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Mister Smikes

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  1. What is this? I thought a discussion is what we were having. I never told anyone else they should go away. But it sure sounds like you just told me I should. And ultimately, our opinions don't matter. GRRM's opinions do. I'm not trying to write fan fiction. I'm just trying to guess where the story is headed. Based on evidence, clues, and foreshadowings. And when I point out all these clues, people seem to say (in effect): no, we don't like that; go away and leave us alone. And I guess I'll eventually have to do that, if none of you want to engage with actual textual evidence.
  2. Because the sword is named oathkeeper, and she took an oath, and we know what that oath is. And Sandor is a day's ride away. Except he isn't really because she's lying about Sandor.
  3. It is disingenuous to pretend I ever said it was "all about zombies". My question was perfectly sincere, and you made no attempt to answer it. Why did you ever read past the prologue then?
  4. There are many aspects of the story that I do not like. But I do not pretend these elements do not exist. Zombies, like dragons, are pretty obvious. GRRM had an ice zombie return to life in the prologue. It was, by normal literary standards, a taste and a foreshadowing of things to come. Later, in a sort of twist, he revealed that there are fire zombies as well as ice zombies. I"m not sure how you missed it all. And when I point out all the clues, and death dreams, and foreshadowings regarding Jaime and Brienne, your only response is "yeah, but I don't like it." Lack of obviousness is not the issue. When you have over 20 pov characters in your story, and you are known as an author who loves to mess with his readers heads, there are room for a few of them to turn into zombies. Several non-POV characters have turned into zombies. Then, a POV character, who we knew had died, returned an an obvious zombie. What's next? The next obvious thing is to mess with our heads, and have a character who we are not sure has died return as zombie, but the readers and POV charcters are left guessing.
  5. Someone's going to be unhappy no matter what GRRM does. Maybe that's why he has so much trouble finishing. Honestly, I'm fine with GRRM ruining the books for you. I just don't want him to ruin them for me. Then what was the point in lying to him in the first place (while creepily fingering her sword hilt)? You are just making the story go around in circles, because you don't like where it is fairly obviously headed.
  6. Jaime's zombification has been foreshadowed since book 1, through Bran's visions: "Their eyes glowed red as hot coals in a brazier. Perhaps once they had been lions, but now they were twisted and grotesque. " and this There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood. "Shadow" can be another term for a wight. "A grimmer shadow leads lus in his place." (Thoros comparing zombie Cat to zombie Beric). Bonifer also draws a connection between shadows ("shades") and wights and revenants: "I fear no shade, ser. It is written in The Seven-Pointed Star that spirits, wights, and revenants cannot harm a pious man, so long as he is armored in his faith ." Jaime scoffs at this idea. Later, Lancel invites him to repent and take refuge in the Seven, but he scoffs because the Seven will not give him a new hand. So he fails to armor himself. Shortly thereafter, a shadow appears to him at midnight .... Looks like Jaime made his choice, and now Red Rh'llor is going to give him that new hand.
  7. I've read quite a few effective tales where the undead continue to multiply, swelling their ranks with the living, and returning changed, horrible and different. I understand that some people don't want to read that kind of story. But I have to wonder, why did they ever read past the prologue of AGOT? I find your "Not Jaime! Anyone but Jaime!" reaction curious, not the least because so many on these forums seem to agree with it. I doubt it is a perspective that many original book readers of AGOT could have anticipated sympathizing with. Which may be part of GRRM's problem at this point. The middle portion of the story has become so diffuse that many of the original fans have lost patience and drifted away, and so many of the few who remain think that Brienne and Jaime are now the stars of the show. Certainly, GRRM has had trouble coping with the middle portion of his story. One can still find, on certain websites, many critical reviews from fans who felt that GRRM was losing the plot and trying the patience. Perhaps, on some level, the story is "broken" to some extent no matter what GRRM does. But YMMV. Personally, I do not think that Jaime's death and zombiehood will break the story. It is his continued presence as a POV character that threatens to break the story. And I think that, now, is finally over. Jaime, like Stoneheart, will never get another POV chapter.
