Mourning Star

I like Forley Prester to be the PoV, the knight given charge of escorting Jeyne and Edmure West.

I agree it’s an important chapter, but I don’t agree with all of the interpretation above.

I think the red door is both literal, and represents her past.

For instance, the op notes Dany is hurtling down the hallway towards the red door, “home”, Westeros.

I think this is a direct reference to Dany’s first chapter:

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Somewhere beyond the sunset, across the narrow sea, lay a land of green hills and flowered plains and great rushing rivers, where towers of dark stone rose amidst magnificent blue-grey mountains, and armored knights rode to battle beneath the banners of their lords.

In the wake the dragon dream chapter:

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She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.

“Banners of Lords” are, of course, also called “Arms”.

So what are the “Arms to keep her warm”?

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The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

Dragons don’t howl. Not ever in the series, not once.

But you know what does howl, a Direwolf.

And what do we know about the Direwolf? It is the sigil (arms) of House Stark:

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Remember the sigil of our House, Arya."

"The direwolf," she said, thinking of Nymeria. She hugged her knees against her chest, suddenly afraid.

"Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.

The lone wolf dies, alone and howling in the darkness, the pack survives with arms to keep them warm.

5 hours ago, Evolett said:

There are quite a few parallels between Dany's and Bran's waking dreams.

I agree with this as well, although again with a different interpretation. For one, Dany is running away from the cold darkness, Bran is falling towards it.

I think there is also a literary (almost literal interpretation of the language) way to read Bran’s dream, like I tried to show with Dany above.

5 hours ago, Evolett said:

There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid.

"Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?" he heard his own voice saying, small and far away.

I think Bran has seen the blue-white spires in the waking world already:

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Something about the way the raven screamed sent a shiver running up Bran's spine. I am almost a man grown, he had to remind himself. I have to be brave now.

But the air was sharp and cold and full of fear. Even Summer was afraid. The fur on his neck was bristling. Shadows stretched against the hillside, black and hungry. All the trees were bowed and twisted by the weight of ice they carried. Some hardly looked like trees at all. Buried from root to crown in frozen snow, they huddled on the hill like giants, monstrous and misshapen creatures hunched against the icy wind. "They are here."

And beneath the hollow hill, impaled on the roots of the frozen trees are the bones of a thousand dreamers:

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"Bones," said Bran. "It's bones." The floor of the passage was littered with the bones of birds and beasts. But there were other bones as well, big ones that must have come from giants and small ones that could have been from children. On either side of them, in niches carved from the stone, skulls looked down on them. Bran saw a bear skull and a wolf skull, half a dozen human skulls and near as many giants. All the rest were small, queerly formed. Children of the forest. The roots had grown in and around and through them, every one. A few had ravens perched atop them, watching them pass with bright black eyes.

I think both Dany and Bran are on for a big surprise when they realize the meaning of their prophetic dreams!

31 minutes ago, Evolett said:

Yes and no. I suppose it depends on the purpose of the test. If the ritual is extreme, say like the drownings the Damphair carries out, then passing or failing means surviving or dying respectively. If the bar is set that high then Dany definitely passed her "test" on Drogo's pyre when she emerged unburnt. Viserys fails his treatment, so did Aerion Brightflame. 

Jon is only one of several characters marked by burns and none of these were voluntary affairs or carried out in form of a ritual (except Victarion maybe). In the absence of a proper ritual, these burnings occur at some point in time because the person in question needs to be marked by flame. I've often wondered what this might mean. Perhaps these characters need  to be "kissed by fire" for a purpose. I'm thinking of Sandor, Victarion, Merret Frey, Quentyn and Jorah (these last two were branded). One could argue that the Hound and Merret failed their respective tests, both tormented in different ways after the experience. Quentyn does not survive. 

One thought I have is that the burning may render the person immune to being body-snatched / skinchanged. We've seen the effect fiery magic had on Varamyr - driving him out of the eagle etc. Of the characters in question, this might apply to Jon and Victarion, the burns acting as a means of protection. Any other ideas?

I agree with the yes and no.

A trial can be meaningful and part of a tradition without everyone "passing", and without being lethal.

For instance, the "drowned men" were very briefly drowned and resuscitated, fulfilling the "trial". But we also read of Patchface, who much more literally drowned but lived again.

I'd also point to the Maester tradition of spending a night trying to light a glass candle. Survival and entry into the order aren't at stake, but one still has to imagine it comes from a tradition of testing who could use the candle.

Just my thoughts!

Since it seems that all we can do is speculate, I will do so wildly. 

This section of the world book may provide inspiration for outrageous predictions.

