CamiloRP

Woah. Thanks a lot!

thanks! Yeah, the stories omitted from it are really weird to omit too

Hi! does anyone know which GRRM works are and aren't in Dreamsongs? I googled, but I'm lousy at it. Thanks!

Here you go

*sigh* that was never the point of those posts, also, it was a pretty extensive post with a long list of points, you may not agree with it, but I don't think you can call it baseless

This is with out question, the best theory I read in this forum

I figured you weren't, I wasn't trying to imply you were, but rather trying to explain why I think that's not enough of an explanation for why a gay guy would cheat on his wife. George is a pretty progressive dude and has written really good LGBT stories, and I doubt he would write something like that. That's why I don't think it's enough of an explanation, which doesn't mean that Rhaegar couldn't be attracted to Jon Con if someone wants to theorize about that, bisexual/pansexual people are still a thing. Yes, I get this. The problem is that it would make it seem like the story's saying that gay guys can't be openly gay or the world ends, which is something many people believe, having one of the few gay characters in the story have heterosexual sex or the world ends just rings wrong to me, like @EggBlue explained: If you'd have to have sex with someone you don't want to to save the world, how would you feel? like, I'm sure you'd do it, after all, you are part of the world, but still, it'd feel pretty awful, you may even feel like you were raped. And for LGBTTQIP+ people, reading about it can create trauma, not just reading about a gay guy having straight sex with someone they don't feel attracted to, that happens, but the story seemingly claiming that to be good, or else the world ends, which is something many of us have been told at least one time, and doesn't feel good. It would be like a Black person reading a book that ends with one of it's only few black people saving the world by letting themselves be slaved by a white man. That would be traumatic for most of them I imagine, and it would make me feel that the author is pro slavery.

Nope, as an individual action no, but if the story seems to validate one and not the other, then yes, am I explaining myself? One thing is one guy cheating on his wife and having sex with a teenager because he's an asshole and a creep, that's awful, but it happens, and having it in your story by itself doesn't mean anything, no more than Breaking Bad means Vince Gilligan is pro narcoterrorism. By having a gay guy saving the world by having heterosexual sex it's too easy to interpret it as saying 'if people have gay sex, the world ends' which is also an actual belief many people have, and a dangerous one. Something similar happened with GOT's ending, having death and rape in the show was no problem on itself, in fact, at times, the show seemed to use it to criticize such violent acts, or show the effects of war, or whatever, the problematic thing came when those things got justified, Sansa was raped, and it was awful, but it's okay, because it made her strong, and if she wasn't strong Jon would've never beaten Ramsay, and if that would've happened, then the Others would've likely won, therefore Sansa's rape was a good thing, as presented by the story. Am I being clear? (I don't write this bit to be passive aggressive, I genuinely doubt I'm being able to explain myself)

Not that I'm a huge fan of the theory, but if Serra was already married to Illirio she wouldn't be a suitable bride for Rhaegar. Also, it's questionable if Aerys would think an unconfirmed daughter of a bastard traitor as a suitable choice. Valiryan blood wasn't Aerys only requisite, or else Steffon would've returned west with a Lyseni whore, and a the married maybe daughter of a traitor bastard isn't much better than a whore (in Westerosi society)

I mean, yes, because that's just an asshole being an asshole, not the universe requiring a good person to suffer to continue existing, also it would send really big homophobic vibes

That would make a pretty horrible story: 'in order for the world to be saved, a gay man must fuck a woman'

