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Nadden

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Posts posted by Nadden

  1. 50 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

    What difference does that make? The white walker attacked Grenn, Small Paul, and Sam. It had the same pale blue crystal sword that screeched terribly. If the white walker exists in this chapter then why not the Prologue?

    I’m sorry if I seems condescending but do you recall who grasped the grip of Ser Waymar Royce’s longsword?

    This serves as a subtle clue to the significance of the sapphires.

  2. 25 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

    The broken sword does have three sapphires. I think it was Waymar’s sword and that a wildling picked it up. Maybe as a trophy or maybe because they planned to melt it down later. We don’t know.

    The arrangement of the sapphires fixed on the hilt of the longsword is not specifically stated and the cut is perhaps not important enough to mention. However, it is probable that the cuts were meticulously designed to enhance the brilliance and sparkle of the stones. It is likely that the numerous delicate facets are strategically arranged to optimize the reflection and refraction of light, ultimately amplifying the gem's beauty under the gentle glow of even a half-moon.

    Would you agree that one possible arrangement of the sapphires could be two in the guard and one in the pommel? And that the moonlight refracted in the gems could be described as a fiery blue? 

     

  3. 26 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

    The white walkers are real characters in the story. One followed Sam after the Watch fled the Fist. Sam managed to stab it (even though his eyes were closed). Sam opened his eyes and saw the obsidian dagger smoking in the white walkers neck. The regulars that post in Heresy like to refer to him as Ser Puddles.

    The absence of any reference to blue eyes was duly noted:)

  4. 5 hours ago, Melifeather said:

    The wildlings had his broken sword and tossed it in with all the other weapons when they came through the Wall.

    This might be a good point to establish a shared understanding. Do you believe that the vaguely described glittering jewels on the hilt of Ser Waymar’s longsword are sapphires? And do you believe that there are three gems fixed on the hilt of the longsword once trembling on high? Martin's narrative is shrouded in mystery, thanks to the deliberate vagueness he employs.

    Perhaps ‘The broken sword would be our proof’ and put us on common ground. 

  5. 2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

    Are you trying to tell me that the Watch hasn’t figured out yet after 8000 years that the Frostfangs are black mirrors of obsidian? And where’s your proof that Waymar is alive? The wildlings had his broken sword and tossed it in with all the other weapons when they came through the Wall.

    I’m not suggesting anything about the Frostfangs. I’m focus on the one scene. To broaden our perspective wouldn’t be beneficial to this discussion yet. It would detract from the focus and dilute the topic at hand. I’d rather not avoid talking about Waymar’s mirrored moves or infrasound or the light and shadows. We could certainly discuss the broken sword hilt, it’s part of the scene. The one with the three blue sapphires in it. It’s no coincidence that there are three blue eyes in the prologue and three sapphires in the hilt of that broken sword. And it’s no coincidence that the hilt of that sword is within mere feet of those blue eyes each time Will perceive them. 
     

    And consider the irony, redemption arc, of Ser Waymar Royce who says, "I am not going back to Castle Black a failure on my first ranging...", only to end up returning as a member of the Wildlings. The broken sword hilt lies fallen at Ser Waymar's feet, a poignant symbol of his transformation. I can't help but wish that Jon had paid closer attention to the Wildling, particularly the one with a possibly wounded eye...

    Also,….

    I did start to read the thread you shared. Lots to read. One point, the wildlings raiders being Others and Ironborn. 
     

    Pirates are raiders by definition. A depiction of pirates with daggers in their teeth is a common trope in literature, especially in pirate-themed novels. I believe Will is/was Ironborn. His speech, taste for iron, and his ability to (climb/scale) (the branches/the rigging) of a (vaulting tree/ship’s mast) parallel some other far-eyes that we read about.

    Turning back to the mirror, the alignment of the half-moon in the night sky is crucial for achieving the desired effect. It's reminiscent of the significance of Stonehenge and the solstices. Maybe Groundhog Day served as a source of inspiration for Martin. When Waymar catches a glimpse of his shadow, it signals Winter is coming…

     

  6.  

    “the only valuable kind of storytelling is about the human heart at war with itself” — George R. R. Martin

    The characters created by Martin are renowned for their ethical uncertainty and intricacy, mirroring the concepts put forth by Carl Jung, a Swiss psychiatrist. Whether Martin employs Jungian psychology in his character development or simply seeks to craft characters that are authentic and multifaceted is unclear. However, the term "shadow self", coined by Jung to describe the concealed or subconscious elements of an individual, is applicable. The conscious ego does not associate with this shadow self. This shadow can encompass both positive and negative traits, actions, thoughts, and emotions that an individual might refuse to acknowledge or accept. The character Ser Waymar, introduced in the Prologue, exemplifies this through his denial of fear.

