Jump to content


  • Posts

  • Joined

  • Last visited

Posts posted by Thandros

  1. I like to think it's because that have some limited ability to see the future like the green dreams of Jojen and they've seen just how badly wrecked Westeros is going to be by the current civil wars that are ravaging everywhere and it gives them the best shot of ensuring victory over the living. Interestingly a couple of other conflicts are associated with nasty winters which suggest preemptive awakenings associated with conflict which didn't pan out and they went back to sleep which definitely gives the idea that they're looking for opportunity.

  2. Tywin horribly misplayed his hand here and it only worked out at all because of a massive stroke of good fortune.

    When Catelyn took Tyrion Twyin had a nice safe option of appealing to the king. Appealing about the illegal seizure on spurious grounds of one of the members of their family and demand he be returned. Eventually reports of their arrival at the Eyrie arrive and they are summoned back to King's Landing and both sides have their cases heard and everything ends up working out. Tyrion is released once the falsehood of the evidence is revealed and Catelyn perhaps escapes any serious consequences by playing on female stereotypes in the world of Westeros and Tywin gets to ensure vengeance on the person responsible by having Baelish executed for his role in masterminding the entire thing and maybe gets even more influence by arranging the replacement master of coin. Assuming Joffrey's role in the entire thing doesn't come out the Lannisters have firmly come out on top and can possibly extract a bit of grovelling from the Starks to enhance their prestige. Except they'd have to work through the king and Tywin doesn't really like having to rely on people above him to achieve his goals. It would particularly in this case the limitations of his power and I doubt he could stand that.

    Instead he decides to find a plan b which results in one of the many poorly thought out hare brained schemes that dominate most of ASOIAF's plot. He decides to effectively break the King's peace with raiders with only the most basic of steps taken to prevent revealing who was behind it because Tywin clearly thought that people knowing he was behind it was a good idea when it probably wasn't to lure Ned into an ambush. Right and then what? Assuming Robert isn't killed by the boar (Given Cersei was relying on a drunken hunting accident to remove him it easily have gone poorly for her) he's now had his  best friend been kidnapped and held hostage. Good excuse for a war if Robert wanted one and now he can significantly improve the realms finances in one fell swoop. Most of the realm would eagerly side with him in such a war. Tywin has no serious allies to call upon who would actually stick with him and even the lords of the Westerlands might decide not to join him in a suicide conflict.

    This of course assumes that he is unaware of Cersei's actions which seems reasonable. If he is aware the plan makes a little more sense as a ruse to cover a military build up which can be legally unleashed once Robert is dead and Cersei is regent. The entire thing does suit Tywin's personality and his desire to send out the right messages from his point of view. A preference for dramatic statements of the risks of opposing Tywin Lannister and his wrath rather than more intelligent displays of cunning and diplomacy would definitely fit him to a tee. Dramatic overreactions to deal with problems in the least efficient way is definitely how he normally deals with most problems.

    He got lucky as Robert's death allow him to turn a seemingly inevitable disaster into a fairly advantageous start to the fighting in the Riverlands. If Robert hadn't died he was looking into serious possibilities of major issues in the future as had to figure his way out of the corner he was boxing himself into regardless of how well it was working out for him.

  3. Maybe but weirdly it could make a lot of sense him ending up king of Westeros. Most of the other surviving members of the great houses are either going into any post war resolution council to figure out who should be in charge with lots of baggage that would arguably prevent them becoming king without vast opposition. The Baratheons are likely to be all dead in legitimate lines that aren't distant cousins. Robin Arryn may not survive and Harry the Heir doesn't exactly look like kingly material from what we've seen if he survives. The Lannisters of any relations have no hope. The Greyjoys fall into the same boat. Edmure is likely to be the only Tully to survive and he's not exactly looked upon well by everyone so he might get pushed aside. The Tyrells have historically struggled to control their own region and they come from a lesser house before the conquest and that assumes Cersei leaves any alive if she has the opportunity to get her way. The Martells might be in an alright position after everything has ended but it's possible Arianne meets an unfortunate end if she gets too closely involved with Aegon and Tyrstane and Doran might not be in an ideal position if backing Aegon ends up getting them badly burnt. King Bran basically requires no Targaryen claimants of any merit to be in positions of power so assume Aegon and Dany kill each other or remove themselves from the game in some dramatic fashion and Jon decides maybe he just wants nothing to do with it and wanders off or his legitimacy (if he has any) is called too much into question to be taken seriously.

    That leaves the Starks and Bran who have had much more shit done to them than they've been dishing out and Bran himself has spent a good chunk of the civil strife lost or beyond the wall conveniently not making political enemies. The fact he can't walk may only encourage ambitious lords hoping to take advantage of a weak king to support him in hopes of crippling royal authority.

    I think King Bran in the vacuum of legitimate leadership (possible given the Baratheons look likely to  die off completely and the Targaryens  I don't think have much better odds and the Martells may end up just as badly and have been diplomatically isolated for almost a generation) has a number of advantages. He has few hardened political enemies who might bare grudges against him and may end up with powerfully allies in a number of regions depending on how the cards fall at the end. His opponents to take the position are largely discredited and he may well have other actions he's done to encourage support.

    Of course this would all seem to be at odds with Bran's principal character journey of ignoring temporal power in favour of higher spiritual or magical power instead e.g. Bran won't be a knight but he'll learn to fly instead. Of course his victory in the game of thrones could end up being construed as the limitations of physical means of exerting authority as against more esoteric justifications of authority and power. The Lannister faction had all the manpower and gold it could in theory ever need but it hasn't helped them one lick in actually consolidate authority over the Seven kingdoms. The Starks and Bran in particular have very limited or no forms of conventional power yet they may end up triumphing in spite of these supposed limitations.

  4. 19 hours ago, James Steller said:


    It really is strange how there never seem to be any survivors of the battles fought against the Northmen in ASOS. More than three thousand men marched with Hellman Tallhart and Robett Glover to Duskendale. A thousand of those men were killed, but we have no idea what happened to the rest. How many were captured? How many have turned to banditry? Or did they get killed off later?

    We get a better idea of what happened to the Northmen at the fords, but there's still many possible survivors to account for. All of them gone?

    As for Condon and Stout, I seem to recall that Ser Gregor apparently took back the Fords at some point, so we can assume they went down fighting? But again, no mention of survivors, even though the numbers of men killed in any army are often very small before they break and retreat.

    In an ideal world, they'd regroup somewhere, maybe join the Brotherhood Without Banners? But I doubt GRRM will ever get around to addressing what happened to them.

    Duskendale actually has an answer. The retreating Northerners are caught by Gregor Clegane on the retreat and shattered. Some dead, some possibly captured and the rest scattered into the woods and countryside being hunted by Gregor's men. Whatever small number limb back to Harrenhall with news of the fighting are insignificant.

    Condon and Stout we can assume possibly elected to accept Roose Bolton as Warden of the North and rejoined his army as it made it's way north. Jonelle Cerwyn who was brought south with her father presumably was still with her men and Condon at the fords. Also the Stouts host Ramsey and Roose Bolton which he might not do if he'd suffered recent losses of both men and a family member of unknown relation like Barbrey Dustin does when she bars Ramsey from They probably all end up back in the North having accepted Roose Bolton as warden of the North at least for a while. It's one of those things which is more implied than outright stated and I might still be wrong.

    There are probably roaming North men in the riverlands. Some of broken men who are surviving either by banditry and trying to live off the land by any means necessary as they try to make their way home. Some might have joined up with both halves of the brotherhood without banners or other bandit groups. Soem amy be dead having turned to banditry and been killed by the locals or killed by the locals who thought they'd turned to banditry. At least some of the Karstark men have this fate as when Arya visits Stoney Sept some of them are prisoners in cages for their acts and dying.

  5. That would be great... except their are two problems.

    One Lucian wasn't attempting or pretending to write history in the slightest. He was making mockery of fantastical stories presented by those who came before him. His entire 'history' is a story told basically from his perspective about his fantastical journey. The True history is clearly at least attempting to present some form of historical narrative or at least presenting historical events.

    The second problem is that Ἀληθῆ διηγήματα arguably translate better as a True Story rather than a True History particularly given the context of what is referring to. At which point the name similarity dives right out the window and you're left holding meaningless straws.

    Also Questions has serious problems by placing the last Kingsmoot so late. Given the Greyirons are supposed to have ruled for a thousand years before being overthrown by the Andal invasion it either places the Andal invasion way too late or the Andal arrival in the Iron islands was much much later than elsewhere in Westeros. Then again everything about Ironborn history seems to have been a mess.

  6. Three possibilities.

    1. The reference to bacon instead of bread was a mistake by GRRM.

    2. There is some deep symbolic meaning here about Tyrion's guilt which is weird since the charges he's being accused of he's a completely innocent scapegoat set up by Baelish and the Tyrells.

    3. There are several hours between Tyrion's breakfast and the end of the duel. By the time he duel's over and Tyrion vomits are the horrific scene in front of him of Oberyn's skull crushed by the Mountain the bread has already left his stomach and as such is no vomited up. The bacon was part of the blood sausage possibly as part of the filling distinct from the rest or wrapped around it and the blood had broken down sufficiently or given the state of the arena wasn't noticeable.

