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Mister Smikes

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  1. We have no indication either way. If the marriage was in January or mid February, then the conception was probably after the marriage. If the Marriage was mid-March or later, then the conception was probably before the marriage. But we don't know the date of the marriage. There is no indication he was conceived afterwards either. You are making a fallacious argument from ignorance. The textual evidence directly suggests that various people, including Aegon IV and Egg, believe or suspect that Daeron is Aemon's son and not Aegon's son. Nobody in a position to know is ever said explicitly to believe otherwise. Naerys has never been known to express an opinion on the topic. The only contrary evidence is that Daeron is accepted as Aegon's legal son by law and custom by virtue of being born after the marriage and into the marriage. But that is merely how the world works. As far as I can tell, not even the singers, who celebrate the love of Aemon and Naerys, seem to believe that Morgil's charges are true. But they still believed that Aemon and Naerys were lovers in some sense. The position of the singers on Daeron's parentage is unclear. And you never answered my questions. Why did Aemon call himself the "Knight of Tears"? What loss was he mourning, if not the loss of his love, Naerys?
  2. Nothing weird about it at all. It is not as though he had no expectations. Wow! You just keep insisting on this straw man. Dude, I don't think she committed adultery. And I don't think she ever lied to him either, since that appears to be your backup argument. He still cared about his comfort and survival. "When you play the game of thrones ...". But no, he did not care much what became of the kingship after he was dead. He did legitimize his bastards though LOL, do you think they insidiously hid from him the results of the DNA testing? What lies do you think they told him? It's what I'm talking about. If you disagree with me, please focus on what we disagree about. It's the only possibility as far as I'm concerned. The alternative is ruled out for reasons we already agree on. So now you're going to change your tune and argue it is possible after all? Unraveled how? Their father ordered them to marry. And there is no indication that Naerys ever lied to her father, to Aegon, or to anyone else, about being a virgin on her wedding night. Traditionally, not being a virgin on your wedding night is not even grounds for an annulment, much less grounds for an execution. That's absolutely wacko. You have absolutely no idea how religious people think. Baelor had a few screws loose, but that does not mean you can invent any wacko idea you want, ascribe it to Baelor, and assume he believed it. There is no indication that Aemon ever violated his kingsguard vows, or that Naerys ever violated her marriage vows. There is no basis for your assumption that Baelor would have been shocked shocked shocked to find out that neither of them were sinless Virgin Maries before they took their respective vows. Baelor believed in forgiveness. What punishment did he inflict on Daena the Defiant? And Aegon would have alot of balls to come before King Baelor, and say "Oh holy King, please execute my sister-wife. I have found out she was once a sinner, before we married." Aegon's own sinful, sensual life was infamous. Viserys DID punish Naerys severely. He forced her to marry Aegon, thereby separating her from Aemon forever. No-one was betrayed or wronged here, as far as we know. There were no secrets and no lies, as far as we know. Naerys never claimed to love Aegon. She cried at the bedding; so her feelings were pretty clear. She never claimed to anyone, as far as we know, that she did not love Aemon. Aemon never claimed he did not love Naerys. Aegon, on his side, never claimed to love Naerys. Aegon and Aemon quarreled at the wedding and Aemon may have made no secret about how he felt, as far as we know. . Naerys was not married yet, and Aemon was not on the Kingsguard yet. You don't need to be a virgin to get married, and you don't need to be a virgin to join the kingsguard. My position is that it is false that they had an affair after the marriage, but it may well be true that they had an affair before the marriage. You argued that an affair in the 170s and 180s marriage was impossible, and I already agreed with you. What, you want to backtrack now? Just so you can argue with a straw man? Stay focused. If you disagree with me, focus on what we disagree about -- the affair in 153, Morgil's charges are false. And of course it is only speculation that he is the king's mouthpiece, though that speculation is plausible enough. He hints that he believes Daeron is not his own son, and that pretty much amounts to the same thing. This of course depends on precisely when the wedding was. But if the wedding was on March 12 or later in the year and/or if Daeron was overdue, then there are only 2 options: Either Daeron was conceived on the honeymoon or was conceived before the wedding. He is the Heir Apparent because of where he stands in the line of succession. So why didn't he? Whatever his reasons, he obviously did not like him. These are stupid arguments. And you yourself just argued that Aegon did not care a damn about the kingship after he was gone. And earlier, he was too irresponsible and selfish to give much thought to whatever would happen after he died. LOL, no. You don't get to execute your wife for not being a virgin on your wedding night. He did kill Naerys ... in childbirth. He killed her by insisting on more children. And it is not clear he survived her very long, and he may have been very ill by that time. Selfish, irresponsible people tend to assume they have more time to put their affairs in order than they actually do.