    The idea of Ser Waymar Royce at war with his “white” shadow self falls firmly in line with what George R. R. Martin believes is the only valuable kind of storytelling.

    Jung theorized that the 'shadow self' is largely composed of suppressed thoughts, instincts, vulnerabilities, desires, and shameful fears. Although these facets are typically viewed as negative, the shadow self also houses positive attributes that have been neglected or underdeveloped. In the case of Waymar, he aspires to embody the archetype of the 'White Knight', which leads to the repression of his fear, resulting in negative repercussions. Therefore, Waymar is set to face this 'White Knight', representing his shadow self, and through self-realization, he will evolve.

    Jung suggested that acknowledging and confronting one's shadow self is a critical part of self-awareness and personal growth. Ignoring or repressing these aspects can lead to psychological imbalance, while integrating the shadow into one's conscious experience can lead to a more complete and harmonious self.

    So when you take into account that divination, the act of seeking wisdom or direction from mystical or spiritual entities through different techniques, employs black mirrors as a means for scrying, it logically fits into a narrative that encompasses the interpretation of signs, omens and symbols to comprehend prophecies and gain insight into the future or reveal concealed truths about the present or past.

    Divination has been a part of numerous cultures and societies throughout time, often utilized for spiritual, personal or decision-making reasons. Astrology and I Ching are among the typical forms of divination.

    I Ching, a pillar of ancient Chinese philosophy, is linked with Taoism, the Yin/Yang symbol, and the earliest forms of writing.

    These are not ideas that I started with but rather landed on. I followed the clues.

    Note my last post to LynnS. There’s little to no doubt that Waymar slashed baby trees, saplings, along “the way”. And there’s little to no doubt that there’s blood, I mean sap, on his blade —Sticky sap. There’s sticky sap everywhere. Waymar’s blade, Will’s hands, his cheek, and on the shards.

    The imagery of the Yin/Yang symbol, a huge clue, about many things.

    I thought going through Waymar’s movements would help to prove it all beyond a reasonable doubt for you.

    The proof of a volcano's existence is robust, especially considering infrasound, though I concede that a single piece of evidence is not sufficient. However, we have evidence supporting evidence, for instance, the trembling sword of Vic Tandy.

    There is still more proof to consider, but I sense that I haven't quite convinced you of the possibility yet.

    I’ll read what you’ve posted:)

     

     

     

  7. 39 minutes ago, LynnS said:

    "Under the sea" could mean a few things: the underground cave of the greenseers, under a sea of trees or under a sea of snow.  Is Patchface telling us that the wights/whites are "crows" under the snow?  Or the white walkers are crows made of snow?  Are the crows men of the Watch?

    Initial thoughts -

    Waymar, a crow, is a fool who danced with a “white shadow”, his reflection, to a sound, infrasound, he could not hear. 
     

    I’m unsure of this; but Waymar may actually be a northern bastard (Brandon Stark).

    Remember the Wall with Waymar’s reflection, used for scrying, was weeping.

    Like the antler in Bran 1, that symbolizes lightbringer and the “white shadow’s” sword, the antlers here have bells that make noise like that shards of the “white shadow’s” sword[shards were the voices of the watchers].

    I think your correct that crows are “white shadows”

  8. 6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

    OK I have a cunning plan... featuring the Bran chapter as suggested, and taking it forward from the ambush we've just been discussing. Gimme a couple of days to work it up, and in the meantime feel free to continue with Wil and Ser Waymar 

    Great:) But I should say that Ser Waymar Royce lives and was not coldly butchered. I believe he makes it back to Castle Black.

  9. On 5/24/2024 at 7:28 AM, LynnS said:

    It looks to me like opinions are very firm.  So I don't know where the conversation would go from here.  I don't have anything else to say about it.  But if you want to continue with it; that's fine with me.

    I have another thought if you’re interested. Taoism, which is associated with nameless Gods, and meditation, and the Yin/Yang symbol means “the way”. Like the naming convention used for Hodor meaning hold the door; Waymar means marring the way. He does this when he cuts down all of those poor little saplings along “the way”. The killing of children is a major theme in our story.

