Mourning Star

13 minutes ago, The Duck and the Field said:

Would be kind of funny if the real genesis behind the rebellion was the feud between Bloodraven and Bittersteel, with Daemon and Daeron being manipulated into fighting each other.

If I'm being honest, I think it is almost certainly the case, and we see echos of the same feud with Illyrio/Dragon eggs/The Gold Company and Bloodraven/The Others/The Children of the Forest in the current story

21 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Correct me if I'm wrong.

But the first Blackfyre rebellion only started after Daeron tried and failed to imprison Daemon. 

As far as Daemon knows is not paranoia, they are coming for him.

I think this is the most overlooked detail.

I would question if Daemon ever would have rebelled at all.

Bittersteel may have been for rebellion all along, but I do think it was Bloodraven who started the Blackfyre rebellions.

In the end, years of such talk bore their fruit, and Daemon Blackfyre made his decision. Yet it was a decision he made rashly, for word soon reached King Daeron that Blackfyre meant to declare himself king within the turn of the moon. (We do not know how word came to Daeron, though Merion's unfinished The Red Dragon and the Black suggests that another of the Great Bastards, Brynden Rivers, was involved.) The king sent the Kingsguard to arrest Daemon before he could take his plans for treason any further. Daemon was forewarned, and with the help of the famously hot-tempered knight Ser Quentyn Ball, called Fireball, he was able to escape the Red Keep safely. Daemon Blackfyre's allies used this attempted arrest as a cause for war, claiming that Daeron had acted against Daemon out of no more than baseless fear. Others still named him Daeron Falseborn, repeating the calumny that Aegon the Unworthy himself was said to have circulated in the later years of his reign: that he had been sired not by the king but by his brother, the Dragonknight.

 

22 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

I find this extremely silly.  But I guess it's not worth arguing about.  Maybe GRRM is extremely silly.

Haha fair enough.

12 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

I agree that these passages are related to each other.

I’ll go a step further and say not only not only that, but they are related to the visions she saw on her way into the House of the Undying also.

"I have come for the gift of truth," Dany said. "In the long hall, the things I saw . . . were they true visions, or lies? Past things, or things to come? What did they mean?"

On 7/23/2023 at 3:00 PM, Gilbert Green said:

The joke does not work in this context.  Context matters. 

It's not really a joke so much as slang, or a double meaning.

A woman can absolutely ride a man to bed, there is no problem with the context here.

Obviously, I can't say if this interpretation is how things will play out, but it certainly could work.

On 7/22/2023 at 10:07 PM, James Arryn said:

He had changed his mind.

It seems to me that he changed his mind about being the prince who was promised being himself after learning to use a sword.

On 7/22/2023 at 10:07 PM, James Arryn said:

This is overlooked a lot or wrongly credited to Aemon or w/e, but contrary to this belief that Rhaegar died because he thought himself destined for other things, he changed his mind about his role. Not Aemon, or he’d have said it that way…

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. We get the information through Aemon, but he is speaking about Rhaegar's beliefs.

On 7/22/2023 at 10:07 PM, James Arryn said:

by the the time of the Trident Rhaegar thought Aegon was the PTWP, not himself. And to come to that conclusion at a young age with virtually no one around to consult, operating from old scrolls with, so far as we know, exactly no one else even thinking about zombie apocalypses…that speaks of a very different kind of man than the one I think you’re suggesting. 

I'm not sure what kind of man you think I'm suggesting.

 "As a young boy, the Prince of Dragonstone was bookish to a fault. He was reading so early that men said Queen Rhaella must have swallowed some books and a candle whilst he was in her womb. Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father's knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, 'I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.'"

When Rhaegar was a young boy it seems like he still believed the prophesy was about him and this is why he "must be a warrior." 

We are basically told the answer to your question. Not to say you can’t come up with an alternate possible explanation, but Rhaegar thought he was the prince that was promised and so would be destined to wield Lightbringer.

It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young

…

The prophecy . . . my brother's dream . . . Lady Melisandre has misread the signs. Stannis . . . Stannis has some of the dragon blood in him, yes. His brothers did as well. Rhaelle, Egg's little girl, she was how they came by it . . . their father's mother . . . she used to call me Uncle Maester when she was a little girl. I remembered that, so I allowed myself to hope . . . perhaps I wanted to . . . we all deceive ourselves, when we want tobelieve. Melisandre most of all, I think. The sword is wrong, she has to know that . . . light without heat . . . an empty glamor . . . the sword is wrong, and the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness, Sam. 

On 7/15/2023 at 10:19 PM, Gilbert Green said:

"Mount" is not a metaphor for sexual activity.  If it were, it would make no sense that only one of the mounts was "to bed".

