Mourning Star
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Bran closed his eyes. It was too cold to talk, and they dare not light a fire. Coldhands had warned them against that. These woods are not as empty as you think, he had said. You cannot know what the light might summon from the darkness. The memory made him shiver, despite the warmth of Hodor beside him.
Sleep would not come, could not come. Instead there was wind, the biting cold, moonlight on snow, and fire. He was back inside Summer, long leagues away, and the night was rank with the smell of blood. The scent was strong. A kill, not far. The flesh would still be warm. Slaver ran between his teeth as the hunger woke inside him. Not elk. Not deer. Not this.Obviously, Bran's initial dream meant that Jon forgot Hodor's birthday. (/s)
Jon shook his head. "No one. The castle is always empty." He had never told anyone of the dream, and he did not understand why he was telling Sam now, yet somehow it felt good to talk of it. "Even the ravens are gone from the rookery, and the stables are full of bones. That always scares me. I start to run then, throwing open doors, climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for anyone. And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It's black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don't want to. I'm afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it's not them I'm afraid of. I scream that I'm not a Stark, that this isn't my place, but it's no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream." He stopped, frowning, embarrassed. "That's when I always wake." His skin cold and clammy, shivering in the darkness of his cell. Ghost would leap up beside him, his warmth as comforting as daybreak. He would go back to sleep with his face pressed into the direwolf's shaggy white fur.
In more seriousness, I think Ghost is the warm memory which Jon may lose.
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11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:
Explains why Olenna doesn't like him much...
Olenna's comment is certainly what inspired my comparison.
"Gallant, yes, and charming, and very clean. He knew how to dress and he knew how to smile and he knew how to bathe, and somehow he got the notion that this made him fit to be king. The Baratheons have always had some queer notions, to be sure. It comes from their Targaryen blood, I should think." She sniffed. "They tried to marry me to a Targaryen once, but I soon put an end to that."
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1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:
He explicitly states his goal was wiping out the Targaryens.
Yes and no. The war began because Jon Arryn wouldn't hand over Ned's and Robert's heads.
It's clear Robert hated the "dragonspawn," but it's less clear if he'd have killed children himself. I actually really like this ambiguity from a story telling perspective. It doesn't seem like Robert's normal nature to take vengeance on children, he notoriously forgave lords who warred against him, but when it came to the Targaryens, particularly Rhaegar, he saw red.
Ned did not feign surprise; Robert's hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar's wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, "I see no babes. Only dragonspawn." Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna's death, and the grief they had shared over her passing.
I feel like Robert mostly looks the other way here, calls it war not murder, even if he should know it was wrong, and probably does deep down. I doubt he smiled.
"Prince Rhaegar had two children," Ser Barristan told him. "Rhaenys was a little girl, Aegon a babe in arms. When Tywin Lannister took King's Landing, his men killed both of them. He served the bloody bodies up in crimson cloaks, a gift for the new king." And what did Robert say when he saw them? Did he smile? Barristan Selmy had been badly wounded on the Trident, so he had been spared the sight of Lord Tywin's gift, but oft he wondered. If I had seen him smile over the red ruins of Rhaegar's children, no army on this earth could have stopped me from killing him. "I will not suffer the murder of children. Accept that, or I'll have no part of this."
For years Robert listened to Jon Arryn and sent no Usurper's Knives after Viserys and Dany, and in the end he admits to it being wrong to send the wine merchant after Dany.
"The girl. Daenerys. Only a child, you were right … that's why, the girl … the gods sent the boar … sent to punish me …" The king coughed, bringing up blood. "Wrong, it was wrong, I … only a girl … Varys, Littlefinger, even my brother … worthless … no one to tell me no but you, Ned … only you …"
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48 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:
Which one?
Aegon V's son... in retrospect that was extremely unclear, lol
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42 minutes ago, James Steller said:
I just can’t think of who else resembles him. (Renly)
In a kind of shallow sense, Daeron Targaryen.
7 hours ago, sifth said:Anyone else notice how GRRM seems to have a habit of basically just copying characters from his main series, slightly tweets their backstories and just inserts them into his history books. The Laughing Storm basically is Robert 2.0 and Larys is basically just Varys and Littlefinger combined into one person.
In fairness, I think a big part of ASoIaF is reusing archetypes/patterns in slightly different ways. This applies to characters and plotlines. In my personal opinion, this is at times a great strength and at others seems a little weak, but I do think it's intentional.
"The dragon is time. It has no beginning and no ending, so all things come round again. Anders Yronwood is Criston Cole reborn. He whispers in my brother's ear that he should rule after my father, that it is not right for men to kneel to women . . . that Arianne especially is unfit to rule, being the willful wanton that she is." She tossed her hair defiantly. "So your two princesses share a common cause, ser . . . and they share as well a knight who claims to love them both, but will not fight for them."
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20 hours ago, sweetsunray said:
He rarely seemed to actually sit on the IT. We never see him do so in aGoT, and I suspect that he had Jon Arryn listen to complaints while going hunting, just like he does with Ned.
He says he has though...
I sit on that damnable iron chair and listen to them complain until my mind is numb and my ass is raw.
20 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:Simple: Throne finds him worthy.
I'm inclined to agree.
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Syrio and Jaqen Hagar were the same man.
