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RedDragon

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  1. I hope this is role playing. first off it could be argued ned was just as much of an oathbreaker as his children. Going with the rlj line of reasoning he decided to poison his relationship with his wife and lie about having a bastard to fullfill another oath to his sister or he just had a bastard breaking his marriage vows regardless. it’s kinda a reductionist view on the whole themes of honor to say they’re without honor, oath breakers sure but when you swear contradictory oaths that tends to happen. the stark family is willing to forswear oaths or their own personal honor for the honor of others, Jon did it for arya, Rob did it for Jayne, and Ned did it for lyanna. “A lie not without honor” ned said to arya about lying that her wolf ran away. It kinda shows that ned and by extension his children viewing the sacrifice of their own honor for others as noble even if it requires a normally un honorable act like lying or oath breaking And I personally tend to agree with them
  2. The word of a commander of the highly esteemed nights watch who holds a varyrian steel sword who has done great exploits like safe the previous lord commanders life, and heir to the legacy of the well loved eddard stark and brother to the young wolf versus the lords who help red wedding many of his own fellow vessels isn’t gonna go well for team Fillet people. men are not ruled by laws we’re ruled by men. It doesn’t matter half so much of what is or isn’t stupid or lawful all that really matters is what people think and we’ve been giving ample evidence that regardless of what you or I think the lords of the north are very predisposed to taking jons side over the Bolton’s
  3. I think what people miss when they make that argument is that Jons written legal reason to do that is not “he was a bad man and killed my dad” it was his insubordination in fallowing his lord commanders orders. It does not matter at all if it’s believed Jon was elected properly. Like literally not at all not only that but Jon gave him plenty of opportunities to fallow his order, which where also mind you completely reasonable within the duties of the nights watch. Jon gave him 3 warnings to fallow his command, Janos ignored him. And instead of sending him there where he would become a deserter so he executed him. Jons reasonings were very sound and accurate
  4. His announcement at the hall was the conspirators pretext to Assassinate Jon Snow BECAUSE he was doing his job. By that point you can argue that they already betrayed their vows to stay out of politics by giving ANYTHING to stannis. theres also a bunch to be said for the fact that in context Jon decided to march because he, the lord commander and head of the nights watch was in all intent and purposes threatened. Once a commander on that level is treated like that it basically spells the end for any organization.
  5. The second or third son of the Royces wouldn’t be a good choice for a first daughter of the lords paramount of the north and a bloodline that’s been Kings since the age of heroes till aegon came. Arya would be more in line and that would still be a step up for a son that’s not inheriting. it’s also not a matter of inheritance marrying a daughter not really it’s about friendship with the house that you’re marrying them to. Only if you extinguish a house in the male line will you be able to lay claim to the castle which is still a worthwhile advantage. Anyways I’m not even sure how ned would handle marrying his daughters off in normal circumstance, it was Catlyn who wanted to marry Sansa off to Joeffery, Ned was on the verge of refusing Robert.
  6. Strangely enough despite machiavelli part in popular culture in the prince he says it’s better to have the backing of the people than the ruling class. Well that was my reading of a passage anyways her biggest mistake was not uprooting the mereen nobles enough, they keep talking about her being a barbarian and that her bowing to their will was that of a true ruler but I think that’s only said so they can play her and they did. Tywin would disapprove of the half measures she’s been taking
  7. I never didn’t admit that the point that I spent the most time on was that using it as an argument for Theory isn’t as good of an argument that people think it is.
  8. In all honesty I don’t think Tywin ever thought that Jamie wouldn’t leave the Kingsguard at some point. there was probably some level of denial in it but I’m sure he had a plan to get his wanted heir to inherent the rock.