It’s not really a metaphor, but “mount” is used as slang for sexual activity in the series repeatedly. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if it was used this way for only one of the mounts in the prophesy.

Khal Drogo has a thousand horses, tonight he looks for a different sort of mount.

…

"This one is Mago, who rides in the khas of Ko Jhaqo. He says the khaleesi has taken his spoils, a daughter of the lambs who was his to mount."

…

"It pleases me to hold them safe," Dany said, wondering if she had dared too much. "If your warriors would mount these women, let them take them gently and keep them for wives. Give them places in the khalasar and let them bear you sons."

35 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

I think people over do it. 

They're (the prophecies) too volatile. 

My approach is that they're unknowable except maybe at the high level. And if you have to pay attention, focus on how it's impacting the character/ or how it could be misunderstood. 

I think going into any analysis with the approach that it's "unknowable" is silly and counterproductive.

It's a story, if these are prophesies, they predict something. They might be intentionally misleading, they might be confusing, they might be metaphorical, but they aren't volatile. They either accurately predict something or they don't.

I generally view paying attention as a positive.

You are not speculating in the OP about the nature of prophesy itself, you are speculating about the meaning of a phrase in relation to a character and prophesy. Which is great, and fun to discuss, but to then turn around and say you don't speculate is just bizarre.

37 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

But I am extremely wary of prophecies and I even refuse to read posts about them.

This is your post! lol

5 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

The verb here is vague; "to know". Dany is interpreting it as "they will happen to me". 

But there is another interpretation. 

They could be treasons she initiates. She knows them because they are her own works. 

If so, she already has two. 

-She let her brother die. He was crowned in molten gold. Did she do everything in her power to save him?

-She smothered her husband. A mercy killing to be honest. You could say she did it "for love"...

-Next for blood... Who will Dany betray next? For blood...

 

I agree that this interpretation of "will you know" is a very real possibility.

. . . three heads has the dragon . . . the ghost chorus yammered inside her skull with never a lip moving, never a breath stirring the still blue air. . . . mother of dragons . . . child of storm . . . The whispers became a swirling song. . . . three fires must you light . . . one for life and one for death and one to love . . . Her own heart was beating in unison to the one that floated before her, blue and corrupt . . . three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love . . . The voices were growing louder, she realized, and it seemed her heart was slowing, and even her breath. . . . three treasons will you know . . . once for blood and once for gold and once for love . . .
"I don't . . ." Her voice was no more than a whisper, almost as faint as theirs. What was happening to her? "I don't understand," she said, more loudly. Why was it so hard to talk here? "Help me. Show me."
. . . help her . . . the whispers mocked. . . . show her . . .
Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . . Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . . Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .
Faster and faster the visions came, one after the other, until it seemed as if the very air had come alive. Shadows whirled and danced inside a tent, boneless and terrible. A little girl ran barefoot toward a big house with a red door. Mirri Maz Duur shrieked in the flames, a dragon bursting from her brow. Behind a silver horse the bloody corpse of a naked man bounced and dragged. A white lion ran through grass taller than a man. Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed. Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. "Mother!" they cried. "Mother, mother!" They were reaching for her, touching her, tugging at her cloak, the hem of her skirt, her foot, her leg, her breast. They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them . . .

I would suggest that the treason for blood is Viserys (who was killed for drawing a blade in Vaes Dothrak, where it is a crime to draw blood)

"We are in Vaes Dothrak," he reminded her. "No one may carry a blade here or shed a man's blood."
"Yet men die," she said. "Jhogo told me. Some of the traders have eunuchs with them, huge men who strangle thieves with wisps of silk. That way no blood is shed and the gods are not angered."

The treason for gold was the sacrifice of heir unborn child to resurrect Drogo (only death can pay for life), which she first offers to pay for in gold.

"You'll have gold, horses, whatever you like."
"It is not a matter of gold or horses. This is bloodmagic, lady. Only death may pay for life."
"Death?" Dany wrapped her arms around herself protectively, rocked back and forth on her heels. "My death?" She told herself she would die for him, if she must. She was the blood of the dragon, she would not be afraid. Her brother Rhaegar had died for the woman he loved.
"No," Mirri Maz Duur promised. "Not your death, Khaleesi."
Dany trembled with relief. "Do it."

In both cases the "treason" is in place of the thing mentioned by the Undying, standing in for it (once for blood, once for gold, once for love), killing without blood, and death as payment.

The treason for love being yet to come.

5 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

So a character in a book featuring assassins who can change their face might in fact be one of those assassins, and they have changed their face to look like the character? This is going to make future analysis of every character extremely precarious. 

We need less plausible theories on here guys, I'm worried these are getting too useful. 

