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Nadden

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Posts posted by Nadden

  1. On 2/26/2023 at 10:04 AM, sweetsunray said:

    So, Gared is dragged before Ned, questions asked and answers given, but it's not explicitly said to whom Ned asked the questions and who gave the answers. It's possible that he may have asked questions of those who held Gared and tried to talk to him before, or Gared directly.

    Lord Stark, according to Jon’s memory, states “You said the words” and says, “You took a vow, before your brothers, before the old gods and the new.”

    You make a good point. Perhaps they were confirming the look in his eyes. Perhaps it was a mercy killing. I mean yes, he was south of the Wall appearing to desert the Watch; but what exactly does the fear in someone’s eyes look like? Is this where the apparent tradition of looking into a man’s eyes during his final words comes from? Ned tells Bran that if he cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die. 
     

    Bran, so deep in thought about the ragged man’s eyes, has a look about him that Ned notices and so approaches him with a kindly concern.

    Jon seems keenly aware of the look. Obviously he’s seen it before. Did the others earlier in the year have the same look? Is this why Ned believes Winter in coming?
     

    Even Robb’s curse, “The Others take his eyes”, seems to be some type of clue.

    Gared’s blood being compared to wine is also interesting. Jesus, who compares his own blood to wine, comes to mind. Bran remembers the blood of the ragged man when he notes the comparison of the open eyes of the “albino” pup to the rest, still blind. The eyes of the sixth pup were as red as Gared’s blood.
     

    Death and resurrection seem to be symbolized here.

     

  2. 8 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

    How does it work with Kevan’s final scene? The children symbolising the Others? I’ve always wondered about that - the two scenes have a lot of parallels. Kevan even ‘recognises’ some of the children before they stab him. Do we think that George may be implying that the Others are more than they appear to be? Maybe they have been ‘among us’ all the time - us being the Nights Watch/wildlings.

    The children in Kevan’s final scene parallel the watchers in Waymar’s dueling scene. 
     

    Quote

    They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them … four … five … Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them, never heard them. Will had to call out. It was his duty. And his death, if he did. He shivered, and hugged the tree, and kept the silence.

    There are a total of six known children of the forest (Ash, Black Knife, Coals, Leaf, Scales, Snowylocks). The “first” that Will is thinkingly identifying is the far-eyes half- hid in branches of the ironwood from earlier. 
     

    The pale shapes and the white shadow and the watchers ( All purposely vague terms) are all different from each other.

    Remember in the show how they depicted the creation of the first Other? ( A shard of frozen fire in a man)

    In the prologue we see the full cycling—— part of a man in frozen fire then a shard of frozen fire in a man.

    The Other symbolizes our internal counterparts of hate and desire or love and hate.

    I’d love to share more….

    What other parallels were you seeing?

    Do you see the symbolism in Waymar’s eyes
     

     

  3. 41 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

    However you want to interpret this, the passages I've quoted [and the later encounter with Sam] show that GRRM is thinking and talking about real individuals, not some projection from gemstones or images in a mirror. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar

    Then why put a shivering sword in the narrative. And why put a piece of frozen fire in Waymar’s eye? And why call it a “Great” rock? And what’s with all the Yin/Yang references? It feels like you have to ignore a lot to enjoy your cigar.

    These things mean something. Cross my heart, hope to die, stick a needle in my eye. I mean shiver me timbers.

    Those last to sayings are child sayings and they allude to mock oaths or broken promises.

    You should want to investigate these things in order to enjoy your cigar. Martin does love and know his literary references.

  4. 4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

    "In an interruption to our advertised program I'm watching a feature on Sky Atlantic, providing a catch up on the HBO series thus far and featuring interviews with [among others] GRRM, who has just confirmed that when Sam pinked Ser Puddles "he broke the spell holding him together." 

    In other words the walkers are created and sustained by magic, which begs the rather obvious questions as to who might be working the magic and why?

    Is the scene with Galadriel and Frodo in the Lord of the Rings scrying in a basin of water magic? Is the Purkinje effect magic? Was Vic Tandy’s shivering sword magic? All real magic comes from a lack of understanding. 

     

    4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

    'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.”

    The word ‘Others’ by definition is a person or thing that is the counterpart of someone or something else: For example, “the role of the Other in the development of self.”

    A white shadow on the face of a natural occurring obsidian rock painted in the moon’s light would be strange and beautiful.

    Sidhe are from Irish legend comparable to fairies or elves. They are said to be of, relating to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; ghosts. Or fallen angels. So I agree that they appear like ghost to Will. They do appear like a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous. It’s how the haunted forest got it’s name.

    And while I don’t want to take away anything from your nightly rangings in the woods I’m guessing you know little about the practice of scrying in the woods. And likely you’ve never carried a sword bejeweled real sapphires. Or felt the effects of infra sound. You likely never considered the Purkinje effect relative to blood. And I can tell you that we can’t trust what Will sees, hears, and thinks. Will, unknowingly, drops a dirk from his mouth and thinks Waymar’s blood is red. He has now idea what the pale shapes are. He is confused, cold, hungry, and disoriented, and scared.