Mance Rayder sent the Catspaw Assassin to kill Bran.
Bloodraven is not the three eyed crow.
Dany is not the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella.
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On 6/27/2023 at 8:30 PM, csuszka1948 said:
How was Dany found and taken away from the 'House with the Red Door'?
Great question.
Someone always tells.
If the house with the red door was in Dorne, I wouldn't be surprised to find that the Martells were involved. Especially since we are told Oberyn went to Braavos to negotiate the marriage pact with Viserys (which doesn't mention Dany) and Dany remembers sailing into Braavos.
If I'm really feeling wildly speculative, I think the idea that Darkstar knows about these events, and that's what makes him the most dangerous man in Dorne, is interesting.
On 6/27/2023 at 8:30 PM, csuszka1948 said:Why does it matter that this Dany is actually a Targaryen, not just a lookalike, because if they used her for 'coin' they can use anyone looking like a Targaryen?
Did Drogo care that she was a Targaryen or just that she looked like a Valyrian princess? Unclear to me. I'm not sure that Dany had to be a Targaryen to be sold. But I do think it's worth noting that Dany being Rhaegar's sister instead of his daughter does change her position in the line of succession, especially in relation to Viserys.
On 6/27/2023 at 8:30 PM, csuszka1948 said:Why didn't Ned Stark do anything about it for years, despite knowing that someone has taken her, she is brainwashed by Viserys and her life is constantly in danger?
I don't think it's clear what Ned knew or assumed.
We don't get many direct thoughts of his in this regard except for the repeated objection to killing children, paralleled to both Cersei in the "bitter cup" of exile conversation, and to Rhaegar's children.
On 6/27/2023 at 8:30 PM, csuszka1948 said:Why doesn't Varys confront Ned Stark about Dany and use him as an ally for his scheme?
To what end? Varys and Illyrio, judging by the conversation Arya overhears, intended to see Ned removed from power.
Blackmailing a man like Ned doesn't seem like a great plan to me either, but it's all hypothetical. We can only speculate about why characters don't do things they don't do in the story, and I'm not sure there's much value in it.
On 6/27/2023 at 8:30 PM, csuszka1948 said:I said the alternative explanation for house with red door&lemon tree.
I don't think it's convincing to hand wave away the repeated lemon tree discrepancy. I don't think these were written for no reason. I also think I'm providing a much more coherent explanation for what Dany sees in the House of the Undying.
But, everyone is entitled to make up their own opinion.
On 6/27/2023 at 8:30 PM, csuszka1948 said:The discrepancies in Viserys' story I countered neatly, but you think he would lie about small details for no reason.
I don't know what you mean by countered. The discrepancies exist, you can try and provide other explanations, like sloppy writing if you want, but I don't think they are more convincing than assuming what was written was intentional. If it was intentional, then there was a reason. Any one discrepancy is easy to dismiss, that there are multiple small inconsistencies is, I believe, for the benefit of the reader, and evidence of Viserys dishonesty.
On 6/27/2023 at 8:30 PM, csuszka1948 said:Dany doesn't have enough Stark characterization to be convincing, she has a parallel dream to Bran (what would darkness do, roar? howling is more terrifying) and Lyanna. What House of the Undying visions?
I disagree about the Stark characterizations of Dany.
She is a natural rider without training on a Stark colored horse (her silver), and is described like a centaur.
She wears Stark colors with flowers in her hair.
It's not the darkness described as howling, it's Dany... the devil is in the details. Dragons are never described as howling, wolves repeatedly are.
The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness.
The shadows Dany sees in the tent of Mirri:
She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames.
Etc. etc. etc...
Off in the distance, a wolf howled. The sound made her feel sad and lonely
On 6/27/2023 at 8:44 PM, csuszka1948 said:They don't. Jahaerys didn't expect the marriage to end in a war with the overthrow of the Targaryen dynasty, and Aerys didn't rape Rhaella with the desire to birth a prophecy child, he ignored prophecies.
Do you have any textual evidence for the claim that Aerys ignored prophesy, or his intents?
On 6/27/2023 at 8:44 PM, csuszka1948 said:It was Rhaegar who cared the most about prophecies and his behaviour has drastically changed after reading some scrolls.
Which led him to learning to use a sword, and he died in a swordfight.
On 6/27/2023 at 8:44 PM, csuszka1948 said:It's recently have been revealed that the 'song of ice and fire' refers to Aegon's dream of the three-headed dragon fighting some darkness coming from the North and (partly) this motivated Aegon to conquer.
Do you have a quote from the books to support this claim?
On 6/27/2023 at 8:44 PM, csuszka1948 said:It usually plays a significant part (especially the parents by action), but it doesn't determine and there are many instances when this shows (see Aenys vs Aegon, Daeron II vs Aegon IV or Aegon III vs Rhaenyra&Daemon or Aerion vs Maekar or Aerys vs Jahaerys II etc.).
The Ghost of High Heart makes a prophesy about bloodline leading to the prince who was promised, so in this case it seems to me to be directly relevant to the return of dragons.
On 6/27/2023 at 8:44 PM, csuszka1948 said:Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?”
“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.
“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his ngers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness lled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way."
Rhaegar is talking about his children here and looks at Dany.
I like this next little connection as well, although I don't expect everyone else to find it compelling.