The story certainly does beg the question of who is really a faceless man! An idea that's easy to get carried away with.

Have you ever seen The Prestige?

But I think Ned also gives us a clue for how to identify facechangers here too, he recognizes Varys's voice.

If only there were another example of a faceless man sounding like another character.

"A man does not choose his companions in the black cells," the handsome one with the red-and-white hair said. Something about the way he talked reminded her of Syrio; it was the same, yet different too. 

But, back to Illyrio, I've always liked the idea that the fat cat in Syrio's lesson is a reference to Illyrio, who was a braavo in his youth. What better profession for a cat than a cheesemonger, and Illyrio and Varys's child spies were called "little mice" in Essos.

"On the day I am speaking of, the first sword was newly dead, and the Sealord sent for me. Many bravos had come to him, and as many had been sent away, none could say why. When I came into his presence, he was seated, and in his lap was a fat yellow cat. He told me that one of his captains had brought the beast to him, from an island beyond the sunrise. 'Have you ever seen her like?' he asked of me.
"And to him I said, 'Each night in the alleys of Braavos I see a thousand like him,' and the Sealord laughed, and that day I was named the first sword."

Illyrio is associated with yellow, right from the start. His beard being described like false gold long before the Golden Company ever appeared on the page, whose words are, "beneath the gold, the bitter steel".

"Stand there," he told her. "Turn around. Yes. Good. You look …"
"Regal," Magister Illyrio said, stepping through an archway. He moved with surprising delicacy for such a massive man. Beneath loose garments of flame-colored silk, rolls of fat jiggled as he walked. Gemstones glittered on every finger, and his man had oiled his forked yellow beard until it shone like real gold. "May the Lord of Light shower you with blessings on this most fortunate day, Princess Daenerys," the magister said as he took her hand. He bowed his head, showing a thin glimpse of crooked yellow teeth through the gold of his beard. "She is a vision, Your Grace, a vision," he told her brother. "Drogo will be enraptured."

And GRRM uses cats in a metaphor for the children of Winterfell, in particular Jon, who's a dragon:

The Red Keep was full of cats: lazy old cats dozing in the sun [Bran], cold-eyed mousers twitching their tails [Robb], quick little kittens with claws like needles [Arya], ladies' cats all combed and trusting [Sansa], ragged shadows prowling the midden heaps [Rickon]. One by one Arya had chased them down and snatched them up and brought them proudly to Syrio Forel … all but this one, this one-eared black devil of a tomcat [Jon]. "That's the real king of this castle right there," one of the gold cloaks had told her. "Older than sin and twice as mean. One time, the king was feasting the queen's father, and that black bastard hopped up on the table and snatched a roast quail right out of Lord Tywin's fingers. Robert laughed so hard he like to burst. You stay away from that one, child."

After all red or black or yellow, a dragon is still a dragon.

"I admire your powers of persuasion," Tyrion told Illyrio. "How did you convince the Golden Company to take up the cause of our sweet queen when they have spent so much of their history fighting against the Targaryens?"
Illyrio brushed away the objection as if it were a fly. "Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon. When Maelys the Monstrous died upon the Stepstones, it was the end of the male line of House Blackfyre." The cheesemonger smiled through his forked beard. "And Daenerys will give the exiles what Bittersteel and the Blackfyres never could. She will take them home."

You know who else was a part of the Band of Nine who fought on the Stepstones? A Saan!

Arya overhears:

"This is no longer a game for two players, if ever it was. Stannis Baratheon and Lysa Arryn have fled beyond my reach, and the whispers say they are gathering swords around them."

Salladhor Saan agrees to work for Stannis in exchange for promises, rather than payment. When the time comes to attack King's Landing, Salla manages to keep his ships out of the Blackwater, and subsequent disaster. Did he know about the chain?

Then, when Davos gets saved and brought to Salla, we see him on the Bountiful Harvest, which he says he has captured because it didn't want to pay him his "lordly due", which Davos equates with piracy. The Bountiful Harvest is Illyrio's ship, in fact it is fitted to transport Illyrio himself. However, and I think this is the kicker, Davos walks in on Salla checking the inventory.

Salladhor Saan was not aboard his Valyrian. They found him at another quay a quarter mile distant, down in the hold of a big-bellied Pentoshi cog named Bountiful Harvest, counting cargo with two eunuchs. One held a lantern, the other a wax tablet and stylus. "Thirty-seven, thirty-eight, thirty-nine," the old rogue was saying when Davos and the captain came down the hatch. Today he wore a wine-colored tunic and high boots of bleached white leather inlaid with silver scrollwork. Pulling the stopper from a jar, he sniffed, sneezed, and said, "A coarse grind, and of the second quality, my nose declares. The bill of lading is saying forty-three jars. Where have the others gotten to, I am wondering? These Pentoshi, do they think I am not counting?" 