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To speak of what happened next, we must return to the realm of song and legend. The singers say the two hosts came together at the foot of the Giant's Lance, within a league of the house where Ser Artys had been born. Though the armies were roughly equal in number, Robar Royce held the high ground with the mountain at his back, a strong defensive position.
Having arrived days before the Andals, the First Men had dug trenches in front of their ranks and lined them with sharpened stakes (smeared with offal and excrement, says Septon Mallow's account of the battle). Most of the First Men were afoot; the Andals had a ten-to-one advantage in mounted knights and were better armed and armored as well. They came late to the battle, if the tales are true; King Robar had looked for them three days earlier and every day since.
It was dusk when the Andal army finally appeared, to raise their tents half a league from their foes. But even in that fading light, Robar Royce did not fail to mark their leader. His silvered armor and winged helm made the Falcon Knight unmistakable, even from afar.
No doubt the night that followed was a restless one in both camps, for every man there knew that battle would be joined at the break of day, with the Vale itself hanging in the balance. Clouds blew in from the east, hiding the moon and stars, so the night was dark indeed. The only light came from hundreds of campfires burning in the camps, with a river of darkness between them. From time to time, the singers say, archers on one side or another lofted an arrow in the air, hoping that it might find a foe, but whether any of the blind shafts drew blood, the tales do not tell.
As the east began to lighten, men rose from their stony beds, donned their armor, and prepared for the battle. Then a shout rang through the Andal camp. There to the west, a sign had been seen: seven stars, gleaming in the grey dawn sky. "The gods are with us," went up the cry from a thousand throats. "Victory is ours." As trumpets blew, the vanguard of the Andals charged up the slope, banners streaming. Yet the First Men showed no dismay at the sign that had appeared in the sky; they held their ground and battle was joined, as savage and bloody a fight as any in the long history of the Vale.
Seven times the Andals charged, the singers say; six times the First Men threw them back. But the seventh attack, led by a fearsome giant of a man named Torgold Tollett, broke through. Torgold the Grim, this man was called, but even his name was a jape, for it is written that he went into battle laughing, naked above the waist, with a bloody seven-pointed star carved across his chest and an axe in each hand.
The songs say that Torgold knew no fear and felt no pain. Though bleeding from a score of wounds, he cut a red swathe through Lord Redfort's staunchest warriors, then took his lordship's arm off at the shoulder with a single cut. Nor was he dismayed when the sorceress Ursula Upcliff appeared upon a bloodred horse to curse him. By then he was bare-handed, having left both of his axes buried in a foe's chest, but the singers say he leapt upon the witch's horse, grasped her face between two bloody hands, and tore her head from her shoulders as she screamed for succor.
Then chaos ensued, as the Andals came pouring through the gap in the ranks of the First Men. Victory seemed within their grasp, but Robar Royce was not so easily defeated. Where another man might have fallen back to regroup, or fled the field, the High King commanded a counterattack. He led the charge himself, smashing through the confusion with his champions by his side. In his hand was Lady Forlorn, that dread blade he had plucked from the dead hands of the King of the Fingers. Slaying men right and left, the king fought his way to Torgold the Grim. As Robar slashed at his head, Tollett grabbed for his blade, still laughing...but Lady Forlorn sliced through his hands and buried herself in Torgold's skull.
The giant died choking on his last laugh, the singers say. Whereupon the High King spied the Falcon Knight across the field and spurred toward him; should their leader fall, the Andals would lose heart and break, he hoped.
They came together as the battle raged around them, the king in bronze armor, the hero in silvered steel. Though the Falcon Knight's armor flashed brilliantly in the morning sun, his sword was no Lady Forlorn. The duel was done almost before it began, as the Valyrian steel sheared through the winged helm and laid the Andal low. For an instant, as his foe toppled from the saddle, Robar Royce must surely have thought his battle won.
Then he heard the trumpets, ringing through the dawn air, the sound coming from behind him. And turning in his saddle, the High King beheld in dismay five hundred fresh Andal knights pouring down the slopes of the Giant's Lance to take his own host in the rear. Leading the attack was a champion in silvered steel, with a moon-and-falcon on his shield and wings upon his warhelm. Ser Artys Arryn had clad one of his knights retainer in his spare suit of armor, leaving him in camp whilst he himself took his best horsemen up and around a goat track that he remembered from his childhood, so they might reappear behind the First Men and descend on them from above.
The rest was a rout. Attacked from front and rear, the last great host of the First Men of the Vale was cut to pieces. Thirty lords had come to fight for Robar Royce that day. Not a one survived. And though the singers say the High King slew foes by the score, in the end he, too, was slain. Some say Ser Artys killed him, whilst others name Lord Ruthermont, or Luceon Templeton, the Knight of Ninestars. The Corbrays of Heart's Home have always insisted that it was Ser Jaime Corbray who dealt the mortal blow, and for proof they point to Lady Forlorn, reclaimed for House Corbray after the battle.
Such is the tale of the Battle of the Seven Stars as it is told by the singers and the septons. A stirring story to be sure, but the scholar must ask, how much of it is true? We shall never know. All that is certain is that King Robar II of House Royce met Ser Artys Arryn in a great battle at the foot of the Giant's Lance, where the king died and the Falcon Knight dealt the First Men a blow from which they never recovered.
No fewer than fourteen of the oldest and noblest houses of the Vale ended that day. Those whose lines endured—the Redforts, the Hunters, the Coldwaters, the Belmores, and the Royces themselves amongst them—did so only by the dint of yielding up gold and land and hostages to their conquerors and bending their knees to swear fealty to Artys Arryn, the First of His Name, new-crowned King of Mountain and Vale.