Rhaegar's quote above is the equivalent of Star Wars' "There is another", which is a reference to Luke and Leia.
Luke also sees a vision of his own face in Vader's black armored helmet, Vader is his father.
And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. "The last dragon," Ser Jorah's voice whispered faintly. "The last, the last." Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.
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On 6/23/2023 at 3:38 PM, csuszka1948 said:
What is crazy? Aerys didn't attempt to bring 'humanity's saviour' into the world, Aerys had almost nothing to do with the choices Dany has made.
Aerys and Rahella were seeming wed with the intent to bring about the Prince who was Promised.
Jaehaerys and Shaera would have two children, Aerys and Rhaella. On the word of Jenny of Oldstone's woods witch, Prince Jaehaerys determined to wed Aerys to Rhaella, or so the accounts from his court tell us. King Aegon washed his hands of it in frustration, letting the prince have his way.
On 6/23/2023 at 3:38 PM, csuszka1948 said:By the same standards you could call the idea that Aegon conquering Westeros based on a dream and bringing fire and blood and death to hundreds of thousands (especially Dornish smallfolk) eventually resulting in humanity's saviours being born; or Unwin Peake brutally killing Jahaera eventually leading to humanity's saviour being born; or Jahaerys II forcing his children (Aerys and Rhaella) to marry based on a woodswitch's prophecy leading to humanity's saviour being born insane and crazy.
I think you are confusing what I believe with what I'm saying character's believe, sorry if I have not been clear.
Character's in the story believe a prophesy bout a Prince who was Promised, I'm not referring to anyone as a singular savior of humanity I personally believe in.
I'm saying that I don't expect kings chasing prophesies to get the results they intended.
If Aegon conquered Westeros based on a dream, that's never been mentioned in the books.
On 6/23/2023 at 3:38 PM, csuszka1948 said:Again, you are repulsed by the idea that 'humanity's saviour' (btw this is not confirmed to be Dany) could be possibly be a child born of incest and rape, but I don't see what's the problem with the concept. Our parents and the way of our conception don't have to define who we are, we can show that we are better than them.
I agree that who parents are does not have to determine who children are, but it plays a very large part. And this is true both of parents by blood and by action.
On 6/23/2023 at 3:38 PM, csuszka1948 said:Your story involves Rhaegar actually succeeding in getting a daughter with Lyanna who brought dragons back, just as he believes he has foreseen.
Please show me the quote where Rhaegar foresees a child with Lyanna, I think readers fill this into the blanks, but it is not the only explanation for what we've read.
On 6/23/2023 at 3:38 PM, csuszka1948 said:My story involves Rhaegar wanting to get a daughter (Visenya) from Lyanna who brings dragons back and serves as the third head of the dragon, but instead getting a son who is raised in the North (but still becomes one head of the dragon!) and the girl he has seen with dragons being his (unborn) sister.
That's a take.
Do you think he planned on a bastard son to parallel Aegon's bastard brother Baratheon too?
On 6/23/2023 at 3:38 PM, csuszka1948 said:I think this is much more compelling and fits more the nature of prophecies and visions.
Clearly I disagree.
On 6/23/2023 at 3:38 PM, csuszka1948 said:I am not talking about the lemons not growing in Braavos, but about the involvement of Illyrio and especially the Martells in a possible conspiracy. Arianne and Aegon Targaryen as characters - and subsequently the Dornish marriage pact and the idea that Viserys&Dany were only used as pawns - were invented after scrapping the 5-year gap, while the broad strokes of Dany's ending (the ending of all main characters) have been fixed for a longer time.
So you are selectively talking about things that appear later in the story... ok...
On 6/23/2023 at 3:38 PM, csuszka1948 said:Your main 2 arguments were
- the 'Lemongate': Dany's memories being fuzzy (the girl was 4-5 year old, hells!) and House with Red Door being in Tyrosh explains it
- Viserys 'lying': I pointed out that he has no reason whatsoever to lie about small details like the date of his departure or a storm destroying stones in Dragonstone when constructing a false identity, and you were unable to refute it. Your argument - that it is somehow some secret clue that Viserys is lying - is ridiculous, because these these 'secret clues' actually support the theory that Viserys is not lying, his memory just isn't perfect and/or he is exaggerating.
I think this is central, because the theory of Dany not being who she thinks she is is always based on Viserys lying, and your evidence about Viserys lying is absolutely unconvicing.
This is called a strawman argument and it is obviously in bad faith.
On 6/23/2023 at 3:38 PM, csuszka1948 said:Again, if you propose that Dany is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, propose a sensible hypothetical what has happened to her after her birth, when and how did Illyrio&Varys got their hands on her, and explain things like Ned ignoring her (and letting her live the life of a beggar and being abused and brainwashed by Viserys) for 8-9 years and Varys not using the Dany card against Ned.
She spent a few years in the House with the Red Door, then was taken to travel Essos from court to court with Viserys.
Ned goes to King's Landing for the first time since the rebellion in the story. The "card" of sending assassins after Dany is used, and causes Ned to resign. It is only after Varys says the birds have already flown and he may not be able to stop the assassination attempt that Ned thinks of "broken promises".