Not only does Illyrio employ eunuchs, but why would a pirate be accusing Pentoshi of trying to cheat him when checking the inventory of a ship he supposedly captured?

I actually think Arya's chapter in Braavos provides us with an explanation. She is sent to kill a man who sells binders for ships. Basically insurance. It is implied that he is collecting payment but not paying out when something happens, a form of fraud. I think Illyrio is "capturing his own ship" and collecting the insurance, which is another kind of related fraud. 

If I'm really speculating wildly, I would suggest that Illyrio is the child of Bittersteel and Daemon Blackfyre's daughter, and Serra was the child of Samarro Saan.

Ghosts and liars. Revenants from forgotten wars, lost causes, failed rebellions, a brotherhood of the failed and the fallen, the disgraced and the disinherited.

15 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Illyrio Mopatis is a faceless man. Though if I’m honest, I haven’t thoroughly chucked that crazy notion in the bin of dead theories just yet.

I don't even think this is that crazy. Obviously can't be sure, but it seems entirely plausible.

His compatriot Varys literally changes his face in the text, no mundane disguise has stubble one can feel with your hand.

"Wine," a voice answered. It was not the rat-faced man; this gaoler was stouter, shorter, though he wore the same leather half cape and spiked steel cap. "Drink, Lord Eddard." He thrust a wineskin into Ned's hands.
The voice was strangely familiar, yet it took Ned Stark a moment to place it. "Varys?" he said groggily when it came. He touched the man's face. "I'm not … not dreaming this. You're here." The eunuch's plump cheeks were covered with a dark stubble of beard. Ned felt the coarse hair with his fingers. Varys had transformed himself into a grizzled turnkey, reeking of sweat and sour wine. "How did you … what sort of magician are you?"
"A thirsty one," Varys said. "Drink, my lord."

It's possible that Varys and Illyrio were trainees like are is now, who left or were cast out.

My favorite extension of this is that Illyrio is actually the same man as Salladhor Saan.

2 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

The Great Goddess

Fertility deities play a big role in ASOIAF. 

I like the themes here that you are highlighting, although I disagree with the conclusion that you draw.

I think one of the most common mistakes to make when reading ASoIaF is to come away with the conclusion that the world is an eternal two sided conflict like Melisandre describes.

"The way the world is made. The truth is all around you, plain to behold. The night is dark and full of terrors, the day bright and beautiful and full of hope. One is black, the other white. There is ice and there is fire. Hate and love. Bitter and sweet. Male and female. Pain and pleasure. Winter and summer. Evil and good." She took a step toward him. "Death and life. Everywhere, opposites. Everywhere, the war."
"The war?" asked Davos.
"The war," she affirmed. "There are two, Onion Knight. Not seven, not one, not a hundred or a thousand. Two! Do you think I crossed half the world to put yet another vain king on yet another empty throne? The war has been waged since time began, and before it is done, all men must choose where they will stand. On one side is R'hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow. Against him stands the Great Other whose name may not be spoken, the Lord of Darkness, the Soul of Ice, the God of Night and Terror. Ours is not a choice between Baratheon and Lannister, between Greyjoy and Stark. It is death we choose, or life. Darkness, or light." She clasped the bars of his cell with her slender white hands. The great ruby at her throat seemed to pulse with its own radiance. "So tell me, Ser Davos Seaworth, and tell me truly—does your heart burn with the shining light of R'hllor? Or is it black and cold and full of worms?" She reached through the bars and laid three fingers upon his breast, as if to feel the truth of him through flesh and wool and leather.
"My heart," Davos said slowly, "is full of doubts."
Melisandre sighed. "Ahhhh, Davos. The good knight is honest to the last, even in his day of darkness.

I do not think the truth is plain to behold. I think the first step to wisdom is doubt.

It seems to me to be a mistake to simplify life into black and white, good and evil, or to view everything through the lens of it being a war.

2 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

Garth the Green is a Fertility deity. From him springs many of the great houses of Westeros that exist today. It's puzzling that Garth is Male, considering the Fertility deities of the past have been female. But we, like time, must move on.

Garth seems a lot like the horned god Cernunnos.

2 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

It's a big deal

If GRRM has included Fertility Goddesses in ASOIAF that were historically significant in our real world... did he also include her counterpart... the god who usurped her and took her place at the start of the Iron Age (which still continues today)?

This seems to be a gross oversimplification of real world mythology. It is one interesting line of thought, but I don't think it's anything like the whole picture.