    Quote

    Will went in front, his shaggy little garron picking the way carefully through the undergrowth.

     

  10. On 5/24/2024 at 5:55 AM, Melifeather said:

    I have been thinking about the spiral patterns that the show version chose to employ - the corpses in the woods and the stone spiral with the weirwood tree in the center. I don't recall the books even suggesting spiral patterns unless it was suggested and I missed it somehow? Was this some tidbit that the show creators verbally gleaned from GRRM? Symbolically spiral staircases indicate a descent into the underworld.

    The show chose the theta symbol for the Prologue. “Theta” brainwaves are a type of brainwave frequency that typically occurs during deep relaxation, meditation, and during the stage of sleep when dreaming occurs. Theta waves are associated with creativity, intuition, daydreaming, and subconscious thinking. It's believed that theta brainwave states allow us to access deeper emotional responses and potentially unresolved issues. This was part of my evidence for the meditation that the CotF were doing earlier. (They weren’t Wildlings frozen or dead)

  11. On 5/24/2024 at 4:08 AM, LynnS said:

    Well opinions are on the table for this prologue and I think its done for now.  Why not go onto the next chapter, Bran I and have a look at that again.   We could follow Brans arc through AGOT.  I haven't done that before.  I have a few thoughts about Bran I at any rate.

    I’d love to but some many of these ideas tie in together. Why Gared went mad and the mother direwolf.

    One small detail - the wood for the bridge came from the tree who’s stump was the block for Gared’s beheading.

  12. On 5/24/2024 at 2:21 AM, Black Crow said:

    Little point and of no consequence, but while Will asserted that she was a "far eyes" or lookout and so behaves accordingly to avoid being seen, he never actually says that her eyes were open.

    With the woman in the ironwood (a deciduous tree) at the bottom of the ridge we are seeing an inverted but parallel idea. The woman, a far-eyes, is a CotF half-hid in the branches. And young Will, a lookout, lost among the needles of a sentinel (an evergreen) at the top of a ridge is a boy, whom I believe is Ironborn, in a tree.
     

    Even the show put a girl in the tree.

  13. On 5/23/2024 at 7:16 AM, Melifeather said:

    "Why is it so cold" indicates a severe change in temperature, something we are told happens when the Others come. Will could see them moving in the trees on the ridge not down in the clearing where the rock was. How can you say that Will is seeing reflections when he isn't even looking towards the rock? Furthermore, what is the significance of the temperature change?

    The sudden cold feeling effects of infrasound on the body. Remember Waymar’s droplets of blood, like half the frozen stream, didn’t freeze.

  14. On 5/23/2024 at 7:16 AM, Melifeather said:

    Again I ask, how could this be a reflection when Will is looking down and not towards any great black mirror?

    One only needs to look directly into a mirror if they wish to see their own reflection. But Will can see Waymar from an angle. In fact, this will explain the blue eyes. The blue sapphires in the hilt of Ser Waymar Royce's longsword, when held aloft and paused, will momentarily align with the shadowy orbital sockets of his reflection.

  15. On 5/23/2024 at 7:16 AM, Melifeather said:

    If the wildlings left alive, why would they leave a weapon behind? As for Waymar...he slashed at a branch as he made it to the top of the ridge. If the rock were a mirror it would be down in the clearing. The branch that he slashed to make room for himself to see could not be a reflection of an imagined foe.

    The “great rock” is down at the bottom of the slope in the clearing; not up by the sentinel tree. Remember, Will sees the “white shadow” from up in the tree. 

  16. On 5/23/2024 at 7:16 AM, Melifeather said:

    Speaking of the lean-to against the snow covered rock. It's quite a jump to assume that it's some large black obsidian mirror or even the remnants of a caldera. When you are hiking up a mountain like the Frostfangs you're bound to go over foothills, ridges, small peaks, and winding valleys. Nowhere are the Frostfangs described as being circular like a caldera.


    The rugged ridge, populated densely with vegetation, rising to a slender peak, served as an initial hint. However, due to Will's straight-on view of the ridge, the round contour of the peak is not immediately apparent. It is only when Will ceases his ascent of the tree, “he listened; he watched”, that a faint suggestion of the ridge's shape is made evident. It’s through Martin's use of some clever imagery that we can see it.

    Like the moon (another small hint) above undulating ridge of the caldera’s far side the crater is seemingly covered half in shadow.