On 6/23/2023 at 3:38 PM, csuszka1948 said:Such a hypothetical is pretty easy to propose for the R+L=J secret identity (it's simple, straightforward and fit with our main characters), but I haven't seen any good one for the R+L=D secret identity theory.
And I don't find the handwaving away of the house with the red door, lemon tree, discrepancies in Viserys's story, visions in the House of the Undying, and Dany's Stark characterizations to be convincing.
To each their own.
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On 6/24/2023 at 11:16 PM, csuszka1948 said:
It seems like a teenage rebelllion to me. Arya was allowed to break the rules 100 times, and Sansa did it one time.
Of course it's teenage rebellion, but all acts of rebellion are not the same.
On 6/24/2023 at 11:16 PM, csuszka1948 said:She didn't think Cersei as an enemy, because her father refused to explain the severity situation to her before (unlike with Arya) and personally offered to execute Lady, validating Robert's (and Cersei's) decision.
Sansa, is a kid, and this comes with all the associated responsibility on the part of her parents and sympathy from the audience.
In my opinion, it does not entirely absolve the child of responsibility for their actions. I think it's no coincidence that Sansa's wolf is killed because she refused to tell the truth on the Trident, and her ending up in the Lannister clutches of her own volition during the coup.
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On 6/24/2023 at 6:18 AM, Springwatch said:
Ned is not Arya. I was arguing against the use of the word 'betrayal' because the primary implication of the word is that Ned himself, in person, was delivered by Sansa into the power of Cersei and as a consequence was executed. I think that's how most people hear it.
So we disagree about what betrayal does or does not necessarily imply.
On 6/24/2023 at 6:18 AM, Springwatch said:The whole ship thing isn't strong either:
- Nowhere is it shown that Sansa told Cersei about the ship.
- The spy networks extend to the docks, as shown by Catelyn's experience.
- The Starks are rubbish at keeping secrets. Ned sent his own steward to arrange passage, a man easily identified by the spies.
(Above from memory, I'll try and check it later.)(All good.)Seems like the guards at the ship are caused by Sansa telling Cersei Ned's plans, but it doesn't really matter.
On 6/24/2023 at 6:18 AM, Springwatch said:I do dispute it. 'Betrayal' has so wide a definition it's almost worthless: it covers everything from hurt feelings of one person, to loss, suffering and/or death for millions. It's a rubbish word, it only misleads.
You are disputing the common definition of a word, enjoy.
On 6/24/2023 at 6:18 AM, Springwatch said:Ned is big enough and old enough to take responsibility for his own decisions. And he is a class act who would never shift the blame for his mistakes onto the nearest family female, like those whiny Lannister babies (Cersei made me do it!)
To his credit he never sought to put the blame on anyone. We as readers can se the course of events more clearly, and in my opinion it's his faith in Cat's misplaced trust in Littlefinger that directly results in his downfall. You are entitled to disagree.
On 6/24/2023 at 6:18 AM, Springwatch said:I don't know. My instinct is that everyone carries on as they did before, playing the same role and strategies, but the stakes get much, much higher.
Also, so far it's been the strong against the weak, and the weak have been crushed miserably, but I think the weak will get their turn to make a difference in the coming plot. Bran's on the weak side. So is Sam. So is Sansa.
There are different kinds of strength. Hopefully one day we find out.
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20 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:
But there are Others and COTF and Direwolves and Giants. Maybe I just don't understand? Do you mean like yes there are Others, but they didn't ride giant ice spiders? What am I not getting here?
We don’t know if there were really ice spiders or not. We do know Others and Children exist.
Every detail of a story doesn’t need to be true for there to be truth behind the myth.
Cleftjaw is a nice example, fearsome raider, big nasty scar, didn’t literally put his head back together.
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Her tales are tales, not factual accounts of history, but they are all full of truth and wisdom.
Old Nan is a Targaryen, Aemon’s sister if I had to guess.
"Dragons," she said, lifting her head and sniffing. She was near blind and could not see the comet, yet she claimed she could smell it. "It be dragons, boy," she insisted. Bran got no princes from Nan, no more than he ever had.
Compare that to Aemon:
"I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed them, every one. Sam, we tremble on the cusp of half-remembered prophecies, of wonders and terrors that no man now living could hope to comprehend . . . or . . ."
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On 6/22/2023 at 2:43 PM, BlackLightning said:
As if her current backstory (child of rape with said parents being sibling-spouses, born during a Cat-5 hurricane, grew up an orphan on the streets of various cities, raised by an abusive older sibling) isn't compelling enough?
I would be absolutely shocked if the conclusion of this story is that Aerys successfully brought humanity’s savior into being by raping his sister wife.
That’s not compelling to me, it’s crazy.
13 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:One of my biggest problems - something I didn't mention before - that the arguments are usually based on retcons or late-game additions from AFFC and ADWD.
This idea is older than Feast and starts with Dany’s first chapter being so suspicious. These theories themselves are usually referred to collectively as Lemongate, since lemons don’t grow in Braavos, a details that’s been repeated in the series, begins before Feast, and usually forces deniers to hand wave it away or make lame excuses.
If you are going to strawman, do better
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1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:
?? What are you talking about?
Joke, don’t worry about it.
1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:But you said that it's somehow relevant that 'all her choices are her own'.
Of course it is. Why do you find these contradictory.