2 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

The counterpart and rival to the Great Goddess (Fertility, abundance, walled cities, agriculture, female independence and sexuality) is the God of Death. A Sky God. He is depicted as male. He is often associated with storms. In our world, he originated among the nomadic horse warriors of the steppe lands on the fringe of Fertility worshipping civilization. 

Again, this seems like a bold and broad claim.

Zeus, a sky god, and father of the greek pantheon was notably fertile for instance. There was also his brother, the god of death, who was not the head of the pantheon.

2 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

The God of Death

When the Fertility Goddess was torn down from her place at the center of all things, she did not merely disappear. She was transformed. 

Most commonly she was "demoted". Instead of being defined as "a mother", her place in the pantheon of gods was altered. She instead became "a daughter" and the Gods that supplanted her became chief as "a father" to her the goddess. Elsewhere, he married the Fertility Goddess making her "a wife", tying her to the husband and subordinating her to him (theologically). In this way, the Sky God (God of Death) sought to establish supremacy over the Fertility Goddess (and her worshipers).

Gaia was the mother of Zeus.

2 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

In our world, the Abrahamic religions are death god worshippers. The god of Moses is a destroyer of worlds. A cruel and terrible god. The Christians take this one step further. Their God Jesus, dies on the cross. His birth is celebrated in winter (associated with death) and his death took place in the spring (associating new life with his death). Interestingly, Jesus' mother is a virgin. Thus, it is not her fertility and womanhood that is revered and worshipped but her virginity. Though she is a woman, she is another avatar of the death god but in woman form.  I can't tell you anything about Islam*. So we're moving on.

I enjoy the line of thinking but it's hardly a complete picture. "Be fruitful and multiply"

Also, a virgin birth is not unique to Abrahamic religions, but evident in older traditions.

We also see this reference about Garth:

Garth Greenhand brought the gift of fertility with him. Nor was it only the earth that he made fecund, for the legends tell us that he could make barren women fruitful with a touch—even crones whose moon blood no longer flowed. Maidens ripened in his presence, mothers brought forth twins or even triplets when he blessed them, young girls flowered at his smile. Lords and common men alike offered up their virgin daughters to him wherever he went, that their crops might ripen and their trees grow heavy with fruit. There was never a maid that he deflowered who did not deliver a strong son or fair daughter nine moons later, or so the stories say.

2 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

Thus we can see that in the faith of the Seven, the Father is a God of Death (like the Father figure Gods in our world). As is the Warrior (who kills). The Smith is also coded as male, and could make machines of war which would also make him a death god. The Stranger, is a death god on its face, and openly called a death god in ASOIAF. It would seem that in ASOIAF, as well as our own world, there was a climactic clash between A Fertility Goddess and the God of Death.

I agree that the Stranger is an aspect of death, but not the Father.

Remember that with the Seven, these are seven aspects of one god, they do not war against each other, they are one god.

2 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

We have still more evidence of the God of Death worship. The Iron Islands worships two gods; The Drowned God and the Storm God. These gods are one, the God of Death.

A bold claim, and an interesting idea, but I just don't see evidence for it.

2 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

The Storm God is a Sky God, associated with storms which is similar to our own world. The Drowned God is dead, as befitting a God of Death. Indeed, Iron Island houses like the Greyjoys are the God of Death's champions. They proudly herald his coming with words that evoke death itself; "We do not sow". I find it fitting that the Iron Islands are indeed "Iron", which I associated with men, the Iron Age, and the fall of the Bronze Age Goddess worship. What is dead may never die.

"... but rises again, harder and stronger"

Life is part of a cycle that involves death, I don't think they are just opposites, they are parts of a whole.

All men must die.

Only life may pay for death.

I'm not convinced gods and goddesses actually exist in ASoIaF, but they are meaningful for what they represent regardless.

2 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

The Facelessmen also worship a death god. The Many-Faced-God. They play no small part in our story.

"Only death may pay for life"

2 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

 The fact that Westeros and elsewhere (Minus the North and Iron Islands) worships these Gods indicates the following;

-The Fertility Goddess once reigned supreme in Westeros (at least where the Faith of the Seven exist)

-She was conquered by the God of Death, A Sky God, a Storm God, depicted as male, and associated with the nomadic horsemen of the steppe.

I don't know how you make this leap. Isn't the old fertility god male? Garth. Isn't the faith of the Seven the dominant religion? Where is the relationship to the nomadic horseman of the step found in the faith of the seven?

2 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

Symbols of the Eternal Battle

If all of this is indeed true. We would need further proof. Perhaps an allegory or some conflicts which mirror or echo this struggle between life and death itself. 
 

