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Everything posted by lehutin

  1. Your mistake is thinking that R+L=J requires or implies that Jon be a "prince riding a half unicorn, half ice dragon lion." It does not, figuratively or literally.
  2. Is there anything in the novels that indicates Arthur Dayne and Lyanna Stark had any attraction to each other? Is there any narrative value to Arthur Dayne fathering Jon Snow with Lyanna Stark? Do we really want ASOIAF to be the equivalent of a low-budget afternoon soap opera? "'Ned, I have a confession to make: the father of my son is...' TUNE IN TOMORROW FOR THE SHOCKING NEW EPISODE OF WINDS OF OUR WINTERS!"
  3. The "broken promises" in Eddard XV may be mundane and have nothing to do with Jon. They could simply be referring to a broken promise from Littlefinger: or promises Ned made to Barra's mother and now couldn't keep:
  4. No, that wasn't my argument (that I already said I would agree to disagree with you, but whatever). My argument was that if you wanted to claim that the loyalist Kingsguard had absconded with Lyanna's newborn child and were about to sacrifice the child and "speed was of the essence," then Ned "For a start, I do not kill children" Stark wouldn't be wasting any time with roundabout speeches. Remember, you claimed that Ned being in a rush was why he didn't speak to his sister at Starfall first. If he's in that much of a hurry, why is he beating around the bush? But if there is no knowledge on Ned's part about an imminent child sacrifice, then while Ned may still be anxious to rescue his sister, he's not so anxious that he can't even speak to a family member he's spent around a year looking for. He can try to more calmly negotiate for this family member's release. Like I said, if you don't see a distinction, fine. Agree to disagree. But that also means I don't agree with your claim that Ned would be equally straight-to-the-point under the "Lyanna is here, and that's all Ned knows" scenario. If you think there's no subtext, or no need for one, and it's as simple as "Ned was looking for them," then why was Ned's final statement, "I thought you might have sailed with [Darry]"? Ned has been looking for these guys all this time, and now that he finds them, he wants to know why they're not somewhere else? I concur with that subtext in the context of Ned's final statement about Dragonstone. If they know that Rhaegar, Aerys II, and presumably also Aegon are all dead, then doesn't their Kingsguard duty demand that they be with Viserys? Despite that, they all adamantly insist that staying there is what their Kingsguard duty demands. It is still a puzzle as to why they stood there. Your Jon-was-to-be-sacrificed explanation implies that Gerold Hightower, Oswell Whent, and Arthur Dayne weren't the Kingsguard. They were the Prince'sfanboysclubguard. Instead of going to defend King Viserys III Targaryen, they decided to obey Prince Rhaegar's final, insane order to sacrifice a child. If so, it really strains credulity that Ned "For a start, I do not kill children" would hold these three in the level of regard that he does. But I suppose we'll (hopefully) find out in TWOW.
  5. Agree to disagree then. He never explicitly asks them to surrender. But what was the point of stating that he has been looking for them? If they were at the Trident, they would've either died, surrendered, or (as their bravado claims) turned the tide and won the battle. If they were at King's Landing, they would've either died, surrendered, or (as their bravado claims) still be serving King Aerys II. If they were at Storm's End, they would've either surrendered or (as their bravado claims) still be serving the Kings of House Targaryen. And if they weren't going to surrender, so be it, but shouldn't they "have sailed with" Ser Willem Darry to Dragonstone? This last part stands out because at that point, Ned is no longer on-the-surface saying that he has just been "looking for them."
  6. Not really. If Ned is coming to rescue Lyanna and has no idea that she's given birth to a child OR that there's some imminent plot to sacrifice her child, then while he's obviously anxious to rescue his sister, it makes sense for him to try to handle the situation as calmly as possible: Rhaegar is dead. Surrender to me peacefully. Aerys II is dead. Surrender to me peacefully. The Houses Tyrell and Redwyne have abandoned you. Surrender to me peacefully. If you won't surrender to me, then shouldn't you be with Viserys right now? But if Ned is aware that the newborn child of his beloved sister is about to be sacrificed, why would he not just get straight to the point?