Peoples choices matter but their situation is largely determined by who their parents are.
1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:This is much more significant is she is the mad king's incest rape baby than if she is the product of the love affair of Rhaegar and Lyanna, it shows that your parents don't predetermine what path you choose, what choices you make.
I disagree with this though.
After all it’s not just her choices, but Aerys’s choices. And justifying the rape of his sister wife is a tough sell for me.
1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:I also used to believe that in the past, but too many things came up with point in the opposite direction... Aegon dreamed of the three-headed dragon facing the darkness (Others), Dracarys is associated with the slaves breaking their chains and accepting slavery (something the slaves oppose) is associated with dragons chained and locked up, and according to the author "Fire is love, fire is passion, fire is sexual ardor and all of these things. Ice is betrayal, ice is revenge, ice is… you know, that kind of cold inhumanity and all that stuff is being played out in the books.".
This is what I mean about missing the forest for the trees. The ends justify the means is a seductive argument, but I think it’s pretty clearly going to be condemned by the story.
I mean you know where the series got it’s name right?
Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.The Frost poem makes the ice/hate and fire/desire parallel we see reflected repeatedly in the series.
If love and hate can mate…
And the poem is a direct reference to Dante.
Never hope to see heaven: I come to carry you to the other shore, into eternal darkness, into fire and ice.
The series began, like Dante, in a dark wood were the easy way was lost.
Dante of course ends with: but my desire and will were moved already — like a wheel revolving uniformly — by the Love that moves the sun and the other stars.
1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:If dragons are purely a destructive force without their potential to achieve freedom, than what's the point of Dany's story, what should she do with her dragons? Kill them?
Well, blood sacrifice is probably not great in general.
I think you are missing the point of the storytelling with the constant hypotheticals.
Using monsters, be they dragons or Others, against humanity is bad, no matter your motive.
1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:We already have this storyline in ADWD: she has locked them up and didn't have much success, instead, she felt herself stifled, she felt she is giving up her values one by one ('selling out to the man'):.
Slavery is bad.
Enslaving the dragons isn’t good either.
1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:"She had taken a Meereenese slaver as her king, as wealthy as he was noble, and when the peace was signed and sealed the fighting pits of Meereen would open once again. Other slaves insisted that the guards were lying, that Daenerys Targaryen would never make peace with slavers. Mhysa, they called her. Someone told him that meant Mother. Soon the silver queen would come forth from her city, smash the Yunkai'i, and break their chains, they whispered to one another."
“Mother!” they cried instead; in the old dead tongue of Ghis, the word was Mhysa! They stamped their feet and slapped their bellies and shouted,
"Mhysa, Mhysa, Mhysa,” until the whole pit seemed to tremble. Dany let the sound wash over her. I am not your mother, she might have shouted back, I am the mother of your slaves, of every boy who ever died upon these sands whilst you gorged on honeyed locusts. Behind her, Reznak leaned in to whisper in her ear, “Magnificence, hear how they love you!”
She is the mother of dragons, and dragons eat innocent little girls.
I think you are highlighting more mistakes Dany will make before the end.
But again, it’s a story, there is merit to showing the ups and the downs, it’s not about roads not taken (another Frost poem!).
1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:She only began to feel as herself (and in her element) again once she has mounted Drogon and remembered who she is.
You think her portrayal at the end of Dance was her finding herself? Shitting her brains out? Just wild stuff… she’s still lost.
1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:How do you 'make love, not war' with slavers and Others or Ramsay Bolton?
To start, you do not kill children.
Justice is not the same as vengeance.
You need to better understand the Others. I would be shocked if the source/cause of their return isn’t a human, like Dany brought dragons back into the world.
1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:Yes, forgiveness and mercy is an important message of the series, but it should be given to those who are innocent or who realise that they sinned, not those who are unrepentant of their crimes.
This is addressed in the story. Mercy is not the same as absolving all crimes.
Justice is not the same as vengeance.
Mercy is forgiving personal wrongs, the crucial step in stopping the cycle of violence.
1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:As for the 'end justify the means', that's obviously not the message of the series and 'divine justice' sooner of later comes to those characters who consistently apply this principle.
“Divine justice” has a lot of implications I don’t think apply here.
But story telling justice, sure.
1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:I am not saying it doesn't exist, but it doesn't exist in the way Dany imagined it. Similarly, I expect Tyrion will find Tysha (GRRM already confirmed that we will find out 'where do whores go') but whatever love they had in the past no longer exists due to the actions of Tywin&Tyrion, the 'home' he was searching for doesn't exist.
I think you are wrong about the House with the red door.
1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:She felt the most free among them and she (as the Stallion Who Mounts the World) would be best suited to reform their lifestyle, she would definitely feel it is her duty to do so.
Ya I really do t see it. Home is Westeros for Dany, always has been.
1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:As GRRM said, it will be a bittersweet ending, not one where all Starks (which according to you involve Dany) get together and live out the rest of their life as one happy family.
I would be shocked if Dany is alive at the end of the story…
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6 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:
I don't see how is it a good story.
That’s ok, the story isn’t finished yet, and we are all entitled to our own opinions.
6 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:It's much powerful if she doesn't reevaluate her opinion about Eddard Stark because he is family and he saved her life, but because she recognizes that he is a fundamentally good person who is not to blame for her family's death and he tried to do his best to keep her nephew safe.