The thing is not that you killed 'everyone' but rather that you killed almost everyone important, let me explain myself I think this is a genuine possibility, he might stay dead, but for that to happen, his story needs to still serve a purpose beyond knowledge about the Others. it needs to have ramifications throughout the world, like Ned's death did, he died and that as the jumping off point for both the war and the story of most of his children, Jon's death needs to have a purpose greater than that, because we've known him for five books, Ned didn't even make it to the end of the first one. That can't happen in your predictions tho, because you kill off anyone who's story would be majorly influenced by Jon's death, yeah, Sam would get sad and Arya would get angry, but that's not enough to justify all those Jon chapters. Same thing happens with your prediction of Bran's death, most of the world already thinks he's dead, so his story would serve no purpose where he to die without doing anything of note, and finding out the secret of the Others isn't enough in my opinion, as he dies right after that and either doesn't communicate it to anyone or if he does they don't have the resources to convince people. This I find hard to believe, Theon's execution has been talked about enough that I think something else would happen. Generally when George talks about something that's about to happen, it doesn't. Here we have the same problem, and Asha's story would be pointless if all she did was loose the kingsmoot and the die. George said Rickon was really important, so I doubt he would just come back to the story to die again. Why bring him back? This goes against all of the themes in Brianne's storyline (at least in my opinion) the themes of choice, following vows and such, why would Brianne serve a monster like Stoneheart? Why would Sansa and Harry wed at Harrenhall if everyone's already at the Vale? specially given how much safer the Vale is. Why would Arya and the Brootherhood attack at the same time? Also, what would be Arya's assignment? FM can't kill someone who's name they know. Again, turning Arya's and Sansa's stories pointless. Also LF, what was the point of him if in the end he was just going to be killed by guerrilla fighters and accomplish nothing? Why would the brootherhood want to harm Sansa? This would be a repeat of AFFC and therefore pointless. So everything was pointless, all the Arianne, JonCon and Cersei chapters where pointless, cause in the end they where going to be killed by a sudden Other army that wrecks KL? That would be very bad writing, a waste of time really. So, generally there are six POVs considered the main POVs in the story: Arya, Bran, Dany, Jon, Sansa and Tyrion. You killed four out of six and didn't even mentioned the other two. Also, of the remaining POVs you killed, let's see: Davos, Asha, Theon, Cersei, Brianne, JonCon, Arianne, Jaime. So a total of eight, having only Mel, Aeron, Victarion, Aereo, Sam and Barristan. So six, and the least important five out of fourteen I would say (plus Sam), Mel, who has only one POV in the entire series, Aereo, who has only two and the personality of bowl of rice and Victarion, Aeron and Barristan, who lead any deathpool made by fans, Barristan is even believed to have been made a POV just so George could have one in Meereen. And there's also that problem, half of your remaining POVs are on Meereen, how would George cover the events in the rest of the world? or you think the Others will wipe out life from everyone north of Oldtown? Then, that's definitely a lot of death, really nihilistic, like many pointed out before me and also, makes all the story that came before incredibly pointless! What was the point of the WOT5K? of the Red Wedding? of Bran's powers? of the problems with the Freefolk? of the famine caused by war? of Littlefinger's scheming? of Doran's scheming? of Varys scheming? What's the point of Stoneheart and the Brotherhood? what's the point of the Nights of the Vale having stayed out of the war? What's the point of Howland Reed? of Stannis going North? of Stannis killing his brother? What's the poin of Jaime's story? What's the point of the Iron Throne's debt? For this story you are proposing, wouldn't it be a better one if we'd skip every non Daenerys chapter? wouldn't the story of a refugee little girl who lost her homeland to an army of icy zombies building an underdog army and leading her compatriot refugees to their home be better than the story of complex politics and war in a country that gets completely exterminated by an unstoppable force only to later be claimed by an army of foreigners?

Fuck! that's true!

@Lunabricot @Tucu My thinking, and I'm nowhere near sure this is the case, but I find it the most likely, is that the COTF are playing both sides, sending visions to both Men and Other to drive war between them and take Westeros back from them. I think they needed someone to get the Direwolf mother south by opening the Black Gate while simultaneously leading the LOWF to the puppies, so they can have influence over the family of the GOTN. After all, we see the DW alter the minds of the Starks and Ghost is the one who finds the corpses who then try to murder Mormont. Love this observation

The problem with this is that it's really unlikely, bordering on imposible for him to have survived climbing the Wall for the first time without preparation, gear and while shitting his pants.