    Also I doubt he's been poisoned at all. Oberyn is implied to be drinking the same wine and I doubt he would risk disrupting his preparations by poisoning himself in the process even if he knows how to deal with it.

  7. 5 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

    Well, the northems have just as much reason to hate her, as they have to hate Roose, that alliance is impossible after the previous backstabing, Robb gave them the best terms and showed goodwill by freeing Theon only to be spat on the face.,

    The lords would not raise their arms against Roose without a clear leardership, that without a Stark it would not happen, Manderly will only do it if Davos can find Rickon for example, Robett Glover failed to recruit new men in white harbor, Karstark, Ryswell and Dustin are on Roose side with the Freys and IT supporting him outside of the north.

    The north also does not need to negotiate to take back the their lands, Ramsey already had tooked Moat Callin by the time of the Kingsmoot, the other areas controlled by the IB were not hard to take, like how easily they tooked Deepwood. Like Tywin said "Come spring, the northmen will have had a bellyful of krakens".

    For one by the time Ramsey has Moat Cailin Euron is already crowned and they've heard about it in the North so it's at least weeks afterwards. Second the revolt is happening regardless. Robett Glover's failure is a cover for Manderly plans to revolts. Pretend he can't muster men to fight while in reality they're being mustered in numbers for the plan. It's not clear if Davos has succeed in his efforts to retrieve Rickon but It looks very likely that Manderly will move against Bolton regardless. And while yes Dustin and Ryswell are on Bolton's side for now he's lost the Karstarks very quickly since only the branch was on his side and the mainline has no desire to aid the Bolton's and even the Ryswells and Dustins only back Roose and if he dies they'll flip faster than anything against Ramsey.

    And sure the Ironborn were definitely treacherous and they probably hate them. At the very least they didn't break guest right and aside from Theon they didn't break any sworn oaths. Not a lot but they might decide to run with it. It's not a perfect plan but none of the plans at the Kingsmoot are much better.

  8. Thing is Asha's plans aren't that bad. While becoming lady of Ten Towers (She won't become Lady of Harlaw Rodrick makes that clear but she'll gain a valuable castle with good lands) would be a nice prise being in charge of a castle under King Euron or Victarion would probably end up  an unpleasant experience in different ways(At least some of Euron's boasting is true. He has a suit of Valyrian Steel armor so he must have gone to valyria and survived. Given the suggests on what he's planning I wouldn't want to be anywhere near him with real power in his hands).

    Her plan as Queen relies on the idea that while the Starks are gone the Northerns aren't just going to accept the Boltons as Wardens and a revolt will begin swiftly against them. Given the dislike of the Boltons (only really the Dustins and Ryswells are their side at all, plus the treacherous Karstark branch, and even with them their are serious doubts about their loyalty) by supporting such a revolt they can one earn favour with the Northerners for helping defeat the worst traitors in the North. Given the relative strength of the Northerners they would definately be the weaker position in such a negotiation. They may consider from a purely practical standpoint consider giving up the mostly valueless lands of the Stoney Shore and Sea Dragon point for support against the Boltons and Iron throne worth it (they may also not consider it worth it but they don't have a lot of options at this point). They also likely hate the Boltons more than the Ironborn at this point so working with the lesser evil is something they may consider even if temporarily.

    And the Naval forces of the Iron born are a huge asset if they can drive those Loyal to the Boltons and the Iron Throne from the North. The Iron Throne really by this point only has the Redwyne fleet to face the Iron fleet and it's not exactly clear which fleet is superior. WIthout the Fleet of the Iron Throne itself it's unlikely the Iron throne can easily defeat the Iron fleet in battle. SO Basically once the North has locked down Moat Cailin the Iron Throne would have few options to actually attack the North. They can't really in such a situation pull the Redwyne fleet from the West to support a landing in the east lest the raids the Ironborn unleash do enough damage to cripple them economically. There other ships probably aren't enough to deal with the Fleet Manderly has mustered at White Harbour and attacking Moat Cailin from the south is a fools errand. Unless Asha grievously mishandles the Iron fleet and loses it against the Redwyne Fleet she should be able to force the Iron throne to a stalemate at the worst while at the same time being the first Ironborn ruler to have possibly made permanent gains in abut 400 years.A good position to set up a reformist rule to fix some of the Ironborn's many problems.

    And she is right in Clash when she upbraids Theon for trying to hold Winterfell. He had no chance of holding it. The fact she flees to Deepwood Motte which she has no chance of holding is mainly because she's out of better options. It'the one place she can be certain of temporary safety and staying would likely only result in getting herself killed off by Euron (or worse). It's fairly clear she only intends to stay long enough to consider her next move but Stannis shows up right as she figures out a way to overturn the Kingsmoot.

  9. I half wonder if while treated as marks of greatness they actually are something quite insulting the people carrying them in actual Ghiscari but since the Ghiscari have lost most of their original language they no longer understand the insults they have included in their own names.

  10. 2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

    I get the feeling I could say anything and you'd argue it. Illogical or not while ignoring more than worthy clues laid out by the author. 

    Like, why would the Nights Watch need a secret door for attacking people? That makes no sense. They have plenty of gates, and the Wildlings aren't that close to the Wall to care. IF an army is attacking Castle Black, a small band led out some tiny door underneath the castle isn't likely a large enough force to matter in any battle. You're also just as likely to allow the Wildings through to the other side than you are to make some effective attack. You're better off to stay atop the Wall and fire down on them. Other than any group needed to hold Castle Black itself from attack from the South. None of which would require a door.


    You're also quick to shoot down clues laid by Martin, using the Maesters as your claim to truth, yet turn around make unsubstantiated claims like this.

    Umm the same reason most castles have sally ports. A well timed and executed sally against an unprepared enemy can devastate them such that they are forced to retreat and abandon the siege. Given the nature of the wall it's possible the gates are later additions and the black gate was originally the principle way through designed to ensure only black brothers left or entered. It might say something about Other tactics that such a thing might be considered necessary.

    Something to consider is the concept of the red herring or maybe the term coincidence means nothing to you. Of course you've probably got some theory about the number seven because it appears everywhere in the older stories. Even though it's just Septons inserting the number everywhere they can. Not every tiny match up of numbers is going to be significant.

    2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

    You play real lose with your arguments

    Why would it be younger than the First Keep by considerable margin? When it, the HIghtower, First Keep at Winterfell, and Storm's End are all First man keeps and all but Pyke were built by Bran the Builder supposedly. Showing the Stonemason to likely be the same, or of the same culture to have those skills and knowledge. What evidence are you even basing on that on??

    Because those castles have equally been rebuilt and coastal erosion. Pyke sits on a series of Stacks. They erode away. Not quickly but they do. The sea tower sites on the outermost sack and is the oldest because it's stack has been around the longest and will likely be the next to fall into the sea. It's simple geology of coastal erosion. Waves attack rock and erode it. Weaker rocks erode faster to create arches. Arches collapse to form stacks. Stack erode and topple to form stumps. It's not a precise process depends on the rock but it will happen eventually. This isn't even speculation the descript of Pyke in AWOIAF literally says this happened over time. The oldest part of Winterfell must be somewhat older than two thousand years old and I find it unlikely the oldest part of Pyke is that old. Also None of these castles were likely actually built by Brandon the builders. He's a sort of mythic figure not likely to actually exist. But a Bunch of old castles claim to have been built by them despite probably only reaching their current form thousands of years later in much more recent times.

    2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

    Yea, that means it's Latin. Not Basque. If it derives from Latin, then it is Latin. 

    Basque is a language Isolate and likely predates Proto-Indo European. They have different diphthongs than Latin also.

    Rex is King in Latin also, so Errege is likely just an older form possibly picked up from the Etruscan's  if anything.

    No it doesn't. When a language borrows a word sure it's the same for a time but Basque borrowed from the Latin term Regem perhaps two thousand years ago or maybe a little later it's hard to say. It's long ceased to be a latin term and aquired a basque nature and a basque set of forms. It's ceased to be a foreign word in Basque but a loanword and as such a part of basque. Or do you consider half of English to be a different language.

  11. 1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

    Well the Iron Born history isn't to be trusted. Which is my point. They were illiterate till Harmund I Hoare sometime after the Andal Invasion. So any history before then is questionable at best. 

    Plus, they possibly took the Citadel and had access to forge the records

    Consider this. There have been 111 Kings of the Iron Isles, yet there are supposedly 998 L.C's of the Nights Watch (Another group with a dubious history. One tied to the Night Fort for most its history.).

    In 2000 years there have been around 260 popes in Rome. 

    So either the Iron Born are missing a lottttt of kings from their list. (Which if they're illiterate, might make sense). Or, the Night's Watch list is misunderstood or wrong. With it being possible that each castle had its own L.C. With 19 Castle on the Wall, that would cut the years by a lot.

