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Lord Invictus

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  1. Lord Invictus

    House Lannister is doomed.

    I’m not sure if Tyrion swore off sex entirely or more likely just whores. Then again part of his “penance” may mean giving up a claim to the rock and the west as well as marriage. As for fate of the above-the show doesn’t really say and honestly never got across that the westerlands were a kingdom of their own. Which leads me to wonder how that will go in the books-Tyrion’s fate may or may not be the same or different, and there are a lot more Lannister’s in the books than the show. So who gets the rock and the west? Personally I think the options are-Tyrion, Sansa(an ironic reversal of Tywin’s ambition a Stark at the rock rather than a lannister at winterfell), possibly Joy Hill, maybe a Westerling(maybe if Jeyne has a child?) But that’s book speculation. As for the show, and not deigning to speculate/add characters I’d say Tyrion has claim to the rock, as the show doesn’t say he had to give it up. And there aren’t any other options and of course no one mentioned. Reginald struck me as the show’s representation of Lannister cousins/Lannisport Lannisters. And since he had a wife he presumably had children. So house Lannister will endure, even if Tyrion sires no heirs. And there are presumably enough vassals with Lannister blood who could take the name.
  2. Lord Invictus

    [TV Show Spoilers] A theory about the ending.

    Oh sure, I didn't deny any of that. Except the usurper charge-does anyone fairly expect Tyrion to betray his family for Stannis? That's a rather unfair thing to judge him for. Given his fate was tied to the Lannisters winning, and I doubt the Baratheon brothers or Robb would have looked kindly on him if he had sold out his family. Fight for Joffrey-live, betray him for Stannis die. That seems fairly cut and dry to me. Also he fought for his family and blood-which is the expected choice in Westeros. Of course one could argue he should have done that anyway consequences to his own life be ignored, but that is a sort of moral absolutism I don't really hold(nor do most people IU or RL for that matter). Tyrion is probably the quintessential Martinian "human heart in conflict with itself". And unlike Ramsay, Euron, or Gregor-born sociopaths we know and sympathize with why Tyrion is the way he is. Tyrion wasn't born a monster, he became one due to the way he was raised and the way his family failed him. I would say his grudges against his sister and Lysa Arryn are legitimate in their nature. Even if he acts or wishes to act on them in utterly vile ways. Tyrion on the other hand can be compassionate, heroic, and willing to dispense accurate if unpleasant advice. A true monster would not have rushed to save Catelyn Stark or taken the time to make Bran a saddle, or told Jon the unpleasant truth about the NW. But I believe we are getting off topic here.
  3. Lord Invictus

    [TV Show Spoilers] A theory about the ending.

    They definitely don’t “need” to die. The plot mandates they do. You seem to be implying there is some moral imperative that they die, and that to me is morally beyond the pale. They don’t “have” to be punished. As for Tyrion- a few points -he has every reason to despise Catelyn Stark, the woman kidnapped him for a crime he didn’t commit, and he saved the woman’s life, and didn’t get an ounce of gratitude in return. Not to mention, he tried to be reasonable and explain how it couldn’t have been him, but Catelyn once she makes a decision ignores all evidence to the contrary of her certain righteousness. He nearly was killed for what happened. -he did give Bran a saddle, something I expect will matter when he and Bran meet again. Probably not “hey thanks you gave this specialized saddle” but more that Tyrion’s kindness will factor into Bran’s decision as to his fate. -Killing Tyrion would have been so very easy, think of all the emoting they could have gotten out of Peter Dinklage to shill for Emmys! Also Tyrion is one of the top four characters in the story, and I am fairly convinced the show got the primary endings right. That is the (general) state of Westeros and the endings of the top four or five characters. Of which Tyrion definitely is one. Daenerys is going fire and blood just find on her own. She already has Quaithe telling her to “remember who you are”, “dragons plant no trees” and all that fun jazz. When her downfall does come, it will be her own fault, her own choices. Not the devil imp making her do bad things. That’s a disservice to Daenerys’ story as much it as it is to Tyrion’s. -For Tyrion’s fate, I’m about 60% confident the show got it right, 30% he may go to the wall, 10% he may die. -as for his crimes, I don’t think anyone denies Tywin got his just desserts, out of universe anyway, if there ever was a justified kinslayer it’s Tyrion, also he confessed to killing Joffrey because Jaimie had just reopened his trauma wound and poured salt on it. Of course he would admit to something false just out of spite. Also Tywin was going to have Tyrion executed, for a crime he didn’t commit. In narrative/character terms, I say the show got it 60-70% accurate. The secondary characters, the fate of north, the fate of Essos, and the like will probably be different. Though how much is impossible to say. As for punishment and death-I have to quote Gandalf “do not be so quick to deal out death and judgement Frodo, there are some who live who deserve death, and some who die who deserve life”, is all I am going to say about characters arbitrarily “deserving” to die or live based on what we readers feel or prefer. Personally I don’t mind the show ending, the execution was generally terrible, and the writing was of course well the writing of this season. But if GRRM told me, in a secret email afterwards, “this is more or less how Dream ends” I would be content with that, because I don’t really have a problem with the actual substance of the ending.
  4. Lord Invictus