    We have Ser Waymar Royce, dressed in all black, turning in a slow circle against the icy backdrop of a snow-covered ridge bathed in moonlight. On the Other side, “a (white) shadow emerged from the dark of the wood”. Now Will doesn’t see the “white shadow” turning in a slow circle because he’s watching Waymar in the moment that the imagery of the Yin/Yang symbol becomes complete. The undulating far side ridge gives the shadow its “s” curve.

    However, the clues don't end there. There's also auditory evidence to consider. There are specific sounds that Will both hears and doesn't hear. The echo that reverberates "too loudly in the twilit forest" (dead...dead...dead) may hint at the threats of a potentially active volcano and could, at the very least, suggests the presence of a nearby crater. While this clue may seem weak when isolated, when paired with the low-frequency sound waves that the rangers simultaneously perceive, it substantiates the evidence considerably.

    Low-frequency sound waves, or infrasound, often linked with seismic activity, have been closely connected with paranormal phenomena. This is due to the resonant frequency of the human eye and its purported interference with theta brain waves. The discovery of this phenomenon was triggered by the shivering of a sword, similar to Arya's "needle". In the Prologue, ones discovery could be brought about by Waymar's trembling longsword. This low frequency sound wave is also known as the “fear frequency” or the “brown note” which would describe “a nervous tension that came perilous close to fear”  and how Will’s “bowels had turned to water”.

    This place is special to the CotF, who use the Wall, “great rock”, for scrying. The wordplay plays like this….

    Quote

    "Weeping," Will said, frowning. He saw it clear enough, now that the lordling had pointed it out. "They couldn't have froze. Not if the Wall was weeping. It wasn't cold enough."

     

    Of course if we substitute another word for (s) weeping, “crying”, we get scrying which is a form of divination using a black mirrors.

    You can read about Vic Tandy’s discovery of infrasound. I don’t believe it’s a coincidence that it’s like Will’s observation of Waymar’s shivering sword.

  17. You're correct in observing the distinction between the narrator's voice and the characters' perspectives. What I failed to articulate well is that the narrator solely conveys Will's thoughts, feelings, and perceptions. Thus, if the narrator states that the rangers are on the trail of a group of Wildling raiders, it implies that this is Will's belief, but it’s not fact.

    Evaluating Will's tracking skills is a tricky task. Is it merely about noticing disruptions in the snow? Or is it about deducing the number, type, and time of the tracks? They presumed they were following Wildlings, though they never actually saw them. Surely, Ser Waymar Royce wouldn't have spent nine days to engage them if they had. It's probable that the rangers were under orders to trail any Wildlings they encountered. I don't think Waymar and his team saw Wildlings and then went back to consult Lord Commander Mormont on their course of action. Therefore, if they never saw the Wildlings and only assumed they were tracking such, they could have made a mistake. The narrator wouldn't inform us of this incorrect assumption, as the story is told from Will's perspective.

    Subsequently, Tyrion, while speaking with Mormont, learns that Will is as good as any in the Watch when it comes to ranging - a rather vague endorsement. Furthermore, the narrator is expressing Will's own conviction about his extraordinary abilities in the woods in the passage below. However, as demonstrated, he is actually only a good climber but not necessarily ‘silent’ in the woods.

    Quote

    …No one could move through the woods as silent as Will, and it had not taken the black brothers long to discover his talent.

    This idea goes along way in explaining what happens to the Wildlings and their actions after Will first visits the camp. They are the “watchers” who hid in the shadows.

    You’re saying “dead humans”, no blood, I assume meaning magically frozen to death. Mentally mind controlled to kill Waymar on cue. That’s not even what Will is thinking. But his thoughts are vague and leave much open to interpretation.

    I’m suggesting that my interpretation is a bit more logical and still fits within the bounds of the wording.

    For example, I’m saying they weren’t frozen or dead but meditating.

  18. 15 hours ago, Black Crow said:

    This discussion has caused [forced?] me to carefully re-read this prologue - not a bad thing - and I really can't get behind Nadden's theses and in particular the suggestion that it's all told from Will's viewpoint. It isn't. Its written by GRRM. He certainly uses Will's viewpoint but not exclusively and Will doesn't survive to tell the tale - unreliable or otherwise.


