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Mister Smikes

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  1. That's fine. But I was discussing the significance of the lemon tree climate discrepancy. And so was GRRM, unless he failed to read the question he was answering. On the issue of the lemon-tree climate discrepancy, have you adjusted your position?
  2. Agree with "not mutually exclusive". And I will go a bit further and say I think GRRM means to keep us guessing whether Pod is alive or not. I'm afraid my memories of that Green Knight are a bit fuzzy.
  3. How is this my problem? I don't expect her ever to go back there. It isn't even what Stoneheart asked of her. And if she decides to disobey Stoneheart and spare Jaime, that is even less of a reason for her to go back there. At the moment I am arguing that, whether she kills Jaime or not, there is no reason to believe Pod and Hyle are alive, (and no reason to believe she will return to the BwB). And if she kills Jaime, it will because she swore to serve Catelyn, and because she screamed a word symbolizing acceptance of her mission. Anything more requires a complete renegotiation of their relationship after Brienne is cut down. You are conflating very different things. You can survive indefinitely with an elevated chin from a tightened noose. Pods feet were dangling before Brienne's feet were dangling. That's what matters. Only in the sense of her chin being elevated by the tightening of the noose. You completely miss the point. Hanging did not kill instantly in "The Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge" either. Hanging almost always kills, because the hangman almost never cuts you down, no matter how many words you scream. Lem is like most hangmen -- he is carrying out a sentence under orders. He does not have discretion, as far as we know. Still, we can imagine Brienne being cut down. Nothing is absolutely impossible. And (if you ignore the whole zombie thing) there is even some evidence for it since we've seen her walking and talking. But this does not require anyone else being cut down. We can even, if you like, imagine all 3 being cut down. But "I can imagine it and you can't absolutely disprove it" is not a very compelling argument. Other than the fact that they were hanged. LOL. She was asked to choose between her loyalty to Jaime and her loyalty to Stoneheart, whom she had swore to serve. She was not asked to decide whether she likes Pod better than she likes Jaime. That would require a complete renegotiation of the original terms offered here. That's what oaths are for. Her oath to serve Catelyn. Her agreement to accept the mission (via the word she screamed). There has been alot of buildup and foreshadowing regarding oaths. You just declared all that to be completely irrelevant. Exactly. Either she keeps her oath, kills Jaime, and doesn't go back. Or she breaks her oath, spares Jaime, and doesn't go back. If I were in Brienne's shoes, I would feel justified in breaking any oath I made. But Lem does not seem to mind serving her. I don't know what her zombie mind considers reasonable. But why not? She expects Lem to carry out her orders, presumably without hostages. And Brienne, like Lem, claims to have been her loyal servant.
  4. Yet when Arthur died, Excalibur was returned to its faerie custodians. Though perhaps this goes hand in hand with the notion that Arthur is not really dead, which in turn perhaps could imply that the faerie custodians are merely holding the blade for Arthur.
  5. Lonmouth is a member of the minor aristocracy, from an old established House. He squired for a prince. Lem is heavily implied to be a commoner. He is compared to a "soldier" which generally means a commoner with military experience. His mode of speech is coarse ("bloody" and "arse" and "bugger"), similar to Sandor's (the grandson of a commoner, who militantly rejects the pretentions of his family's new class as knights). Lem accepts scoldings from common innkeepers with equanimity. "We're outlaws. Lowborn scum, most of us, excepting his Lordship."
  6. @Lord Lannister, @John Suburbs, et al. I'd like to further explain why hostages are completely irrelevant to the Brienne/Catelyn/Stoneheart interactions, as they have been so far portrayed in book. Brienne took an oath to serve Catelyn -- to obey her commands. Stoneheart intends to hold her to that oath, and to that allegiance. When Brienne is brought before Stoneheart, she reasonably explains that, since they parted, she has merely been trying to carry out Catelyn's last instructions. She argues, in effect: I have been and still am your servant -- I am loyal to you. Stoneheart, however, has her doubts. There are subtle indications that Brienne's allegiance has changed. She carries a Lannister sword. And she has said certain things in her sleep. So she puts Brienne to the test, by ordering her to kill Jaime. By agreeing to comply with this order, Brienne would demonstrate that she is still Stoneheart's servant, and willing to oppose Stoneheart's enemies on command. Brienne fails the test, and Stoneheart orders her hanged (as a betrayer). Hostages are irrelevant here. Hostages are to keep your enemies honest. Your own vassals are expected to demonstrate their loyalty by obeying your commands. Stoneheart wants Pod and Hyle hanged as Lannister soldiers, and wants Brienne, as her loyal vassal, to want what Stoneheart wants. Anything else, including Brienne trying to negotiate on behalf of justice for Lannister soldiers, potentially makes Brienne a traitor in Stoneheart's eyes.
