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Everything posted by RedDragon

  1. Wow most of you really view the free folk less as people and more the monsters Jon is actually trying to fight. that’s morally and strategically the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. good to know all of you would take the stewards tactical advice over someone who has had actual training on the matter. we best make sure the ice demons have all the ammunition they could ask for, why stop the world ending threat when the raiders are just so mean. Ignoring all that for a sec the wildlings are already past the gates the nights watch doesn’t have the nam power to stop them and they lost most if not all of their known component military leaders. “What about the seven kingdoms or iron throne wouldn’t they help now that Jon snow is dead” I hear you say while a fly goes in one ear and then out the other. no, stannis is off sieging winterfell, the storm lands are being invaded, dorne is too far away and too focused on revenge, highgarden is catfighting with Cersei who no wouldn’t help anyways, the vale is on littlefingers strings who may want winterfell but they’re waiting for the right time, euron would probably be stoked the ice Demons are coming and the river land are on fire. but hey at least the evil wildling sympathizer Jon snow is dead right?
  2. I think I agree with the sentiment that all of the stark siblings were intended to marry into southern houses outside of the north. it could also be possible that Barbrey’s father didn’t want her to marry a stark that wasn’t the heir so he turned his attention to more immediate matches. After all it was far from certain at the time that Brandon would go on to get himself killed
  3. I think most of dany problems arise from being indecisive, she constantly bounced between her family moto of fire and blood and wanting to be a gentle ruler and you really can’t be both. Someone who sacks a city isn’t responsible for setting up a ruling council after they sack it but dany choose to try but because she didn’t truly think it through or commit it fell apart. Just to be clear the problem is she wants to be a gentle ruler not a fair or honorable one. Ned, Jon, even one of dany ancestors the old king who were considered great and honorable rulers were not “gentle” they wouldn’t for example take hostages then not use them, there’s a reason why barriston’s job was “protect a guy” and nothing more complicated than that. dany other problem is she has to commit to wanting the seven kingdoms or being queen of Meereen, you could maybe have both one day but probably not in your generation, you have to commit to one or the other or else you fail at both. Having a lot of people in your Entourage having joined you to go back to the seven kingdoms also isnt the best of moves. If this was any other group that’d be a recipe for getting backstabbed and left to bleed out in the snow.
  4. I don’t think it was a single point but the combination of a series of escalating factors that brought out the worst in Cersei. At this point it was more that everything inhibiting her has left, her father is dead, Tyrion is gone, and Jamie is avoiding her. So it’s less of us seeing her finally lose it which she has lost it it’s more like we’re seeing her act freely. I keep seeing the murder at 10 as an example of her having past the point of no return and while it is a vile act she was also 10. Cersei was 10. One more time for those in the back she was 10, what you do at 10 is not the what sets your destiny in stone. An indicator sure but the deal breaker no. I think we can all brain storm what has lead her to this point so I’m not really gonna go into it I just think it’s trying to fit a square peg in a triangle hole in saying the actions of a 10 y/o solidified her destiny. Bit of a gross oversimplification
  5. Yeah I agree. It was the weakest part of my argument, it was a downward spiral since at the very least neds death. But that can be argued
  6. Did you learn to write essays or provide evidence? Cause that’s literally not true you gotta prove they’re straight forward and what they mean. That’s essay writing 101. Sorry that’s how evidence work, people can have 10 interpretations of the same sentence once context as deep as asoiaf is involved.
  7. I apologize I had the books via audiobook so it’s hard to dig up specific quotes but it is implied she would kill Jon of her children were at risk. It happened in agot when ned is talking to Cersei. She asks if he loved his kids and what he would do to protect them and he thinks to himself what would he do if it was robs life against some unknown then he goes on to wonder what cat would do and dismisses it cause he didn’t want to think about what the answer means. It’s also implied and most agree that cat saw Jon as a threat to her children cause she’s blind and bias so I don’t see why she wouldn’t find a way to have him killed probably by just leaving him to die cause she is a tully and it’s classier to leave a child to die in the woods then it is to kill them you then have the very first cat chapter where ned calls her cruel for wanting to kick a boy out when he’d probably die if they do that so yes I think there’s enough contextual evidence to support that. I also didn’t fail to notice you didn’t mention her killing a simpleton for no other reason than he had frey for a last name so that’s a general win thank you. if by ranting you mean I have my own reasoning to not like a complex character that you don’t agree with then yes.