    The shows final scene of the prologue hints to the idea of theta brain waves with the use of the theta symbol. Check it out. Martin has written a great ghost scene with plausible explanations.

    I don’t mean to simple be contrary but even some of the structure of the writing supports some of these ideas. (Fire and Ice: posted above) Have you considered the meaning of the figurative needle in Waymar’s eye? The shard that came from the rain of needles?

    P.S. obsidian, volcanic rock, is found north of the the Wall. And the Great Other would be a nice parallel to the “great rock”.

  5. 12 hours ago, Melifeather said:

    Then how do you explain the blue glow? Obsidian is black and is made of molten rock. It's been described as frozen fire. Shouldn't it glow red?

    Waymar, a handsome grey-eyed youth, has eyes that pay homage, shows structure, and symbolizes so much in so few words.

    Waymar’s bloody left eye is figuratively compared to fire; and his right eye compares perfectly with another set of eyes that are compared to ice.

    Left eye:

    Quote

    A shard from his sword transfixed the blind white pupil of his left eye.

    …the shards scattering like a rain of needles. Royce went to his knees, shrieking, and covered his eyes. Blood welled between his fingers.

    It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow. 

    So we see the left eye bleeding with the same blood that is “red as fire”. Martin is using similes to develop his figurative language here. He does the same thing with the right eye:

    Quote

    The right eye was open. The pupil burned blue. It saw.

    its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. 

    The right eye, with a pupil that burned blue, compares perfectly with another set of eyes with a blue that burned like ice. 
     

    So, in summary, one eye has blood red as fire and the Other eye is blue that burns like ice. Fire and Ice, a homage to Robert Frost with a popular poem of the same name. Here we begin to see the structure. Two parts of a whole. One side Fire/One side Ice; with aspects of the other in each. Burning ice and then Frozen fire. It’s the same structure as Yin /Yang. 
     

    But where does the blue eye (burning ice) come from and what about the shard (frozen fire) in the left eye. Again we see that they are two aspects of a whole. The shard comes from what appears to be the pale blade and the blue eye comes from Waymar’s hilt. They are both a translucent crystal. The left is obsidian and the the right is sapphire. Obsidian explains why the left eye had a white pupil (It reflects the pale moonlight); and the sapphire explains the burning blue pupil (sapphires capture the moon’s light). There’s very good structural balance thus far.

    I’ve explained where the shard of frozen fire has come from. (The reflection of Waymar’s sword in the black mirror) Note that the pale sword is described using the term “ shard” and obsidian is a translucent crystal or volcanic glasss which shatters much better than metal.

    Quote

    It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal…

    The sapphires are the gems on Waymar’s hilt. Let’s look at Waymar’s hilt:

    Quote

    …drew his longsword from its sheath. Jewels glittered in its hilt, and the moonlight ran down the shining steel.

    Four books later, while watching the Wildlings pass through the wall, John spots a broken hilt with jewels. It has three sapphires in it. I believe this is Waymar’s broken sword hilt. It’s also cool to think that maybe it was a one-eyed man that turned it in. Burning with a deep blue that is bluer than any human eye and is burning is a great description for a Sapphire.

    The term “transfixed” describes the left eye. It means the eye can’t move. Thus sticking with the pattern of the structure  the right eye should move but be “fixed”. Now read this:

    Quote

    The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope.

    The eyes move yet are fixed on the longsword.

    In summary, Will twice mistakes the blue sapphire gems for eyes. 
     

    The pair of eyes that he mistakes for the Other Waymar’s eyes are mounted on the guard of the hilt and the eye that Will mistakes for Waymar’s right eye is on the pommel of the broken sword hilt. The first time the sword is pointed up and the next time it is pointed down. Again an inverted parallel.

    Any questions so far? There’s still more

  6. 4 hours ago, Melifeather said:

    Shouldn't it glow red?

    So glad you pointed these things out. There’s lots to unpack, and you’ve showed me so much patience already. I’m not the best communicator when it comes to writing. To start I want to focus on the action that is happening strictly in the narrative. 
     

    A half moon was full risen on a cloudless night. Will was grateful for the light.
     

    Will is commanded, by Waymar, up the tree to look for a fire and to be quick about it. In a rush Will becomes lost amongst the needles, he has lost his bearings. He no longer knows where, exactly, Waymar and the “great rock” are. But he see something that, in his mind, he vaguely describes as pale shapes. In his head he differentiates the pale shapes from the white shadow that he sees when he turns his head. He doesn’t think that it’s another pale shape because it likely has more form. The pale shapes are actually from the captured moonlight that the sapphire gems on Waymar’s hilt are casting. Will having lost his bearings doesn’t see the origin of the pale shapes. But they glide through the wood. Will feels a need to call down a warning but the white shadow disappears as Waymar moves past the view of the mirror. The knife in his mouth falls out. It’s at this precise moment that Waymar is suddenly wary. Turning in circles he too become disoriented. This is why he calls up to Will, he knows Will is in the sentinel tree. If Will answers he’ll be able to regain his bearings. But Will, afraid, doesn’t call out. He can’t explain what he just saw. Waymar still moving, unknowingly, comes to stand in front of the “great rock”. And that’s when Will sees the Other Waymar.