Seven times the Andals charged, and were defeated. The last of these was led by Torgold Tollett (Dolorous Ted!).

Then it was on the eight charge that the real Artys Arryn revealed himself and his knights attacked from the rear, having used a secret trail and a body double.

The old families mentioned here are g00d candidates for having modern members being named winged knights.

As is, in my opinion, some trickery involving the "false" death of Sweetrobin.

Now this is the Law of the Jungle — as old and as true as the sky;
And the Wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the Wolf that shall break it must die. 
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk the Law runneth forward and back —
For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.

6 hours ago, Evolett said:

Take that further to one-eyed Bloodraven who's basically sacrificed his entire body to the weirwood in order to reap the benefits of being able to tap into the memories of the trees. 

The Mother marked Lord Rivers on the day that he was born, and Bittersteel marked him once again upon the Redgrass Field.

I would point out that for a literary parallel, Bloodraven has his wine colored raven birth mark, and lost his eye to the sword Blackfyre.

The rebellion ended at the Redgrass Field, nigh on a year later. Some have written of the boldness of the men who fought with Daemon, and others of their treason. But for all their valor in the field and their enmity against Daeron, theirs was a lost cause. Daemon and his eldest sons, Aegon and Aemon, were brought down beneath the withering fall of arrows sent by Brynden Rivers and his private guards, the Raven's Teeth. This was followed by Bittersteel's mad charge, with Blackfyre in his hand, as he attempted to rally Daemon's forces. Meeting with Bloodraven in the midst of the charge, a mighty duel ensued, which left Bloodraven blinded in one eye and sent Bittersteel fleeing.

Jon meanwhile was also marked once by a bird:

Faint scars still marked Jon's cheek, where an eagle had once tried to rip his eye out. 

And once by fire:

He had burned himself more badly than he knew throwing the flaming drapes, and his right hand was swathed in silk halfway to the elbow. At the time he'd felt nothing; the agony had come after. His cracked red skin oozed fluid, and fearsome blood blisters rose between his fingers, big as roaches. "The maester says I'll have scars, but otherwise the hand should be as good as it was before."
"A scarred hand is nothing. On the Wall, you'll be wearing gloves often as not."

I would also point out that when we are speculating about the burned men and the priests of R'hloo, it may be that the burning is a test, and while being scarred might show bravery, it may not be passing the test.

He was no dragon, Dany thought, curiously calm. Fire cannot kill a dragon.

I’m still a believer that Jaquen was Syrio, and that he was in the black cells because Ned was supposed to be sent to the Wall with Yoren, not beheaded.

The series begins with the prologue, in a dark wood where the easy way was lost.

This is how Dante's Divine Comedy begins, which is also what inspired Frost's poem, Fire and Ice, from which the A Song of Ice and Fire series get's its name.

I would be shocked if the series didn't end with some play on, "By the Love that moves the sun and the other stars."

I would suggest that the faith of the seven is a religion that has evolved from the memory of a time worshipping the Old Gods.

The Old Gods are the Weirwoods.

The faith of the seven comes from Andalos, in Essos, where we see evidence that at least once upon a time (I would suggest before the long night and the breaking of the arm of Dorne). The Ifequevron may have been the children of the forest.

The God-Kings of Ib, before their fall, did succeed in conquering and colonizing a huge swathe of northern Essos immediately south of Ib itself, a densely wooded region that had formerly been the home of a small, shy forest folk. Some say that the Ibbenese extinguished this gentle race, whilst others believe they went into hiding in the deeper woods or fled to other lands. The Dothraki still call the great forest along the northern coast the Kingdom of the Ifequevron, the name by which they knew the vanished forest-dwellers.
The fabled Sea Snake, Corlys Velaryon, Lord of the Tides, was the first Westerosi to visit these woods. After his return from the Thousand Islands, he wrote of carved trees, haunted grottoes, and strange silences. A later traveler, the merchant-adventurer Bryan of Oldtown, captain of the cog Spearshaker, provided an account of his own journey across the Shivering Sea. He reported that the Dothraki name for the lost people meant "those who walk in the woods." None of the Ibbenese that Bryan of Oldtown met could say they had ever seen a woods walker, but claimed that the little people blessed a household that left offerings of leaf and stone and water overnight.