  8. Those quotes arnt so much in your favor as I believe you think they are. You can quote things but you kinda gotta explain what they mean and how you came to that conclusion. George is really good at being obtuse so just posting them doesn’t do much imo. idk if “trust sucks”is the full translation of that saying but cats problem isn’t that she trusts too much it’s that she trusts too little and respects others too little. Every time she talks to edmure she acts like his mom a mean one at that. You attract more flies with honey as the English saying goes and catlyn stark prefers a sword swing. She’s really good at demanding Curtesy at least in her inner monologue and getting consideration for her situation but god forbid she gives some of it back. she’d rather lash out at edmure when he’s in a Similar situation to her, being married off against his wishes for political gain but instead of a kind word and advice she just tells him to suck it up
  9. That’s like, your opinion man. The only thing in my view that stops her from ordering Jon dead or to abdomen him that he might as well be is ned. In my view. It’s literally just how I see it. I went to great lengths to explain why I see that her actions are different than her motives. So yeah. They are “how could she have predicted what would happen in kl” The point is that capturing Tyrion is hands down a bad move no matter the reason and contradictory to her own stated thoughts. “war can’t happen, riverrun is in danger” **takes Tyrion, is the direct cause for conflict** If she knows about Tywin. And she knows the starks and lannisters are coming to blows. Giving your enemy a casus beli to attack you, is a dumb move irrespective of what precisely is happening in kings landing. timing is everything and she blew it on a rash decision. “She doesn’t abandon them” yes. She does. catlyn is smart but she’s not a battle commander and her patent “just listen to me I’m right” negotiating style is not really suited for good diplomacy. He constant holier than tho attitude and Ik what’s best leadership style has lead her to alienate Rob, the northern lords, and maybe edmure Not seeing them again and staying in the south is abandoning. Full stop. Rickon is a toddler, are you gonna leave your toddler? Not even gonna go it him? The point of that isn’t to look at the causality of the books with the benefit of hindsight, I’m putting myself in her shoes at the time and if I loved my kids as much as cat says she does I would not leave my god darn toddler alone for what half a year? That is the point Cersei being poison to her children is not at all the point. You want me to take catlyn words at face value you have to take Cersei. I didn’t say she was a good mother, I said she professes love for her children. ”he was gonna spill the beans she was there” ooo spill the beans that she was in the riverlands. Where shes from. Better start a war early for that. also you mentioned Tywin in this part in reference to liberating him, idk if that’s a mistake on my or your part but she let Jamie free not Tywin. i guess more on Cersei, yeah she’s a bad person who ordered the murder of babies but as we saw with jingle bells and neds inner monologue killing people hardly related to her children’s safety is no real concern.
  10. That’s a genuinely well written read on the situation. I’d like to offer catlyn gripes are indeed more personal than actually founded. If ned wanted to get Jon legitimized holy hell he could have. Robert is his best friend and Robert himself holds ned higher than his own siblings. for all of her talk of bastards causing problems thats only in the case of the targ and the great bastards who were legitimized which Jon was not. she has a right to be angry and I don’t think people fault her for that. Well they might. What makes the situation tragic is she would probably regret her actions if she knew the truth in the case of this theory or rlj
  11. That’s adorable you didn’t actually talk about Daeron you moved the Goal post. jon breaking his vow has no relation to dearon breaking his, more to the point of you think dearon is fine cause of contextual reasons so is Jon if you’re being fair and you’re not. if Dearon is free to break the law for apparent imprisonment why isn’t Jon allowed to break the law why isn’t Jon allowed when he’s threatened and told to hand over people he doesn’t have? all of this is beside the fact that I wasn’t speaking to the rightness of the acts but to the fact that people are willing to view the situations different do to motive and are thus more empathetic to Jon who wants to save a young girl from the raper and torture extraordinaire Ramsey Bolton Versus the guy who was just really horny and hey those Ice demons are someone else’s problem right?