    Of course it’s written by GRRM but he has chosen a point of view. He does change the point of view character with each chapter. However, it's important to note that even within a single chapter, he maintains the third person limited point of view, not revealing the thoughts or feelings of characters other than the one whose perspective we're in. He names each chapter with the point of view character, in this case Will. Meaning we only have access to his thoughts, feelings, and perceptions, and do not know what Gared or Waymar are thinking or feeling unless Will observes or interprets it. He never changes the point of view. The narrative might be otherwise very confusing. 

    Beyond the suspense, because the readers know only what the point of view character knows and not other hidden thoughts and intentions of the other characters, the limited point of view can create an unreliable narrator. Meaning the story is filtered through their perceptions and biases. This can add an interesting layer of complexity to the narrative.

    One example of the bias, that many readers adopt toward Ser Waymar Royce, is from the negative attitude Will harbors against the entitled, inexperienced, and arrogant ‘lordling’.

    In fact, upon re-reading the chapter, you'll realize Will never verbally addresses Ser Waymar Royce as a 'lordling'. The term 'lordling', which is somewhat derogatory, only ever appears in Will's thoughts. The term 'lordling' is thought of by Will nine times, indirectly communicating his sentiments towards the young leader during those instances.

    However, Will does hear Gared utter the term audibly after Ser Waymar ridicules him.

    The point of the matter is that these subtle details subtly shape, maybe even on a subconscious level, our perception of Ser Waymar Royce.

    And the point I was putting forth regarding Will's dirk demonstrates his lack of awareness. The text doesn't directly state the fate of the dirk, as Will is unaware that he has let it slip. As readers, we are left to infer the eventuality of the dirk.

    The unexpected challenge by the young lord, "Who goes there?", voiced with an unsure tone, followed by a measured, cautious turn, compels the reader to interpret the situation. An unperceived sound, both by Will and the reader, hints at an event - the fallen dirk.

    This serves as an illustration of a restricted viewpoint. And it’s because we stay with this restricted point of view (high in the sentinel) that we can see the imagery of the Yin/Yang symbol that Waymar’s dueling scene creates.

    And it’s because of this that we never see Will die. In fact, he could have fainted for all we know…

    Quote

    The broken sword fell from nerveless fingers. Will closed his eyes to pray. Long, elegant hands brushed his cheek, then tightened around his throat. They were gloved in the finest moleskin and sticky with blood, yet the touch was icy cold.

    …which is what I’m going to suggest happens.

    16 hours ago, Black Crow said:

    I don't understand the suggestion that Ser Waymar's patrol wasn't “hard on the track of a band of Wildling raiders”. The prologue opens with a discussion about what Will had discovered on his scout: "Nine days they had been riding,north and northwest and then north again, farther and farther from the Wall, hard on the track of a band of wildling raiders"

    If we understand that the three rangers simply think they are tracking a band of Wildling raiders and that it’s not fact and we assume that the bodies Will saw in the camp two miles farther on, over that ridge, hard beside a stream, than who ever they were are the ones the rangers were tracking

    It's not hard to grasp why the three rangers believed they were trailing Wildling raiders. Most likely, they never actually saw whom they were following, and in their minds, what other group of humans could possibly exist beyond the Wall? None.

    In the same way Will uses the term ‘lordling’ in moments when he is thinking of Waymar; he uses the word ‘wildling’, a derogatory term, for people north of the Wall. Gared uses the word aloud, so perhaps he suggested they were ‘Wildlings’ initially. We don’t know. My analysis shows that the ‘watchers’ were the ones Will saw in the camp initially. They weren’t frozen like Will thinks and they weren’t dead like Waymar assumes.

    The position of the bodies give us a small hint.

    I’ll try to respond more later. I hope we can agree about the third person limited point of view. It’s critical to understanding the other points. There’s nothing in the Prologue that you can’t frame in Will’s POV.

  19. 7 hours ago, Melifeather said:

    I think it's a mistake to believe that Waymar and Gared died fighting themselves in a black mirror. To me it's like inserting the "fire story" into ice's storyline. The fire storyline is in Esso's with Daenerys. This is also one of the reasons why I don't believe Jon Snow is Rhaegar's son. Jon Snow is the ice protagonist while Daenerys is the fire. If ice and fire already mated and created Jon Snow, then the balance in the story is off kilter with a male ice/fire being the opposite of a female fire. 

    I believe there's substantial proof pointing towards the presence of an ancient caldera, and each maneuver in Waymar's duel can be reasonably argued to possibly be mirrored by the “white shadow”. This evidence, collectively, would form a very compelling argument for what I’m suggesting, irrespective of any alternative theories. And any more evidence would likely push the idea beyond a reasonable doubt.