    One possibility is that different kings have merged to together over time defined only by their stories. Kings with the same name would end up looking very similar particularly if their stories lack distinguishing marks to tell them apart.Also do you think the Ironborn universally noted as unintellectual would have the capacity to organise the forgery of thousands of records in the citadel in such a way that no would be able to ever tell the differences and then have those changes applied to records of the Ironborn kept elsewhere. Westeros has a fair degree of the centralisation of knowledge but I don't think it's so extreme that even the Ironborn could falsify a huge amount of history.

    With the Night's Watch at least you could easily have several in a year without problems assuming elections are held quickly and given the nature of the job you easily expect to lose Lord Commanders fairly routinely and remember the History of the Nihgt's Watch goes back 8000 years or so plenty of time to have 998 Lord Commanders and Samwell finds some very old lists listing only 600 or Lord Commanders so they have records detailing their Lord Commanders going back quite some time at the very least.

    1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

    That being said, we are pointed to the Iron Born hiding stuff and being closer to the Andals than alluded. 

    Hugor of the Hill has 44 sons and is an Andal mythic hero and founder.

    Nagga's Hill on Old Wyk has 44 Ribs or Weirwoods that were chopped down. With a legend of the Grey King slaying the demon tree Ygg. Many believing these are not dead trees, but rather, carved weirwoods forming the Haul of an Overturned ship. 

    High Heart has 31 chopped down Weirwoods.


    The Iron Isles have 44 Islands total. With 31 in the Main Grouping of which 7 are the largest, then 13 extra near Lonely Isle.


    Erreg the KinSlayer attacked HighHeart and cut down these trees. He was supposedly an Andal who fought the Cotf (though most Maesters in True History would have us believe the Cotf were gone by then)

    Errege is Latin for King. So Maester Perestan was right in his A consideration of History. Erreg is just a title.

    Errege is King in Basque not Latin though it is apparently derives from Latin (which if true would be a very interesting thing to try and understand about very early basque culture and their organisation). The numbers thing is probably another coincidence. It should also be noted while Lonely light and it's rocks are grouped with the Iron Islands in every sense they are unconnected. They're eight days sail away. That's no small distance so far beyond that they will probably not show up on most maps at all.

    1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

    https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Torgon_Greyiron  Erreg the Kin Slayer is likely Torgon GreyIron the Later Comer who slew his brother for hiding the Kingsmoot from him.

    House GreyIron are Andals, before House Hoare who are also Andal.

    This suggest that the Iron Born are who attacked HighHeart, possibly built a giant ship from the Trees, and are the Andals fighting the First Men.

    I would think Tristifer IV who died against 7 Andal Kings, is likely the King who fought for Highheart against Erreg the Kin Slayer (Torgon the Later Comer GreyIron). With the 7 Andal Kings being Rock Kings from the 7 Iron Islands.

    The 13 Islands near Lonely Light, point to the Night's King who was L.C of the Watch for 13 years.

    With 13 being carved into the Weirwood at Harrenhal, built by Harren the Black Hoare whose brother was L.C. of the Watch, ruling from the Night Fort. 

    With the Nightfort having the secret Weirwood door for sacrificing children, and the Andals/Iron born breaking the Pact of the First Men and driving back the Children of the Forest beyond the Wall. It would make a lot of sense that Harren's brother is at the Wall, while Harren is holding down the Riverlands. They are holding back the CotF from what it looks like.

    Ummm no. That is all rubbish. Remember this detail. The Greyirons were wipped out by the arrival of the Andals in the Iron Islands (The Hoares do have some andal blood some marrying Andal wives to strengthen their position). Also Torgon Greyiron comes at least a thousand years prior to the end of House Greyiron and the arrival of the Andals in the Iron Islands involving timelines and tales of a some what dubious note. At the very least he comes from teh Kingsmoot era which is the older section of Ironborn history and probably pre Andal which makes this all highyl unlikely at best.

    Also the Black Gate isn't for sacrificing children. It's likely an old secret way across the wall that can only be used by the Watchmen to come and go in relative security for leading sorties or scouting their enemies undetected. Harren's brother and Harren have no evidence of coordination and it's more likely Harren forced his brother into the Night's Watch to secure his position.

    1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

    The Oldest part of Pyke castle is a Round Tower. 


    If the Iron Born were the first Andals, and they broke the Pact, then it would stand to reason they would want to hide this fact. Giving motivation to take the Citadel as House Hoare did.

    The Oldest part of the Citadel is a castle said to be a pirates den originally.



    It may be that the foundation of the Citadel is somehow tied to the Iron born as the Hightowers are said to be a Sea Faring people. Apparently not one of the Good Brothers.


    Edit- Erreg was supposedly acting for a River King against his rival. Suggesting this is House Blackwood and House Bracken. Who usurped the other either 1000 years before the Andals, or 500 years before according to Hoster Blackwood

    So is Winterfell's oldest tower and no one suggests they are secret Andals. Given the location and state of Pyke it probably losses Towers at a routine basis as their stack are eroded away by the sea. it's probably younger than the First Keep in Winterfell by a considerable margin.

    The island was a pirate den but nothing to suggest the builds were. Likely the pirates were Ironborn when they held Oldtown in the distant past. I should note the settlement is said to have originally been found by a sea faring people though given the suggestions they may not have travelled the sea in any conventional means if the deep ones are behind it like the Seastone chair and the Toad stone among others. It certainly gives some creepy edge to the Ironborn worship of the drowned god but I don't think it says much about the Hightowers themselves or whatever connections they have. They may have arrived and taken over the original oldtown some time after it's founding.

  12. 8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

    That being said. Lorath helps Validate the Andals and their invasion.

    With Lorath being occupied from roughly 2536 to 1536 ( 1000 years roughly) and the scouring of Lorath with Qarlon the Great vs Valyria. Being empty the next 100 years till Valyrians who worship Boash take Lorath.

    With only Andals possibly existing in Braavos as the only place in Essos left for them to hide. Braavos was founded at least around 500BC, revealing it existed around 400BC, and revealing itself around 100BC after the Doom when it was safe to.

    Assuming Braavos was where Theon Stark attacked and ended the remaining Andals. This would end the Andal Invasions around 6-500BC (Roughly 1000 years ago). With the Andal Invasions beginning roughly around 3000 years ago and lasting for maybe 2000 years tops. 

    This is as far back as the Andals could have been invading Westeros. Using both Westerosi accounts and accounts from Essos.


    Dragonstone though was founded in 314BC, and has a Sept built into it. Showing an early tie between Valyrians and the Andals. At least the Andal Faith of the Seven. Which is odd.

    Then the ships that carried the Targaryen's had their mast carved into the 7 and put in the Sept on Dragonstone. 

    Then Aegon visited Old Town and his Sept before invading Westeros. 

    Valyrian Steel entered Westeros between 200-100BC.

    Though what ever drove the Targaryens, it seems they didn't want any one to ever create another Valyria or have dragons beside them. Making me wonder if they had any hand in the Doom, but that's a different subject. 


    If we assume that Qhorwyn Hoare (109-45BC) was after Harrag and Qhored, then Harrag and Qhored would be roughly between 200BC to 100BC when the Valyrian Steel swords were entering Westeros.

    I assume they were around this time, and after Harmund III and Hagon the Haertless. With Crakehall taking the Throne after, im guessing that Harrag and Qhored were a return to the Old Ways that Hagon had brought back. Hagon, and Harmund were literate since Harmund I was the first literate King. With Qhored taking Old Town and their sigil suggesting they took the Citadel too, it would be suggested that Qhored being able to read, wanted something there. Maybe books on dragons, idk. Maybe just the Glass Candles Euron possibly has. 

    House Mormont can only be proven to have been on Bear Island around 200Bc when they got their Valyrian Steel sword though. Jorah is also called an Andal, not that its hard proof his house is Andal but its a possible sign.


    Edit- Loron Greyjoy would also be sometime after Hagon the Heartless.

    The Thing with Qarlon the Great is he must lie a little earlier than you say. Lorath was unoccupied for more than a century so it's more likely that the Andal occupation ended around maybe 1800 BAC or even earlier but certainly less than a thousand years before 1436. IT certainly works with the beginngings as early as maybe 3000BAC with the earliest Andals pulled across by promises of land and wealth while the last few were pushed across by fear of the Valyrians perhaps as late as 1500BAC but I doubt any serious groups of Andals cross after this.

    I agree it's possible some Essossi Andals survived around the site of Braavos after the end of the Andal invasion I don't think they were destroyed as late as you say. Theon Stark can't be as late you claim. His invasion of the Three Sisters and the Fingers would probably place him during the war between the Waters so closer to 2000 BAC-1000 BAC if you assume later dates for the War between the Waters. Another thing to note is at least some Essossi Andals were integrated into Pentos to some to give the Pentosi a measure of Andal blood so at least some must have linger on or around the site of Pentos. Most other Essossi Andals presumably either integrated into Braavos or lingered in the hills of western Andalos and diminished into nothingness.