  12. I think it was a little more meaningful than “man this road trip was rough” towards the end he was speaking about the aa prophecy and other plot relevant stuff so it’d be bad writing Imo to cap that with the obvious statement that maybe people over the age of 90 should go sailing. I think being the key words
  13. Yeah I’ve personally been thinking a lot about this, the similarities are almost too numerous to be an accident. My spicy hot take is that I think cat while a nominally better person than Cersei is still not someone you should aspire to. Tldr she’s not that much better if at all. I think without the benefit of spending three whole books in her perspective and the general fact that she’s on team good guy I do not think she would be as favorably looked upon as she is now. The difference being perspective and context. We knew as the story progressed and as she acts why she did those things right or wrong we are predisposed to believing her. whereas with Cersei we’ve had time to form are own conclusions before we got inside her head and she’s still acting on them whereas cat is dead and judging Alive cat based on the actions of a vengeance zombie would be unfair. There’s a lot to go over but I’ll go for the one I think Cersei and cat are the exact same in and that’s their love for their children. Now I do think they do both love their children yes Cersei does indeed think about others besides herself, Anyways they both say they love their children but they seem to do things counter to those interests. Cat deadass abandons rickon in favor to play war advisor in her sons council, as much as she says how her children are her world o find it hard to believe the women who was incapable of functioning after bran fell would just leave her son. Say to herself “it can’t come to war” and then ten seconds later she gave Tywin an excuse to go to war, then when she’s aware of her sons precarious situation thinks it’s a good idea to alienate northern bannermen on the spitball chance the Lannister’s who arnt famous for their honor or fair play release Jamie on the once again off chance they trade for Sansa. No ones arguing she’s a perfect person or mother but in light of Cersei’s I’m calling them crimes for hyperbole cuddling her kids what cat does is kinda suspect. there’s so much more but I figure it’d be easier to wait for the respectful disagreement and opinions of cat. also I do think they’re both interesting characters and trick of perspective and context is really interesting and I applaud George for crafting such a compelling dynamic and characters
  14. Idk how abandoning the fight to save the world from the impending ice demons to go have lots and lots of sex ensures you to him and makes him seem like a tragic hero/person. if anything it’s evidence that he was a playboy that took advantage of a young girl for sex. Some here seem to just kinda assuming that due to the justice system in westeros being so bad he’s innocent and telling the truth but that’s far from certain and from what we can tell false. legally speaking it doesn’t matter what his crime was, innocent or not he took the oath and deserted. Not even for anything so noble as saving a family member but the guy just wanted to bang some more. So I kinda side with arya on this one especially from her point of view
  15. In reference to “I should not have left the Wall. Lord Snow could not have known, but I should have seen it. Fire consumes, but cold preserves. The Wall ... but it is too late to go running back. The Stranger waits outside my door and will not be denied.“ I think depending on how much tin foil you put in it could mean everything from aemon being aware of rlj to him knowing of the relationship between the starks and the others. I’m honestly not sure, which is why I ask what everyone thinks
  16. The only thing totters of rlj alternatives have managed is to convince me that they’re possible but nothing really beyond that. If it’s not rlj I would say ned and ahsara would be my chosen alternative. I will say I think the reason ahsara jumped out of a tower was because of Brandon
  17. I hope this is role playing. first off it could be argued ned was just as much of an oathbreaker as his children. Going with the rlj line of reasoning he decided to poison his relationship with his wife and lie about having a bastard to fullfill another oath to his sister or he just had a bastard breaking his marriage vows regardless. it’s kinda a reductionist view on the whole themes of honor to say they’re without honor, oath breakers sure but when you swear contradictory oaths that tends to happen. the stark family is willing to forswear oaths or their own personal honor for the honor of others, Jon did it for arya, Rob did it for Jayne, and Ned did it for lyanna. “A lie not without honor” ned said to arya about lying that her wolf ran away. It kinda shows that ned and by extension his children viewing the sacrifice of their own honor for others as noble even if it requires a normally un honorable act like lying or oath breaking And I personally tend to agree with them
  18. The word of a commander of the highly esteemed nights watch who holds a varyrian steel sword who has done great exploits like safe the previous lord commanders life, and heir to the legacy of the well loved eddard stark and brother to the young wolf versus the lords who help red wedding many of his own fellow vessels isn’t gonna go well for team Fillet people. men are not ruled by laws we’re ruled by men. It doesn’t matter half so much of what is or isn’t stupid or lawful all that really matters is what people think and we’ve been giving ample evidence that regardless of what you or I think the lords of the north are very predisposed to taking jons side over the Bolton’s
  19. I think what people miss when they make that argument is that Jons written legal reason to do that is not “he was a bad man and killed my dad” it was his insubordination in fallowing his lord commanders orders. It does not matter at all if it’s believed Jon was elected properly. Like literally not at all not only that but Jon gave him plenty of opportunities to fallow his order, which where also mind you completely reasonable within the duties of the nights watch. Jon gave him 3 warnings to fallow his command, Janos ignored him. And instead of sending him there where he would become a deserter so he executed him. Jons reasonings were very sound and accurate
  20. His announcement at the hall was the conspirators pretext to Assassinate Jon Snow BECAUSE he was doing his job. By that point you can argue that they already betrayed their vows to stay out of politics by giving ANYTHING to stannis. theres also a bunch to be said for the fact that in context Jon decided to march because he, the lord commander and head of the nights watch was in all intent and purposes threatened. Once a commander on that level is treated like that it basically spells the end for any organization.