Ned’s dead baby.
Sounds like we see things differently.
6 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:This again works much better if she is the son of Aerys and Rhaella.
I really doubt she’s the mad king’s incest rape baby. Hopefully one day we find out.
6 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:She isn't forced to follow the legacy of her family: she can use dragons to destroy slavery instead of reinforcing it (like her ancestors did) and can decide to save the realm from the Others instead of pursuing the Throne she believes rightfully hers.
Oh ya, we really disagree here.
The idea that dragons are some key to salvation is a pipe dream. These things are forces of suffering and ruin, just like the Others.
This really doesn’t seem like a story about how we need good guys with nuclear weapons.
6 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:She isn't fully determined by who her ancestors are, she can forge her own destiny, and decide to stop dancing on the strings of those who came before her.
This is accomplished through forgiveness and mercy.
I’m convinced the moral of this story will be closer to make love not war than the ends justify the means.
6 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:Yes, searching family and home is an important aspect of Dany.
Hey! We agree!
6 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:Again, it would be much more powerful is she chose the Starks as family not because they are related, but because they become her chosen family.
You will likely get both payoffs I suspect.
6 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:As for the home, I don't believe the House with the Red Door exists as Dany imagined it, and that's really the crux of the 'Lemongate' mystery.
That’s a take, just deny the House with the Red Door exists at all.
“Lemons aren’t real!” Just isn’t a convincing case in my opinion, lol.
6 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:She will have to grapple with this revelation in ADOS and choose her own home (if I have to guess, it will be the Dothraki, the people she have felt the most free with).
The raping pillaging Dothraki? You want her to end up where she was sold off in the very first chapters?
Ah well, hopefully one day we find out!
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3 hours ago, Springwatch said:
Not substantive though - Sansa knows nothing at all that could hurt Ned.
I disagree. Her telling Cersei about the ship waiting to take them to Winterfell almost results in Arya getting caught.
3 hours ago, Springwatch said:She didn't get him killed, or imprisoned, or even hurt his feelings that we can see - he knows he did it to himself.
Never claimed she killed him, just betrayed him, which I don’t really think is up for dispute.
Ned’s one man in a thousand.
3 hours ago, Springwatch said:He gave Cersei all the information she needed to trap him, and besides he was completely naive to the spies and traitors of KL. He paid the price.
Ned trusted Cat when it came to Littlefinger. That was what got him killed.
There is no promise of a material reward for being a good man.
3 hours ago, Springwatch said:Villain or hero, as long as it's big, I don't mind. Sansa was always a big character - look at the time and plotting GRRM spends on her! There will be a pay-off.
I think the original outlines show Sansa was not originally a big character, and was supposed to have Joffrey’s kid, but her role has clearly changed with the telling. Although she’s basically been a pawn up until this point, I think we all hope she takes on a more active role.
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42 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:
It is mentioned that Daenerys and Viserys lost value to the magisters because of the possibility of a Targaryen restoration anytime soon becoming increasingly unlikely.
Illyrio saw value in them.
42 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:So they saw the initial value and then that value depreciated when it became clear they could not use them to gain influence in Westeros any time soon.
But only Drogo saw Dany as a valuable bride?
I don’t think it makes much sense.
19 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:I am sorry, but you are veering into intricate conspiracy theories at this point with the 'hidden fleet' nonsense.
Aurane’s hidden fleet isn’t a conspiracy theory.
We see that ships change hands in the story… if I’m going to be conspiratorial I’d suggest that the Targaryen Fleet formed the basis for Salla’s painted fleet.
19 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:Still, you cannot deny the fact that Viserys didn't recall the details of his departure from King's Landing correctly, and he had no reason to lie about it.
I think the repeated falsehoods, like the literary clues, are for the benefit of the reader.
19 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:Because it's multiple times stated in the text that Aerys was obsessed with blood purity. He wanted Rhaegar to wed a woman of Valyrian/Targaryen blood, and the best candidate would be his own sister.
He wed Elia long before Dany was born.
19 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:After years have passed and no daughter was born and lived, he decided to send Steffon to search for a Valyrian noble in Essos, and when it failed, decided to betroth Rhaegar to Elia, who had the most dragonblood out of all perspective ladies of the realm.
What about the decedents of Egg’s sisters?
19 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:Even after that, he despised Rhaegar's Dornish looking children and named Viserys his heir as soon as Rhaegar died.
This is never mentioned in the main series, although it does seem to be the case in the world book, although only after Rhaegar’s death when Aerys thought Dorne betrayed him.
The Kingsguard in the story don’t seem to have believed Viserys was the heir.
19 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:At this point it didn't matter, but Rhaella birthing a healthy daughter would have ended most of her suffering, since Aerys wouldn't come into her bed to claim his rights.
Would it? Again seems like a silly hypothetical.
19 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:It's pretty logical seeming Viserys' behaviour.
I can believe this, bnut could you please quote this?
Had I not taken the precaution of posting guards upon her door, Viserys might have undone years of planning."
19 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:Dany recalls that the interest in them waned over time. In truth, they are not much use for Essosi magisters who aren't interested in the power politics of Westeros.
They are though… as we see from Illyrio.
19 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:The problem is that Viserys has no reason to lie about small details.