-Aegon I Targaryen's attack on Harren the Black at Harrenhal

Aegon attacking Harren the Black, to me, seems like an echo or a parallel to this conflict (Fertility Goddess vs. Death God). For one thing, Aegon attacked from above (like a Sky God would).  Secondly, Aegon attacked on dragonback, which to me is somewhat akin to horseriding and the Sky God is the God (originally) of the Nomadic Horsemen of the steppes. 

Thirdly, the name "Hoare" is an odd one. It has several meanings in the text, but most significantly, it's a homonym for "whore". In a book that constantly reminds the reader that certain words sound similar to another ("Reek it rhymes with meek", "Roose it Rhymes with noose"), the possibilities are intriguing. For if that is the author's intent, we can take this a step further. Prostitution is the oldest profession we know of today. It goes back to at least the Bronze age. And at that time, there existed something called "Sacred prostitution" (which GRRM mentions in ASOIAF, it takes place at the Temple of the Fertility Goddess in Lys). Sacred prostitution is required of all Fertility Goddess Worshippers, once in their lifetimes they must honor the goddess with their own bodies. They must go the temple and offer themselves and take whatever price is given to their first admirer. The money is then given to the temple of the Goddess...

You lost me at Harren Hoare being a symbol for a fertility goddess. I will say this, it's an odd detail that Harrenhall has a Godswood.

I thought you said the Ironmen religion represented death?

Hoare can also mean having grey or white hair.

2 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

We know a character, an important character, associated with prostitution... and Harrenhal. Littlefinger...

We know there is a Godswood in Harrenhal. And Garth, the Fertility god of Westeros, is associated with Weirwoods. He planted them. 

Thus, we have in one corner a symbolic Sky God slaying a fertility (Godswood) worshipping "Hoares" (whores).

Seems like a stretch to me, again I don't think it fits with the gender patten you seemed to be trying to establish above.

2 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

 -The Blood feud between Blackwood and Bracken

If the Godswood (referred to above) is associated with Fertility (Perhaps it is ironic that Blackwood women are not "blessed with great bossoms", to put it politely) the Blackwoods still worship this god. Indeed, they keep the Weirwood on their Sigil and are its champion. 

Then perhaps, might we say that the Brackens, associating themselves with horses and disassociating themselves from both the Blackwoods and the Weirwoods (they converted to the Faith of the Seven), worship the god of death? 

And might we also say that this battle, this struggle, which will never end (can never end) represents the struggle between the Goddess and the God of Death? It should be noted that the Blackwoods were on the losing side of the War of the Five Kings, like the Goddess herself and the Brackens changed to the winning side (much like the God of Death prevailed in our history). 

If this feud has the greater meaning I assign to it, this battle can never end. Fertility worship is fundamentally opposed to the God of death. Nor can one side triumph over the other, they are locked in eternal battle forever. Because even if death slays all, life will return anew.  

I think the moral here is that the sides here are artificial constructs and they are really the same people fighting themselves at this point.

 "So many years, so many wars, so many kings … you'd think someone would have made a peace."
"Someone did, my lord. Many someones. We've had a hundred peaces with the Brackens, many sealed with marriages. There's Blackwood blood in every Bracken, and Bracken blood in every Blackwood. The Old King's Peace lasted half a century. But then some fresh quarrel broke out, and the old wounds opened and began to bleed again. That's how it always happens, my father says. So long as men remember the wrongs done to their forebears, no peace will ever last. So we go on century after century, with us hating the Brackens and them hating us. My father says there will never be an end to it."
"There could be."
"How, my lord? The old wounds never heal, my father says."
"My father had a saying too. Never wound a foe when you can kill him. Dead men don't claim vengeance."
"Their sons do," said Hoster, apologetically.
"Not if you kill the sons as well. Ask the Casterlys about that if you doubt me. Ask Lord and Lady Tarbeck, or the Reynes of Castamere. Ask the Prince of Dragonstone." For an instant, the deep red clouds that crowned the western hills reminded him of Rhaegar's children, all wrapped up in crimson cloaks.

I think the reader is supposed to be able to recognize that extinguishing the line of your foe is not a "good" solution. The murder of children for the actions of their forebearers is wrong.

I'm of the opinion that the solution is forgiveness, not vengeance.

2 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

In ASOIAF, the Coming of the Andals which marked the downfall of the Old Gods (Fertility Worship)* in so much of Westeros could represent what occurred in our own world. The collapse of the Bronze Age and the downfall of the Fertility Goddess.

It seems to me to be something like a parallel for the Roman conquest of Britain.

2 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

It ain't over until the fat lady sings

The triumph of the God of Death is not complete. One thing I foresee which could tip the scales back in favor of the Goddess, ironically, might be (of all things) an impending ice age. 

