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Mourning Star

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Everything posted by Mourning Star

  1. This is a fair take, I suppose I was being a little dramatic... although I stand by the impression I got that he was never a well loved figure. He promised safe passage to the Blackfyre he executed, that's oath breaking, kinslaying, and guest right all in one fell swoop! It's hard for me to give him credit for putting down the Blackfyre rebellions when he is the one who started them. Keeping Dark Sister is a good point, I hope we learn more about what happened there, and what became of her. I expect there is a lot left unsaid so far about the Great Council and the events surrounding it.
  2. Well written response, although I think we still disagree. So now I'm a little confused... trying to brush up on my facts I looked to the wiki which says: The sudden death of Lord Corlys Velaryon in 132 AC raised the issue of the king's successor. When King Aegon was asked who his heir should be, the king offered the name of his only friend, Gaemon Palehair, the bastard-born pretender during the Moon of Madness during the Dance of the Dragons. The suggestion was ignored by the regents. Although Aegon's half-sisters Baela and Rhaena were dismissed on account of their sex, the considered that any sons the twins, in particular Baela, the eldest of the two, would have would be a suitable successor to the king.[12] Which again supports what I was saying... where is it written that Aegon's heir was his sister? I strongly disagree with you here, I think it is directly relevant. Again, I'm inclined to believe the author, and I disagree with you. The 101 council may have established the idea, but it was the Dance which tested and reinforced the prescedent... and the quote simply says it was the reality after the dance. Where is this coming from? I can't find actual evidence of it in text. Baelor doesn't exactly seem the rational type, but I think I understand your point. The wiki sights the world book: The precedents of the Great Council of 101 AC and the Dance of the Dragons were therefore cited, the claims of Baelor's sisters were set aside, and the crown passed to Viserys.
  3. Egg's wife was a Blackwood as well, but I'm not sure this explains the naming (especially considering the timing of it) of Brynden. It is interesting that they mention all the weirwoods being cut down thousands of years ago when we know that wasn't the case. God's Eye and the Blackwoods spooky dead tree aside, Melisandre just burned the Godswood of Stormsend, Riverrun has a weirwood, Harrenhall, oddly enough, has a weirwood despite being only 300 years old and having been burned so badly the towers melted, and Highgarden has three! The Blackfish was named Brynden while Bloodraven was serving as Lord Commander on the Wall, before his disappearance, so I have a hard time thinking it was caused by him. Also, I am highly suspicious of the idea that Bloodraven wants to help anyone but himself! I suspect Edmure will survive, but if he does not the inheritance of Riverrun is a great question.
  4. Your first examples are both literally from the dance of dragons... and no amount of presumptive heirs will change the fact that there has never been a queen on the iron throne in her own right, and each time it has been a possibility they have been passed over. I'm inclined to trust the word of the author over the world book. But, where does it say anything about Aerys I naming a female heir? Baelor's sisters meanwhile are a great example of the precedent for a woman not inheriting the throne... they were passed over in favor of his uncle Viserys, literally sighting the precedents of the Dance of Dragons.
  5. I simply do not think I agree... Bloodraven caused the Blackfyre Rebellions, both instigating with his feud with Bittersteal, and literally by being the one to initiate the conflict sending the Kingsguard after Daemon. I think it's probable that Bloodraven called the Great Council in the hopes of seating himself on the Iron Throne. It's not just Kings Landing that hates Tywin for the sack either... what about Dorne? This is getting off topic anyway, but Tywin brought the Mannisters to power over the bloody corpses of the Targaryen children. It's not that I don't understand the idea that Bloodraven was a ruthless but effective leader from the Iron Throne, but the picture we see of that in Dunk and Egg is not of a successful and happy realm. At no time do I get the impression Bloodraven is or was well loved, and I think there is a pretty strong case to be made using the text against "the ends justify the means" mentality. Is it possible that is just because we didn't see into the Riverlands, I guess? But it seems very odd to me that you would name a baby after an exile as a compliment more than a dig at the one who exiled him. We know the Targaryen's spurned the Tullys and there were repercussions, but we don't know what. I think this is an interesting detail that fits, but obviously it is all speculation.
