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Mourning Star

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    "Hesperus is Phosphorus"
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    The first star and the last

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  1. When does this happen? If you mean this: "He bearded the lion in his den and tied the direwolf's tail in knots, but even Dagon could not defeat the dragons. But I shall make the dragon queen mine own. She will share my bed and bear me many mighty sons." Then that is a pretty wild leap... especially since it says the "dragons", plural.
  2. He found chambers full of bones, shafts that plunged deep into the earth, a place where the skeletons of gigantic bats hung upside down from the ceiling. He even crossed the slender stone bridge that arched over the abyss and discovered more passages and chambers on the far side. One was full of singers, enthroned like Brynden in nests of weirwood roots that wove under and through and around their bodies. Most of them looked dead to him, but as he crossed in front of them their eyes would open and follow the light of his torch, and one of them opened and closed a wrinkled mouth as if he were trying to speak. A Dance with Dragons - Bran III
  3. The Nameless Faceless Gods of the Children... Great post! I agree that the Children are likely behind both the Others and the Dragons, and I'd suggest all magic in ASoIaF. I think we see this reflected in the House of the Undying, where Men have managed to basically enslave a group of Singers, the Servitors, and their Weirwoods, the Trees of the Shade of the Evening.
  4. Obviously, I'm only speculating, but my take on the names: Laren - I believe literally means of Laurentum, or of the place of laurels. The Greek legend which comes to mind is that of Daphne, and Apollo's unrequited love. Daphne is pursued by Apollo and prays to her father the river god, who turns her into a laurel tree. Apollo being god of the Sun, and of singers (note not only the plot parallel, but the color symbolism with Laren Dorr and his singing, music lightshows). Dorr - means idle or lazy, and obviously sounds like door. But this we know: In an empty castle below a purple sun, a lonely minstrel waits, and sings of her. The Laurel is also the symbol traditionally given to poets (and worn with purple robes by the emperors of Rome, and before that by those given a triumph, marking them as kingly and near divine... kind of like Laren Dorr, but I digress). A classic example of a poet's laurel would be Dante, almost always pictured featuring the laurel crown, as he was depicted by Botticelli. The World of Laren Dorr, is described in the story as a wooded valley at sunset: One moment there was only the valley, caught in twilight. The setting sun hung fat and violet on the ridge above, and its rays slanted down silently into a dense forest whose trees had shiny black trunks and colorless ghostly leaves. The only sounds were the cries of the mourning-birds coming out for the night, and the swift rush of water in the rocky stream that cut the woods. And a dark wood at sunset, where the easy way was lost, is how both Dante's Divine Comedy and ASoIaF begin. Finally, I would be remiss if I did not point out the "mourning-birds", not to be confused with morning birds, because it's the same pun as in my user name! From Wikipedia, on why they are called mourning doves (notice the white/grey parallel to Laren Dorr's clothing): A Huron/ Wyandot legend tells of a maiden named Ayu'ra (probably more accurately spelled Iohara, a common Iroquois girl's name today) who used to care for the bird, who came to love her a great deal. One day, she became sick and died. As her spirit traveled across the land to the entrance to the Underworld, all the doves followed her and tried to gain entrance into the Underworld alongside her. Sky Woman, the deity who guards this door refused them entry, eventually creating smoke to blind them and take Ayu'ra's spirit away without their knowledge. The smoke stained their feathers gray and they have been in mourning for the maiden's loss ever since. The logic behind the story is a play on words—the sound many Native Americans attributed to the bird was "howe howe," and this is also the sound the Iroquoian peoples used to chant over the dead at funerary events. Doves are symbols of peace and love, and were depicted besides Ishtar, Aphrodite, and Venus... the morning star. They are the goddesses of love, Dante ends his Divine Comedy with "The Love which moves the sun and other stars", and the World of Laren Dorr has no stars. When she walks at night, a stranger in a lonely land, does the sky have stars? Edit: My Head Cannon is that Laren Dorr is/was Kayden Candlelight flickered in his eyes
  5. I am not unfamiliar with second breakfast. Bloodraven is an oathbreaker and kinslayer, violated guest right and strang up a priest on the side of the road who spoke against him. He basically had a reign of terror. "Bad business, cutting off the heads of septon. All he did was talk. Words are wind." I think it is very much a fair comparison. As for killing children, I'm not so sure he is innocent of that either. "Rhaegel is feeble-minded. Why, I bear him no ill will, but the man is good as dead, and those twins of his as well, though whether they will die of Maekar's mace or Bloodraven's spells…" Seven save us, Dunk thought as Egg spoke up shrill and loud. "Prince Maekar is Prince Rhaegel's brother. He loves him well. He'd never do harm to him or his." While I believe Egg that Maekar didn't kill them, all three of these Targaryens who stood between Bloodraven and the throne died... Rhaegel died in 215 AC, whilst choking on a lamprey pie. Aelor died in 217 AC at the hand of his sister-wife through a mishap, which left her mad with grief. Some time later, Aelora took her own life after being attacked at a ball by three men known as the Rat, the Hawk and the Pig. On that we agree! Does it? I think it shows that Bloodraven is not nearly as powerful as some speculate. I personally do not believe he was the three eyed crow in Bran's dreams, nor do I think he is masterminding events, with the single glaring exception of the fact that I believe he is responcible for the return of the Others. Let me ask you this, do you think the woman referred to in that quote was Shiera Seastar? Do you think she is still alive? If the answer to both of those questions is yes then I think you need to reassess the meaning of what you quoted. I agree the brother may well have been Daemon. It seems his motivating factor was often the hate of Bittersteal, and would suggest that that more than loyalty to the Targaryens may have motivated him. It may well be that Bloodraven set out trying to do what was "best for the realm", or that may just have been what he told himself. We don't have much to go, I am not so sure. Maybe he thought he could still have children, or maybe he didn't plan on dying. He was already a kinslayer and fear has been known to work. We really don't know what happened but it sure seems like there is supposed to be more to this story of what happened at the great council. If nothing else, Dunk probably fell backwards into saving the kingdom somehow. Hopefully one day we find out!