    At this point, like Will’s inner monologue questions, it’s been a trick of the moonlight.

    Next, as I suggested, we see both Waymar and the Other Waymar mirror each others actions in the mirror:

    They both already have their swords drawn.
     

    Quote

     

    A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce.

    He threw the long sable cloak back over his shoulders, to free his arms for battle, and took his sword in both hands.

    The Other slid forward on silent feet.

     

    These are the first actions of the encounter. Waymar’s cloak had made him invisible in the mirror. It wasn’t reflective. But when he throws it back over his shoulders we get a lengthy description of the Other Waymar and his sword. The sword had been in one hand for only a moment in order to throw his cloak over his shoulders; but that’s when we get the sword description.

    Waymar bravely and gracefully steps forward and warns his reflection to “Come no further”. 
     

    Quote

    Ser Waymar met him bravely.

     
    He lifted his sword high over his head, defiant. His hands trembled from the weight of it, or perhaps from the cold.

    From this we are never told the starting position of the Other Waymar. However, we are told that the Other Waymar is looking up. And in turn we are not told where Waymar is looking. Martin leaves these things out to hide the facts.
     

    Quote

     

    The Other halted. 

    its eyes…fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal.

     

    But we can infer the Other Waymar’s starting position.

    Quote

    The pale sword came shivering through the air.

    Ser Waymar met it with steel.

    The pale sword, like Waymar’s sword, was also trembling or shivering and they met in the air. I believe Waymar saw the Other Waymar’s sword high in the air and saw it as his challenge being excepted. So both swords were high in the air and both sets of eyes fixed on the other’s sword.

    Quote

    Royce checked a second blow, and a third, then fell back a step. Another flurry of blows, and he fell back again.

    Again and again the swords met

    Ser Waymar was panting from the effort now, his breath steaming in the moonlight…

    …the Other's danced with pale blue light.

    At this point every blow is accounted for with neither combatant gaining an advantage. Because the swords will always come together in the mirror.

    And then Waymar’s sword becomes white with frost as he is panting from effort and his breath steams in the moonlight. His sword is like a car windshield in moist cold air. The moisture will gather on a smooth cold surface and freeze.

    Then Waymar is bit through the ringmail beneath the arm. Will assumes it was the pale sword. What doesn’t happen here is a death blow. Waymar is pierced by an arrow from the man that was up against the rock earlier. Waymar’s sword action stops as he checks his wound; and so does the sword action of the pale sword. 
     

    Quote

    Then Royce's parry came a beat too late. The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow. Ser Waymar's fingers brushed his side. His moleskin glove came away soaked with red.

    Quick note: Waymar’s blood only “seemed” red as fire because of the Purkinje effect. Check this out here. The blood there is actually black. The point in me sharing that is that Will is an unreliable narrator. We can’t believe everything he sees; including the arrow he doesn’t see.

    And so when Will watches the next sword actions, he sees one action as a Waymar putting all his weight behind it and the Other Waymar swing as being lazy; but they are the exact same swing just different in Will’s mind because know Waymar is desperate.

    Quote

    and he came up snarling, lifting the frost-covered longsword with both hands and swinging it around in a flat sidearm slash with all his weight behind it. The Other's parry was almost lazy.

    When the blades touched, the steel shattered.

     

    And again the swords come together again, but this time the sword breaks and the stone shatters.

    This post has given all the actions of the duel. At minimum I believe it shows that it’s possible that Waymar is looking in a mirror. Notice how we never get a further description of the Other Waymar or the pale sword after the shattering. 
     

    Next, I’ll show you that the lone shard in Waymar’s left eye is frozen fire and I’ll explain the burning blue eye he has. And I hope you can see now that there’s no red in this scene.

  7. On 3/29/2023 at 12:38 PM, Frey family reunion said:

    The conversation about Black Mirrors makes me think of this passage:

    Black water and obsidian stone are common mediums for scrying. Galadriel and Frodo use water in the Lord of the Rings. I’ve long thought, “ Dance with me then” was an anagram for ‘enchanted white men’. 
     

    Also what do you think about Waymar’s initial pose? Do you think it looks like Luke Skywalker's pose on the original Star Wars poster with the lightsaber high over head? That’s how I picture it.
     

    Interestingly, there’s a  yoga sequence called the Dancing Warrior. And Waymar’s final pose, where Will thinks he looks like a boy, is a child’s pose with a variation of thread the needle.

    I love the quotes that you’ve found. I need to reread those. Thanks for your thoughts I have more thoughts I plan on posting here. But I want to reread those chapters where you’ve quoted from:)

     

  8. On 3/29/2023 at 11:55 AM, Melifeather said:

    I think you’ve misread me. The white walker’s armor was reflective. Royce was dressed all in black like all men of the Watch. 