  3. Maybe. But if you are "landed", you can build a house on your lands, and raise family there. And my guess would be that that House is the only "House Hasty" that exists.
  4. @Lord Varys: Also, why did Aemon dub himself the "Knight of Tears"? What loss was he mourning?
  5. Has bad headaches. Follows orders. Gets mad if you steal his toys.
  6. Well, we don't know his exact motivation. There may have been a mix of motives, and he was certainly a cruel man. But even a peasant tend to want a male heir, and a family consisting of children that are actually their own. That is perfectly normal and not "weird speculation". Doing things for for the sheer hell of being evil, however, is not normal, and GRRM is pretty much on record that he does not like to write that kind of villain because he does not consider them realistic. And Aegon's interest in Daeron's parentage did seem to increase after he became king, which makes sense, since the kingship was something he could not simply dispose of by will without causing problems. There is no death penalty for pre-marital fornication. Neither Baelor I nor Viserys II would have stood by and permitted the murders of Aemon and Naerys. King Baelor was protective of Naerys; and King Viserys would not have been happy about his firstborn murdering his other 2 children. Or maybe you are forgetting that I am not suggesting Naerys is guilty of adultery or treason. Aegon himself never seems to have believed this. His suspicions were only about Daeron his firstborn, never about Daenerys. And I would guess that one reason he was happy to keep Naerys as his wife is that he was reasonably sure that any children born to Naerys (after Daeron) would be his. Even after his accession to the throne, Aegon is believed to have been held back by his fear of the Dragonknight. But, in the end, neither Aemon nor Naerys survived his reign. But he has nothing in particular to avenge here. The problem, in this case, is not that Aemon and Naerys betrayed him after the marriage. It is merely his suspicion that Daeron is not his. You are arguing against the text her. We are told Aegon did not want Daeron as his heir, but feared the consequences of disinheriting him. Of course, it is conceivable that Daeron really was Aegon's son, and Aegon's real problem (whatever he may have said) was simply that he did not like Daeron. But you are presenting this as an argument against the suggestion that Daeron was not his son. In fact, Aegon suspecting that Daeron was not his son is perfectly consistent with what we know. Witnesses to prove what accusations? Pre-marital sex? What would the witnesses say? That Aemon and Naerys were inseparable companions before the marriage? Would a maester need to tell him that Targaryen siblings who are very close have a distressing tendency to get the hots for each other? I'm sure some witnesses at the tournament noticed that Aemon named Naerys queen of love and beauty. There may be other clues than this, but they would be subtle ones. Yes he would. There were no credible charges of adultery or treason. But it is still plausible that Daeron is not (genetically speaking) the son of Aegon. Irrelevant. The question is one of pre-marital sex. Which can be explained by a moment of weakness and passion between two horny teenagers. He joined the kingsguard after Naerys married Aegon. This parallels Bonifer, who swore off other women after Rhaella's marriage to Aerys. You have this bizarre idea that pious people never commit sin. No. That's not the hypothesis under discussion. The hypothesis under discussion was that Daeron was conceived before the marriage. Obviously there was no adultery or treason, as I keep telling you. Hmmf. How to have a conversation with one like you? But no, I'm not saying the scenarios are identical, which seems to be your objection.