  6. Not a retcon, nothing was changed (edit: I'm not sure I correctly interpreted the use of the term here... it is new information adding a new angle, just not a substantive change to anything we knew), just classic GRRM gardening style writing... The connection is even raised in the text explicitly: "I have an uncle Brynden," Bran said. "He's my mother's uncle, really. Brynden Blackfish, he's called." "Your uncle may have been named for me. Some are, still. Not so many as before. Men forget. Only the trees remember." His voice was so soft that Bran had to strain to hear.
  7. I loved your analysis, although I've come to a different, rather more "literal" conclusion. Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, and Symeon Star Eyes, were Others in Westeros before the Wall was built. Serwyn: A White Sword, or White Knight of the Kingsguard (before Targaryens, knights, or Kingsguard existed in Westeros) is a reference to being a white walker. The Mirror Shield, clearly doesn't work literally, as Byron proved, but the armor of the others is described as a reflective camouflage. Slew the Dragon Urrax. It would make sense for ice to fight fire, and we know there were once dragons in Westeros before the Targaryens came. Saving the princess from the giants is very interesting, especially since it's not the only tale of a giants' castle. It would be very odd if there was no evidence of a giant's castle or castles left, unless they were built out of ice/snow... like the Wall, which was said to have been built with the help of giants. "Haunted by the ghosts of those he killed" is referring to those he kills being reanimated as wights. Symeon: Another knight before the arrival of Andals. Replaced his eyes with sapphires... sounds a lot like unnaturally blue eyes, like the Others. He fought with staff with blades at both end, and sorcery is described as a blade with no hilt. He once visited the Nightfort and saw the Hellhounds fighting. The Nightfort predates the Wall, and Hellhounds are likely direwolves and/or wargs.
  8. No. Precedent is what it is... it can be changed but at this point, after the Dance of Dragons, a woman's claim comes after all male claims. We even have the So Spake Martin where he says: "women came after all men in the Targaryen succession after TDWD." https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Comic_Con_San_Diego_CA_July_20_232/
  9. Bloodraven certainly was an accomplished military commander... but efficient Hand? I guess that comes down to how you judge. It sure seems like the Kingdom did pretty terribly under his rule, and I never got the impression anywhere that he was thought of or remembered with any sort of love or adoration. It always sounded a lot more like a reign of terror than a local hero making good, at least to me. Also, the second Blackfyre was put down in the Riverlands, but the Tully's are noticeably absent from both Whitewalls and Bloodraven's army (which was made up of Crownland and Riverland houses). The world book does say that the Tullys remained loyal tot the Targaryens through the Blackfyre rebellions, and that makes sense if Egg betrothed his son to Celia Tully... it is only after this is broken off that the Tullys would have felt wronged... and despite Baristan's quote (below) we don't know what the fallout from the Tullys really was. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief.
  10. The timing: Bloodraven Exiled (and Egg becomes King) in 233 Jaehaerys breaks off his engagement with Celia in 240 Brynden Tully is born 243-245
  11. I think people name kids after the person in power to try and curry favor (like Rhaegar Frey, or all those Walders). So when Bloodraven ruled Westeros in all but name, it makes sense there would have been kids named after him. But after he was exiled? Not so much.
  12. I never meant to suggest anyone was trying to snub Bloodraven... how does that even make sense? Bloodraven was very clearly feared and hated long before he killed Aenys, Dunk and Egg make that quite clear. The snub is to Egg. All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father's wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief. Tully is one of the bitter enemies made instead of a fast friend... that is why they would want to snub Egg. Bloodraven was a threat to Egg's legitimacy, just like the Blackfyres.
  13. An honor to whom? The Guy on the Wall? The King who exiled him? I really just don't see it, but maybe it's me.
  14. Where do you get this impression? in the days when the Seven Kingdoms were ruled in all but name by the bastard sorcerer men called Bloodraven. I certainly never got the impression anyone liked Bloodraven, let alone called him a hero! He was sent to the Wall for breaking an oath, violating guest right, and kinslaying! It really doesn't get any worse.
  15. He went half way around the world to find Dany because Jof insulted and fired him. He didn't suddenly decide to support the rightful king. It isn't that Dany has no claim, anyone can make a claim, the question is how good that claim is by the precedents of Westeros... and the fact is there is no precedent for a Queen inheriting in her own right, and many times when a woman has been intentionally passed over. Aegon the Conqueror had no legitimate claim to Westeros, he made his claim with Dragons, and that is what Dany has going for her. It is easy to ignore precedent when it suits, but that doesn't change who has the rightful claim.