Our own planet is prone to them (over thousands of years), as is Planetos. Anything could trigger it... the collapse of the Polar Vortex... A change in the oceanic currents...

Our world (and Planetos), which is so dependent on iron and steel (we're still in the Iron Age, technically) might not fair well in an ice age. For you see, Iron shatters when it gets cold enough well before the temperature Bronze shatters. It is one of the few advantages bronze has over iron... This will bring about another apocalypse, an"Iron Age Apocalypse"... ushering in a second "Bronze Age". 

The ensuing collapse will tear apart the world down to the core, not even the patriarchal family structure with men at the center of the family and thus society (so prevalent in Westeros) will survive. 

So as the cold returns, so too with The Great Goddess***: The Giver-of-Life, Queen-of-Love-and-Beauty, The Huntress, Protector of Cities and, countless other names all of which she reserves for herself. Life will continue... on her terms.  

I don't think an apocalypse is a "good" solution.

"Up and down," Meera would sigh sometimes as they walked, "then down and up. Then up and down again. I hate these stupid mountains of yours, Prince Bran."
"Yesterday you said you loved them."
"Oh, I do. My lord father told me about mountains, but I never saw one till now. I love them more than I can say."
Bran made a face at her. "But you just said you hated them."
"Why can't it be both?" Meera reached up to pinch his nose.
"Because they're different," he insisted. "Like night and day, or ice and fire."
"If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."

Again, I think the answer is forgiveness not vengeance.

At it's core, I think the moral here about righting old wrongs is about making peace not war.

"To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater," they said together. "Hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you."
"I swear it by earth and water," said the boy in green.
"I swear it by bronze and iron," his sister said.
"We swear it by ice and fire," they finished together.

27 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Branfrom Bran's chapter in Storm while he and his traveling companions were at Queenscrown, just before Jon and the Magnar arrived. 

Since Brandon the Shipwright never returns, I am thinking this foreshadows that Bran will never return, at least not outside the weirnet. 

Interesting idea, although I don't think I agree about Bran's future.

I'm partial to the idea that this is one of the discrepancies about the Starks being First Men. The Brandon the Shipwright and Brandon the Burner story is an explanation for why the Starks are not a sea power. However, the First Men were explicitly not a seafaring people.

The First Keep in Winterfell is round, and has gargoyles, neither of which match what we know of First Men construction.

The Starks put iron swords in the crypts of the dead, and the Others were said to hate cold iron, and yet the First Men were said to not have ironworking.

All these details make me question the Maesters wisdom about ancient stories of knights riding around Westeros long before there were knights. Not to mention the origins of the Starks themselves.

 

On 7/15/2023 at 8:11 AM, Hippocras said:

Can't find where I read it, but even if I am wrong about late 282 I still gave a range, and early 283 is still within that range. Even if Rhaegar and Lyanna had a full year together, it was not more than that.

It might well have been more than that, but if you have quotes to the contrary I'm always open to reading them.

On 7/15/2023 at 8:11 AM, Hippocras said:

The timeline is generally fuzzy but there is nothing particularly off about it that requires alternate explanations for Jon's age and identity or Daenaerys's age and identity. The generally accepted version for both is entirely plausible.

The timeline is fuzzy.

The oft quoted GRRM comment about Jon and Dany being 8-9 months apart is difficult to impossible to fit into any timeline where Ned would have to be present both at the Sack of King's Landing (9 months before Rhaella gives birth) and the Tower of Joy at basically the same time (if not ToJ first).

On 7/15/2023 at 8:11 AM, Hippocras said:

I really don't think a 12 month window is enough to consider it a reasonable proposition that Lyanna had 2 pregnancies.

Again, it isn't two full pregnancies in 12 months, just a pregnancy and a conception. I know multiple people in real life for whom this is true.

On 7/15/2023 at 8:11 AM, Hippocras said:

Generally children born in consecutive calendar years to the same mother are not actually 12 months apart.

Nobody suggested every event in ASoIaF is normal. Siblings born in the same calendar year are entirely possible in real life.

23 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Lyanna was not abducted right after the tournament. She was abducted "the next year". The timeline in question does not start with the tournament, it starts with the timing of when Brandon's family were all travelling to Riverrun for his wedding, which was right after his duel with Littlefinger in (must be VERY) early 282.

"Right after" is a hard amount of time to define, but we are talking about two months, not a year.

The Tourney at Harrenhall was during the "false spring" of 281, during the last two months of the year.

Rhaegar took to the road right at the start of 282.