    Will’s perception is wrong about nearly everything. 

    - They weren’t “hard on the track of a band of Wildling raiders”

    -The bodies Will saw weren’t frozen or even dead.

    - He misinterprets Ser Waymar’s dance.

    - He’s mistaken about the “cold butchery”

    -And he’s confused about Waymar’s resurrection.

  20. 21 minutes ago, LynnS said:

    Which made me wonder if they can alter a weapon that they have at hand.  Melisander says the Others are made of snow and ice and cold.  It's not ordinary ice, well, because it's flexible and allows for subtle movement.  Ice spiders come to mind.

     I make the blue component to be "the cold" part of it.   The part that she refers to as the soul of ice.  I think the blue glow can only be in the sword so long as the WW has contact with it.

    Again I haven’t spent to much time analyzing the Samwell 1 chapter of ASOS but I thought of ice spiders when I read this:

    Quote

    A horse's head emerged from the darkness. Sam felt a moment's relief, until he saw the horse. Hoarfrost covered it like a sheen of frozen sweat, and a nest of stiff black entrails dragged from its open belly. On its back was a rider pale as ice.

    I thought maybe the horse that Sam sees is analogous to Sleipnir, Odin's eight-legged horse.

    And the blue glow is moonlight with waves that are a specific part of the visible light spectrum. Blue light waves have shorter wavelengths and higher energy compared to other colors of light, such as red or yellow. Blue light is also scattered more easily than other colors, which is why the sky appears blue during the day.

    Moonlight does not actually glow blue; it appears to be blue to our eyes due to a phenomenon called Rayleigh scattering. Rayleigh scattering is the scattering of light by particles in the atmosphere. When moonlight passes through the Earth's atmosphere, the shorter blue wavelengths of light are scattered more efficiently than the longer red wavelengths. This scattering effect causes the blue light to be more prominent in the moonlight that reaches our eyes, giving the impression that moonlight has a bluish hue. In reality, moonlight is reflected sunlight, and its color is actually a very pale yellow or white, depending on the moon's phase.

  21. 2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

    You're not the first to suggest a black mirror, but if it were a mirror shouldn't there be the same number of "people" on each side? If there's only Waymar, Will, and Gared looking and being mirrored, then there should only be three shadows.

    I’m “not the first”:). Who are the others? I’d love to connect with them. I haven’t met anyone who has made these discoveries. The validation would feel refreshing:rolleyes:

    Of course it’s only Waymar bathed in the moonlight standing before the “great rock”. The “watchers” only “emerged silently from the shadows”. They are only thought to be “twins to the first” not “shadows”. It needs to be pointed out that, “the first” is not the “white shadow” (Waymar’s reflection). The “woman up an ironwood, half-hid in the branches” is “the first” that Will is thinking of in that moment. The description of the “watchers” with the shifting patterns of delicate armor making them all but invisible in the wood, looking half-hid in branches, is what he’s remembering. So there are six that he’s counting in his head, “three of them…four…five…”, plus the one he’s remembering in the ironwood.

    The reason Ser Waymar never saw them, never heard them is because they were silent and imperceptible in the shadows. Only some things bathed in the light of the moon can be perceived in the black obsidian mirror. And there’s no funhouse:closedeyes:-one “great” wall.

    Mirror, mirror on the wall who’s the fairest (most handsome) of them all? Waymar? [A magic mirror inspired by Snow White]

    The two disembodied white masks (Waymar’s moonlit face and his reflection) symbolize the comedy and tragedy masks of the performing arts. Of course Waymar is the cocksure laughing fool and his distorted reflection is the weeping tragic hero [weeping wall]. Cloaked by his “sable crowning glory” his body is invisible at first. [A cloak of invisibility] He will “emerge from the dark of the wood” a few moments later.
     

    Waymar’s longsword, a personification of him, makes him a symbolic sword in the stone.

    Magic mirrors, magic swords, and invisible cloaks are all themes being laid out by Martin in the Prologue.

    2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

    Obsidian is described as being black in color. The Other's sword was pale blue.

    Obsidian glass is translucent the thinner it gets. The Wall, “great rock” is thick. And the Other’s longsword, the reflection of Waymar’s longsword, was sticky with sap after butchering all of those saplings along the way. His repeated strikes against the massive stone wall creates micro-shards of obsidian that sticks to his blades making it come alive with moonlight and appear pale blue. The reason  it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on is because it no captures the moonlight at certain angles.