  8. Not any more. Jaime went for a day's ride, and now has been missing for weeks. Whatever happened, happened. And we missed it. Before any of that can happen, something like this will happen (I mean, has happened), as foreshadowed in one of Brienne's fever death dreams: "Lord Renly was ahead of her, her sweet smiling king. He was leading her horse through the trees. Brienne called out to tell him how much she loved him, but when he turned to scowl at her, she saw that he was not Renly after all. Renly never scowled. He always had a smile for me, she thought . . . except . . . "Cold," her king said, puzzled, and a shadow moved without a man to cast it, and her sweet lord's blood came washing through the green steel of his gorget to drench her hands." Renly who is not Renly is of course Jaime, leading her horse though the trees as they go allegedly to find Sandor. The shadow that slays him is her own "shadow" -- the wight she has become. They are not going to Stoneheart. That would mean breaking her oath and killing Jaime anyway. Either she breaks her oath, and saves Jaime by not going to Stoneheart. Or she keeps her oath and slays Jaime herself. Her mission is "take the sword and slay the kingslayer" not "take the rope and tie up the kingslayer and bring him to me. Which will she do? "She touched the hilt of her sword, the sword that he had given her. Oathkeeper." Yup! She's going to do it. Sorry guys. I know you're all in denial.
  9. No, they hanged Pod. If hostages were relevant, all these "oath" themes would be pointless.
  10. Odd logic, since last time I checked, Stoneheart has been dead, and a zombie, since STORM. Yet she continues to pursue her "loose ends". Would zombie Brienne slaying (and zombifying) the kingslayer, count as a huge impact? I think her story arc primarily relates to Sandor. You may have to console yourself with the idea that in the afterlife, Brienne has become more beautiful, as foreshadowed by Jaime's weirwood dream. And the dead continue to appear in dreams and visions. But zombie Brienne is not really Brienne, just as Stoneheart is not really Catelyn. Zombie Brienne will be hideous. At least Ned did not come back as a zombie. I think Jaime will not be so lucky. I think he is dead. He will continue to be relevant, in that when a mystery knight appears with a mystery squire, readers may think it is Brienne and Pod, when it is actually Sandor and Ned Dayne.
  11. Thank you for the quote. At the risk of being accused of nit-picking I would that the "falling star" and the "stone of magical powers" are one and the same. Both are what we would be tempted to identify with a "meteor" (though the ASOIAF texts never use the word AFAIK). And there is nothing here to contradict the idea that a blade forged from a meteor, or from the meteor's heart, would be made of metal, just like many other meteor-metal blades of history, legend, myth and fiction. Check out out this image of an ataxite sword. Kinda milky, isn't it? 13200498723_d1c57c458a_o.jpg (2436×2024) (wp.com)
  12. Because you say so I guess. No, I speak about it as if we don't know. You're the one who wants to argue from ignorance. The text does not actually say that, though Yes I can. Your absolute certainty to the contrary does not bother me, because you are not GRRM. Nothing has to be "rational". After the dream, Jaime (perhaps) feels more kindly toward Brienne. This kindly feeling is inspired by the dream, in which he and Brienne are allies against a common foe. He then acts on his feelings, perhaps without thinking much about them. None of which necessarily implies guilt or repentance. Which I'm not necessarily ruling out either. It's just that the text never documents such a though process. And later, Jaime makes clear to Lancel that he has no interest in repentance. Says who? The dream is less likely to influence his conduct if it was weeks ago, rather than something he just woke up from. You are WAY overthinking this, while ironically accusing me of being too "rational" about Jaime's sudden impulsive reaction to a dream vision.
  13. I can't find your words on "a search of ice and fire." The words I find from the books: "forged from the heart of a fallen star". Which to my mind means some kind of meteoric metal. The meteor may be a stone. The heart of the meteor may be mostly stone as well for all I know. But once you forge something from that possibly stony heart, what you are normally working with is the metal content, together with whatever impurities (such as carbon) that could plausibly mix with forged metal. It says forged from the heart of the fallen star, not carved from the heart of a fallen star. The pommel, not the hilt, was made of pale stone. And it was "carved". It is a miniature sculpture affixed to the end of the hilt. It is perfectly plausible for a sculpture to be carved of stone. I meant that Allyria is no longer betrothed to Beric, who has died. She can betroth, and ultimately marry, another worthy knight, who will then be a "knight of house Dayne"
  14. Not stone. The implication is that, like many historical swords, it is made of meteoric iron. The high nickel content can even contribute to a paler and more silvery appearance. I don't know if nickel content is by itself sufficient to explain it's milky appearance or other special qualities. But meteoric iron can contain any fantastical extraterrestrial substances that an author wishes it to have. Since there seem to otherwise seem no candidates, let me point out a possible broader interpretation. Dornish custom is not quite so patrilinear as the rest of the Seven KIngdoms. It is possible that a worthy knight could become a knight of House Dayne by marrying into House Dayne. Or perhaps even a betrothal would be sufficient. And Allyria Dayne is available.