  21. The second or third son of the Royces wouldn’t be a good choice for a first daughter of the lords paramount of the north and a bloodline that’s been Kings since the age of heroes till aegon came. Arya would be more in line and that would still be a step up for a son that’s not inheriting. it’s also not a matter of inheritance marrying a daughter not really it’s about friendship with the house that you’re marrying them to. Only if you extinguish a house in the male line will you be able to lay claim to the castle which is still a worthwhile advantage. Anyways I’m not even sure how ned would handle marrying his daughters off in normal circumstance, it was Catlyn who wanted to marry Sansa off to Joeffery, Ned was on the verge of refusing Robert.
  22. Strangely enough despite machiavelli part in popular culture in the prince he says it’s better to have the backing of the people than the ruling class. Well that was my reading of a passage anyways her biggest mistake was not uprooting the mereen nobles enough, they keep talking about her being a barbarian and that her bowing to their will was that of a true ruler but I think that’s only said so they can play her and they did. Tywin would disapprove of the half measures she’s been taking
  23. I never didn’t admit that the point that I spent the most time on was that using it as an argument for Theory isn’t as good of an argument that people think it is.
  24. In all honesty I don’t think Tywin ever thought that Jamie wouldn’t leave the Kingsguard at some point. there was probably some level of denial in it but I’m sure he had a plan to get his wanted heir to inherent the rock.
  25. Browsing theories and predictions I’ve seen a bunch of people make use of “defying expectations” as part of their arguments either for or against something and I don’t really think it’s the nuclear option that people think it is, an argument to pull out of your pocket to prove to the opposition that you’re correct cause George is the guy who wants to shake up those fantasy troupes. Which is true mind you but it doesn’t really mean what you think or want it to. Not because of what it means but because it means so much. It doesn’t always have to mean doing the opposite of what you expected, it can mean you get to the same destination but the getting theres is twisted and warped. The devils in the details. Take for instance the jon and dany pairing. They’re both the “heroes” or as close to it as westeros can get but their coupling is incest. The troupe may be well known but playing with a troupe can be just as good as not fallowing it. Look at brans involvement with the three eyed crow yes bloodraven is the three eyed crow, the journey is meant to invoke the hero off fo find his Gandalf but instead of a Gandalf all proud, wise, and an angel we find a corpse hooked up to a tree with worms in his eyes. This isn’t an rlj post so I’ll do my best not to get too much into it but it’s in the similar camp of the lost prince troupe or the hidden royalty. Assuming it is true of course we haven’t really seen how it would be that different to its contemporaries in text as of now imo. We haven’t seen anyone react to it the show doesn’t count so there’s nothing really to compare it to. We might be able to infer that jon wouldn’t think to highly of his actual father and might prefer eddard. He might not even tell anyone if he was the only one to know which would be a twist so to speak. ( I lied please stop bringing up Martins wife commenting that rlj doesn’t sound like something George would do. I haven’t ever seen the source and a side comment made at a cocktail party does not equal dnd being asked who jons parents are for them to make the show) Sorry couldn’t help myself. Anyways the point I’m trying to get across is that a theory defying expectations in a lot of senses is a matter of perspective and how familiar you are with the troupes. I didn’t go too much into it but I’m assuming we’re talking about good subversion of expectations which still requires work(even plot twists) and tons of setup. Which at the heart of it is about leading your audience one way only to reveal it was a different answer all along that seems to fit only after it’s been revealed. Like telling us that jons mother could most defiantly probably be ashara dayne and ned but it turns out to be lyanna and rheagar If the the rlj talk made you too upset just tell me what your favorite example of Martin subverting expectations is. mine is that a good person doesn’t automatically mean a good king. Like Baelor the blessed(sorry about the targ name) is well loved but imo was a pretty bad king and more well read people in universe seem to agree
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