    2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

    Don't forget that the entire series is based upon opposing forces or rather two sides of the same coin

    Yes!!! Waymar and the “white shadow” are two sides of the same coin.

    And lastly, the “watchers” are the CotF.

  22. 1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

    You took a very long time to reply to my post! 

    When asked what substance the swords of the Others are made from, Martin answered "Ice. But not like regular old ice. The Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it."

    Despite numerous attempts, I struggled to succinctly organize my thoughts in a creative and comprehensive manner to provide a thorough analysis of the Prologue. This led me into a cycle of endless revisions.…

    But I can better now respond to you questions:) It seems obvious that Martin’s coy use of the term “ice” is his way of avoiding the answer. In fact, the substance that I’m suggesting is obsidian is perceived by Will to sound like sharp icicles when he closes his eyes and listens to the voices and laughter of the “watchers”. The sound that he’s actually hearing is the broken shards of volcanic glass (“rain of needles”) surrounding Ser Waymar Royce on the ground. The moment is an inverse parallel to Waymar being “outlined nobly against the stars” as he gains the ridge.
     

    The watchers are stepping on the shards and making those sounds. Black glittering glass (stars) against the white snow (black sky). He literally is using ice as a metaphor for “frozen fire”.

  23. 6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

    I'm still inclined to feel that you're reading too much into this. Clues are all very well but they need to lead somewhere and sooner rather than later. If, just to take your suggestion of an ancient caldera, GRRM would surely provide more than just a ridge - especially when there's no hint of a return. All of those involved - apart from the Walkers are long dead and like all the other characters in prologues never appear again, far less explain.

    Indeed, the beauty of a prologue lies in our authors’ ability to subtly place all the necessary clues within the confines of the chapter. Like a puzzle, each piece is placed one at a time with each scrap of plausible evidence adding to the larger picture until the evidence is sufficient to push a theory beyond any reasonable doubt.

    My search for evidence o regarding the ancient caldera came after being able explain how every move Ser Waymar Royce is mirrored in the “great rock”.  It stood to reason that for a large piece of obsidian, a black mirror, to exist there must be a volcano.

    Martin's adherence to a strict point of view approach makes it conveniently difficult for the reader to fully comprehend everything happening in the series. Many times he doesn’t allow himself to state things directly.

    The rugged ridge, populated densely with vegetation, rising to a slender peak, served as an initial hint. However, due to Will's straight-on view of the ridge, the round contour of the peak is not immediately apparent. It is only when Will ceases his ascent of the tree, “he listened; he watched”, that a faint suggestion of the ridge's shape is made evident. It’s through Martin's use of some clever imagery that we can see it.

    Like the moon (another small hint) above undulating ridge of the caldera’s far side the crater is seemingly covered half in shadow.

    We have Ser Waymar Royce, dressed in all black, turning in a slow circle against the icy backdrop of a snow-covered ridge bathed in moonlight. On the Other side, “a (white) shadow emerged from the dark of the wood”. Now Will doesn’t see the “white shadow” turning in a slow circle because he’s watching Waymar in the moment that the imagery of the Yin/Yang symbol becomes complete. The undulating far side ridge gives the shadow its “s” curve.

    However, the clues don't end there. There's also auditory evidence to consider. There are specific sounds that Will both hears and doesn't hear. The echo that reverberates "too loudly in the twilit forest" (dead...dead...dead) may hint at the threats of a potentially active volcano and could, at the very least, suggests the presence of a nearby crater. While this clue may seem weak when isolated, when paired with the low-frequency sound waves that the rangers simultaneously perceive, it substantiates the evidence considerably.

    Low-frequency sound waves, or infrasound, often linked with seismic activity, have been closely connected with paranormal phenomena. This is due to the resonant frequency of the human eye and its purported interference with theta brain waves. The discovery of this phenomenon was triggered by the shivering of a sword, similar to Arya's "needle". In the Prologue, ones discovery could be brought about by Waymar's trembling longsword. This low frequency sound wave is also known as the “fear frequency” or the “brown note” which would describe “a nervous tension that came perilous close to fear”  and how Will’s “bowels had turned to water”.

    This place is special to the CotF, who use the Wall, “great rock”, for scrying. The wordplay plays like this….

    Quote

    "Weeping," Will said, frowning. He saw it clear enough, now that the lordling had pointed it out. "They couldn't have froze. Not if the Wall was weeping. It wasn't cold enough."