  15. Sure you do. It is only us non-believers who are doomed to confusion. It's a funny taunt. But I very much doubt that Lem's cloak is a formerly white cloak that has been stained yellow by piss. It seems more likely that it is a formerly green cloak that has faded to yellow, but which still retains traces of the original green. Nor was Lonmouth ever a member of any kingsguard, as far as we know. But I suppose it is part of the theory that he secretly was one, or something.
  16. Many believe it, but no-one else understands why they believe it. I guess because it is possible and because there is no particular evidence against it. Lem exists so that the BwB can have a few colorful members. Beyond that, Lem is a red herring. He exists to briefly assume the Hound identity, and resemble Sandor in some ways and Brienne in other ways. He exists so that when, in future volumes, a mystery warrior shows up wearing the Hound helm, readers will debate whether it is really Sandor or really Lem, and no-one will suspect that it is actually Brienne But I guess he could be Richard Lonmouth too for all I know. Certainly, Lem is not his real name.
  17. I think that the True Knight theme is an important one to GRRM. It is a theme that he can explore with more than one character. There is no particular need for a laundry list of superficial similarities. Moreover, although I believe it is Sandor's destiny to become a True Knight, this has not happened yet, and I don't think GRRM wants it to be obvious that this is where he is headed. Sandor is savage, tormented, and more-than-half a monster. GRRM even makes a half-hearted effort to convince the careless reader that Sandor has died in this condition, and that his story is over. But with Sandor / Brienne there ARE a laundry list of similarities and parallels. And many of these certainly ARE superficial -- more of appearance or of potential appearance than of underlying reality -- Each is referred to as "The Hound" [Jaime jokes that Brienne is "the Hound with teats, except she has no teats".] Each is a superior fighter, typically using sword, shield and metal armor. Each is thought by some to be hideous; wears hair long; is very tall, is about 6'8" to 6'10"; is muscular. Each appears to be about 29 years old [Sandor is 29, Brienne 19, but Brienne appeared to have aged 10 years when Jaime last sees her]. Each has pale eyes that would appear grey in dim light [Brienne's eyes are blue; Sandor's eye color is unknown except that they appear grey at night by torchlight when dilated by drunkenness and rage]. Each has suffered severe injuries on one side of the face, with flesh missing; has sustained a sword wound to the upper thigh; and an injury to the forearm. Each has served on a kingsguard, but is not a knight. Each has fled from prior kingsguard employment, and is considered a criminal and fugitive by some; each has been falsely accused of at least one crime. Each won a tournament, attended by each's king. Loras Tyrell was the other finalist. In the last combat of the tournament, an incident occurred involving Loras and an alleged dirty trick. As a result, each was declared the victor. At this same tournament, each seized an opportunity to fight, in hand-to-hand combat, a fierce landed knight, against whom each bears a bitter grudge. This grudge relates to a hurt each sustained years ago, when still a child. [Brienne fought Red Ronnet at Bitterbridge; Sandor fought Ser Gregor at the Hand's tourney]. Each was nearby with Lady Stark [Arya in Sandor's case; Catelyn in Brienne's case] when a young king, freshly crowned and newly wed, was murdered. Each had no involvement in the murder but nonetheless had to flee with Lady Stark for their lives. Each was severely injured in a fight at the Crossroads Inn. Afterwards, each begged Lady Stark [Arya in Sandor's case; Stoneheart in Brienne's case] for mercy. But she had no mercy. At the Crossroads Inn, each was with a child, dressed like a boy, aged about 10-12. Each had earlier captured this skinny, underfed child outside a ruin, during a rainstorm. Each had then traveled together, and sometimes helped each other in combat. Each had been searching for surviving relatives of Lady Stark [again Arya / Catelyn]. Each has been captured by the Brotherhood without Banners. Each was subjected to a trial held in a cave, before their undead leader, who held a fiery blade. Thoros was present. Lem Lemoncloak, one-eyed Jack and Lady Stark [again Arya / Stoenheart] were among the accusers. Each was accused of being a traitor and a Lannister servant. Each was offered a chance of vindication by the sword. Each is in love with a reputed kingslayer who was formerly a romantic idealist and idealized knighthood until experiences at Kings Landing