    While I think your right about the Valyrian Steel since most swords with dates go back to that era. The thing about the Sept of Dragonstone is that it probably only goes back to the Targaryen arrival. The statues of the seven are noted by Davos to be supposedly carved from the masts of the ships that brought the Targaryen's to Dragonstone. The sept was either built or organised only after they arrived perhaps as an attempt to integrate better into Westerosi society they intended to connect with.

    Your Ironborn stuff contains several problems for one the dates you gave Qhorwyn Hoare are the last possible dates for his son Harwyn Hoare who probably actually ruled earlier roughly 110BAC to 70BAC assuming his son had a reign of twenty to thirty years. The actually order of Ironborn kings is definitely a very messy topic. Kings who must have ruled after the end of the Kingsmoot are claimed to have been selected by one. I half suspect the entire Iron Island history section of AWOIAF is little more than an unordered collection of stories like Herodotus' dealing with the history of Egyptian pharaohs.

    Qhored I is about the only early Ironborn king we can even guess a date assuming both the tales of his power and his destruction of the Justman's is true (assuming their aren't two Qhored's with different dates if so these dates would be for the later Qhored) can't date much later than around 1000BAC unless the Teague's and other intermittent dynasts of the Riverlands lasted a lot longer than is otherwise said. With this said I'd put Harrag Hoare and Ravos before Qhored with them representing an early return of Ironborn power before Qhored briefly exert genuine authority over much of the west coast before the defeat of his successors drove the Hoares to engage in trade and friendly dealings with the Greenlanders leading to Harmund and Hagon. Of course it also possible Qhored Hoare was the later king and an earlier Qhored GreyIron or Blacktyde was the original one with stories of the two getting merged into one.

    Either way the Ironborn history is a mess and we can't properly make heads or tales of it. Someone's either made a mistake or it wasn't properly thought through somewhere. I doubt Qhored was looking for anything in the Citadel archives as it's an early Qhored I doubt the Citadel would even exist and even a later one I doubt would be hunting for knowledge of dragons or something like that.

    As for the Mormonts I'm inclined to believe they are old and that the Northern Conquest of Bear Island originally took place during the pre Andal invasion era of Ironborn kings since It only seems reasonable a Greyjoy would be King during the Kingsmoot era. As for Jorah Mormont being called an Andal he's only done so by Dothraki who don't or can't distinguish between the different ethnic groups of Westeros so call them all Andals.


    10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

    The Buildings of Pentos are square, and there are no Castles or Kingdoms that we hear about, nor any ruins that I recall. There are currently no Knights in Essos and no Tourney's. 

    The Andals were said to be in Essos near Pentos, Braavos, and Lorath. With them trying to take Norvos, who called to Valyria to stop them causing the scouring of Lorath.

    IF, the Andals were expanding from a base in Westeros, this would work with what we see in Essos. 

    The only issue Im trying to figure out is the Round Towers of Westeros's old Castles. Yet, the Arryns built a square castle first, and the round one only after seeing the castle of Westeros. This though is an issue either way though. 

    Though, many of the Castles with round towers have association with the Sea by location, except for what would seem, House Stark. Who did have a sea fleet and gargoyles on their round tower like Dragonstone has. Its possible the Starks were not able to pass the Neck when they invaded and had to invade at Sea Dragon Point where they first fought the Warg King (Blackwoods?) near the Wolfswood. 

     It maybe that the Andals started in Westeros as the Sea Faring people that the Hightowers come from and invaded Essos making their way for Valyria on some religious crusade to end the Dragons. Maybe Theon Stark wasn't fighting Andals, maybe he was the Invading Andals. IDK. This theory of yours still needs some fleshing out but I think it has potential. 

    The Reach definitely seems to be where Knights and Tourney's come from and originated at though. Making the tales of Florian the Fool, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, the Rainbow Knight, and others likely true.

    Round Towers seem to have originated in Westeros too.

    One thing to consider is that I don't believe we ever get any good descriptions of the fortifications of any Essossi Cities. Round towers and such are better for defence but trickier and more expensive to actually build. Simple practicality would dictate that most buildings are built square with only towers built for defence being round except if whoever was building them had artistic vision in mind.

  13. 50 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

    Now your just deflecting cause you know Im right. We're talking about the Vikings and England. Not Caesar and the Gauls or Mexico and Peru. 

    I was simply pointing out outside forces exploiting internal divisions to take over is hardly uncommon. I'm not sure how that is deflection all of a sudden.

  14. 2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

    Isn't that the Andals in the Vale near the Fingers? The Andals invited in by one House to fight against another and the Andals betraying both houses and invading.


    To your point though, the Durrandon's may have already intermarried with the Andals at that point. 


    So to be fair, we may both be right here.

    It is but it's hardly the only time an outside force has exploited local divisions to their own advantage. the conquistadors in Mexico and Peru had were similarly able to exploit local differences to their own advantage in taking over and Caeser also initially does in Gaul.

    It's hardly uncommon scenario. Look hard enough and you can find it.

    5 hours ago, Egged said:

    The Andals existed in Essos, but the historical claims made in Westeros about historical continuity from Essos to Westeros is false: the Faith, knighthood, tourneys, etc., that all emerged in Westeros over time. 

    Possibly but they were Andal ideas made by Andals who came over. Given the time involved saying anything is impossible but the faith in it's most basic form must predate the Andal invasion to a degree and emerged in Essos. Some of the other stuff may have emerged later in Andal culture but who can say.

  15. 5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

    Gonna hard disagree with your associations here as making no sense at all. The Vikings were the Stormlanders invading the Riverlands? That makes no sense. The Vikings were a sea faring people that came from a different country to the Island of England. The Storm landers invading the Riverlands would be akin to to Essex invading Mercia as both live on the same Island. 

    You're apparently unaware of the theories that Jesus was the leader of a rebellious militia group.

    Whether you agree with their theories about Jesus, or the Danish assertion of Folk Legend that say's they come from the Tribes of Dan. Is irrelevant to the fact that these things exist, and GRRM is a biggggg fan of history and myst and uses both as inspiration for his books. 

    And no, we're not confused on when the Iron Age began or the steel Age. The Iron Age began after the Dark Ages that followed the civilization collapses along the Mediterranean, with history largely picking up again with new kingdoms on the board and old ones gone, like the Myceneans. 

    Hard to take the rest serious as you seem to have a select knowledge on history and myth and assert your own feelings to much on the subjects validity instead of excepting that these theories exist whether you agree or not. I don't think the Danish are likely of the tribe of Dan either any more than British Israelism. Yet, they exist and were believed to be history at the time of the medieval age. Kings and queens based their lineages on these claims. With some going back to Cleopatra and some going to the Lost Tribes of Israel. While two from Trojan hero's Aeneas and Brutus. Brutus being the British connection to Troy and where the name Britain comes from that Replaced Albion. So named from a Greek Princess who came to the Island hundreds of years before Troy.

    The Stormlanders are the Anglo Saxons. Invited in to deal with a disturbance in Britain (Riverlands) aiding one side against the other and then refusing to leave and end up taking over. The Iron born conquest is the invasion of the Vikings. They initially defeat the Local forces of the Riverlands (Northumbria and other Anglo saxon kingdoms) and eventually manage to win victories against the men of Wessex (Stormlands) and they were able to claim control of part of the Kingdom of the Stormlands, the Riverlands (Northumbria and East Anglia and elsewhere). It's a very rough paraphrasing at best and misses some details but mostly works.

    On the Iron age. Some Iron artifacts made by smelting go back as far as 1800 BCE the general consensus that large scale smelting began around 1200 BCE long before the end of the Dark Age (a period which really only refers to Greece, the other regions have their own periodization which often doesn't match up.)

    That entire last section is a random hodgepodge of different myths tales and legends of no historical value.  Maybe people did believe them but I doubt anyone would seriously claim to be descended from them. Theories exist but that doesn't mean their right or important. You seem to think every thing is connected with the right wacky interpretation I can produce an answer that will answer everything and fail to realise in the process you've created theories that lack any basis in anything. 

    If you want me to give a serious answer please produce a serious piece of writing to analyse in the first place. Slapping every myth you find together does not make an argument.

    5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

    Why do you say that?

    If the Iron born had taken Old Town, and the Citadel along with its Maesters and Glass Candles, then they could have altered the records to dissociate them selves all they wanted. Disconnecting them selves as culprits of the Long Night. 

    You can't disagree that Euron is doing exactly as the Hoare Kings did and trying to conquer all of Westeros naming him self king of every where he goes (Even if contested). With Dany being one of the few things that can stop him. Which is very much the situation I'm suggesting happened in the past. 

    The Hoares when they controlled Oldtown could alter the records all they wanted but they can't change the fact that when Aegon landed Oldtown and the Hightower were held by the Hightowers as bannerman to the Gardener Kings.

    "The Greatest city in all of Westeros, Oldtown was ringed  with massive walls, and ruled by the Hightowers of the Hightower, the oldest, richest, and most powerful of the noble houses of the Reach. … Thus it was that no men from Oldtown Burned on the field of fire, though the Hightowers were bannermen to the Gardeners of Highgarden." Fire and Blood p23-25

    There literally in the text. The Hightowers ruled oldtown as Bannermen to the Gardeners. No uberpowerful Hoares ruling everything and only stopped by the arrival of Aegon.