    You’re right, I think I misread you. Are you seeing how it can be a black mirror? Or are saying the “white shadow’s” armor was reflective and thus different from Waymar’s gleaming ringmail with all black?

    Quote

    Will (and Royce) next saw the rest of the white walkers walk out from amongst the trees. If we're to understand that Royce is facing a mirror, then the numbers don't match up. Shouldn't there only be a total of three white walkers to mirror Royce, Will, and Gared?

    Will first saw pale shapes gliding through the wood. The pales shapes are moonlight unknowingly coming from the hilt of Waymar’s own sword. That sword, with gems in its hilt, was the wrong sword for a night ranging. And yes unknowingly Royce is facing a mirror.

    The text doesn’t say it but Waymar hears a noise and becomes disoriented. He loses track of where he is and is surprised when he sees his own reflection. 
     

    The noise he hears is from the dirk that Will unknowingly drops. That’s why Waymar suddenly becomes wary and starts turning in circles. We know that Waymar  becomes disoriented because he calls up to Will, knowing he’s in the sentinel tree, so he can regain his bearings.

    The timing is perfect, the moon’s position and Waymar directly in front of the mirror. Will and Gared are never in front of the mirror at the right moment. Black mirrors just look like black stone without the right lighting.

    On 3/29/2023 at 5:57 AM, Melifeather said:

    We've debated many times over the total number of white walkers. Depending upon how it's interpreted there were as few as 6 and as many as 8. I happen to believe the number corresponds with the wildling group Will found earlier and that they had died in order to produce the white walkers then their bodies shuffled away as wights.

    I believe what Will originally sees are the watchers. And the watchers are the children of the forest. When Will saw earlier they were meditating. They weren’t sleeping or dead. There are six children that we know of (Ash, Black Knife, Coals, Leaf, Scales, Snowylocks) And I believe one other person that is a seer in front of the mirror. The seer and his reflection were likely the couple up against the rock. So my count is seven. (This parallels the tower of joy scene)

     

    On 3/29/2023 at 5:57 AM, Melifeather said:

    You suggest a "great-rock" as being the mirror. The scene is described as being over a ridge and beside a stream. The wildlings built a lean-to against "the rock" which could be interpreted a single big rock or it could be the rock of the next ridge. But there is an important detail here. The rock and lean-to are covered with snow. It'd be pretty hard for that rock to be a reflective mirror if it was covered up with snow.

    And yes, I too see the “great rock” as a single big rock but not part of another ridge. But the detail you mention……  best maybe to point out the parallel scene in the next chapter. 
     

    Quote

    Half-buried in bloodstained snow, a huge dark shape slumped in death. Ice had formed in its shaggy grey fur, and the faint smell of corruption clung to it like a woman's perfume. (AGOT Bran I)

    It’s a snow drift up against a dark haired frozen mother direwolf with a branch-like stag antler in it. The snowdrift would parallel the snow-covered lean-to made with a dead stag skin and a dead branch against a dark obsidian stone. And the fact that it’s a frozen bloody dark shape lines up with frozen fire. The pups might parallel the rain of needles.

     

    On 3/29/2023 at 5:57 AM, Melifeather said:

    Will noted that they left their weapons behind on the ground. If they were meditating, why leave the weapons when they stopped? Will stated that he saw men and women, but no children. Children of the Forest are small in stature so if there were any Children laying on the ground then Will would have thought he saw children.

    The only weapon mentioned again is the valuable axe. I’ve wondered if the children weren’t baiting the trap here. (knowing Waymar would spot himself in the mirror). Were the children using it to carve the mirror? Was this Craster’s axe that lost its bite? Not sure. 
     

    If the axe also paralleled something in the Bran 1 mother direwolf scene perhaps it’s the axe that chopped down the ironwood tree in the Gared beheading scene. The trees who’s wood built the ironwood bridge in the mother direwolf scene. Not sure.

    And yes the children are small but relative to what. They were likely the same size and laying down. And they don’t look like children. But they did wear delicate armor like the watchers. And they spoke the true tongue.

  9. 3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

    There is a precedent for GRRM writing about creatures using mirrors to slip into other dimensions. The story he wrote is titled The Skin Trade. It also featured werewolves (skin changers) who, if I remember correctly, used the moonlight to transform. Mirrors were more like conduits to reflect the moonlight.

    Sweetsunway has been writing extensively (on and off this forum) about ice magic and mirrors. Here's a link to her theory regarding the white walkers: LINK

    This is great I’m excited to check it out. Thanks for taking the time:)

     

    3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

    When Will saw the first white walker he thought of it as a "shadow" before going on with a full description as being "tall" and "gaunt" and "hard" with "flesh pale as milk". The armor reflected the forest. (not Royce) Will could see the reflections of the snow, of shadows from the trees, as well as the deep grey-green color of the trees. 