  7. @Lord Varys: Aegon IV was not satisfied with the male heir Naerys gave him, and wanted a second male heir. He was determined that Naerys would give him this second male heir, or at least die trying so he could take a second wife. Aegon IV died before either of these things could happen. Had he been given a second male heir, he might have disinherited the first. As it was, he legitimized his bastards on his deathbed, suggesting he may have been moving in this direction anyway. You say Aegon had cynical reasons for suspecting Daeron was not his own, but neglect to mention that it is also suggested that Aegon had various cynical reasons for not disinheriting him - namely that his throne would not be secure if he took such a step. Seems to me that these alleged cynical motives cancel each other out, so that, on balance, this was an honest suspicion on his part. Most people have a natural interest in sex. Nothing you say implies Naerys is an exception. A religious temperament in no way implies immunity to healthy desire, nor even sin and temptation. Baelor the Blessed, after all, seems to have lusted after his sisters, which seems to be a Targaryen weakness. Also, while I believe Naerys' religious sensibilities were real, she also had special reason for her to ask permission to become a septa -- namely that she did not want to be forced to marry Aegon (or anyone else she did not love). Her lack of interest in sex with Aegon IV may have had something to do with him being Aegon IV. If this were not enough, a maester told after Daeron's birth that another childbirth might kill her. Now her motive, besides not liking Aegon IV, was that she did not want to die. "Live together as brother and sister" is merely an English expression (in this context a Westerosi expression) that functions as a more reserved and polite way of saying "live together without fucking". Her use of such a euphemistic expression is evidently consistent with her character, but not particularly apt in context of Targaryen sibling incest traditions, an irony pointed out by Aegon IV. Aegon IV and Naerys are, after all, married siblings, which makes this expression inapt for reasons that have nothing to do with whether or not she also had sex with her brother Aemon before the marriage. But I don't think GRRM wants us to know for sure, one way or the other, whether Aemon is Daeron's real father. However, he does directly and deliberately suggest the POSSIBILITY that Aemon is Daeron's father. He then proceeds to draw numerous parallels between the Naerys situation and the Rhaella situation. These parallels might be a sly clue, even if some of the parallels are only to the Naerys of song, or the Naerys of rumor, and not the Naerys of history. GRRM is very sly about providing clues about Bonifer and Rhaella. For instance, when Barristan discusses their mutual love in DANCE, Bonifer's name is not even mentioned. Rather, the reader is forced to piece this together with a clue from a Jaime chapter in FEAST. Most readers would never put these clues together in the Wiki of Ice and Fire did not help them. This is a bit too deliberately sly and subtle for me to assume it means nothing and is going nowhere. I don't expect us ever to find out for sure, once way or another, whether Aemon was the real father of Daeron. It is more likely that we may get an answer to the question of whether Aerys was the father of Rhaegar. And that question is likely tied up with the mystery of the events at Summerhall. If Rhaegar was supposed to unite the lines of Aerys and Rhaella, but did not, then this might have put a fly in the magical ointment of whatever Aegon V was attempting that day.
  8. Nah, I've already made up my mind here. fAegon is the real son of Doran Martell, protected by his mother Mellario of Norvos / Septa Lemore. Ok, let's play with this one. Offhand, I would say no, because where would the dragon heritage come from? But lately I have been considering that children of Rickard Stark, and Lyanna in particular, might have Targ heritage, and this might help explain Lyanna's striking beauty. One clue for me was that Rickard married Lady Stark, his cousin, so his children would not necessarily need to be his own to have the Stark look to some extent. Another clue, in the World Book, was that Lord Rickard Stark was at Court during Aerys' randy period, suggesting the possibility that his wife may have been with him. And we know Aerys had a thing for other men's wives. If we push this idea a little further, it may be that Ned was also a child of Aerys. And if Ashara were also a child off Aerys (she is also old enough to have been conceived during Aerys' randy period), it may be that there was dragon blood on both sides. That said, I don't see much support for this idea. No. Edric Dayne is too young. Don't have any bright ideas at the moment. But I once composed a list of children born at or around Robert's Rebellion, to be used for "make-your-own-baby-swap-theory" purposes. Perhaps I should try to dig it up or recreate it.
  9. Well, i can suggest answers to those questions. It is significant that Aerys be Rhaegar's father (in one sense), because that makes Rhaegar (or one of his children), the rightful king in the established line of succession. He was born into the marriage with (quite possibly) no adultery, making him "legitimate" by the standards of the Faith of the Seven and the customs of the realm. He has the blessings of the gods. It is significant that Aerys is NOT Rhaegar's father (in another sense), because no-one wants to take after the Mad King, just as no-one wants to take after Aegon the Unworthy. It is maybe significant that Aerys is NOT Rhaegar's father (in this second sense), because that may mean that Rhaegar does not unite the lines of Aerys and Rhaella, and cannot fulfill the woods witch prophesy. Curiously, Rhaegar does eventually conclude that he cannot be TPTWP. So what does Rhaegar do? Well, he goes and seeks out as his bride Elia of Dorne, a choice not approved by his father. Why Elia? Well, Ellia was born "prematurely" in Dorne some months after her mother left Kings Landing suddenly in order to rush home to her husband. It is hard to avoid the suspicion that Elia was conceived in King's Landing, and that Elia's birth was maybe not quite so "premature" as supposed. Hence, Rhaegar may believe that his union with Elia unites the lines of Aerys and Rhaella, which means that his son can be TPTWP, and his children the 3 heads of the dragon.