    As for Euron. I think conquest is the last thing on his mind. Kings age and die, their realms crumble around them and turn to dust and ashes in their hands. Gods live forever though both in reality and in the minds of their worshipers.

    5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

    Well an invasion could have happened the other direction. I still feel the Andals came from Essos and are stated as having come from the same general area as the first men. Being possibly one of the three tribes conquered by Huzhor Amai. Suggesting they began around the same time.

    Andals are so named for the Vandals and GRRM has already said as much. The Vandals were viking invaders from the main land along with Saxons and Jutes. All invaded England using long ships. The Vikings of later ages like the Danes used similar long ships. 

    Just a couple of things about the Vandals. One they were a germanic people not vikings. Viking is a particular Norse term refering to an activity not a group of people and two the Vandals never invaded Britain as a group. They crossed the rhine in 409 into Gaul then entered Spain before eventually invading and settling North Africa before being effectively destroyed when the Vandal Kingdom was conquered by Justinian.

    3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:


    Lets take a Greek view that all the gods between cultures are the same by another name. 



    Notice the Dawn Bringer reference used towards Azor Ahai type figure. Along with the sword Dawn of House Dayne of Starfall.

    Lucifer and Jesus are the Morning Star

    Let us then consider this Old English poem.


    So Jesus before he came to Earth in mortal form is Lucifer/ Eosphoros. Son of Eos and grandson of Hyperion the Titan. Whose family was over thrown by Zeus and his kids. With Zeus casting aside Hyperion to take his throne, Aphrodite casting aside Lucifer to become the Morning Star, and Apollo casting aside Helios to become the new sun. This happened during the Titanomachy is which Atlas led the Titans in war against Zeus.

    So Jesus was a warrior.


    What's more, is Lucifer is the 13th born since Adam and Eve.

    So, as Iapetus is brothers with Hyperion and Kronos, father of Zeus. That would make Saturn, Noah. The 10th born after Adam and Eve. 


    This is likely the inspiration for the Gem Stone Emperors and the Bloodstone Emperor and his sister the Amethyst Empress (Aphrodite and Lucifer). As Aphrodite is a daughter of Zeus by some accounts, making her also the 13th generation since Adam and Eve. 


    Adam and Eve who lived in the Garden of Eden among the two trees. The Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge, which man ate from. These remind me of the Weirwoods in Westeros and the Blue Leaved trees in Essos.

    The ancients believed this stuff, as evident by the Poem.

    This is an Old English Casket written in Runes depicting Christ, the Elven Smith Wayland, Ties to Troy, and ties to Rome.


    One the greek view is highly reductionist and extremely inapplicable particularly if you are trying to compare polytheistic and monotheistic religions. It often won't work very well and you should really analyse culture with it's own context not try to force it to fit another.

    First point is that the connection between Earendel and dawnbringer relies on a possible connection across different language groups from opposite ends of Europe. Also Koine greek develops into Medieval Greek before Old English really begins to appear depending on who you ask.

    Second with the Morning Star you once again cross cultures and language groups to assimilate the Morning Star and Lucifer. Lucifer is the Latin name for the Morning Star not related to Lucifer of the Bible. It relies on mistranslation of the Hebrew Old testament through Latin into English to create. it's not important.

    And then you compound by mistaking the given grammar. David is the bright morning Star not Jesus. The section in the comma refers to the individual before it not the one at the start.

    One if you've forgotten Zeus was the son of Kronus so he cast Hyperion away from nothing. Two Zeus didn't have children until after the overthrow of Kronus that part doesn't make sense. Three given I've broken the Morning star, jesus and lucifer connection already the rest makes no sense.

    Iaeptus is equated with Japheth. They're not the same chracter they come from vastly different mytholigical underpinnings. Trying to make them the same is just the wrong thing to do.

    Aphrodite is much more commonly said to have been born from the cut off private parts of Ouranos. Also Greek myth is mess with different places having different beliefs and ideas which don't always come together.

    The casket is a casket. They decided to give it a bunch of different images on all it's sides from different places and peoples. The connection to Troy relies on the incomplete lid which is disputed as to what it refers. It's hard to place anyone's actual belief based purely on what they placed on a casket. Very important for early anglo saxon art and culture. It suggests they had knowledge of familiarity with a wide variety of topics to carve into it. I'm not sure what your trying to go with here.

    Also they ain't the ancients. By the time of the poems they'd have entered the Medieval period.

    3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:
    Edit- If Earendel sounds familiar. Its because its the Star Frodo holds up against Shelob in Lord of the Rings. Frodo holds it up as he hails Lucifer/Jesus-Earendil.

    The object Frodo holds up is a Phial containing the light of Earendil not Earendil the star or the person. The Star's in the sky and the light is the Silmaril Earendil carried to Valinor and then bore upon his brow in the sky forevermore. Earendil is the father of Elros and Elrond who traveled across the sea from Beleriand to Valinor to because the Arda to provide aid against Morgoth.

  16. 54 minutes ago, Egged said:

    Hugor of the Hill. What hill? The Andals are not really from Essos, at least not the ones actually mentioned in history. Knights, tourneys, the faith of the Seven, all of that emerged in Westeros over time.

    Hugor of the Hill = Casterly Rock.

    Uthor of the Hightower is Hugor of the Hill or related.

    The first Hightower was built of timber. It was probably made of the cut down wood of High Heart.

    Hightower was torn down to make 44 ships of weirwood. The 44 masts on Nagga's Hill are from those ships.

    Hugor had 44 mighty sons, who wore plates of iron, and who would conquer far away lands. They conquered the iron islands and more.

    Uthor of Hightower married Maris the Maid, but Argoth Stoneskin had crowned her at the first tourney, and Argoth left and "roared outside the walls of Oldtown". Stoneskin, grey skin, or full plate iron armor?

    "King Theon Stark" is said to have defeated the Andal warlord Argos Sevenstar in the Battle of the Weeping Water. The King of Winter then sailed across the narrow sea to the coast of Andalos with Argos's body displayed on the prow of his ship like a figurehead. Theon burned a score of Andal villages, killing hundreds and capturing three tower houses and a fortified sept. The king displayed the spiked heads of his victims along his coastline to deter future invaders.

    This likely did not take place in Essos, it is probably literally the Three Towers island right outside Oldtown. Agos Sevenstar was probably Argoth Stoneskin, and Theon Stark just went and took revenge on where he came from, outside of Oldtown on Three Towers island.

    Azor Ahai

    Huzor Amai, the Amazing

    Huzor Amazing, or the Great?

    The Great Huzor, the Great Hugor, the Great Uthor, the Great Other.

    You have the Fisher Queens too

    Silver Sea, like Greywater. Floating palaces, like Greywater Watch. Favored by the gods. Either they eventually fled to Westeros, or it was always a story set in Westeros. 

    Great idea the andals were always in Westeros. One problem we have at least one account of Andals that you can't exactly disprove because of poor records. Qarlon the Great who led an attack on Norvos and provoked Valyrian retribution. Also if the Andals where never in Essos where does Andalos get it's name from.

    It would be a great theory if it held the slightest bit of evidence that would actually allow it to exist.

    22 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

    Some good points brought up by a couple people so ill address each in a bit. The most relevant point brought up is that the Maesters do indeed present at least 3 different plausible timelines. So Im not going to crunch my keyboard belittling people who feel the longer dates to be the more accurate dates. Specially when some of these early figures may have indeed lived for 1000 years. (Which is a rough number im sure no one takes quite literal as 1k years)

    I tried to use events that I felt helped prove my point about the Andals landing roughly 2300 years ago and finishing their invasion around 1100 years ago. There is more historical accuracy in this dating than the others based on a few concepts. The largest being that the Azor Ahai figure is a Christ like figure, with Christ existing 2000 years ago, and being responsible for multiple faiths like the Roman Catholics and the East Orthodox Catholics represented by the Faith of the Seven and the Church of Starry Wisdom. 

    The Morning Star that the Dayne's and their "falling star" legends references is that of Lucifer and Jesus who are both referred to as the "Morning Star". With Azor Ahai sharing the same duality of good and evil. Light and dark.

    The Andal Invasion is more reminicent of the Viking Invasions of England that began with the Saxon's who forged the Seven Kingdoms of England (North Umbria, Wessex, Essex, Etc.), and running up to the Norwegian and Danish invasions of the later times, and ending with the Norman Invasion (Which is the Targaryen invasion as represented by the War of the Roses and the Dance of the Dragons). With the Normans being founded by the Viking Rollo. 

    Westeros being England after all with the Wall being Hadrans wall which inspired GRRM.

    The Dark Age after the Age of Heroes is reminiscent of the Long Night and the Age of Heroes in Asoiaf. The Age of Heroes being when the Trojan war and maid theft happened. The Trojan war happening 1200Bc abouts. Since this is the Middle Ages that Asoiaf takes place in. Then from that time, the Trojan war was about 2000 years earlier when Jesus being 1000 years earlier.