But the author has reason to leave the reader clues.
19 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:Yes, because (probably) it was her that told Ned the location?
So you’re saying Ned might have reason to trust her?
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15 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:
Yes, but small, inconsequential storms don't result in a child being named after them.
It is said that, every seventy-seven years, a storm greater than all others comes howling down upon Storm's End, as the old gods of sea and sky try once more to blow Durran's seat into the sea. It is a pretty tale...but a tale is all it is. The records of the maesters of Storm's End show that there are fierce storms nearly every year, especially in autumn, and whilst some are greater than others, there are no records that show unusually powerful storms seventy-seven years apart. The greatest storm in living memory was in 221 AC, in the last year of the reign of Aerys I, and the greatest before that was the storm of 166 AC, fifty-five years earlier.
15 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:Jahaerys isn't named cruel despite the murderers of Lord Rego were "hung from the walls of the Red Keep, disemboweled, and left to twist until they died, their entrails swinging loose down to their knees.", which is pretty cruel.
Maegor already had that title!
15 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:No, but much of the realm doesn't believe it, unlike with Dany, for whom Robert and his entire Small Council was convinced of her existance.
She does exist, and she is called by that title.
15 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:No, it's not weak evidence when it comes to important characters of a character-driven story like ASOIAF, and in AGOT Viserys is an important character in Dany's story.
Oh I agree that Viserys is an important character, I just don’t agree on the assessment of the meaning of the story.
Characterization is great, I love it, but it’s clear Viserys did tell Dany things that were untrue, so you need to work that into the characterization.
15 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:You are suggesting that the incredibly arrogant, impatient and entitled Viserys is capable of carrying out an eleborate scheme of running with a fake sister and begging for years and never reveals the scheme to anyone (even when drunk).
Viserys isn’t the mastermind of any scheme, that’s pretty clear. But that he would sell Dany to the Dothraki is also clear.
Is there some other lie Viserys gives away while drunk you could use to support your point (I don’t remember one), that’s the sort of evidence that supports a theory.
15 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:This comes off as incredibly bad storytelling - a good example of such is the 'Joffrey sent the catspaw' reveal, which was very disappointing, and Viserys turning out to be a schemer would be ten times worse.
I don’t believe Joffrey sent the Catspaw.
15 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:??? This is not characterization as Lyanna's child, this is Dany set up as a Lyanna (and to an extent Rhaegar) parallel, following their legacies.
So you agree she’s characterized as a Stark…
15 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:Characterization matters when it comes to actions and behaviour of characters - for example, Stannis is described as a honest men but if we call his characterization into question then we can deem him as a power-hungry asshole during ACOK, even though ASOS proves that he is more than that.
"I am not without mercy," thundered he who was notoriously without mercy.
A lot of tangents here, I’m getting bored, mostly I love this quote.
15 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:Aerys wasn't present in Tyrion's birth.
It's relevant because GRRM says that 'Dany was named by her mother, Tyrion by his father and Jon by Ned'. It clearly spells out that it's the parentage of Jon that can be called into question.
Counterpoint, it calls into question all three parentages. The three original POVs who aren’t Ned, Cat, or their children.
15 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:Yes, dragons and liberation. Dragons represent both violence and freedom.
I think there is a lot more of a connection to slavery than freedom when it comes to dragons.
15 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:The 'flaming swords' that were usually used as weapons of oppression can also be used as weapons of liberation ('Dracarys'):
“There is a reason. A dragon is no slave.” And Dany swept the lash down as hard as she could across the slaver’s face. Kraznys screamed and staggered back, the blood running red down his cheeks into his perfumed beard. The harpy’s fingers had torn his features half to pieces with one slash, but she did not pause to contemplate the ruin. “Drogon,” she sang out loudly, sweetly, all her fear forgotten. “Dracarys."
“Unsullied!” Dany galloped before them, her silver-gold braid flying behind her, her bell chiming with every stride. “Slay the Good Masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who wears a tokar or holds a whip, but harm no child under twelve, and strike the chains off every slave you see.” She raised the harpy’s fingers in the air … and then she flung the scourge aside. “Freedom!” she sang out. “Dracarys! Dracarys!”
“Dracarys!” they shouted back, the sweetest word she’d ever heard. “Dracarys! Dracarys!” And all around them slavers ran and sobbed and begged and died, and the dusty air was filled with spears and fire."
and can be used to fight monsters:
“I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife’s blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame.” Clydas blinked. “A sword that makes its own heat …” “… would be a fine thing on the Wall.”
Dracarys.” The black dragon spread his wings and roared. A lance of swirling dark flame took Kraznys full in the face. His eyes melted and ran down his cheeks, and the oil in his hair and beard burst so fiercely into fire that for an instant the slaver wore a burning crown twice as tall as his head.”
So Dany commanding a dragon to burn a man alive represents freedom?
The Last Hero is another tangent I’m not going to address here.
15 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:I don't see how it is 'missing the forest for the trees', when it is clearly spelled out that she was 'once' the 'blood of the dragon' (=a Targaryen), but has forgotten and chained her dragons in the dark.
This expression means focusing on one part to the point where you miss the bigger picture.
I think the idea that the message to take away from this story is that fire and blood is the answer not peace and love is missing the meaning of the larger story.