Above are mentioned the sacrificing by the Andals off the Swan Maidens, which sound to me like green seers.

I would go so far as to say the trees of the undying are corrupted Weirwoods.

I'm not the first to suggest that Naga's ribs are a grove of petrified Weirwoods.

We see the skinshifters take on aspects of their animals, and I don't think its a stretch to see a connection between this magic and all legends of half human creatures on Planetos.

Targaryens say they have the blood of the dragon, and the story of the nights king has him giving his seed to his corpse queen.

In fact wouldn't be surprised to find all the religions and all the magic rooted in the Weirwoods.

But back to Westeros.

The souls of men go down into the earth and into the trees. This makes the Old Gods not just a form of nature worship, but ancestor worship.

And this is where we can really see a reflection in the faith of the seven.

She found the High Septon waiting for her in a small seven-sided audience chamber. The room was sparse and plain, with bare stone walls, a rough-hewn table, three chairs, and a prayer bench. The faces of the Seven had been carved into the walls. Cersei thought the carvings crude and ugly, but there was a certain power to them, especially about the eyes, orbs of onyx, malachite, and yellow moonstone that somehow made the faces come alive.

Crude carved faces, reminiscent of the faces carved into the Weirwoods. 

And finally, even the song of the seven tells us... think of the children!

The Father's face is stern and strong,
he sits and judges right from wrong.
He weighs our lives, the short and long,
and loves the little children.

The Mother gives the gift of life,
and watches over every wife.
Her gentle smile ends all strife,
and she loves her little children.

The Warrior stands before the foe,
protecting us where e'er we go.
With sword and shield and spear and bow,
he guards the little children.

The Crone is very wise and old,
and sees our fates as they unfold.
She lifts her lamp of shining gold
to lead the little children.

The Smith, he labors day and night,
to put the world of men to right.
With hammer, plow, and fire bright,
he builds for little children.

The Maiden dances through the sky,
she lives in every lover's sigh.
Her smiles teach the birds to fly,
and gives dreams to little children.

The Seven Gods who made us all,
are listening if we should call.
So close your eyes, you shall not fall,
they see you, little children.
Just close your eyes, you shall not fall,
they see you, little children.

On 1/18/2024 at 4:00 PM, SaffronLady said:

A character already thought about at the start but with Targ connexions inserted later?

Depends what you mean by added later.

It would have to be confirmed later since mystery is the point, but I think it was the plan from the very start, and the clues are there.

I don't claim to be the first to suggest this, at first I scoffed, but the more you think about it the more it makes sense. Old Nan is the three eyed crow.

Hair and eye color?

Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, "So, child. This is the sort of story you like?"

She was a very ugly old woman, Bran thought spitefully; shrunken and wrinkled, almost blind, too weak to climb stairs, with only a few wisps of white hair left to cover a mottled pink scalp. 

This nice bit:

 "Dragons," she said, lifting her head and sniffing. She was near blind and could not see the comet, yet she claimed she could smell it. "It be dragons, boy," she insisted. Bran got no princes from Nan, no more than he ever had.

Nan doesn't call Bran a prince.

And she smells dragons in the red comet.

Which is even better next to this:

"I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed them, every one. Sam, we tremble on the cusp of half-remembered prophecies, of wonders and terrors that no man now living could hope to comprehend . . . or . . ."

Aemon sees dragons (and the red comet), he hears them, he feels them, so it's fitting that a Targaryen could smell them too.

Aemon mentions his brothers, and how they all dreamed of dragons, but what about his sisters?

Tears ran from his blind white eyes at that admission. "Death should hold no fear for a man as old as me, but it does. Isn't that silly? It is always dark where I am, so why should I fear the darkness? Yet I cannot help but wonder what will follow, when the last warmth leaves my body. Will I feast forever in the Father's golden hall as the septons say? Will I talk with Egg again, find Dareon whole and happy, hear my sisters singing to their children?

Fear is for the long night!

I would bet that Old Nan is non other than Egg and Aemon's sister, making her a Targaryen by birth.

Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, "So, child. This is the sort of story you like?"
"Well," Bran said reluctantly, "yes, only …"
Old Nan nodded. "In that darkness, the Others came for the first time," she said as her needles went click click click.

Nan clicks her needles as she speaks, and we see "needle" used as a euphemism for a sword, by Arya in particular.

It was looking at him with its deep red eyes, calling to him with its twisted wooden mouth, and from its pale branches the three-eyed crow came flapping, pecking at his face and crying his name in a voice as sharp as swords.

Click click click!

And of course, a needle has an eye.