    I believe the reference to a “white shadow” is a nice little hint from Martin about the scrying Will witnessed earlier. A “shadow” in the foreground, in front of Waymar, foreshadowing. But it can also mean that his every move in the duel is foreshadowed. And or this fight could parallel the fight in the next chapter that doesn’t make it onto the pages between the stag and the mother direwolf. Regardless, there seems to be some intent at foreshadowing:)

    And Waymar, at night, bathed in moonlight would appear “pale as milk” and “gaunt”. —“Hard”, well it is a stone mirror.— Also, picture the Other’s blade. It almost vanishes when seen edge-on. That would make sense because edge-on it’s not reflective. His armor is ringmail and would appear wavy like patterns of moonlight on water. Take a look at this
     

    But if Waymar’s armor is mirror-like, science says, “if you observe the reflections from two opposing mirrors, you will realize that the image well become greener with each reflection. This is because mirrors usually reflect light from the green spectrum more than other colors. So when a mirror is reflecting color, that color contains reflections, from the green spectrum more than other color spectrums. As such, as other colors fade away gradually the only visible color remaining will green.I do you like the idea of infinity mirrors. However, I don’t see Waymar’s armor being mirror-like. The only mirror-like thing is the black mirror reflecting the things you listed. This would also make the “pale sword” in essence, made of obsidian.

    And I think I can show you, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the shard in Waymar’s left eye is obsidian or frozen fire.

    Check out “Is It Possible To Make A Black Mirror?” on You Tube. I don’t know how to post it here for you. It’s from The Action Lab. This is the magic of the children of the forest. 
     

    The fire pit warmed the great rock and provided the 

     

     

     

  10. 12 hours ago, Melifeather said:

    Shadows are drawn from humans. We understand this, because Stannis became weaker each time Melisandre drew from his life-force. An interesting question about shadows comes to mind. Are shadows inherently evil? This is what I think your idea is really proposing. Are the shadows a manifestation of the evil that dwells inside us? Is evil kept in check by our sense of what's right and what's wrong, by love of family, by our ideas of justice, or by honor? Once that evil shadow is extracted and is sentient, it has no restraints upon it. The ones drawn from Stannis performed evil deeds. One even killed his brother Renly which I think the living Stannis would have found difficult to do. He loved his brother and he voiced his regret when he talked about the peach:

    I really love this!
     

    However there’s some strong evidence that the shard in Waymar’s left eye is frozen fire. And the the white shadow mirrors every move Waymar makes. And the “wildlings” that Will saw weren’t dead or sleeping. They were meditating. The eight “wildlings” were six children of the forest and a greenseer (the couple) up against the “great rock”. The rock is the mirror.

    Most of the evidence is in the subtext. 
     

    Consider this and let me try to answer your questions….

    Waymar, in the all black wardrobe of the night watch, is turning in a circle in front of a backdrop of a snow-covered ridge (Yin); and a white shadow emerging from the dark of the wood, is compared to a pale shape (pail shape: circle). (Yang)——Yin/Yang

    It’s a meta view of the scene. 

    Then to begin the scene we have a shadow in the foreground in front of Royce. ( Foreshadowing) I believe this leads to the idea of scrying.

    1. Scrying is fortunetelling and tries to discover hidden knowledge or future events, especially by means of a black mirror. Black Mirrors are made of obsidian or frozen fire.
       
      The TV show even uses the theta symbol at the end of the prologue scene to hint at this idea. Theta brain waves deal with the dream state or meditation.
       
      I think the main reason why people miss some of the clues is because they have a hard time breaking away from Will’s point of view. 

      For example, did you notice that Will’s dirk fell from his mouth? First time through the reading most people don’t. It’s not explicitly in the text.

      Quote

      He whispered a prayer to the nameless gods of the wood, and slipped his dirk free of its sheath. He put it between his teeth to keep both hands free for climbing. The taste of cold iron in his mouth gave him comfort………..Will opened his mouth to call down a warning, and the words seemed to freeze in his throat. (The dirk falls out and we never read about it.)

      Why? Because Martin is telling us that Will is unaware of what is happening. From his POV he doesn’t realize it himself. But it does have consequences. (That is for another discussion)

       

  11. On 3/28/2023 at 8:19 AM, oldbus said:

    It is what Will (up a tree) sees that is described and it is clearly not a reflection of Waymar in an obsidian mirror.  Will would almost certainly mention if an obsidian mirror as big as a person existed, and the text just doesn't support that idea.

    He describes it early on——It was the “great rock”. But when he returns and is up the tree; he doesn’t realize what he’s looking at. But he lost his bearings when he was rushed up the tree by Waymar. "Up the tree. Be quick about it. Look for a fire.", he’d commanded. 
     

    Will became lost amongst the needles and it was dark in the woods. Picture looking for a large mirror in the dark of the wood. He only sees it when Waymar steps in front of it. And then doesn’t recognize what it is.

    ”the text” does support the idea. If you carefully read the duel you’ll notice the moves all match up. You can read it or I can break it down for you:)

  12. 7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

    Thanks, but no. That's a little too far off the deep end, even for me.