  16. A woman has never been queen in her own right... that's what precedents are... and it is literally spelled out in the world book: In the eyes of many, the Great Council of 101 AC thereby established an iron precedent on matters of succession: regardless of seniority, the Iron Throne of Westeros could not pass to a woman, nor through a woman to her male descendents. Neither Myrcella nor Shireen has tried to claim the Iron throne... also did you forget about Aegon? He sure seems to be challenging the claims of both. A woman can obviously hold a lesser seat, but since a woman has never been queen in their own right, and they have been passed over at basically every opportunity, the precedent is real. Obviously, I hope, I'm not defending that as being somehow morally correct or saying a woman could never be Queen, just speaking to precedent. They have pretty clear traditions of inheritance. Someone could always usurp a throne or change precedent... that is always true, but it doesn't change who the "rightful" heir is. They clearly keep detailed records of heritage in Westeros. People can always argue but this isn't really a close call by any stretch, it is like trying to defend Renly's claim. Its not that he can't possibly make a claim, he did, its just very clear it isn't rightful. A man's son comes before an uncle, there is no precedent for going back to the top of the tree and starting over that I have ever heard. Or maybe they all died childless. It's awfully hard to speculate about people who we don't even know exist.
  17. Only if you ignore the precedent that no woman can rule from the Iron Throne. As it stands the line of succession can only pass through a woman if no male line exists... but there is no precedent for a Queen ruling in her own right, and precedent for opposing the idea. While these are possible, it isn't clear to us who, if anyone, is directly descended from the royal line... House Penrose and house Plumm both married an Elaena Targaryen, and both were further back than Daenerys Martell. Likewise, Garmund Hightower marrying into house Targaryen was much further up the tree. Tarth is interesting, but we still don't know what the connection to house Targaryen actually is... Not knowing what happened to Egg's sisters leaves a big question mark to be honest.
  18. Through Daenerys Targaryen, daughter of Aegon the Unworthy.
  19. What I think is more interesting is what if Stannis and Shireen predecease Tommen... or he disinherits them... then Tommen's heir is... Doran Martell?
  20. "we all deceive ourselves, when we want to believe. Melisandre most of all, I think. The sword is wrong, she has to know that . . . light without heat . . . an empty glamor . . . the sword is wrong, and the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness, Sam." - "Be glad that it is just a burnt sword that His Grace pulled from that fire. Too much light can hurt the eyes, my friend, and fire burns."
  21. Is it possible that Brynden "Blackfish" Tully is named after Brynden "Bloodraven" Targaryen as an insult to house Targaryen? Bloodraven was sentenced to death, and choose to take the black and join the Night's Watch when Aegon "Egg" Targaryen was appointed King by the Great Council called by Bloodraven himself. Egg's second son, and eventual heir to follow him on the Iron Throne, Jaehaerys II Targaryen, was originally betrothed to Celia Tully. However, Jaehaerys was in love with his sister Shaera, and she with him. Was House Tully one of the bitter enemies that could have been a friend? Now, the family tree of House Tully isn't exactly clear... it goes something like Medgar - Lord - Lord - Hoster -Edmure, with Celia likely being the daughter of one of the nameless Lords between Medgar and Hoster. Since the first of those was the boy Lord mentioned in Dunk and Egg, who would be the same generation as Egg, this option makes the most sense to me. It would mean that she was likely the sister of Hoster and Brynden's father. Her fate is unclear. Might this even have played into why Hoster Tully was not at the Tourney of Harrenhall, despite the fact that he was married to a Whent? Hoster wanted Brynden to marry Bethany Redwyn, and as it turns out, Olenna "The Queen of Thorns" Redwyn, likely the aunt of Bethany, was originally betrothed to the last of Egg's three sons, Daeron. Brynden refused, although the reasons are unknown to us. Brynden served as a squire to Lord Darry (a family of renown Targaryen loyalists) and made a name for himself fighting against the last of the Blackfyres in the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Naming a child as an insult isn't without precedent in A Song of Ice and Fire. Brynden Tully was born at least 10 years after Bloodraven was sent to the Wall, and after he became Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, but before his disappearance in 252. Brynden Tully was born 5 years after Hoster, and 3-5 years after Jaehaerys broke off his engagement to Celia and married his own sister in 240 AC... meaning Brynden was born around the same time as Aerys. Egg was still king and Bloodraven was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Aerys's son Rhaegar would be born at the Tragedy of Summerhall in 259 when Aegon "Egg" Targaryen died. Brynden, Hoster, Aerys, Tywin Lannister, Steffon Baratheon, Jon Arryn, Rickard Stark, Quellon Greyjoy, and Baristan the Bold would all fight the War of the Ninepenny Kings during the brief 3 year reign of Jaehaerys. Aerys, Steffon and Tywin would become close friends. I think it is interesting the Quellon Greyjoy supplied the fleet, while the Redwyns are not mentioned... nor are the Tyrells, whom Olenna Redwyn had married into after her betrothal to Daeron was ended. Jaehaerys would die suddenly after a short illness at the age of 37... His son Aerys would be consumed by madness and suspicion against those who would plot against him. Aerys would be deposed by an alliance between Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully, Ned Stark (son of Rickard Stark) and the usurper Robert Baratheon. While Brynden fell out with his brother Hoster, he did serve Robert Arryn during the rebellion. Men may forget, but family trees remember!