On 1/18/2024 at 4:13 PM, sifth said:

I don't know, that just seems a little too convoluted if you ask me. There's hardly any Targ's even alive when the story starts and I somehow doubt Jon, Dany or Faegon are the 3EC, lol

It's actually pretty straight forward, unlike trying to explain away Bloodraven not understanding a simple question. 

"Are you really a crow?" Bran asked.
Are you really falling? the crow asked back.
"It's just a dream," Bran said.
Is it? asked the crow.
"I'll wake up when I hit the ground," Bran told the bird.
You'll die when you hit the ground, the crow said. It went back to eating corn.
Bran looked down. He could see mountains now, their peaks white with snow, and the silver thread of rivers in dark woods. He closed his eyes and began to cry.
That won't do any good, the crow said. I told you, the answer is flying, not crying. How hard can it be. I'm doing it. The crow took to the air and flapped around Bran's hand.
"You have wings," Bran pointed out.
Maybe you do too.
Bran felt along his shoulders, groping for feathers.
There are different kinds of wings, the crow said.

The crow in the dream is not confused about what kind of crow Bran means. Bran asks about wings and the crow responds in a way which shows comprehension about what Bran means.

"Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.
"A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words.

I think it's also telling how similar this is to Bran asking Sam the same question, and counting his eyes.

Bran was suddenly uncertain. "Are you the three-eyed crow?" He can't be the three-eyed crow.
"I don't think so." The fat man rolled his eyes, but there were only two of them.

But, Bloodraven is a great fit for the Weirwood in Bran's dreams.

I dream of a tree sometimes. A weirwood, like the one in the godswood. It calls to me.

"There's different kinds," he said slowly. "There's the wolf dreams, those aren't so bad as the others. I run and hunt and kill squirrels. And there's dreams where the crow comes and tells me to fly. Sometimes the tree is in those dreams too, calling my name. That frightens me. But the worst dreams are when I fall."

The eyes are wrong for a three eyed crow, but a two eyed tree is right for a one eyed man with a "third eye".

"Most of him has gone into the tree," explained the singer Meera called Leaf. "He has lived beyond his mortal span, and yet he lingers. For us, for you, for the realms of men. Only a little strength remains in his flesh. He has a thousand eyes and one, but there is much to watch. One day you will know."

...

At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind. When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly.

Finally, I think Ned's words from chapter one, are worth recalling:

"Old Nan has been telling you stories again. In truth, the man was an oathbreaker, a deserter from the Night's Watch. No man is more dangerous.

15 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Tis' about as ironic as the Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise. BR is not a wise old wizard who could fix his legs. Bran chastises himself about being a child for having stupid dreams. End of story.

Fix his legs, as in fix them in place? like roots of a tree? irony?

15 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Do we know how "dream-crossing" works in ASOIAF magic?
 

I don’t understand the question.

15 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Is it a given that not only there are permanent "dream-selves", but the "dream-crosser" knows what their "dream-selves" look like?

The 3EC in Bran’s dream talks about having wings (this alone proves it knows how it appears, and if one appearing in another’s dreams couldn’t remember anything, what would be the point?)

15 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

If not, it remains possible BR is both the tree and the crow. 

The tree and the crow are sometimes in dreams together and sometimes separate, this means they are distinct entities.

15 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

If not, it is entirely reasonable BR does not understand when Bran outright asks him "Are you the 3EC" without further clarification.

Again, this does not fit with what we know.

15 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Seriously, if your theory is not convincing people, ask before you defend. 

Why? People are oblivious of and believe silly things all the time… and repeat nonsense, like the idea that Bloodraven doesn’t know he’s the 3EC, when the text of the original falling dream makes clear this isn’t the case. People ignore the text where Bran says he’s pretending Bloodraven is the three eyed crow.

I posted here because I hate that people still push the terrible theory that Bloodraven is the three eyed crow. 

15 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

At least know why you're not persuading people to your position before you handwave all the little holes in your sieve of a theory away.

Except I’m literally quoting the story and pointing out hard evidence that Bloodraven isn’t the three eyed crow.

15 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

I fail to see from the lines you quote that shows Bran knows BR isn't the 3EC.

He literally says he’s pretending.

Does he know deep down, or suspect, or refuse to believe, or is confused… doesn’t really matter, call it what you want, just don’t call a raven a crow.

14 hours ago, sifth said:

GRRM literally said in an interview, that he planned for the Three Eyed Crow to be a character connected to House Targaryen back in the first book. This alone confirmed it for me. Well that and the fact that Bran literally tells us that BR turns into a crow, while training him in his dreams. He even says the iconic line, that he will teach Bran how to fly.

I agree that the 3EC will be of Targaryen blood, just not that this means it’s Bloodraven.

But Bloodraven/Bittersteel weren’t thought of until way after the first book. The real hint in this quote, imo, is that the 3EC was a character in the story from the start.