    C’mon John. I asked somebody what they saw when they looked into Waymar’s eyes and they said…

       

    Quote

    Blue?

     

    Thanks for asking:)

    If definitely appears like it. But that’s the intent. 

    When looking at Ser Waymar Royce, the lead protagonist in the prologue, it’s important to keep in mind the point of view. Everything we see, hear, and know about Waymar comes from Will. Even our feelings toward Waymar begins with Will. For example, notice how Will addresses Waymar all throughout the prologue. He refers to him using the diminutive term “lordling”, something less than or younger than a lord. Eight times the term is used; but only once out loud and it’s Gared that uses it then. Will only ever thinks it. He mostly says, “m’lord” out loud. And once, he uses both syllables and says “my lord”; but he’s feeling insolent and being sarcastic. It’s obvious that Will doesn’t respect Waymar and thinks he’s too inexperienced to be in command. The point I’m making is we’re seeing what Will thinks he sees. And he thinks he’s seeing Waymar reanimated.

    It’s similar to how people believe in ghosts. It’s the easiest explanation for something they don’t understand and they don’t have to think. It’s the lazy answer. Martin seemingly gives a hat tip to Vic Tandy, a British engineer, by placing a shivering sword in the chapter. Vic Tandy gives a plausible reason for ghost sightings. Check him out in Wikipedia. Here

    In similar fashion to Vic Tandy, we find the answers for what Will thinks he’s seeing by taking a look at the sword that was shivering just moments before.

    In (ADWD, a Jon XII chapter) when Jon, watching the wildlings pass through the Wall at Castle Black, sees a man produce a broken hilt with three sapphires. Can this broken hilt be proof? Proof that Waymar is still alive, possibly. Did the man have an injured right eye? At this point we can still only speculate.  But the hilt certainly brings to mind the hilt Will snatched up.

    Waymar’s longsword is described having more than one, quite likely 3, jewels in its hilt.

    Now consider the “Blue” that you mention. It describes the pupil burning blue. This matches what appears to be the other (pun intended) set of blue eyes in the chapter. They were “a blue that burned like ice”. Three burning blue eyes. And in both cases Waymar’s sword hilt is in close proximity.

    Taking a closer look:

    On Waymar’s hilt the jewels, described as glittering in the moonlight, are quite likely the cause of the pale shapes that Will sees from up in the sentinel. His gems are catching and throwing light.  Certainly “a blue that burned like ice” would be a good way to describe sapphires in the moonlight.

    Now consider some of the wordplay Martin uses to hint at these thoughts.

      Quote

    The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope.

    The eyes were “fixed” on the longsword that had moonlight running cold along the metal. So literally Martin has Will think that the burning blue eyes, that we suspect are gems, fixed on the longsword with jewels in the hilt that we suspect are sapphires. Seems like a good hint, thanks George.
     

    And like the horses at the ironwood tree, these eyes were guarded (guarded: fixed on the guard of the hilt) and the third, bigger gem, was tied or fixed well away from the others, on the pommel or lower limb. And like Waymar’s horse, it was the wrong mount for a ranging. This comparison of the hilt and the jewels to a tree and horses isn’t just my idea. Martin does it also when he describes the hilt “like a tree struck by lightning”. Not coincidentally the pale sword, partly responsible for breaking Waymar’s sword, in the duel, is described as dancing with pale blue light. The main point here is the arrangement of the jewels on Waymar’s hilt.

    The two on the guard line up with the eyes of the gaunt, pale, milky white flesh of the shadow’s face in front of Waymar. If you’ll recall, Waymar paused sword, trembling on high, at the same time the Other halts. From Will’s point of view in the sentinel, the glittering jewels and the burning blue eyes line up perfectly. In perfect contrast, Will went up the tree to look for fire and found something that burned like Ice. This obviously burns into his memory. Because the next time he sees a jewel he thinks the same thing.

    Note the sequence of the actions when Will finds the hilt a few feet away. He is looking around warily when he picks it up, not looking at it. And then Waymar shows up just as he is starting to consider the broken hilt. Will doesn’t realize it but he is holding the hilt, pommel up, between him and Waymar’s face. Will then closed his eyes to pray as the broken hilt fell fell from nerveless fingers.

    The blue eye is a sapphire gem in the pommel of Waymar’s broken sword hilt.

    This gemstone fixed into Waymar’s sword contrasts the shard transfixing Waymar’s  left eye from the other sword.

    What do you see when you look into the left eye?

    The End

     

     

     

    I won’t push this anymore. But I think I make a good starting point here.

  13. On 3/22/2023 at 3:20 AM, three-eyed monkey said:
    Quote

    Maester Luwin had taught him his stars as a boy in Winterfell; he had learned the names of the twelve houses of heaven and the rulers of each;

    The dozen companions were twelve rulers of ancient houses. In the context of the time the tale was set, the rulers of the ancient houses were kings in the hundred kingdoms of the First Men.