  22. I would agree that it seems incredibly likely that the crypts of Winterfell connect to the cave systems, which in turn extend beneath the wall, Gorne's Way. The cold pool in front of the Heart Tree is likely fed by the same underground river which runs below Bloodraven's hollow hill. This might have a few implications... Not only do the cave systems almost certainly connect under the Wall, but the Weirwoods may all connect as well. Bael probably didn't hide in the crypts of Winterfell with Lord Starks Daughter and Grandson, but rather returned to Winterfell through the cave system. The blue winter rose from Winterfell... In addition, the wall around the godswood, in Winterfell and all over Westeros, were likely originally meant to face inwards and not outwards... they defended the world from the trees, not the trees from the world... and this may be why the Night's Watch oath speaks of the "watchers on the walls", plural.
  23. I'm inclined to think the house with the red door was in Westeros, probably Dorne, and think it explains a lot of oddities. Or Viserys is just repeating sayings he heard as a child that have meanings he didn't understand. While I see a lot of parallels between Bran and Dany, I disagree the "wake the dragon" dream is parallel to wolf dreams, I think this dream, before the birth of any dragons, is more akin to Bran's falling dream, seeing from above both in a physical and chronological sense... with wings that don't have feathers. I'm not sure how that makes sense with her memories and the HotU vision... but hopefully one day we find out!
  24. The most obvious mirror/foil between two character in the series for me is Ned Stark/Tywin Lannister. Their fathers die when they are young, best friends with a king but the relationship becomes troubled because of relations with a family member (Lyanna/Johanna), raise a bastard/dwarf as a son, promise their daughter they will marry the crown prince, and serve as Hand of the King. So while their circumstances are remarkably similar, their actions are remarkably different. Ned teaches knowing those who serve you, Tywin calls them tools. Ned puts down a rebellion and takes the heir as a ward in an attempt to bind them closer, Tywin destroys the rebels root and stem. For Ned "mercy is never a mistake", Tywin spares only those who go to their knees. Ned goes where fighting is thickest, Tywin leads from the rear. Ned dies for his child, Tywin is killed by his. Ned believes in men, "a wall is only as strong as the man who defends it," while Tywin believes in practicalities and position, "one man atop a wall is worth ten men below it". And of course... Tywin kills the dragonspawn, while Ned saves!
  25. Dany's very first chapter describes Westeros in a suspiciously similar way as the location of the Red Door in her "Wake the Dragon" dream... Compare that to the dream: You have green hills/fields, flowed plains/smell home, stone houses/towers, and banners of lords/ or coats of arms... The only place "You don't want to wake the dragon" appears is in her first chapter and the dragon dream. And what does Dany fear? The cold and howling alone in the darkness. Dragon's roar, they don't howl... wolves do. So Dany fears howling alone in the darkness, and yearns for "arms to keep her warm" (which is a fantastic pun for "banners of lords" or a house sigil). And, as Ned tells Arya about the Direwolf, sigil of House Stark, when the white winds blow, they must keep each other warm. Whether it ends up that Dany isn't really the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella (and is in fact part Stark), or that she will one day marry a Stark (gaining the cloak and sigil of the house to keep her warm), I think it's clearly important!
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