I don’t really like the idea of time traveling Bran taking to himself either.

2 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

If you read my whole comment, I concede that it's possible someone else is part of the dream mix. So it sounds like a softer disagree than you are saying.

I still don't quite buy it, but I can acknowledge that there's room for that interpretation, and at very least it was written ambiguously by GRRM.

I think it’s ambiguous who the three eyed crow is still (although I have my opinions), but it’s pretty clearly not Bloodraven, and that’s why I’m always surprised and hate the theories about him being the three eyed crow.

Fun fact, GRRM invented the phrase, the crow calls the raven black, and uses it in some form in every book (as well as dunk and egg).

Raven’s and crows also don’t get along.

When the ravens came the crows would scatter, only to return the moment the larger birds were gone.

And I love this conversation between Aemon and Jon so much but this is the part to highlight here:

"The crow is the raven's poor cousin. They are both beggars in black, hated and misunderstood."

Jon wished he understood what they were talking about, and why. What did he care about ravens and doves? If the old man had something to say to him, why couldn't he just say it?

18 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

You interpret this as GRRM hinting BR isn't 3EC. Perhaps you are even correct.

There are many hints/reasons to believe this, yes.

18 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

But Bran being startled by broken expectations is just as valid.

I disagree. 

Not only are they not equivalent, but right here Bran’s expectation is: “He had thought the three-eyed crow would be a sorcerer, a wise old wizard who could fix his legs, but that was some stupid child's dream, he realized now.”

And, Bloodraven is a wise old wizard!  And the three eyed crow was from a child’s dream… this line screams irony!

18 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

He, as a child, expected a friendly-looking miracle. BR is neither. And that may be all there is to the sentence you quoted.

It doesn’t explain Bran asking Bloodraven point blank and BR not even understanding the question.

This hand waving away all the little details and ignoring the complete story is exactly what I mean when I say I’m shocked that it isn’t accepted by the fandom that BR is not the 3EC.

18 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

And just for context I never watched the show as far as seeing BR on-screen.

Fair enough.

3 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Of course, this unorthodox interpretation raises the question of how Bloodraven would know of Bran and be awaiting his arrival if he didn’t communicate with him in his dreams. And it doesn’t jive with Bloodraven’s own statement above that he indeed visited Bran in dreams. My inclination is to believe the greenseer when he tells us that he was doing greenseer stuff.

Hard disagree, in fact Bloodraven never claims to have spoken to Bran in his dreams, and the crow is not the only being who appears in Bran’s dreams.

Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late."

BR watches, he saw, was part of, was watching… never claims that he spoke to Bran.

BR was probably the brooding Weirwood, who appeared in Bran’s falling dream and again later in his dreams, and was clearly distinct from the crow. Melisandre’s vision of Bran and BR also aligns with this image of him. 

From the first falling dream:

At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind. When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly.

And, from Bran later:

And there's dreams where the crow comes and tells me to fly. Sometimes the tree is in those dreams too, calling my name. That frightens me. But the worst dreams are when I fall." 

And from Melisandre:

A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled.

On 12/18/2023 at 9:03 AM, Hippocras said:

I believe that the Lightbringer myth is not the distant past but rather a hint of something that will be part of the current story. Furthermore, I believe that Lightbringer is GRRM's version of Anduril from LOTR, and so it is actually a sword.
       - Because of this, I do NOT believe that Lightbringer is Dany, or dragons, or Jon etc. Azor Ahai was the Hero. Lightbringer was his sword. There is no point swapping the two.
       - Because of this, I believe that an undercurrent of the story that needs to be considered is how and why this magical flaming sword will re-occur; not just who might wield it.

I tend to think this is exactly the sort of story where the hero can become the villain, or where one man's hero can be another man's villain.

The Last Hero killing Nissa Nissa to forge Lightbringer and then becoming the Night's King (Nissa Nissa being his corpse bride), makes a lot of sense to me.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions and all that...

4 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

And I must say this leading line is where Bran makes it clear he does not like seeing corpses. He is still a boy, after all, nothing shows he either grew out of death revulsion or could discern between what he sees with waking eyes and what he sees in dreams.

A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. 

I think Bran gives the reader repeated hints that BR isn't the Three Eyed Crow.

But, again this isn't crazy deep or new, plenty of people have been saying this since Dance released. I'm just always surprised that the BR=3EC theory persists. Largely I think it can be attributed to the depiction of the three eyed raven in the tv show.

On 1/14/2024 at 7:53 AM, SaffronLady said:

 

Bran III, ADWD.

At least, Bran thinks BR is 3EC. POV style writing conveniently gives GRRM wiggle room that Bran is wrong.

Pretty disingenuous quoting if I'm honest... even if it wasn't intended.