  7. If this is the case, it seems strange that in Ned's fever (but also old) dream, he spoke in such a roundabout way: "I looked for you on the Trident." "When King’s Landing fell,..." "I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,..." "Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone,..." instead of just getting straight to the point:
  8. Why did the loyalist Kingsguard separate Jon from his mother? Upon learning that Lyanna was at Starfall, why would Ned proceed directly to the Tower of Joy instead of first speaking with his sister, whom he's spent close to a year looking for? Did Lyanna give birth to Jon and die at Starfall? Maybe, but it just seems like an unnecessary complication. Either there's double travel, or Ned bizarrely doesn't speak to his sister before recovering her child.
  9. I don't get this Lyanna-was-at-Starfall thing. From what I got out of page 23, Lyanna gave birth to Jon at Starfall, the loyalist Kingsguard took Jon to the Tower of Joy, Ned met and consoled a dying Lyanna at Starfall, Ned traveled to the Tower of Joy with his companions and killed the loyalist Kingsguard, Ned went back to Starfall to return Dawn. If so, it seems like an unnecessary complication to this: Lyanna gave birth to Jon at the Tower of Joy, Ned traveled to the Tower of Joy with his companions and killed the loyalist Kingsguard, Ned met and consoled a dying Lyanna, Ned went to Starfall to return Dawn. There's an extra step and a double travel that has no purpose. Do some people just want the Daynes to be more involved in the story?
  10. Sorry, I don't understand your thought process here. What does your question have to do with Ned not listing Jon together with "Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon" when Cersei asks Ned, "you love your children, do you not?" In any case, Jaime attempted to murder Bran to prevent the possibility that Bran would reveal the Jaime/Cersei incest.
  11. I don't think its "certain" that more careful readers will (independently) come to the R+L=J conclusion. If you don't ever check any fan community (online or offline), then independently reaching the conclusion is not trivial. You first need to recognize that Jon's Stark looks don't come from Ned. That's quite a challenge if you're thinking just by yourself. The books bombard you over and over with the idea that Jon has to be Ned's son because goshdarnit, Jon is Ned's spitting image; and no character in the books ever suspects or mentions otherwise. I just fundamentally disagree with any idea or insinuation that R+L=J is some sort of red herring for "more careful but not the most careful" readers. It gets us into really meta territory with thinking like The superficial reader won't pick up on the R+L=J clues and will reach the wrong conclusion (N+A=J, N+W=J, N+FD=J). The more careful reader will pick up on the R+L=J clues but will still reach the wrong conclusion (R+L=J). The most careful reader will pick up that R+L=J is a red herring and that actually, the "superficial" answer is the right one. Expectations subverted!
  12. IMO, I don't believe any reasonable person would say this. There aren't any substantive objections to R+L=J. They're basically all "meta" in nature: It's too obvious! It's too tropey! It doesn't explain what happened to Ashara! Excluding confirmation outside the books, R+L=J is the simplest, most straightforward theory of Jon's parentage. Unlike the truly crackpot theories, R+L=J does not require a secret marriage that has no textual support (N+A=J, B+A=J) a baby swap that has no purpose except to ferry a character from Westeros to Essos (Greenhand N+A=J) brother-sister incest that has no textual support (N+L=J, B+L=J) a minor background character having multiple identities, as in Ashara Dayne is Wylla, the Fisherman's Daughter, and Septa Lemore bad random parents soap opera writing (Arthur+L=J) etc. the list sadly goes on.
  13. I think you missed the context to @SFDanny's answer. They're taking as given @Megorova's argument that Jon "was conceived during the time period Lord Godric tells Davos of," and then asking why Ned would lie about that if it were true. Your alternative parentage theory makes the same mistake as nearly every other alternative parentage theory, which is whenever a character has a simple, straightforward, and safe option versus a complex, convoluted, and risky option; your theory has the character choosing the latter, every single time.
  14. That's not what I'm claiming. I'm claiming that if you read the text as it is, Cat's maids never whispered that. As I said, I always thought that Cat heard the N+A=J rumor from her maids, and it's of course certainly possible. But it isn't explicitly stated on the page; it's something the reader must infer. And the inference may be wrong. As I pointed out, with Arya, Edric Dayne directly tells her that Wylla is Jon's mother. Despite that, Arya chooses to fixate on the Ashara-Ned "fell in love" rumor.