  10. Some further thoughts about whether the Naerys/Aemon rumors "appear to be false", with some further exploration of their parallels to the Rhaella/Bonifer situation. - Egg addresses Bloodraven as "cousin". If Egg's great grandpa is the Dragonknight, then Bloodraven is Egg's first cousin twice removed. If Egg's great grandpa is Aegon the Unworthy, then Bloodraven is Egg's great uncle. Egg's father, Maekar, named one of his sons "Aemon" before he got around to naming one of his sons "Aegon". - Naerys was forced by her father the king to marry her brother Aegon, who later became king. This parallels Rhaella being forced by her father Jahaerys II to marry Aerys, who later became king. - Naerys was rumored to love a tournament knight (paralleling Rhaellas rumored love for Bonifer). This rumored lover afterwards swore celibacy. - Naerys took comfort in her son Daeron because he was able to make her laugh. In this respect, Daeron takes after Aemon the Dragonknight, but not after Aegon the Unworthy. Aegon IV, after he became king, was known to voice the suspicion that Daeron was not his own. - Naerys gave birth to Daeron the same year as her marriage. Without knowing more about the timeline, we cannot rule out the possibility that Daeron was conceived before the marriage. Furthermore, it was a difficult birth, suggesting the possibility that Daeron was overdue (hence it would not necessarily be obvious that Daeron was conceived before the marriage). - Like Rhaenys, Naerys then suffered a string of reproductive failures (problems no doubt associated with incest). Aegon IV, despite his difficulty siring children with his lawful wife, had no difficulty siring children with other women. (This is not confirmed to be true of Aerys, but this is because his fondness for messing around with married ladies makes such situations ambiguous). - Like Rhaenys, Naerys was accused or suspected of infidelity and treason. Note that, if Daeron (or Rhaegar) was conceived before the marriage, Naerys (or Rhaella) would have been innocent. The accusation of treason is the only aspect of the rumors that, IMHO, "appears to be false". The singers are no doubt right that Naerys and Aemon loved each other.
  11. I don't like this kind if talk. The thread asks for opinions and I gave mine. If there was any confusion about whose opinions I was expressing, or what my opinion's were based on, I have done my best to clarify. Time to move on. They are obvious to me. May I humbly suggest you leave me to express my own opinions in my own words? You are perfectly free to disagree. Certainly, they were obvious, at least as possibilities, as things that occurred to me on first read. To me, it always seemed that AFFC ended on a cliffhanger, with Sam's life in danger. "'I'm Pate', said the other, like the pig boy.'" [DAH DAH DAH [ominous music]] Can I prove absolutely that Sam is about to be offed by a faceless man and his body dumped in a river on Marwyn's orders? No. As with many cliffhangers, he may turn out to be fine. But I am still surprised that so many regulars here are so oblivious to any possibility that Sam is any danger at all. Yes. And I haven't seen any coherent counterargument. For the present, let's just stick with my conclusion that "Marwyn and the Alchemist are in league", since that is what you are challenging as baseless. Any speculations beyond that are obviously going to be more tentative, and any predictions of the future I make are obviously only theories.. No reason, and this has nothing to do with my objection. That's absolutely ridiculous. Nothing could evoke more suspicion than allowing Pate to actually overhear the conversation. Marwyn is an archmaester. Pate is a failed novice, whose job is to change Margrave's diapers, because that's all he is good for. If Marwyn wants to be nice to the useless Pate, and show Pate glass candles like the charitable humanitarian he obviously is, I suppose he is free to do so, but Marwyn has absolute authority to order him away so he can talk privately with another person, or do anything else he wants to do, and he does not owe Pate any explanations whatsoever. Anyhow, Marwyn knew that Sam was coming, because of his glass candles, which is apparently why he sent the sand snake to intercept him. It was perfectly within his power to dismiss Pate before Sam arrived. Well, you acknowledge the association with Mirri and Qyburn. In addition, I also gave the fact that the first thing Marwyn did, after he finished his interrogation of Sam is to head for the Cinnamon