    The Vikings are Germanic, and the Germanic Dane tribe traces back to the Lost Tribes of Israel by old myth. This is likely how the Andals and Valyrians are tied together.

    This though, is just to explain how the timeline crunch fits reality more around 2000 years. Which would explain the technology progression better too. 

    I also used only Westeros and not Essos because records from the East are dubious and Elio and GRRM have even stated as much. The further away it is, the less reliable the tales. Like Roman's hearing legend of China from the few who had been in those times, but knowing not much. (Specially since the Chinese have destroyed their own history making it hard for even modern historians).

    To the other points though I will address more in a bit but wont be refuting too much. As we've established, the Maesters have put forward 3 timelines roughly, and not going to blast people for picking one of the three that disagrees with the one I chose. I just think the one around 2k years presents a more probable scenario that seems something we could see play out in the books. As Euron is has taken to calling him self kIng in the North and Iron Isles. The Riverlands and Hightowers are on his list.

    Ok this goes from unsubstantiated theory making to out the window madness. Ok one Azor Ahai and christ have very little in common except for being important figures in religion. Azor Ahai is a warrior hero while Christ very explicitly isn't.

    There's a lot of stuff that's very dubious in their including the crazy stupid idea that the Vikings are somehow related to the Lost tribes of Israel. I can't explain how stupid that is.

    You mention technological progress as a means to determine your 'timeline' So assuming the conquest correlates to around the norman conquest so 1066 onwards dating back to the beginning of the Iron age puts the date around 2300 BAC or perhaps a bit earlier than that dating in the ancient world is hard. For the first men assuming they have reliable access to both copper and tin we could probably not unreasonably take the date for their arrival back towards maybe 7,000 or 8,000 BAC. Based on the evidence for organised smelting in the real world at lest 6,000 years BCE and maybe even further. Like I said dating anything in the ancient world is very hard.

    Your decision to compare the viking invasion to the Andal invasion is curious given both have better comparisons. The Andal invasion is perhaps better compared to the invasions of the sea peoples which played a role in ending the bronze age kingdoms of the near east and could be compared with ideas from Greek myth of the Dorian invasion. The anglo saxon migration and the viking invasions are perhaps better compared with the Stormlander conquest of the river lands (beginning with the arrival of the saxon/stormlanders to aid against domestic enemies and they end up staying) and the Iron Born invasion of the Riverlands.

    The long Night/ Trojan war comparison is rubbish. The Trojan war in greek myth was the swan song of the age of heroes, their last great deeds and a plot by Zeus to kill off as many demigods as possible, so it falls better right before the Andal invasion where as the long night falls in the middle of the age of heroes and lacks an obvious historical counterpart (unless you want to start considering flood myths though that may relate to the breaking of the arm of Dorne).

  17. 18 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:
    So the War lasted 1000 years before Aegon's Conquest.


    The thing is the Wolf's den is the name for White Harbour before the Manderlys arrived to found White harbour a thousand years before Aegon's conquest. This means at the very least the attack on the Wolf's den occurred over a thousand years before Aegon's conquest and the king's who launched the attack are not the original king who began the war at the very least it occurred a generation or more after the start of the war. Given that the Lord of Sweet sister believes the Rape of the Three Sisters occurred two thousand years ago according to the Maesters I'm willing to go along with that date as a reasonable one.

    A lot of the rest of the early I've already contested so let's get to the meat.

    18 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

    So lets consider one of the most problematic people and events, Qhored Hoare.

    The list tend to place Qhored before the rule of the Grey Iron's.

    How likely is Qhored before the Andals? Using the Lannisters as a base?

    When the 3rd listed Lannister King is already dealing with Andals. Meaning even if Qhored is in the time of Gerold Lannister, its still after the Andals invaded. 

    Lets also consider that it wasn't till Harmund I, did any Iron born even become Literate. Making any before him and their dating not reliable.

    Qhored though is stated to have ended House Justman who had formed after the Andal Invasion.

    The 1000 years of Grey Iron rule, is either not as long as they say since they are illiterate any ways, or it was 1000 years of Grey Iron rule from the time the Andals first arrived to when the Andals hit the Iron Islands. Either way, it does not conflict with Qhored being during the Andal times and after Grey Iron 1000 year rule.

    The Fact that there are alot of kings before House GreyIron would back up the Idea that House Hightower were sea faring people akin to the Iron Born and arriving around the same time. As Hightowers predate the first men.

    So shortly after the Andals hit the Iron Islands, Aegon came and invaded as there are not many Hoare Kings till Aegon came. 

    This is actually important, as the Banner's of House Hoare show them to rule the Maesters as indicated by the Raven on their sigil. Along with the Arbor, and Bear Island. Suggesting that Harren the Black's family was controlling the Maesters and Old Town.

    Even controlling so far as the Wall and the Night's Watch.

    Then Aegon invades and changes everything. Aegon, who has a sept on Dragons Stone. Aegon who visits Old Town before conquering Westeros. Old Town, which is held by House Hoare and does not take the field against Aegon the Conqueror.

    Im guessing the Hightowers invited Aegon's invasion to fend off the Iron Born threat. Something that is now growing in the absence of any Targaryens. 

    With One Eye Euron seeking to hit Old Town and having had a Glass Candle

    Opposition to Bloodraven, or ally?
    The Crabs
    Considering the time line and taking things into account, Imo, a more interesting picture is painted involving the Iron Born that spans from their Mythic Grey King, to Qhored Hoare holding Old Town, to Harren the Black and his brother holding most of Westeros till Aegon arrived.
    Was House Hoare preparring against the Dragons? Valyrian steel was making its way into Westeros except for to the Iron Born, who have to take one from House Rein. (Red Rein)
    Did the Hightowers welcome the Dragons? Only to worry they might have ended them in the Dance of the Dragons? What is Lord Leyton doing up in his Hightower. Talking to Euron via Glass Candles? Watching him? 
    Reconsidering the timeline, the Andal Invasion during the Age of Heroes, Iron Born exansion to the Wall and Old Town, and Glass Candles, along with Valyrians. What do you think is going on?

    What I think is going on is massive over reach by you based on sources from different periods into some massive Ironborn empire which never really existed. The Hoare sigil marks historical conquests. By the time the Maesters really come into existence they've long lost Oldtown and other areas and it for example doesn't mentioned the greatest Hoare conquest of all the Riverlands. It's likely the sigil is a later post Andal creation which reflects the historical might of the Hoares. As for the issues with Qhored Hoare the obvious answer is. There is more than one Qhored Hoare and our sources simply don't distinguish between them. One who was a great king during the olden early days of the Ironborn before the coming of the Andals who conquered a vast empire and a second later one after the Hoares became hereditary kings of the Iron Islands who fought and defeated the Justman dynasty. Given that Qhored Hoare was the greatest king of the Ironborn in their early days then is makes sense that they would name some of their sons after him. We see it everywhere else after all.

    The Hoares at Aegon's conquest ruled the Iron Islands and the Riverlands and nowhere else. If they did we would have seen references in the actual text to Ironborn control of these areas. The Night's Watch was simply led by his brother at the time he had no control or influence over them let alone the lands in between.

    The Crabs are references to Hoster having cancer which I believe the ancient Greeks described as crabs pinching the stomach or something like that. Not something to do with Ironborn or some other wacky conspiracy.

    What do I think is going on? Once again you worked up a crazy theory in your head from a bunch of half gathered references from different points with little connection and tried to call it some idea of Ironborn domination of Westeros only stopped by the arrival of Aegon the Conquerer.

  18. 1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:
    The Maesters are well aware that Jenny came to K.L. with a wood's witch said to be Cotf, plus Leaf walked among them for 200 years. Bran going into a cave beyond the wall is not the only example.

    One Jenny only claimed she was a child of the forest not that anyone actually thought that. Jenny's mental state is hard to grasp so she is probably wrong about. We actually meet this supposed COTF. They're the ghost of high heart and she has some odd appearances she doesn't look like a COTF so scratch that one.

    As for Leaf walking the lands of men can mean a lot of things. Given that common is reasonably widely spoken among the lands beyond the wall their might even have been significant need for her to even cross the wall. Also she said she did it to watch and listen and learn. None of that means anyone saw her. The fact her heart was weary could easily be that she'd been alone for so long that she wanted to go home and meet someone to talk to. Just because she took the time to go into the lands of men doesn't mean anyone saw or her and if they did. Would anyone else believe it to be anything but the rambling of a madman.

    1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:
    And how do you know the Andals built square fortress first and then later round ones after coming to Westeros? Yet the first men didn't built them? How do you know any of those castle we're built after the Andals as you claim. 

    It's said by Maester Kennet in WOIAF that the first men and early Andals didn't build round towers when noting the age of the first keep. Perhaps some of the first men did build stone castles with square towers but not round ones. If there isn't any evidence of the early andals or first men building round towers then any castles with round towers must either post date the Andal arrival by some time or had access to far superior stone building techniques than the early Andals. Winterfell's inner walls are noted to be at least two thousand years old and the outer walls somewhere over a thousand years. the first keep is older than both so must be closer to three thousand years old or so which is long after the Andal invasion if you place it out at four thousand years before Aegon's conquest.