     

    Of course if we substitute another word for (s) weeping, “crying”, we get scrying which is a form of divination using a black mirrors.

    There’s more evidence and more to tell but ultimately…..For example, what makes a destrier (infrasound) and why the wind seemingly stops for Waymar (He’s in a crater) ….”Winter is coming.

  24. 13 hours ago, LynnS said:

    We do get a description of this type of sword in Storm of Swords:

    There are numerous similarities between these two chapters. Despite having largely developed my thoughts on the Prologue of AGOT, I've not done as much with this particular chapter.

    But hear are some examples of interesting parallels. This from ASOS, Samwell 1:

    Quote

    Lower branches of the great green Sentinel shed their burden of snow with a soft wet plop. Grenn spun, thrusting out his torch. “Who goes there?” a horses head emerged from the darkness.

    Can you recall the moment when Will is up in a vaulting grey-green sentinel tree, watching “pale shapes” gliding through the wood, as Ser Waymar Royce calls out suddenly? The "uncertainty" in his voice arose from the fact that he didn't see anyone; he just heard a noise. This is the passage from the Prologue of AGOT where Waymar issues the same challenge as Grenn:

    Quote

    Down below, the lordling called out suddenly, “Who goes there?” Will heard uncertainty in the challenge. He stopped climbing; he listened; he watched.

    The sound that Ser Waymar Royce perceives, is the same as what Grenn and Sam heard. Will, however, never hears the faint noise, even though he is the one who made it while attempting to call down a warning upon spotting the "pale shapes" reflected by the sapphire jewels adorning the hilt of Ser Waymar Royce's longsword. Will's dirk slips from his mouth, causing the branches of the sentinel tree to shed their burden of snow with a "plop!"

    Thus, the initial usage of the term "Others" in the series occurs when Will presumes that Ser Waymar Royce has noticed somebody or something. These 'Others' are merely figments of Will's imagination. He neither heard nor saw them. Here is the relevant line:

     

    Quote

     

    The woods gave answer: the rustle of leaves, the icy rush of a stream, a distant hoot of a snow owl.

     

    The Others made no sound.


     

     

     

    After turning his head, Will does glimpse a “white shadow” in the darkness as Ser Waymar Royce turns in a slow circle, suddenly wary.

    The point I'm trying to make is that these two scenes share many similarities that help to interpret and/or corroborate the realities of the others' scene. The "plop" sound shed light on the situation with the dirk, since Will doesn't seem to realize that he drops it. I theorize that the slow-burning torch, with its tree sap fuel, subtly alludes to the (sap+fire) gems on the hilt of Waymar’s longsword. He also has sap on his blade from unnecessarily butchering of the saplings along the way. Later in the scene, his blade appears alive with moonlight (a reflection of the fire of the sun).

    14 hours ago, LynnS said:

    I don't know what it is other than extremely cold and something like ice blue crystal.  The bit where the sword twists and spins sounds like the sword is changing its physical shape as Sam watches.

    Do you remember towards the end of the Prologue scene in AGOT, when Waymar's sword hilt is described as being "splintered and twisted like a tree struck by lightning"? And the breaking of a blade is likened to a "rain of needles". Well, the shattering of blades into "a hundred brittle pieces" and a twisted piece of splintered steel depict two distinct types of damage. One is the result of a sword striking a "great rock", while the other is akin to the shattering of glass. The "tree struck by lightning" is a metaphor for Waymar’s sword hilt, with the lightning symbolizing the impact of the Others’ sword. So Grenn holding a torch struck by a sword moving “lightning quick” would seem to be a nice parallel to Waymar’s sword.


    From ASOS, Samwell 1:

    Quote

    The Other's sword gleamed with a faint blue glow. It moved toward Grenn, lightning quick, slashing. When the ice blue blade brushed the flames, a screech stabbed Sam's ears sharp as a needle. The head of the torch tumbled sideways to vanish beneath a deep drift of snow, the fire snuffed out at once. And all Grenn held was a short wooden stick. He flung it at the Other, cursing, as Small Paul charged in with his axe.

    Noteworthy: The swords are personifications of those wielding them.

    And I agree with  https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/profile/24553-black-crow/:

    2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

    As always, I'd be wary of reading too much into this. I'd read it more as twisting and spinning in the Walker's hand as he fences with it, rather than the sword physically changing

     

     

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