    Another clue to this comes from a conversation between Anguy and Lem.

    Quote

    Well, here's to His Grace," Anguy the Archer called out cheerfully, lifting a toast. "Seven save the king!"

    "All twelve o' them," Lem Lemoncloak muttered.

    The dozen companions were twelve rulers of ancient houses, kings of the kingdoms of First Men, who all died, one by one. The fact that they are described as companions suggests that they were counterparts or peers of the Last Hero, meaning that he too must have been a king.

    In summary, the Others came, the kings died one-by-one. Then the last hero lost his honor. Next, he lost his ability to tell a lie from the truth. And finally, he broke his oath.

    In a previous post, I related Gared to a drag component of a casting mold. 
     

    Here I’d like to present the wordplay to a cope, the other half of a casting mold, and a horse. Combining “horse” and “cope” we get horscope. Horscope contains the 12 ancient house of our universe in the zodiac signs.

    During Gared’s  execution there were 20 in all. Eight surrounded by twelve. Like the solar system.

    Like Gared’s life outlined by his 12 vows. He pledged his life and his honor. Gared’s life (drag component); Horse is honor ( cope component)

  14. On 3/22/2023 at 3:20 AM, three-eyed monkey said:

    What this suggests to me is that the Last Hero’s companions, who died one by one, did not die at the hands of the Others but rather by the hands of each other, just as Euron killed Balon or Stannis killed Renly. As Maester Aemon said:

    Waymar, a last hero parallel, also fought himself. He had been standing in front of a black obsidian mirror.

  15. On 3/22/2023 at 3:20 AM, three-eyed monkey said:

    The Horse.

    Let’s begin with the horse. We are told the Last Hero’s horse died. And what is his horse? We need only ask Jaime.

    Quote

    "Your word of honor?" Ser Brynden raised an eyebrow. "Do you even know what honor is?"

    A horse.

    I’m seeing lots of parallels in the first two chapters with TLH. (Horses, dogs, companions, broken sword) One of the thing I’ve been trying to symbolically puzzle out is the symbolism of horses. In AGOT Prologue and Bran I Gared, an oathbreaker, is described as ragged and greasy. He is bound hand and feet to a Wall. He’s is taken to the center of a square to be beheaded.

    In metallurgy, a drag is used in casting to form for the lower portion of a mold. “Gared” backwards is a homophone for “drag”. A drag is filled with sand and a sword can be pressed into it to make an impression. The sand is mixed with oil so it maintain the shape of the impression. The sand with that negative impression can be said to be ragged by definition. Thus and inverse impression in the sand can be said to be in a square holdfast with ragged and greasy sand.
     

    And the inverse of oathbreaker, Gared, is oathkeeper. Oathbreaker would be the negative impression of Oathkeeper.

    Ice, is made up of both Oathkeeper and Widows Wail. And Gared is indirectly compared to the height of Ice. Ice is about six feet long. But was wide across as a man’s hand. Horses and Time also use hands to measure them.
     

    Also, Gared was dragged to the ironwood stump by Fat Tom a homophone for “fathom” which is six feet; and Desmond, wordplay for “mond” “Des” or Mondays or Moon day, and point in time. The breath of man and horse had just mingled before they cut Gared down from the Wall.

    Gared was beheaded and a horse had to be restrained to keep from bolting. Bran was told to keep his horse well in hand.

    And finally, the last command given to Gared was to guard the horses and he was dragged two guardsmen. And the breath of man and horse mingled.

    Honor and Oathkeeper seem to be both words of honor. And Ice is a sword of honor. ….connection?

  16. On 9/8/2022 at 2:10 AM, Black Crow said:

    Separately, we've discussed the nature of White Walkers and come up with a pretty solid theory that they may be Wargs, released by death and instead of being sucked into a second life with their familiars as happens to ordinary skinchangers, they can create new bodies of snow and ice and cold. 

    What if Waymar is simply seeing his own shadow and the six children of the forest are the watchers. 
     

    Waymar, looking into an obsidian black mirror, sees his own white shadow.

  17. On 2/15/2022 at 8:29 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

    Waymar's sword was drawn before he even laid eyes on the Other. Other walked with his weapon drawn, yes, but he was walking towards a man who was brandishing a sword. So the authority you are talking about would be the Other and not Waymar.

    They both drew their sword at the exact same time:)

  18. On 2/17/2022 at 12:39 PM, Castellan said:
    My take is the Other emerges to size him up. When Waymar raises and thus displays his sword the Other 'watches the moonlight running coldly along the metal" and  for a minute Will dares to hope because he sees the Other is considering his sword - he hopes with fear. But the Other, and his 'twins' see that this is not a flaming sword and proceed to kill him. They are not showing honour but the caution that an animal or a human would show before attacking a new foe. 
     
    The prologue is a prologue to the whole series and shows the Others emerging and the failure of Waymar because he is not the last hero or Azor Ahai - his sword is made of plain cold steel. The Other's sword is made of some unearthly icy substance.