  7. My question was not whether it is impossible to imagine hanging victims surviving. The question is why it is assumed that they survived. And I was specifically asking about Pod and Hyle. Stoneheart was not even present. She was back in her cave. Which is why, after they leave the cave, Brienne addresses all her pleas to Lem. As for what trains of logic Stoneheart is capable of, or how much of this logic Lem understood, who knows? We can, if we wish imagine all kinds of things running through their minds. The question not "how is it even possible?" but rather "why the assumption?" Because, you know, normally hanging victems don't survive. It's like "The Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge" but times 3.
  8. But you don't even want or believe that Brienne will kill Jaime. So how is that even a problem? She somehow survives, lures Jaime away from his men, repents her oath, breaks her oath, and they both decide to go nowhere near Stoneheard (which, if she's going to break her oath anyway, would be insane). (And if you are talking about my theory, it is consistent with GRRM's SSM where he says fire wights are driven by their missions, not their humanity. The hostages are relevant only to her human motivations.) When she hanged Peter Pimple, was that not a huge betrayal? Also, when did Stoneheart make any offers or promises regarding Pod and Hyle? They were Lannister soldiers and to be hanged as such. The only life she ever offered Brienne was her own. Pod was hoisted first. The order in which Hyle was hoisted was unclear, since all her attention was on Pod. Not by any logic I can see. It is already a huge stretch to suppose Lem would cut down Brienne because she screamed a word. Stoneheart's orders were not conditional. But what logic would he cut down Pod and Hyle as well? I guess you can imagine it, on some logic. But my question is: why is it inevitable? Why are you so sure?
  9. Serious question to you and others. Are you not even slightly worried that Pod and Hunt might be already dead? Were they not being hanged when we last saw them? How often do people survive being executed? There's some excuse for Brienne, because we have since seen her walking and talking (even though that does not necessarily prove anything for obvious reasons). But why do so many treat the survival of Pod and Hunt as if it were established fact?
  10. Also (in addition to what I said before) because of Brienne's fever dream, where she perceives a shadow striking from her direction and killing the man she loves. In her vision, the man she loves, who is not Renly, is leading her horse through the trees. Also because GRRM in interviews has called them "wights", drawing a connection between the zombies of fire and the zombies of ice. Also because Bonifer's quote from the Seven Pointed Star suggests that Wights are regarded as sinister and unholy.
  11. Other than GRRM saying that they are in some ways not really the same persons any more? Other than GRRM hinting there is a reason that wights don't get POVs after they return? Other than UnBeric asking Thoros, are you my mother? Other than the horrible inhuman things Stoneheart does, like hanging children? Other than the fact that Stoneheart does not even bother to ask Brienne about Arya and Sansa? I don't recall ever saying that it "has to be". But it is plausible. And this is, in effect, a speculation thread. Stoneheart inhabits the physical form of Catelyn's corpse, and so in that sense is a "zombie" rather than a "ghost". Other than that, the distinction is not particularly important to me. There are different kinds of corpse revenants and different kinds of ghosts. Well, the ice zombies don't tend to talk. Except Coldhands. But, IIRC, there were suggestions that ice wights retain certain of their former memories.
  12. That's merely one way of putting it. But I explained this horror tradition in the post you were responding to above. Neither were any of the traditional examples of horror fiction I cited. Even UnBeric suspects he is an entirely different person. He asks Thoros, was I born in fire on the battlefield? Are you my mother? And Stoneheart is a "grimmer shadow" than UnBeric was.
  13. If Catelyn had any control over Stoneheart whatsoever, she would want her children as far away from Stoneheart as possible, in order to protect them from Stoneheart.
  14. Okay dude. I get it. I'm just a child at heart, and you are a sophisticated adult, who is only interested in realpolitique. Which makes you superior to me in every way. Does not change the fact that the story has zombies in it. If that makes you mad, you are lashing out at the wrong person. Maybe GRRM is a child at heart as well. I'm just taking the text as I find it,and considering the implications. And the text has zombies in it. I have not seen any evidence of chainsaws yet, but I would not necessarily rule out a supernatural animated golden hand.
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