The False Spring of 281 AC lasted less than two turns. As the year drew to a close, winter returned to Westeros with a vengeance. On the last day of the year, snow began to fall upon King's Landing, and a crust of ice formed atop the Blackwater Rush. The snowfall continued off and on for the best part of a fortnight, by which time the Blackwater was hard frozen, and icicles draped the roofs and gutters of every tower in the city.
As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon's turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.

On 7/15/2023 at 1:46 PM, Hippocras said:

@Gilbert Green

Firt point: The Tourney at Harrenhal was about a year before Lyanna's abduction, your timeline is too short there. Again, I don't have good resources for quote finding, but "the next year" is I believe what it said.

I do not know how you can reconcile this statement with the quote above. I think you conflating being in the next calendar year with being a year later.

Two months is a more reasonable ballpark from the Tourney to Lyanna's disappearance, with new years day occurring between the events.

15 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

Why would Ashara want Ned over his stronger, more confident, more powerful brother?

Ned has nothing to offer Ashara. Brandon gets everything. 

Absolutely wild response 

If you are being serious I am deeply sorry for you, that’s a heartbreaking worldview

In addition, Brandon has nothing monetarily to offer since he’s promised to marry Cat. Also, there is no mention of Ashara wedding plans at all, which would presumably have been made by the male head of House Dayne and not her anyway.

37 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

From your own quote it shows Ashara was not interested in Ned. 
 

How? What part of either of those quotes shows that Ashara was not interested in Ned. Even if that were true it still doesn’t change my point.

37 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

But Brandon has influence. If she liked anyone it's him. 

You are just making statements with no basis in the text.

There is a case to be made that Brandon and Ashara were a thing, but you are not making anything resembling a convincing case here.

37 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

Makes sense. Dornish women are much more independent than the rest of Westerosi women. 

I have no idea what this is in relation to or why you are saying it. Lyanna seemed pretty independent, as do other women in the story. Maybe you are referring to inheritance rights or something…

On 7/13/2023 at 6:49 AM, Tradecraft said:

Ned is a false choice. There isn't anything Ned can provide that Brandon can't also provide. He's basically redundant. 

I don’t know how you can say this.

Ned is unpromised, which seems extremely relevant given the topic at hand. He also seemingly genuinely likes Ashara.

The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

 …

When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor. There's nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged.

8 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

No, Rhaegar was sent for before the Battle of the Bells, he simply took command of the forces after that.

Do you have any evidence for that claim?

Not that it matters, Rhaegar was with Lyanna until after the battle of the bells, so for at least a year.

He floated in heat, in memory. "After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him." Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? "He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and senthim to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins' men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father.

5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Can you elaborate? Are the 'real life' things literal and the 'dream' things figurative?

I don’t know what you’re trying to ask or what you don’t understand.

If the text explicitly says “as in life” it was probably happening in the dream as it happened in life. When Ned is describing wraiths of mist and storms of rose petals it’s probably figurative dream descriptions. The rest could go either way.

Just now, Hippocras said:

Lyanna's supposed abduction was in early 282. Rhaegar was fetched by Gerold Hightower to join the war in late 282 or early 283. Right there in the timeline I provided. That means they could not possibly have had more than a year together, and probably a few months less.

Lyanna disappeared at the very start of 282.

The battle of the bells was explicitly in 283.

Rhaegar was not sent for until after the battle of the bells, plus news reaching KL and Hightower reaching the ToJ.

They had at least a year together.

10 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Okay, then why do you think Ned is pointing out whether things are the same as in real life or not?

Parts of the dream are literal and parts are figurative

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

I would expect Ned to comment

This does not follow.

Its the same as saying that because some things are identified as true and some as false, that anything not identified is false.

It’s an unsupported assumption that makes no sense.

18 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

What it implies is that if things were different to how they actually were, Ned should note them, because he makes a clear distinction between 'in life' and 'in dream'.

I can’t tell if this is all a joke. After this post I’ll probably just let it go because wow.

There is no reason to think something would be noted as false if it is any more than it would be true if it is.

18 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes there is, my point is that we see Ned point out when the dream mirrors life and when it does not.

When Ned does this it tells us something, when he doesn’t, it doesn’t.

18 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

It means the details in the dream are not wrong.

But, we know that some of them are wrong, he says some of them are wrong, you acknowledge that he says some of them are wrong.

I think you need to be a lot more specific about what you are talking about if you want to make sense.

18 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

In what way?

Quoting the text.

18 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I did.

You showed examples of how some of the details of the dream are true and some are false, this does not support your claim that they are all true or the erroneous postulation that because some are identified as true and some as false that anything not specifically noted as false is true.

It just makes no sense.

18 hours ago, Hippocras said:

When Ned went to Storm's End he did not go alone. He brought an army.

Do you have any evidence for this claim? It would certainly have taken a lot longer to get there if it’s true.