Quote

The sight of him still frightened Bran—the weirwood roots snaking in and out of his withered flesh, the mushrooms sprouting from his cheeks, the white wooden worm that grew from the socket where one eye had been. He liked it better when the torches were put out. In the dark he could pretend that it was the three-eyed crow who whispered to him and not some grisly talking corpse.
One day I will be like him. The thought filled Bran with dread. Bad enough that he was broken, with his useless legs. Was he doomed to lose the rest too, to spend all of his years with a weirwood growing in him and through him? Lord Brynden drew his life from the tree, Leaf told them. He did not eat, he did not drink. He slept, he dreamed, he watched. I was going to be a knight, Bran remembered. I used to run and climb and fight. It seemed a thousand years ago.
What was he now? Only Bran the broken boy, Brandon of House Stark, prince of a lost kingdom, lord of a burned castle, heir to ruins. He had thought the three-eyed crow would be a sorcerer, a wise old wizard who could fix his legs, but that was some stupid child's dream, he realized now. I am too old for such fancies, he told himself. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. That was as good as being a knight. Almost as good, anyway.

Sort of left out the important leading line where Bran is pretty clear BR isn't the 3EC.

8 hours ago, sifth said:

Again, Bran literally tells us Bloodraven takes the form of a three eyed crow, in the final Bran chapter published. Bran also tells us he's training him in this form, in that chapter. I don't know how more on the nose George can be with this.

this does not happen

8 hours ago, sifth said:

Listen, I get it, it's been nearly 13 years since the last book. We're all looking for things we might have missed from these novels, but sometimes a spade is a spade.

this isn't a new idea

21 hours ago, sifth said:

Bran literally tells us Bloodraven turns into a three eyed crow, when training him in his dreams, in the very next chapter. My guess is Bloodraven is unaware that he appears as a crow in Brans dream. Much like Bran was unaware that he appeared as a winged wolf, in Jojen's dream.

It really has been too long since the last book, if this is something people don't understand.

The crow and Bran discuss it having wings in the falling dream, this explanation has never made sense. It's a big reason why Bloodraven thinking Bran means a man of the Night's Watch is such proof he isn't the three eyed crow.

Bran is in error that Bloodraven is the three eyed crow and readers have clues to pick up on this. Like that it's only ever when the lights are put out and Bran is "in the dark" that he calls Bloodraven the three eyed crow.

Neither Coldhands nor Leaf call Bloodraven the three eyed crow.

That Bloodraven is still somehow passing as the three eyed crow for so many this long after the last book came out is shocking to me, hell they even changed it to the three eyed raven for the show.

On 1/11/2024 at 1:08 PM, sifth said:

A related one is that the Three Eyed Crow isn’t Blood Raven

I hate the theory that Bloodraven is the three eyed crow, despite having been asked point blank in the books and him not even understanding the question

I hate the theory that Syrio is dead

18 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

I take the simple view that the Blackfyres are villains.   I'm not saying GRRM does not humanize them to some extent, which is simply good writing.  Villains are people too.  But they are Villains nonetheless.

Counterpoint, I would suggest that both Bloodraven and Bittersteel are "villains", but Daemon Blackfyre was not.

My father says that it was Fireball as much as Bittersteel who convinced Daemon Blackfyre to claim the crown, and rescued him when Daeron sent the Kingsguard to arrest him.

Yet it was a decision he made rashly, for word soon reached King Daeron that Blackfyre meant to declare himself king within the turn of the moon. (We do not know how word came to Daeron, though Merion's unfinished The Red Dragon and the Black suggests that another of the Great Bastards, Brynden Rivers, was involved.) The king sent the Kingsguard to arrest Daemon before he could take his plans for treason any further. Daemon was forewarned, and with the help of the famously hot-tempered knight Ser Quentyn Ball, called Fireball, he was able to escape the Red Keep safely. Daemon Blackfyre's allies used this attempted arrest as a cause for war, claiming that Daeron had acted against Daemon out of no more than baseless fear.

And that Daemon Blackfyre was the brother Bloodraven loved.

"He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves. You cannot speak to him, try as you might. I know. I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it."

On 11/15/2023 at 9:44 PM, KingMaekarWasHere said:

Lord Bloodraven is a master of deception is he not? "A thousand eyes and one!" so they say. Not to mention the Westerosi version of the Master of Disguise! 

I have long believed that Bloodraven is not the Three Eyed Crow from Bran's falling dream, and is responsible for the return of the Others.

This is a theme for Dany right from her very first chapter.

