic, gallant and courteous men. Jon is the one person who comes close to the heroes from the songs she loves so much while stil being a complex and gray character. He doesn't interact with women much but when he does he is courteous and gallant with them (the Gilly incident doesn't count). Secondly Sansa's wild crush on Waymar Royce shows she is very much into the Stark look. All of this shows to me that Sansa could very well be attracted to Jon once they meet. @Alyn Oakenfist Jon doesn't want to be King in the North. He wants to be a Stark and Lord of Winterfell. To have a lady wife and legitimate children. He wants to belong and be validated. His dreams are very specific. In fact it's so specific it would be a cop out if he doesn't end up getting what he wants in the end. And this is why I am in favor of Sansa and Jon ending up together. They validate each other's very specific dreams. In terms of symbolism (association with the Bael the Bard tale, key to the North, rebuilding Winterfell, Lady being buried in Winterfell) Sansa is the most likely Stark to be the ruler of Winterfell. And if she is and marries Jon in the end she gives exactly what he wanted from day one. And Jon in return gives what she wanted from day one. In my opinion this is a logical conclusion to their respective arc.
  14. @Nagini's Neville I am by no means condemning little Robert. He definitely meant no harm. It's just Sansa response to it came across as her getting triggered for me. As for Sandor's ending? Who knows. There are so many possibilities. The line: Could perhaps be a hint towards a possible death for him. Maybe he will lay down his life for Sansa in order to atone for his behavior. I know that some people hate the idea of that, but like you said, who knows whether George thinks he is worthy of redemption. ETA: And no, Sansa is most definitely was traumatized by Sandor's assault. The description of Sansa feeling cold is very similar to an occurrence related to trauma. If the Blackwater event didn't traumatize her Sansa wouldn't have rewritten that memory in the first place. By that logic she shouldn't have technically been traumatized by the Trident Incident either and we all know she was.
  15. @Nagini's Neville Maybe you do have a point but still I don't see it happening. For all it's so called romantic implications there is a lot of negativity surrounding the dynamic of Sansa and Sandor. His verbal abuse, the sexual harassment in her fourth chapter in ACOK, and most importantly the black water incident. Sansa is clearly traumatized by it and even though she doesn't tackle it full on she associates it with her wedding night during a nightmare (yet another traumatizing experience for her). Even in AFFC when she thinks about the Unkiss it only happens after Sweetrobin kisses Sansa without her consent. Plus we shouldn't forget that Sansa has also not addressed Sandor's involvement in the Trident incident (another memory Sansa has been suppressing). By no means am I discrediting the possibility of this, because at some point I did believe Sansan would happen, but something feels off about all of this. I mean there must be a reason why George spoke somewhat negative about this dynamic. Perhaps he never considered a romance between these two.
  16. @Nagini's Neville Sandor Clegane doesn't fit the brave, gentle, strong criteria, because you are missing a big point of the quote. Ned specifically says: A high lord who is worthy of you, someone brave, gentle and strong. Sandor Clegane isn't a high lord. Even if he became the Lord of house Clegane he would be a minor one. Whoever Sansa will marry will most likely be part of the major houses.
  17. In theory Sansa and Pod could be cute. From what little interaction they had with each other, I got the impression he had a little crush on her.
  18. A small note. I was rereading Sansa's third AGOT chapter today when I searched for the Targaryen imagery and I noticed a certain aspect of the gentle, brave, strong quote that is often ignored: Ned doesn't just say he will match Sansa off to someone who is brave and gentle and strong. He explicitly says a high lord. That significantly narrows down the list of suitors for Sansa. There are very few character who fit this criteria. Jon however fits this perfectly. If R + L = J is true then he would be a high lord worthy to be Sansa's match.
  19. The reason why I think the Targaryen imagery is significant in Sansa's chapters is because how it's presented. The first imagery begins in her third AGOT chapter and Arya throws a grapefruit at her and soils an ivory dress that was a betrothal gif of Cersei. The second imagery is in her fourth ACOK chapter when Sansa has her first flowering, where blood seeps into the white blanket. The third and last imagery involves in a white cloak with fire and blood that she decides to wear (this one is significant because a maiden accepting a cloak from a man is part of the wedding ceremony in Westeros). What all three of these situations have in common is that the Targaryen imagery always happens on a white/ivory/Snow-like fabric and all these situations involve something that is associated with betrothal, seal of womanhood and marriage. Looking at the pattern it's not hard to assume that Sansa might get romantically involved with a Targaryen. And like I said in my previous post, the most likely person to be that Targaryen suitor is Jon.
  20. Not thinking of someone that often is not an indictment of a lack of caring. Ned rarely thinks of Catelyn in AGOT. Does that mean he doesn't care about her? With that said I do think there's certain thoughtlessness on both Jon and Sansa's part when it comes to each other and thoughtlessness makes them the most likely to meet each other. The first Stark reunion will be them of that I am sure.
  21. And yet somehow you believe that Jon/Arya is more likely of the two. Surely there has to be reason why you believe that.
  22. It's not a rule per se but more an assumption on my part. Almost every betrothal in the list both Sansa and the other party are aware of the possible union. Yes so far we don't know if Willas was aware of the possible betrothal between him and Sansa, I guess we have to wait till TWOW where we finally meet him. This theory, however, does not completely hinge on that. I did say that the Targaryen imagery in Sansa's chapters also play a factor in it.
  23. @Nagini's Neville Her brief betrothal to little Robert is not included because in order for it to be considered both parties have to be aware of it and Sweetrobin never learns of it. Besides I do think there's validity to Ashford Theory, because there's strong Targaryen imagery in Sansa's chapters. Some people on this board forum speculated she might marry Aegon, but since Sansa is going North the chances she will meet him before he dies (poor kid) very slim. If Sansa married Jon than the theory could be proven right. A small note Valarr Targaryen (suitor in the tourney) had mostly brown hair. A possible hint? Who knows.
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