    [TV Show Spoilers] A theory about the ending.

    Its important though to remember the early chapters of AGOT still followed the original outline or at least there are portions or remnants of it-Jaimie is foreshadowed as being King as well, Jon and Arya are close in a way that corresponds to the original outline, Joffrey can fight to some extent and its foreshadowed he will face Robb etc... Tyrion also burned down Winterfell in the original 1993 outline. So I take a lot of this material, as artifacts from Martin's earlier plans and conceptions not necessarily being insightful into the future. In general though I sort of recoil at the desire for "killing all the Lannisters" in some sections of the ASOIAF fandom, I find it morally condemnable at best and abominable at worst-when people are saying all the Lannisters should be killed. Including infants, small children, teenagers and third cousins.
  5. Lord Invictus

    Events you are most looking forward to see in TWOW

    I seem to recall, the man was blackmailing him and Tyrion had asked him before to go away, and even offered to bribe him IIRC. Maybe having Bronn push him down the stairs would have been less over the top, but there was very little else Tyrion could do that didn't result in his "romance" becoming public knowledge. Same with Jaimie pushing Bran. Martin also said Winds would be out in 2015 :). Tyrion's "villainy" such as it is, is more to do with the faction(s) he is associated with-the demon monkey behind Joffrey, or the villainous kingslaying kinslaying dwarf who is coming with the barbarian dragon queen. It's also about perspectives from just about every anti Lannister faction pre ASOS Tyrion is a villain and when he returns with Daenerys he will be seen as a villain by Aegon's regime, Cersei(if she is still alive), and anyone else opposing the dragon queen. He will probably betray Daenerys as he did in the show-making him a villain from her perspective as well(probably for blood-to save what remains of his family or possibly in concert with the Starks as we sort of saw in the show to install Jon perhaps?). Like Tyrion isn't planning on killing everyone in the line of succession and becoming King no matter what Cersei thinks-if he was then yes he would be the main villain. He isn't conspiring with the Others, to destroy humanity. What Tyrion wants are really two simple things-vengeance against his sister and his inheritance. The former is bad, but understandable given you know how Cersei has treated him, and the latter is his right. Also all the above are going to be in Dream-where Tyrion is at the end of Winds at an emotional and psychological level is most definitely not where he will be at the beginning. I would also counter by saying an evil man would not save the woman who wrongfully kidnapped him, he wanted to let her die-but his conscience overcame that instinct, an evil man would not give a saddle to a boy whom he suspects his siblings tried to murder. Neither act being things he got any benefit or gain out of-Cat didn't change her evaluation of his character, and Robb was well rather rude in spite of his compassion and generosity. At most Tyrion is a morally grey(darker shade that is) anti hero. But I suppose, we shall have to agree to disagree on this one. I do believe Tyrion will be "redeemed" at some point, and his fate won't be rewards of roses and gold. He very well may die soon after the series ends like Tyland Lannister another disfigured unpopular Lannister of the Dance.
  6. Lord Invictus

    [TV Show Spoilers] A theory about the ending.