Her brother smiled. "Good." He touched her hair, almost with affection. "When they write the history of my reign, sweet sister, they will say that it began tonight."
When he was gone, Dany went to her window and looked out wistfully on the waters of the bay. The square brick towers of Pentos were black silhouettes outlined against the setting sun. Dany could hear the singing of the red priests as they lit their night fires and the shouts of ragged children playing games beyond the walls of the estate. For a moment she wished she could be out there with them, barefoot and breathless and dressed in tatters, with no past and no future and no feast to attend at Khal Drogo's manse.
Somewhere beyond the sunset, across the narrow sea, lay a land of green hills and flowered plains and great rushing rivers, where towers of dark stone rose amidst magnificent blue-grey mountains, and armored knights rode to battle beneath the banners of their lords. The Dothraki called that land Rhaesh Andahli, the land of the Andals. In the Free Cities, they talked of Westeros and the Sunset Kingdoms. Her brother had a simpler name. "Our land," he called it. The words were like a prayer with him. If he said them enough, the gods were sure to hear. "Ours by blood right, taken from us by treachery, but ours still, ours forever. You do not steal from the dragon, oh, no. The dragon remembers."
And perhaps the dragon did remember, but Dany could not. She had never seen this land her brother said was theirs, this realm beyond the narrow sea. These places he talked of, Casterly Rock and the Eyrie, Highgarden and the Vale of Arryn, Dorne and the Isle of Faces, they were just words to her. Viserys had been a boy of eight when they fled King's Landing to escape the advancing armies of the Usurper, but Daenerys had been only a quickening in their mother's womb.

In my opinion the section above really sets the tone for Dany's whole story. Although, I think the Red Door is more than just a wish for a lost childhood, and more literally a past she has almost forgotten.

Dany sees the sunset in Pentos and recalls the Sunset Kingdoms, home. She wishes to be a child again, rather than being married off to a Khal. This is Dany's first chapter, and the history of her reign (rather than Viserys) does literally begin that night for the reader. But the character Dany's history does not, she has a past which includes the House with the Red Door.

By the end of Game of Thrones, Dany has her "wake the dragon" dream.

The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings. She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.
"… the dragon …"
And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. "The last dragon," Ser Jorah's voice whispered faintly. "The last, the last." Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.
After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars.

Compare the underlined sections of the two quotes above. Green hills and flowered plains/Green fields, Towers of dark stone/great stone houses, banners of their lords/arms to keep her warm. The banners of a lord carry their sigil, or arms.

The arms to keep her warm are, in my opinion, the direwolf of House Stark. The cold receding behind her are the white winds.

"The hard cruel times," her father said. "We tasted them on the Trident, child, and when Bran fell. You were born in the long summer, sweet one, you've never known anything else, but now the winter is truly coming. Remember the sigil of our House, Arya."
"The direwolf," she said, thinking of Nymeria. She hugged her knees against her chest, suddenly afraid.
"Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm. Septa Mordane is a good woman, and Sansa … Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you … and I need both of you, gods help me."

Double meanings abound. The Trident. Remember the sigil of our house. Nymeria, the queen who crossed the water, and a constellation of stars. As different as the sun and the moon, like Dany and Jon.

"Daenerys. Remember the Undying. Remember who you are."

Quaith keeps telling her to remember. 

"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

In the House of the Undying, Rhaegar says there must be one more. I can't help but compare this line to Yoda in Starwars when Luke leaves training (in reference to Leia), after Luke sees his own face in Vader's black helm, just like Dany sees her own face in Rhaegar's helm in the "wake the dragon" dream above.

Then she saw. Her mask is made of starlight.
"Remember who you are, Daenerys," the stars whispered in a woman's voice. "The dragons know. Do you?"

The whispering of stars from Dany's "wake the dragon" dream. 

I think Dany has to remember who she is, she has to remember her own past, and the House with the Red Door, if she is to remember who she really is, making this a plot device and not just a metaphor for a lost childhood.

I find it hard to judge a character we've never seen on the page nor even directly quoted. All we have are second hand accounts largely from those who defeated him.

It would suit Lord Bloodraven if their names were all forgotten, so he has forbidden us to sing of them, but I remember. Robb Reyne, Gareth the Grey, Ser Aubrey Ambrose, Lord Gormon Peake, Black Byren Flowers, Redtusk, Fireball . . . Bittersteel! I ask you, has there ever been such a noble company, such a roll of heroes?

On 11/7/2023 at 3:22 PM, KingAerys_II said:

The Vulture King is associated to House Blackmont, Benedict Blackmont was one of the petty kings Nymeria defeated to be princess of Dorne. 

Why is the son of Aegon and Rhaenys associated to House Blackmont?

Why is the sigil of House Blackmont a vulture clutching a baby? Was it always so?

I certainly make no claims to have proof of anything, just speculation.

On 11/7/2023 at 3:22 PM, KingAerys_II said:

Why should Aenys brother lead an army against his family? 

To avenge the destruction visited upon Dorne during the First Dornish War.