    1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:
    Meaning the Starks and the Long Night happened roughly 1500-2000 years before Aegon Conquered. With the Andals making early invasions that broke the Pact, and ending their invasions within  500-1000 years.
    Its pretty implied that the Andals were around during the Age of Heroes as stated by the legends.

    What you've is taken two statements which say different things and taken them to be saying the same thing.

    Let's start with Oldtown and the seat of the high septons. For one the Starry Sept wasn't even around when the first High Speton was chosen and this would have been many generations after the beginning of the Andal Invasion to start with. The next sections you don't quotes notes that oldtown became the unquestioned centre of the faith in the cneturies that followed. Also the sources of your quote is Pate a novice of the citadel of dubious capabilities who may not actually know how long the Starry Sept was the home of the high septon or he may simply be paraphrasing the exact amount of time which is longer but he says a thousand years because it sounds good.

    The stuff with the glass candles would place their arrival around 1100 BAC which based on your final estimate would mean they arrived before the Andal invasion.

    As for the Arryn issue just because the crown is said to have been worn for a thousand years doesn't mean it is the only crown they've ever worn. It seems quite reasonable to me that the Arryns could have had two or three different crowns in the past with the older ones being lost or destroyed. The original could easily have been lost when King Roland II attacked the Riverlands and meet his end to an axe wielded by the Hammer of Justice.

    The stuff with the Blackwoods is only relative to the Andal invasion so not really relevant to everything else.

    A counter point to your timeline is the number of Lord Commanders of the Night's Watch of which there have supposedly been 998 including Jon Snow. Given that to elect a Lord Commander the order needs to gather for a vote and elect a candidate by a two thirds majority you can't have multiple being selected and dying in the same battle or perhaps even the same war. Given that several whose rule we know lasted far longer than the two year or so average we'd need for your numbers to be right (the night's watch was founded at the end of the Long night we must assume) including Osric Stark who was leader for sixty years, Byrnden Rivers who led them for thirteen years, Jeor Mormont for ten or eleven and the Night King who led them for at least thirteen years and probably much longer. Given that Sam can find lists containing hundreds of lord Commanders you have to push the Long Night back quite a bit further to fit all of them in.

    Also while in ASOIAF some legends are indeed true such as the others that doesn't mean all of them are accurate tales of the distant past.

  19. 9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

    Well, you've paraphrased the Maesters mostly, but not made any real convincing statements. Considering the Maesters pretend like the CoTF never existed and if they did, they are long gone. When we know that not only are they not gone, but have been south of the Neck.

    They say the Andals cut down all the weirwoods, yet there are clearly weirwoods in every castle in the south.

    They say Andals built the round towers and I guess the perfect walls of Storms End, even though they never build like this ever again and also they Eyrie was built when the Arryn's were jealous of the other castles of Westeros. Mean time the Gates of the Moon that was built before the Eyrie, has square towers.


    But surrrrrre. I believe you and the Maesters. 

    Sure the Maesters are unreliable but they are certainly better than the singers you use to make your arguments about the Andals being in Westeros thousands of years before their is any evidence of them crossing the narrow sea. 

    The about the COTF is that everyone thinks they are completely gone until Bran wanders into a cave and finds a few. Nobody seems to think they are around at all so the Maesters are hardly unique in this at all.

    The reason why the Andal castles have weirwoods is because the early Andals were smart enough to realise that trying to convert everyone by force to the seven was a fools errand and kept them as a gesture of reconciliation between the faiths as a means of strengthening their hold in Westeros. Given that Humfrey Tegaue's attempt to do just that hundreds or thousands of years after the andals arrived provoked the revolt to topple his dynasty you could understand why conciliation might have been preferred particularly when the control of the Andals was still weak.

    The gates of the moon has square towers because it is old. Early Andal castles had square towers and when later rebuilt they replaced them with round towers because round towers are more tricky to undermine. Given the location of the Gates of the Moon it is quite likely it is more vulnerable to being overlooked than undermined. As such the expense of rebuilding it's towers may have been too great for the benefit it might provide particularly given that the square towers aren't actually the ones at the very front of the castle.

    Storm's End's perfect wall is clearly very odd. Maybe it's final form wasn't even built by the Andals themselves but by other even more skilled stoneworkers at some point in the distant past.

  20. 35 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:


    Lanns' father Andal Adventurer.

    House Tarth said to be Andal but they have a first man legend of Galladon of Morne. Their castle though is said to be Andal.

    Storm's End is Andal with Round Towers.

    The Oldest Tower at Winterfell is Round. 

    The Hightower is Round.

    Daeryssa and Serywn of the Mirror Shield

    Ser Symeon Star Eyes

    etc, etc, etc. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that the Andals were around back then and are responsible for the Pact on the God's being broken. That pact likely responsible for Garth the Green who sounds like one of the Green Men or Green Kings. Lann coming from a later time as his grandchild. When the Pact was likely broken as another of Garth's grandchildren, Bran the Builder, helped build the Wall and formed the Long Night. Along with building Winterfell, HIghtower, and Storm's End. All of which have round towers.

    We are told of a King's Guard, possibly the Rainbow Guard, and dragon slayers. With Renly duplicating the Rainbow Guard while being a green armored and horned god like figure, like Garth. Who Durran is said to be related to.

    So when you say that Maris was made up, Im not going to agree.

    There is no serious evidence for the Andals being in Westeros at that point.

    The castles for one can be rebuilt and repaired and updated. Tales of the ancient castles being built in their current forms is ludicrous and even the Maesters simply believe the castles got rebuilt at some point to their current forms not the Andals were around thousands of years earlier than they were said to be. The earliest Hightowers were built of wood and clearly the actual stone Hightower was built after the Andals showed up.

    Almost all of the accounts of Lann the Clever make him a first man. The handful that don't are clearly tales of a more dubious nature and not to be trusted.

    Galladon of Morne is associated with Tarth the island not the house and the claims that he's an Andal also place him much later than the other tales possibly a champion from the Andal invasion when Morne itself was built or at the very least the set of ruins currently associated with Morne.

    Symeon Star Eyes wasn't a knight it's just that the singers gave him that title because it sounded better for their hero to have a knighthood you know when you're singing to an audience influenced by Andal values of Knighthood.

    Serywn of the Mirror is clearly such a mix of different tales and legends from different points of time and history that telling anything about him is nigh impossible.

    If the best you can muster are the stories of bards to support these claims (a source so dubious no one takes it seriously), rebuilt parts of castles and other baseless claims.

    The stuff about the Andals being involved in the breaking of the pact is reasonable but that probably only because the Andals invaded and killed most of the Children of the Forest long after the Long Night and the end of the Age of heroes.

  21. 4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

    That being said, Alysanne does show other things though.

    She was Queen of Love and Beauty to Ryam, but was taken by Lucamore possibly. Who may have been the K.G. who saw her bathing in a pool naked when he saved her. She likely got a rose for the Tourney. And Lucamore was not only a K.G but also a Blackbrother. Pieces seen in both the Maris the Maid legend, Alysanne's, Lyanna's and Sansa's.

    First problem. Lucamore wasn't even a Kingsguard during the attack at Jonquil's Pool and the knights who did come to her defence are known, Ser Joffrey Doggett and Ser Gyles Morrigen (p199 of Fire and Blood). As for Ryam crowning Alysanne queen of Love and beauty I think you read too much into it. The gifting of a rose is something stated to be done by Loras at the start of every joust and I think you feel it is too important given he would have given out perhaps a dozen by the time he gave one to Sansa we don't know enough about how many rounds the tourney had. Though it was the only red rose he gave out that might have been because it was his last joust of the day or because Sansa had red hair. It doesn't seem to be a wider tradition anyone else follows any where I've seen.

    4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

    Sansa is given a rose by Loras but taken by Dontos for Baelish. Who may have a thing for her and may want to knock her up in some dungeon. With Yoren in K.L. around the time.

    Maris the Maid is given a rose presumably by Argoth win he wins her and crowns her queen of Love and Beauty. For her to be taken by Uthor of the Hightower and giving Uthor two kids birthed in the lower dungeons of the Hightower base. As Hightower was built by Bran the Builder the nephew of Maris.  With Bran being tied to the Night's Watch, having built the Wall. 

    Alysanne is given a rose by Ryam but taken by Lucamore Storng and knocked up with a kid. (Maybe at Queen's Crown, but who knows). Lucamore tho is a K.g who spies her naked in a pool and then becomes a Blackbrother having having some bastards. Alysanne's name points to her being a Lyanna architype. (lyanna-se) 

    What does se mean in words?
    a prefix meaning “apart,” occurring in loanwords from Latin: seduce; select. [< Latin sē(d) (preposition), sē- (prefix) without, apart]

    SE - definition of SE by The Free Dictionary

    OR she is different. Not sure how to take the extra se left over. (Maybe this is reaching, but her myths do seem to match Lyanna)

    Lyanna Stark is given a rose by Rhaegar and a Blackbrother is in attendance at Harrenhal. This is all we know for fact.