    I mean, are Janei or Joy Hill, or Tyrek or a Lannister of Lannisport guilty for Tywin’s crimes? Olyvar Frey isn’t guilty for Walder’s crimes. Even if you condemn Tywin and all his children, then I don’t see how any moral person could condemn Janei or Tyrek or Dorna, Daven, Cerenna or Myrielle, or heck Margot Lannister In the reach. From what we know, the vast majority of the Lannister clan are normal decent people. The books(and show) focus on the least savory ones. As for Tyrion, chalk that up to another time of the show “forgetting”, having him give up the title as part of his “punishment” would have made an interesting touch. I’m not sure the show actually acknowledged the Westerlands as an entity ever-the crag, CR, and Lannisport are all mentioned but the westerlands aren’t ever directly referred to as a distinct geographical and political region. Regarding Tyrion as hand-/rebuilding as penance here is a passage from ASOS No, but others come in their places. Leave them be . . . but if they start throwing up hovels against the wall again, pull them down at once. The war's not done yet, no matter what these fools may think." He spied the Mud Gate up ahead. "I have seen enough for now. We'll return on the morrow with the guild masters to go over their plans." He sighed. Well, I burned most of this, I suppose it's only just that I rebuild it. Tyrion IV ASOS (Bolded this part for emphasis).
  7. Lord Invictus

    Tolkien 3.0

    I am very concerned the Amazon show will muck up the Second Age, in fact I am near certain of it.
  8. Lord Invictus

    WoIaF versus the Silmarillion

    They are very different. AWOIAF expands on the world of ASOIAF, The silmarillion is essentially the tale of how Middle Earth came to be, its the equivalent of Genesis.
  9. Lord Invictus

    Events you are most looking forward to see in TWOW

    Somehow I knew this quote was going to be brought up, I’m a prophet Martin says a lot of things, and how much weight one puts on them is a different matter. He also said Ramsay had a “difficult childhood” among other half sardonic remarks. Tyrion is a villain from Stannis and the Starks POV and Cersei for that matter. If Martin had said, “he’s the villain of course, from the perspective of Robb Stark” then people would not put as much weight on this statement. Which may have been along the lines of what he meant. And that is what I suspect he meant. You could make a better argument Jaimie is the main villain given his attempted murder started the whole plot. ASOIAF doesn’t really have a main villain as it is, except the Others and perhaps Euron. All other villains are contextual to certain character arcs and plots. If Martin had something like “Tyrion is the arch villain of the series” or “Tyrion is gonna be the final boss” or something that would be far better evidence. Rather than “yeah I like him and you know he’s a villain” with further clarification left unsaid. Which leaves people to argue over what that could mean or perhaps he said it just because people would argue and speculate. Tyrion isn’t a villain from the POV of the mountain clans, House Lannister(well before killing Tywin and arguably still not as he is Tywin’s heir and about the only one who might fulfill Tywin’s shoes when the dust settles), or to Brown Ben Plumm. Martin’s words and every interview where he goes off saying something witty shouldn’t be taken as ex cathedra declarations on the true nature of the story. Else contradictions start to appear. Tyrion is very much portrayed as a heroic figure in Clash(well one with his hang ups but Halfman! isn’t the refrain of a villain), he defended the city albeit from the rightful king but not just for himself but for his niece and nephew and is in no way conceivably villainous in AGOT. He becomes an anti hero as that goes in ASOS, and a darker anti hero/sliding villain in ADWD, that is during the absolute nadir of his life. How Winds and Dream go remain to be seen, he won’t even meet Daenerys until the end of Winds. So he could conceivably be in a different emotional and mental place perhaps better perhaps worse. But I imagine he will at least have escaped his self destructive nihilistic spiral by then. It profits to be remembered Tyrion made a saddle to Bran, and saved Catelyn Stark. If Tyrion were as truly as malevolent as certain characters(and fans) say, then I fail to see why he would have done either of these things. Tyrion defended Sansa from Joff’s beatings, among other things. As Stannis said, the bad does not wash out the good nor the good the bad. Sometimes I think the ASOIAF fandom overemphasizes Tyrion’s admittedly dark deeds in ADWD, and single off hand quotes from GRRM. I do genuinely believe Tyrion is at heart a good person, who wants to do right, but is surrounded by truly malicious and evil people and must act within the environment he is in.
  10. Lord Invictus