  9. Browsing theories and predictions I’ve seen a bunch of people make use of “defying expectations” as part of their arguments either for or against something and I don’t really think it’s the nuclear option that people think it is, an argument to pull out of your pocket to prove to the opposition that you’re correct cause George is the guy who wants to shake up those fantasy troupes. Which is true mind you but it doesn’t really mean what you think or want it to. Not because of what it means but because it means so much. It doesn’t always have to mean doing the opposite of what you expected, it can mean you get to the same destination but the getting theres is twisted and warped. The devils in the details. Take for instance the jon and dany pairing. They’re both the “heroes” or as close to it as westeros can get but their coupling is incest. The troupe may be well known but playing with a troupe can be just as good as not fallowing it. Look at brans involvement with the three eyed crow yes bloodraven is the three eyed crow, the journey is meant to invoke the hero off fo find his Gandalf but instead of a Gandalf all proud, wise, and an angel we find a corpse hooked up to a tree with worms in his eyes. This isn’t an rlj post so I’ll do my best not to get too much into it but it’s in the similar camp of the lost prince troupe or the hidden royalty. Assuming it is true of course we haven’t really seen how it would be that different to its contemporaries in text as of now imo. We haven’t seen anyone react to it the show doesn’t count so there’s nothing really to compare it to. We might be able to infer that jon wouldn’t think to highly of his actual father and might prefer eddard. He might not even tell anyone if he was the only one to know which would be a twist so to speak. ( I lied please stop bringing up Martins wife commenting that rlj doesn’t sound like something George would do. I haven’t ever seen the source and a side comment made at a cocktail party does not equal dnd being asked who jons parents are for them to make the show) Sorry couldn’t help myself. Anyways the point I’m trying to get across is that a theory defying expectations in a lot of senses is a matter of perspective and how familiar you are with the troupes. I didn’t go too much into it but I’m assuming we’re talking about good subversion of expectations which still requires work(even plot twists) and tons of setup. Which at the heart of it is about leading your audience one way only to reveal it was a different answer all along that seems to fit only after it’s been revealed. Like telling us that jons mother could most defiantly probably be ashara dayne and ned but it turns out to be lyanna and rheagar If the the rlj talk made you too upset just tell me what your favorite example of Martin subverting expectations is. mine is that a good person doesn’t automatically mean a good king. Like Baelor the blessed(sorry about the targ name) is well loved but imo was a pretty bad king and more well read people in universe seem to agree
  10. This is an unhealthy amount of targ or dany worship. the starks opinion matter probably because they lead the north for thousands of years and have done a pretty good job of it. Jon didn’t pick of a fight with the lords of the north the letter if we’re assuming it’s real to begin with which is far from certain was Ramsey picking a fight with him to protect “arya” the legality of which does not matter at all cause the lords of the north are just chomping at the bit to kill every frey and Bolton they can get their hands on. It seems like people are perfectly okay with pointing out how young and thus inexperienced Jon is yet they apparently fail to remember dany is around the same age. While she is a decent leader the same as Jon a bunch of her success comes from having 3 flying nukes when no one else does and a group of highly skilled people coming to her more because of her name and the opportunity she presented. I guess this doesn’t mean much to anyone who thinks dany did a bang up job in Meereen which to that I have to say absolutely not. Meereen is figuratively on fire if not literally because of dany ineptitude and no her good intentions does not make her rule anymore of a garbage fire
  11. Jon’s betrayal has more to do with a handful of highly placed black brothers that are both short sighted and so stuck in their misplaced notions that they can’t see the danger in leaving the others a bunch of possible fodder for their undead army. Jon’s mistake wasn’t political or a lack of good leadership it was that he loved his little sister too much and didn’t want her in the hands of a northerner that would threaten a high officer of the culturally revered nights watch. I guess the alternative is you believe that the steward that fell for Mances feints is a decent military leader.
  12. The bigger picture would be humans including wildlings versus the scary ice demons, you can’t get much bigger picture than that or unless you side with with the nw officers that they should feed the armies of the dead you do you. being a good politician and a good leader are two very different things in this universe. Varys and littlefinger are good politicians but they’re not leaders, there’s nothing about either of them that inspires people to fallow them or bring much lots loyalty. up until the pink letter Jon Kinda had it to where non of the conspirators could touch him without inciting awful drawbacks, he won the bid for lord commander after all in no small part by being a warrior who lead the defense against the wildlings while a steward was busy falling for obvious feints. idk how pointing out the north loving the starks over stannis helps your case. In fact it doesn’t, it proves that Jon’s advice is what gained northern support for stannis and if thats not good politicking quite honestly I don’t think you know what it would look like. jons flaw btw is that he loved his family more than his honor which was neds fault and it was in some ways Catelyn fault and most people give one or both of them the pass so I don’t see why the same consideration can’t be given to Jon
  13. This what? I’m not asking for quotes or anything but Whenever you all point to Jon being a bad politician or a strategist everyone just pats each other on the back like it’s a done deal. ive pointed out plenty of instances where we see jons ability to rally men, martial prowess, or intelligence. Give me something to actually work on. Also to everyone who seems to have forgotten Jon didn’t say the NW oath as soon as he came to the wall. Throughout game of thrones he laments how much it sucks there and how it would be cool to go back but he can’t cause Catelyn. Also everyone seems to be downplaying theons roll as a sort of advisor to Robb, he was probably the one to convince Robb that he should treat with his father and Catelyn notes multiple times a “knowing smile” from Theon, which could mean a bunch of things and one of them would be that he has had a hand in Robs decisions.
  14. No it’s not. The north doesn’t care for stannis the only thing that brought them into the fold was how stannis fallowed the advice jon gave him and later it was his victories which stannis only achieved because of the clansmen he gained from Jons advice. When stannis sent the lords of the north letters he was denied each time. He got stabbed in the back because he fallowed neds advice not in spite of it. Combined that with the other nights watch not seeing the bigger picture
  15. You missed before that where Catelyn made it clear that Jon would have been kicked out with no where else to go as soon as ned left I believe ned exclaimed how he didn’t know she could be so cruel. or when Jon found out how bad the nights watch was that when he would think about leaving he would remember how Catelyn wouldn’t have welcomed him back in. So yeah maybe I’ll maybe grant you that she wasn’t instrumental in sending him there but she was in keeping him there
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