    The Other does emerge; but at the same time Waymar emerges from the white of the new-fallen snow from the ridge behind him. Waymar steps in front of an obsidian black mirror. He sees a white shadow of himself and challenges himself. The challenge appears to be excepted, thus the pause, and he dances with his shadow. 
     

    The watcher are the children of the forest who had been; not dead; not sleeping; but meditating near the black mirror. One was scrying. 
     

    Neither Waymar nor Will actually die.

  19. On 10/27/2022 at 1:43 PM, Mourning Star said:

    It is perhaps a very basic answer, but I think I have to go with:

    Ser Waymar met him bravely. "Dance with me then." He lifted his sword high over his head, defiant. His hands trembled from the weight of it, or perhaps from the cold. Yet in that moment, Will thought, he was a boy no longer, but a man of the Night's Watch.

    Ironically, Waymar—standing in front of the “great rock” of obsidian —-is starring into a black mirror at himself. Seeing the white shadow he bravely fights until his sword breaks and a shard, of frozen fire,  from the rock pierces his eye.

  20. On 1/19/2023 at 9:33 AM, Phylum of Alexandria said:

    Of course, GRRM needs readers to understand that supernatural powers really do exist in ASOIAF, and so we get an early glimpse of the Others and the animated corpse of Waymar Royce right at the start of the series. Yet afterwards, such moments are few and far between. And even that AGOT Prologue is structured around Waymar’s certainty about naturalistic explanations for what Will reported, a stance that we soon see pervades Westeros, largely thanks to the maesters.

    To your point, reality is based on perception. And in the scene with Waymar left eye bleeding with blood red as fire and the other eye burning blue like ice we are lead to believe that he has been transformed into some other worldly being. In truth, Will forgets he is holding the broken hilt of Waymar’s bejeweled hilt in his nerveless fingers pommel side up. There’s a sapphire that matches the other two sapphires he saw fixed on the guard of the hilt when Waymar held it on high to begin a duel with his own shadow. 
     

    The white shadow he fought was his own in an obsidian black mirror, “the great rock”. The children of the forest laugh at him when a piece or shard of frozen fire breaks away and lands in his eye. The children had been meditating, not dead, not sleeping, scrying.

    But this is the beauty of Martin’s writing. We to start believing in ghostly beings.

    In fact, it was Vic Tandy’s shivering sword, just like here, that helped debunk the myth.

  21. On 3/23/2023 at 8:00 AM, John Suburbs said:

    What happened to the wildlings that Will saw initially? Most people jump quickly to, the Others killed them. But if so, how? There were no signs of a battle, no blood, nothing disturbed, weapons casually set aside, even the far-eyes was just dead in her tree. If the Others can kill without violence, why did they use violence against Waymar? And why would they kill the wildlings, march them off as wights, then return to the camp?

    Will thought the were frozen to death; Waymar thought they were asleep but they were meditating. They weren’t wildlings; they were the children of the forest.

    There were no Others in the Prologue.

    There was no violence committed against Waymar. Waymar was in a sword fight with his own reflection.

    On 3/23/2023 at 8:00 AM, John Suburbs said:

    Who raised Waymar, and why? Again, the quick answer is the Others. But did they? After killing Waymar, the Others just melt away into the forest and Waymar lays there dead for hours, "while the moon crept slowly across the black sky." The Others are long gone by the time Will climbs down and only then does Waymar rise. So why would they wait there all this time, just out of sight, only to make their new wight kill Will? And why wouldn't they use their wildling wights to kill all three of them?

    Waymar never died. He was simply injured. 

    These are simple answers that certainly need more explanation. However, it requires a deep dive into the text. If you’re interested let me know. Here’s a start.

    Here’s the beginning to a piece that begins to o explain it all.:

    Fire and Ice”, the very antithesis of the entire series, is literally starring us, directly, in the eyes and most can’t see it. And when you do finally see it you’ll realize it’s just the beginning. But if you hope to see it your’re going to have to first get out of your own head and start seeing everything from another perspective. For some that’s difficult.

  22. Today I got into great discussion about several parallel scenes. The primary scene I was interested in was the Prologue of AGOT. 
     

    In Ned’s fever dream it’s seven vs. three. The obvious parallel with those scenes are the 3 NW men(Gared, Waymar, and Will) and (Ser Gerold Hightower, Ser Authur Dayne, Ser Oswell Whent).

    But what about the seven?

    Today I think I’ve figured it out. The seven are a Greenseer and 6 Cotf. 
     

    The seer, the couple sitting up against a rock, staring at his reflection in “the great rock”.

    The Cotf, are the watchers. The ones that emerged from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them… four…five… The twin however is the one in the ironwood. 

    The one in the ironwood, is the far-eyes also a watcher.

    When Will first saw them they were all meditating, not fallen or sleeping.

    The Kevan Lannister death scene help to confirm the Cotf in the Waymar dueling scene. 
     

    The mother direwolf scene also help to identify the Cotf in Waymar’s scene.

    Ghost would be the white haired Cotf

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