    Events you are most looking forward to see in TWOW

    I get the impression you seem set on Tyrion as some sort of arch antagonist. Which he is definitely not. Tyrion won’t be the only one competing for Dany’s ear, and I doubt he will always get his way. And that gets to the issue of what is Tyrion going to do when he returns with Daenerys and her coterie, dragons and armies? Presumably take Casterly Rock via the sewers. And maybe serve as a strategist for Dany’s war against Aegon and or Euron. And possibly participate in the war for the dawn in some capacity. In terms of vengeance-Tyrion wants to go after his family-who are already collapsing, and the Lannisters who remain will likely have bent the knee to Aegon by the time Tyrion arrives, or we will have the Cersei/Euron alliance or some combination thereof. Also the Vale-I imagine there will be a reckoning there with the mountain clans and settling accounts with LF and Sansa however those may go. Beyond that? Participate in the war against the others(and unlike the show probably fight in some capacity). Probably have reunions with the three Starks whom he had some interaction with-Sansa, Jon, and Bran(as in the show). Beyond that, it’s hard to say. He may go to the wall, be executed, or serve Bran in some capacity. I don’t believe he will die though and think the show outcome is his book outcome(though I know you disagree). But that is my general prediction for what Tyrion will be up to in Dream.
  11. Lord Invictus

    Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

    Ehrm, a lot of the things in that interview were taken out of context, and were used by someone with an axe to grind. Also the impression I got didn’t change the notion the ending will be generally the same. D&D were never asked nor did they say-“there are or will be substantial differences” when such clarification could have easily been made. As it is, I am generally content with the show ending. At least it’s main aspects with regards to characters. I question how much of the notion the books will be vastly different comes down to wish fulfillment or a strong dislike of the show.
  12. Lord Invictus

    Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

    Aegon will likely sit the Iron Throne when she arrives. With Euron holding the iron islands, (possibly) the westerlands, and maybe part of the reach. Politically speaking Euron is just another rival for the Iron Throne. And personally I don’t see Daenerys and Euron coming into direct military or political contact until sometime in Dream.
  13. Lord Invictus

    Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

    Of course he does. My point is that his schemes and ambitions as they stand now won't succeed, at least in their entirety and definitely not at the beginning of the book. I expect Euron will only achieve partial success at Oldtown, possibly destroying the Redwyne Fleet and maybe sacking the city but the plan to gain control of a dragon will fail, perhaps because Victarion will forge his own path or something or someone else will cause his (immediate) plans to go haywire. Cersei will likely be a step down but Euron will likely ally with her out of opportunism and shared enemies. His plan of ascension will fail, both in the long run and because of immediate opposition. I certainly don't see Daenerys marrying him, and she isn't even getting to Westeros until Dream(at the same time I don't see the Cersei/Euron alliance happening until Dream either). Euron may have divine ambitions but at the moment he is just another warlord vying for control of Westeros. If Cersei makes it to the west, she will need allies against Aegon, any westermen that join him(Tyrek backers perhaps?), and perhaps Tyrion and or Daenerys when they show up. For Euron to sit on the IT, he needs to defeat the current occupant or seize the throne when it is unoccupied. In the South, in Dream I can see a Cersei/Euron vs Aegon vs Daenerys vs whatever Stark loyalists remain and their sundry allies. But that's just my general take. We shall see.
  14. Lord Invictus

    Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

    Personally I think Euron's plan to marry Daenerys will fail. Plans usually don't go off without a hitch in ASOIAF. I don't see Daenerys agreeing to marry Euron especially if he does somehow snatch a dragon, that kind of makes him her enemy, and a dangerous enemy at that. But I personally don't believe he will get a dragon. Also as an aside, I think sometimes people overhype The Forsaken. It builds up Euron as this unstoppable eldritch dark lord, maybe he is, or is becoming, but to think Euron will have everything go right for him is silly, at least in my opinion. Also since we can mention the show here, if Euron is to marry Daenerys, then the show would have reflected that. The "Euron marries Daenerys" fan theory, if true would have required Euron be introduced at least in season 5 or four. It doesn't work with what we know.
  15. This did bring up a question, if bells don’t mean surrender what does? I suppose, depending on the context bells could and could not mean surrender. As far as I know, there is no white flag in Westeros, dipped banners? Also Cersei didn’t give the stand down order, the Lannister garrison and population yielded of their own initiative.