Wind, where Sam left the books of lore, the pickled kingsblood corpse, and the kingsblood baby. Once could infer from this a certain level of interest. As for "motives to lie", Aemon (who we have reason to trust) wanted Sam to talk to the maesters of the Citadel, and Marwyn (who we have no reason to trust) wants, by his own admission, to stop Sam from talking to the maesters of the Citadel. Marwyn also spied on Sam using glass candles, and sent the sand snake to lie in wait for him. Nothing creepy about that, I guess. I'm happy to agree with you that magic does not necessarily go as expected. Moving on, I hope A rather nihilistic interpretation. GRRM has denied that his books are meant to be nihilistic, but who knows? Maybe that's just the sort of thing that a nihilist would say. "Shades of grey", as a metaphor for a blend of good and evil, is a meaningless concept if "black" and "white", as metaphors for good and evil, are also meaningless concepts. "The heart at war with itself" is also a meaningless concept if the choices characters make have no moral relevance. Anyhow, Marwyn is not a central POV character, and it is perfectly possible that he is simply a villain, like Ramsay Bolton and Littlefinger and Gregor Clegane and the Bloody Mummers. Sacrificing to queer gods sounds suspiciously like some kind of magic to me. Using glass candles to see afar, which Marwyn is doing, is also supposed to something that only sorcerers can do. I suppose your quibble will be that although he clearly studies dark sorcery, and clearly practices some kind of sorcery, I cannot prove that he practices DARK sorcery. Fair enough. You are playing divide and conquer with the clues. But it seems to me that, even if this is only a hint, and not absolute proof, it is a fairly obvious hint. If you want more, I guess you'll just have to wait for TWOW. Again, I am following the hints, and you are playing divide-and-conquer with the hints. And again, if you want absolute proof, you must wait for Winds of Winter. In the meantime, even if I cannot provide proof that he is a villain, I don't see any reason to trust him either. "Don't worry, Samwell. You don't have to worry about Maester Aemon's dying instructions. I, Archmaester Marwyn, am your new best buddy. Just sit back, relax, and let me handle everything. I've got everything under control."
  12. Well then, if that's the point, it is a very dubious example. The Black Goat is considered an aspect of the Many-Faced God, and the Black Goat definitely demands blood sacrifice, including (on special occasions) human sacrifice. Also, the faceless men consider their assassinations to be a sacrament to their god, and the distinction between that and "human sacrifice" seems more semantic than real. Also, their use of the dead faces of their victims looks suspiciously like it might be a kind of blood magic to me. But if your point is only that queer gods (who demand sacrifice) do not necessarily demand blood sacrifice, well okay, fair enough. But it seems to me that I am reading all the clues together, and you are taking them in isolation. It is very postmodern of you to assume that it is up to her to decide what god or gods will be her judge. But you touch on a theme -- the idea that the end justifies the means. Mel too, justifies human sacrifice, by her desire to defeat the Great Other. The Great Other seems to accept human sacrifice of sorts as well. As does the Storm God. But perhaps Rh'llor and the Great Other and the Storm God are just three more aspects of the Many Faced God of Death. Well, I guess we'll just have to wait and see, then.
  13. Not sure what your point is here. The many-faced god is not merely a god of death (which sounds sinister enough) but also a god of murder and assassination, if we can judge him by his worshippers. What? Is that not evil, now? Well we are all free to disagree with each other. I'm just presenting an alternate perspective to the one everyone seems to be assuming. But again, I would not claim that @StarksInTheNorth's theory is not supported by textual evidence. Nor do I think that you or he should deny that I have presented textual evidence as well. I'll leave it to the Seven Gods to pass judgment on her soul. But she died practicing blood magic for purposes of revenge, by her own admission. As for Marwyn, I guess you are free to speculate that he is a nice guy who studies blood magic for purely benevolent purposes. I'd say the indications are otherwise. So make your bets, in case Winds of Winter is every released.