    She should be taken by someone other than Rhaegar who gives her the rose though, and knocked up by someone associated with the Night's Watch and Bastards. 

    If Mance Rayder is the Knight in a motely of armor, then he would fit the Florian the Fool role with Lyanna as Jonquil the flower. Jonquil is a yellow flower though and a K.G should be involved. Incidentally, we have a golden K.G. in Jamie Lannister who was at Harrenhal for the Feast but told to go to K.L.

    You've tried to make the stories of four characters match but all of them have problems. Sansa was never queen of love and beauty she was simply given a rose by Loras after a joust an act he does to multiple unnamed women during the same tourney.Maris the Maid's story is probably entirely fabricated. Tourneys are the past time of knights and there weren't any knights before the arrival of the Andals. Likely singers have simply inserted a tourney into a song or story about Maris the Maid which may have been dubious in the first place. Lyanna was taken by Rhaegar though and everyone agrees on that even in story. Ned places her lasts words in his mind right next to his confrontation with the Kingsguard in the red mountains of Dorne.

    As for your attempts to use etymology on Alysanne name to compare her to Lyanna it doesn't really work. For one none of these people's names actually mean anything. These aren't the Early Germans of Late Antiquity who did have names which meant something. There names picked for reasons which we aren't given but presumably Alysanne was a girl's name somewhere before hand. we don't exactly have a broad sweep of names from the early period to judge if it was around beforehand. Two the se add on you note is placed randomly with Alysanne's name compared to Lyanna which means it no longer holds it's meaning anyway.

  22. 33 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

    Rhaenyra's other kids had Velaryon genes. Aegon III had Hightower Genes. Now, nothing seem's to change much going forward for House Stark. 

    A fuss is made though over Daena the defiant. The child of Aegon III and Jaehaera. This line though ends up in Daemon Blackfyre, who still can't hatch dragons. Though Illyrio who is possibly with the Blackfyres gives Dany 3 eggs that she hatches.

    A couple of errors. They don't exactly affect the theory though. None of Rhaenyra's children likely had Velaryon blood unless you think their Strong like appearance came from her and Laenor was actually their father. Aegon III had no Hightower blood at all. Daena the defiant is the child of Aegon III and Daenaera Velaryon not Jaehaera. 

    I'm not sure what the entire connection is with dragon hatching I prefer to think the Maesters had something to do with it rather than it being a conspiracy involving an extinct house.

    Of course if you really wanted to go ham on all this Strong stuff with Lucamore the Lusty being Baelon and Alyssa's father then why not go the next step and suggest Viserys during his reign somehow became aware of this which is why he was so insistent on making Rhaenyra heir as she was the only one who could arguably make some kind of legitimate claim to the throne and marrying her off to Laenor an attempt to restore the correct line of succession as painlessly as possible.

    It of course assumes that you think Lucamore and Alysanne actually had two children which I don't buy to be fair. The other stuff about the Strongs being connected to the Starks. Maybe but I don't think the German translation of Stark being strong helps your case since you could technically translate the German stark as stark (stark possesses an archaic definition roughly meaning strong) and they are both cognates so you could argue they are the same word. The Starks are probably related to most houses of First men origin somehow and I'm not sure what would make the Strongs so important.

    The more interesting way to translate Stark is through Kashubian where Stark translates apparently as grandfather or old man which I sure if you wanted to could allow you to go ham on theories if you wanted.

  23. 6 hours ago, Here&#x27;s Looking At You, Kid said:

    The Starks became rebels when Robb was declared king.  That was illegal and like putting the cart before the horse.  The Starks needed to win their war for independence before Robb can be king.  Roose Bolton was protecting King Joffrey in killing Robb Stark.  The victors can rewrite laws and even rewrite history.  It doesn't mean it's right but who can say it isn't legal. 

    The violation of the sacred tradition was Walder's fault.  He was the host. 

    Two points. Roose owes Joffrey absolutely no loyalty. He sworn no oath to him whatsoever and legally owed more loyalty to the Lord of Winterfell who was executed on trumped up treason charges.

    Two legally Robb had every right to be King. He'd been support to be declared as such by his Northern Bannermen and the Riverlords. Arguably he had more right to be King in the North and King of the Trident than Joffrey ever had as King on the Seven Kingdoms even after his victory. I guess it depends whether you believe in divine right of kings or popular sovereignty ( in this case the people in question being the lords and landed knights rather than necessarily the general populace).

    A third point even if Walder was the host Roose was clearly a big part of the conspiracy around the Red Wedding and without his involvement Walder may have elected to be more cautious in his methods of ensuring the Stark's downfall rather than open breaking of guest right. Roose is still guilty of conspiracy to breech guest right even if technically he wasn't the host.

    One last point of Roose. The only reason he opposes Ramsey killing Barbrey Dustin and turning her skin into boots is that she is one of the few certain allies Roose can count on and as such needs her support and that Human skin boots aren't very good. The only difference between Roose and Ramsey is that Roose has just enough intelligence and self control not to do something stupid that people will hear of it and to keep his crimes nice and quiet. No doubt the list of his crimes against his smallfolk are almost as long as Ramsey's.

  24. 10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

    Problem I have with Braavos in general, is they do not like the Dragons or support them. So even the Sea Lord of Braavos having any concern or care for the wedding or survival of two dragon seeds, seems unlikely.

    Not the least, on how Daenerys got from Dorne or Westeros to Braavos where she possibly became connected to Viserys. A Targaryen should flee to Lys, Tyrosh, or Volantis. Not Braavos of all places. 

    Given that the Targaryens haven't had dragons in over a century by the end of the rebellion the Targaryens are little different from the Valyrian nobility of Volantis or elsewhere with a major difference they at least in part hold Westeros stanch opposition to chattel slavery. Dany herself confronted with the Horrors of slavery tries to put and end to it with little success. No doubt the Sea Lord thought that a grateful restored Targaryen dynasty would be strong allies against the Slave Cities in Essos.

    Dany didn't have to travel to get to Viserys she was with Viserys the entire time. She's never been to Dorne of that much I'm certain.

    10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

    The Clues pointing Daenerys to Dorne and the Dayne Heiress, are a lot. Way too many to ignore imo. 

    No there is virtually none. The only serious 'clue' is a comparison by Barristan to Dany looking a little like Ashara's daughter. Given that Jorah thinks Dany looks like Lynesse surely she could Lynesse's daughter as well if it wasn't for the fact that Dany is Rhaella's daughter born on Dragonstone.

    10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

    How and when she got to Braavos is a mystery, but I don't think there is much mystery regarding her connection to Dorne. Oberyn wanted to raise Dorne for Viserys in first year after Roberts rebellion, and having the Sea Lord witness a pact between Oberyn Martell and Willum Darry/ William Dustin.

    The Targaryens have Dornish support isn't anything new. Also Willium Darry isn't William Dustin the two are distinct characters and there isn't some false identity stuff going on here.

    10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

    With Oberyn having ties to Maester Walgrave, and Maester Walys through him, who was Maester to Winterfell. Points more to the idea that Willum Darry, was actually William Dustin. 

    It doesn't. Maybe Maester Walgrave and Oberyn knew each other but nothing really connects onwards. Willum Darry was a known master of arms at the Red Keep. He can't suddenly become William Dustin after years of service to the Targaryens.

    10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

    Who ever Dany's father is, her mother seems to be Ashara Dayne from Dorne. With Northmen protecting her, possibly though just cause Eddard liked Ashara so much, and doesn't approve of killing babies. So a Targaryen baby born on Ashara Dayne, would need to be protected possibly and or hidden.

    Though a Stark/Dayne baby accidentally grabbed and mixed up with Rhaella's baby, is possible.

    The only Northmen protecting Dany if Jorah who arrives years after the supposed arrangement would have occurred and nothing suggests Dany was born to Ashara Dayne. She's called Stormborn because she was born in such a massive Storm and Dorne simply doesn't get the Storms the Stormlands/ Narrow sea gets.

  25. 1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

    Problem I have so far with Dragonstone, is that she left as a baby we are told. With Stannis taking Dragonstone, I don't see how she could be there later when she was old enough to remember stuff. Where as she could be in Dorne till she was old enough. 

    The problem with Dany and Viserys being in Dorne is how do they end in Essos? If they were in Dorne somewhere why did Oberyn and Doran suddenly dump them in Essos? Why does Viserys have no knowledge of certain Dornish support for him?

    Wherever they were it must have some connection to Braavos since the Sealord of Braavos was a witness to the marriage pact Williem Darry agreed with Oberyn (also would the Sealord freely be able to visit one of the regions of Westeros and not the capital). I think probably some Embassy of Braavos in another Free City or maybe a Braavosi outpost or town along the Coast near Pentos. It depends on how far north Lemon trees grow in Essos to limit their location.


    The Rest. Well the number of times doors and Stars are mentioned next to each definitely seems a little high to be purely coincidental. I doubt anything much will come of it but well who knows.

  • Create New...