  6. You can disagree with the method and still appreciate the moral. But it is a story, so second guessing every choice seems silly to me, the hypotheticals are meaningless. The real point, as expressed fairly clearly in my view, is that doing the right thing does not come with any expectation of good results for yourself. What strange fit of madness led you to tell the queen that you had learned the truth of Joffrey's birth?" "The madness of mercy," Ned admitted. "Ah," said Varys. "To be sure. You are an honest and honorable man, Lord Eddard. Ofttimes I forget that. I have met so few of them in my life." He glanced around the cell. "When I see what honesty and honor have won you, I understand why." And yet, this is a story, so I expect we will see it work out. Mercy is never a mistake.
  7. Saying someone deserved to die for showing mercy should absolutely be unpopular. I will grant you that.
  8. Not into the funnies huh? It was just supposed to be a funny response to what I see as a ridiculous viewpoint. If you come away from the books thinking that Tywin's "kill them all approach" is valid, then I just don't know if you can be helped.
  9. I think you make a lot of fantastic connections here, and in general I agree with your conclusions, although I would add a thought or two on top. I think that all magic in ASoIaF comes form men interbreeding with Singers, and this is alluded to by Dany's first vision in the House of the Undying (one of the few places in Essos where we still see Singers, the servitors, and Weirwoods, the trees from which the Shade of the Evening comes). I do not think we have seen a true giant yet in the series, only halfbreeds. It is possible that the "last of the giants" in Westeros are dead and gone, but in this story death is not the end, and we have reason to believe we might see giants awoken from the earth. The fact that giants may have been part of constructing the Wall, and the Umber sigil of the giant in broken chains, may indicate that the giants did not participate willingly. I would also suggest that it is entirely possible that the Singers are not a single united faction, but rather, like mankind, then are made up of competing groups. For instance, some might agree to a peace pact, some might wish to fight. I think it's even possible that the children may have fought a war between themselves way back when... Anyway, great stuff!
  10. I still don't understand the admiration for Bloodraven, or rather I understand it in the same way I understand, but think preople are crazy, for liking Tywin. Bloodraven called the Great Council for the express purpose of skipping over the rightful line of succession. The heir was clear, Maegor. Bloodraven of all people was going to skip over a child because the father was a bad man? Nonsense! Bloodraven's own father was Aegon the Unworthy. Bloodraven had already served as Hand, and king in all but name, for years. I still believe the only reason Bloodraven called the Great Council was in an attempt to have himself named king, being legitimized by the same act that gave the Blackfyres a claim to the throne, and beheading Aenys was an attempt to intimidate the gathered lords into supporting him.
  11. The Others would like a word... Who has been beyond the wall of death to see? Only the wights, and we know what they are like. We know.
  12. And I always made this assumption as well, but in retrospect it may be just that, an assumption. Except that the comet was seen over King's Landing, and Rhaegar used to think the prophesy was about him, born at Summerhall, so we have reason to believe the location for the birth of the promised prince is negotiable for him. It would take no stretch of imagination to call Harrenhall a place of salt and smoke! What if Aegon was born at Harrenhall, and Rhaegar discovered Elia would have no more children before crowning Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty? What if the vision in the House of the Undying is Dany seeing through Lyanna's eyes?
  13. Because we hear a lot about half-human children. In relation to several "elder races", including giants, squishers, and even the Others. I'd even suggest that "blood of the dragon" is directly related to this. It is my belief that all human magic in ASoIaF originates from cross breeding with supernatural creatures, in particular the Singers. I would even go so far as to say this is hinted at by the very first vision in the House of the Undying. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a mix of required blood and circumstance, nature and nurture. Like how Targaryens care so much about inbreeding and also put a dragon egg in the cradle with children. The connection between the Singers and the Weirwoods is not entirely clear to me yet.
  14. Red is also the color of House Targaryen, of blood and flame. Ghost was not with his dead mother, he was all alone off in the snow. There is a lot we could read into this scene. Some Singers who are gifted have red eyes, some have green eyes, like Jojen. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers. I do think there is symbolism to Ghost's eyes being the first to open, and Jon "hearing" the silent wolf in the snow, but I'm not sure I can reach the same conclusions you do. I would argue there is legitimate reason to believe that the abilities are tied to the blood of the person who has them, and so yes, there is reason to think Singers could have interbred with humans in the past causing this "special" blood, while interbreeding with direwolves seems distinctly less likely.
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