  14. This response attacks a straw man. The problem is not that Marwyn associates with Pate, talks to Pate, or even had Pate present in the room when Sam first entered. The problem is that he did not send Pate out of the room before having a conversation about matters Marwyn regards as secret and confidential. He let Pate stay there and listen to the whole thing, while Sam spilled his guts on the floor and told Marwyn absolutely everything he knew (except that he was a coward). This must have taken a while, but it never occurred to Marwyn to send Pate out of the room. I'm not sure why he would need to do that anyway, since it is obvious the Alchemist's real goal was to kill Pate and to become Pate. In any event, the issue is not whether Marwyn and the Alchemist were in league at that time, but whether they are in league now. They are evidently in league now, else Marywn would have sent Pate out of the room and lot allowed Fake Pate to listen to matters he considers secret. Obviously, they both consider the rest to be sheep, since Qyburn quotes Marwyn with approval, and shares his attitude. My point being, of course, that a recommendation for the likes of Qyburn is not a good sign. We've seen enough of Qyburn's methods and morals to guess that he was expelled from the Citadel for excellent reasons, and it is not a good sign either that Qyburn considers Marwyn more understanding of his ways of thinking. I'm just citing the textual evidence. Your response is that the textual evidence might possibly be wrong. Ok. Fair enough. But that goes both ways. Take, for instance, Marwyn's claim that he is off to see Dany for the purposes of helping Dany. Everyone in this thread seems to assume that Marwyn is telling the truth, whereas I have tried to point out the possibility (likely in my view) that he is lying. Nonetheless, I would never tell anyone in this thread that their theory that Marwyn is off to visit Dany has no textual evidence. Obviously there is textual evidence, in the form of Marwyn's own statements. Blood magic as practiced by Mirri did not, in any direct obvious or overt way, involve human sacrifice. Human sacrifice was apparently one of the effects, but Mirri's actual ritual seemed to only make direct use of animal sacrifice. Okay. There's "no indication" if we ignore the indications, such as Marwyn's connection to Mirri and Qyburn. Not true. There are also warlocks in Asshai. Warlocks are from Qarth when the context indicates that they are from Qarth. They seem pretty evil to me. But you could say that about anything, and probably would. If I were, for instance, to read you "The Shadow over Innsmouth" by H.P. Lovecraft, you would probably say "There is no indication that the Deep Ones are evil, just different from what we expected." Or if I were to read you his "Pickman's Model", you would say "There is no indication the ghouls are evil, just different from what we expected." And if I were to read you "Herbert West: Reanimator", you could say "There is no indication Herbert West was evil, just different from what we expected.". Herbert West, BTW, is a pretty close model for the likes of Qyburn and (probably) Marwyn, a deranged mad scientist scoffing at the narrow-minded limitations, and ethical concerns, of his more-conventional colleagues. Such mad scientists are almost a trope in many an old weird tale, and their scoffing at the limitations of colleagues is another common pattern. The only question is whether GRRM is old-school enough that all the traditional danger-signs of the evil mad scientist and mad sorcerer will lead to the same conclusion, or if he intends to be hyper-modern and "subvert expectations" or something, and have Marwyn turn out to be an upstanding guy. Oh, well, if an upstanding guy like Randyll Tarly associates with warlocks, they must be okay. And if their methods cause more harm than good, well, that's another point in their favor. LOL. In all seriousness, the power of the Qartheen warlocks is evidently waxes and wanes over time. But the effectiveness of their methods has nothing to do with whether they are good or evil. If there is no textual evidence, then why did you just concede the point? Dunno what you mean by your "... as if they are fact ..." qualification, but, as I indicated above, every piece of textual evidence can be questioned as to reliability, and Marwyn himself need not be necessarily taken at his word, when he has an arguable motive to lie. But, again, I would never tell others that there is "no textual evidence" that Marwyn is going to Dany, because obviously there is textual evidence.
  15. Which do you challenge? Marwyn allowed a faceless assassin to be present during his long interview with Sam, even though he obviously means to keep the things said in this interview secret. The faceless assassin was impersonating Pate at the time. It is ridiculous so suppose that Marwyn would have permitted the half-witted Pate to be present at such a meeting. So Marwyn obviously knows the faceless assassin is not Pate. Marwyn ordered Sam to be put to bed, and it now appears that a faceless assassin is about to carry out those orders. So yes, Marwyn is obviously in league with the faceless assassin who murdered Pate. Mirri and Qyburn each practice blood magic and/or dark sorcery of the worst kind. Both are former students and/or associates of Marwyn. Qyburn is a depraved mad scientist, necromancer, sadistic vivisectionist. and frankensorcerer, who was rightly expelled from the citadel. Qyburn considers his less-depraved colleagues at the citadel to be "sheep" with one notable exception, Marwyn. Only Marwyn had any understanding or appreciation of Qyburn's ways of thinking. Marwyn has been to Asshai, and studied under warlocks and shadowbinders. A "warlock" is generally defined as a practitioner of evil magic, and a "shadowbinder" is evidently some sort of necromancer who binds the shadows of dead people. Marwyn sacrifices to strange gods. I guess, if you prefer not to take all these heavy hints, you can imagine that the only thing he sacrifices to these queer gods are pommegranites and melons. Moreover, Marwyn and his cabal (a sand snake and a faceless assassin) intercepted Sam before he could report in to the Citadel, pumped him for information, and are now off to his ship, where are located Aemon's books, Aemon's kingsbood corpse, and Mance's kingsblood baby. So yes, Marwyn is not a nice guy, and is interested in blood magic and/or other kinds of dark sorcery.
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