taught disillusionment. The age difference is about 16 years. The one who injured each person's face was a monster in human form. He was enormous. He spent time in the black cells below the Red Keep. At one point, he became silent and never spoke thereafter. He was slain with a spear. He was associated with "the Hound" [Biter is associated with Rorge, the new Hound; Gregor is the former Hound's brother, and is himself associated with the Clegane coat of arms] Each has defeated Jaime Lannister in combat [Sandor unhorsed Jaime at a Tourney; Brienne defeated Jaime in single combat]. Each has an older brother and at least one younger sister. All siblings have died. A poor companion of each, of short acquaintance, was slain by a Bloody Mummer. Each buried him in a quiet isolated place by the sea, near a cave, and among walls of un-mortared stone. [Sandor buried Brother Clement who was slain by Rorge, on the Quiet Isle; Brienne buried Dick Crabbe, slain by Shagwell, at the Whispers. I assume here that the gravedigger is Sandor, which is technically theory, and therefore a slight cheat]. Each has a savage vengeful streak. [Dominant and obvious in Sandor's case; non-dominent and less obvious in Brienne's case]. Because so many of these parallels are superficial, I don't think the intent is thematic. Brienne is not really 29, she just looks that way. Brienne's "dirty trick" incident with Loras and Sandor's "dirty trick" incident with Loras were really very different, even though it is possible to describe them in similar language. I think the intent is to fake out the reader. What this signifies to me is that if a mystery warrior shows up (perhaps wearing the hound helm), and briefly mentions an incident from her past, the reader will assume it is Sandor referring to his past, when it is actually Brienne referring to her past Conversely, if another mystery warrior shows up (perhaps with a shy 12 year old mystery squire), and briefly mentions his past or his squire's past, the reader may assume this is Brienne and Pod, when it is actually Sandor and Ned. I have not yet listed the odd Pod/Ned parallels. I will if you are curious. Indeed. Brienne is chivalrous, with a subtle undertone of savagery. Sandor is savage, with a subtle undertone of chivalry. We have lost track of both, and both may have continued to change. Sandor may have become a True Knight while we were not looking. Brienne may have become a monstrous fire wight while we were not looking. Sandor may have died and been reborn in one sense (as the Elder Brother hints). Brienne may have died and been reborn in another sense (as her meeting with Stonheart and Thoros hints). Yes. Brienne seems to be much closer to the True Knight ideal than Sandor is. This is intentional on GRRM's part. He is setting up the expectations he intends to mess with. IMHO. Let's not carry that too far. Any knight can make a knight. Arlan just never knighted Dunk. It's only a theory. One of many.
  18. Stoneheart will keep her oath. Fire wights are driven by their oaths. She will raise Brienne with the kiss of fire, thereby keeping her promise not to keep Brienne from her oath. Then Brienne will take the sword and slay the kingslayer First Jaime Then Gregor Then Stannis Finally, she will go after Sansa.
  19. I think they both remember it the same way. A promise requires no particular magic words.
  20. Doesn't matter. Human Brienne might not do such a thing. But fire wights lose their humanity. They are driven only by their oaths. Or twisted versions of their oaths.
  21. So she screamed "Sword!" Which means, in context, "Yes, I swear I will take the sword and kill the kingslayer." Which mirrors and is foreshadowed by her oath to take King Renly's sword and kill King Renly's slayer. Which she swore three times. And which task Catelyn swore she would not keep her from. And which is thematically emphasized by the name of the sword in question. "OATHKEEPER" And after she got cut down she said Ha ha fooled you I didn't mean it. I just want to bargain some more. Now, about the terms ... To which Stoneheart answered .... (gee, what would Stoneheart say to that) HANG HER! And this time don't cut her down. Did I tell you you could cut her down?
  22. She will take the sword and kill the kingslayer. Or her shadow will. Just like in her fever death dreams. Then her shadow will go after other reputed kingslayers: Gregor, Stannis .... finally Sansa.
  23. No. That was not what happened. Stoneheart never asked Brienne to bring Jaime before her. Stoneheart never offered mercy to Pod or Hyle or offered any conditions regarding Pod or Hyle. Unless these are merely theories about what happened off screen after the chapter ended.
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