  15. I always had the same impression as @Frey family reunion that Catelyn heard a rumor that Ashara is Jon's mom. From Catelyn II, AGOT: But from @Ygrain's comments, I reread the passage, and it's interesting that it doesn't explicitly confirm that Cat's maids gossiped about Ashara being Jon's mother. It only confirms that they heard a story from Ned's soldiers about how Ned killed Arthur and then brought his sword back to Ashara. This would suggest that like her daughter Arya, Cat mentally made the N+A=J connection on her own. It wasn't something that they actually heard (e.g. Edric Dayne outright tells Arya that Wylla is Jon's mother, but she fixates on the Ashara-Ned "fell in love" rumor).
  16. Point taken. I had forgotten that there still exist tinfoilers who hold that Brandon is Jon's father.
  17. Your response is basically the same as what I mentioned and addressed: Cersei placed no restriction on the status of Ned's children. She didn't ask him "you love your children with Catelyn, do you not?" "you love your trueborn children, do you not?" "you love your highborn children, do you not?" She just asked him Based on that question wording, If Jon is one of Ned's children, his name should be on that list: "Robb and Jon and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon." Even if you want to argue that despite the question wording, Ned mentally separates his children by legitimacy, Jon's name should still be on that list: "Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon; or Jon." But neither of those happened on the page. Ned does not think of Jon as one of his children, trueborn or bastard, when he thinks to himself, R+L=J easily explains this: Jon isn't one of Ned's children. R+L=J denial can't explain this without rewording Cersei's question; assuming that Jon's name is implied on the page; dodging it by saying that Ned still thinks of Jon from Cat's perspective; or worst of all, bizarrely claiming that Ned is the George Washington-Abraham Lincoln of Westeros and never lies.
  18. That's not "obvious" at all. There's no evidence that Cat or anyone else at Winterfell gossiped about Jon's wet nurse (Wylla or not) being Jon's mother: Wylla or not, there is no evidence of there being any gossip about the wet nurse being Jon's mother or Ned's concubine. And when Cat marshaled the courage to ask Ned, she didn't ask him whether "the wet nurse" was Jon's mother. She asked him whether Ashara was Jon's mother.
  19. Didn't you say this? If you're going to play that Jordan Peterson game of always tip-toeing around what you mean without ever saying it out loud, count me out.
  20. I don't agree that that's "just like" that. But if we're limiting ourselves, for sake of discussion, exclusively to words in the books, then I'll ask you the same question I ask everyone who continues to insist that Ned Stark is Jon Snow's father (and which I asked earlier in the thread): In Eddard XII, Ned thinks to himself and lists all of his children by name in the order they were born: yet Jon's name is not in that list. Why isn't Jon's name in that list? I have never heard a satisfactory answer to this question from anyone who denies R+L=J. What I have heard are things like Jon's name is implied to be in the list (me: it may be implied, but it's definitely not actually in the list). Ned is thinking about what Catelyn would do (me: he does, after he first thinks about what he would do). Jon is Ned's bastard, so he shouldn't be in the same list as Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon (me: Cersei only asked Ned whether he loves his children, not whether he loves his children with Catelyn). Ned still thinks of Jon (me: this dodges my question, which is why doesn't Ned list Jon's name together with Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon when Ned is thinking about what he would do if he were in Jaime/Cersei's position). Ned called Jon his son in public, therefore Jon is his son, case closed! (me: lol) So when Cersei asks Ned "you love your children, do you not?" and Ned is thinking about what he would do if he were in Jaime/Cersei's position, why does Ned exclude Jon's name from the named list of his children in the order they were born?
  21. I love the multiple identities of Ashara Dayne: Wylla, the Fisherman's Daughter, Septa Lemore, Jyana Reed, etc. I also love how the one time Ashara Dayne's name comes up in all 15 of Ned's POV chapters, it's one mention by Cersei, to which Ned has no reaction, internally or externally.
  22. Argh, that was silly of me. Yes, you are right; ultimately Ned is the original in-universe source of being Jon's father.
  23. If he believes Ned never lies because the "canon text" says so, then he's right that there is no mystery: Wylla is Jon Snow's mother, and we've had 167 threads of nonsense for nothing
  24. It's in the FAQ I will never not find it hilarious how the heretics always accuse anyone who believes in RLJ of not reading the books carefully when they constantly say things that are just factually wrong (as opposed to a difference in interpretation). Ned never lies! Ned hadn't thought of Rhaegar in years! "My blood" always means "my son"!
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