15 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:She wanted to plant olive trees and see them fruit because she wanted to be a little girl, but in hard times she has to kill the girl (like Jon had to kill the boy) and let the woman be born (the man be born) as Aemon told.
Aemon isn’t right about everything, highlighted by the very section where he gives Jon this advice he once gave Egg. I don’t think it’s good advice.
Be like Ned, do what’s right!
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54 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:
I am claiming that Viserys calling his sister Dany makes a lot of sense, certainly better than your alternative explanation.
The one time we see Viserys call Dany, “Dany”, is when he pleads for his life before he dies.
Usually it’s just “sweet sister.”
Give me sweet lies, and keep your bitter truths. He drank his wine
Once again the sweet/bitter, fire/ice, lies/truths, female/male, light/dark, symbolism abounds and is worth noting throughout the story.
54 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:Yes, and when creating a false identity, it's better not to lie about small, meaningful, easily disprovable details - for example, the date of departure from KL or the circumstances of Dany's birth. The fact that Viserys' recalling of some minor details (details he has no reason to lie about) is incorrect actually points towards Viserys' memory not being perfect and not some elaborate scheme.
Or Viserys was lied too.
There is good reason to hide a stolen fleet, or a dragonspawn.
54 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:Except it wouldn't explain how could Ser Willam 'steal away Viserys and Dany' before Stannis arrived to Dragonstone. If the fleet turned sides, they would be able to lock down the island.
Depends what side they turned to.
We see Aurane Waters sail right off with a royal fleet to the stepstones.
A made up story of a fleet being destroyed would seemingly indicate a motive of trying to hide what actually happened to the fleet.
54 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:Because it's symbolic that the daughter Aerys (and probably Rhaella, since it would end the abuse) so desperately wanted was born the same day a storm destroyed the remaining strength of House Targaryen; the gods gifted a girl but at the same time took away from the Targaryens.
Why do you think Aerys desperately wanted a daughter? He already has children and grandchildren.
Dany was abused, how can you possibly say that it ended the abuse?
54 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:Because magisters were fed up with Viserys' arrogance and annoying behaviour and kicked him out, and Dany went with him. Alternatively, some agents of Varys contacted them and warned them of consequences (in the name of Robert) if they host them for too long.
Do you have any evidence of this?
Illyrio says he was planning Dany’s wedding to Drogo for years, and clearly has the means to house Dany and Viserys, yet they were only there briefly before the wedding.
Nobody else in Essos saw value in a pair of Targaryen children? Seems silly.
54 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:Robert has immediately known that Ser Willam escaped with Viserys and the babe. This means that some of the garrison or servants have told Stannis that Rhaella was pregnant, gave birth to a daughter and that baby girl wasn't in Dragonstone when Stannis' men have searched for her (as they definitely would).
Sounds like you are just making assumptions to suit your theory.
Where are you getting Robert knowing the babe’s gender from the text?
We don’t know where or when the follow up conversation between Stannis and Robert happened, not the circumstances of how information was passed. You can speculate, but it’s not evidence of anything.
That Rhaella was pregnant, and died in childbirth with Ser Willem fleeing with Viserys and a babe is not disputed.
54 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:It makes no sense for Ser Willem to escape with a stillborn babe (because he doesn't have foresight that someone will subsitute her in the future).
I agree, it’s more likely the baby just died very young, as so many sadly did. But the difference between that and a stillbirth kept secret is sort of irrelevant and we have no evidence to go on for more details.
54 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:Again, because Viserys was wrong about a small detail you assume that he told a full-blown (and easily disprovable) lie. This assumption doesn't make much sense.
Again, it’s not one small detail.
54 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:I don't think any of them are holes. Ashara's story has multiple possible explanations (e.g. being Septa Lemore, giving birth to a stillborn child of Brandon and throwing herself into the sea after hearing that her brother is also dead).
But there is evidence of a connection between her and Ned, and Ned did go to Starfall after the Tower of Joy.
54 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:Similarly, there are multiple options for the promise Ned kept and has broken: for example, he has kept the promise to keep Jon safe from Robert, but didn't keep the promise of telling him the truth or giving him the freedom Lyanna wanted for herself but never gotten. I highly doubt that Lyanna would want her fourteen year old son to choose a lifelong military service without even knowing what that entails (because Ned never told Jon the truth about the NW).
Or maybe it’s a reference to the first and only true Usurper’s knife sent after Dany, the wine merchant, who even appears in a House of the Undying vision.
54 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:Yes, that's what I am saying: they speculated and gossiped, but didn't have actual evidence, unlike some people in Dragonstone who have definitely seen Rhaella getting pregnant and giving birth.
They do have some evidence, Ned didn’t go to Harrenhall or War alone, even if it was only he and Howland who rode away from the Tower of Joy.
I don’t think either of us believe their rumors are entirely true, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t truth to be found in them.
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1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:
No, she is not:
"Ned had lingered scarcely a fortnight with his new bride before he too had ridden off to war with promises on his lips. At least he had left her with more than words; he had given her a son. Nine moons had waxed and waned, and Robb had been born in Riverrun while his father still warred in the south."
It's pretty reasonable for Cat to believe that Jon is slightly younger than Robb, even is he is a little bigger.
I’m not sure what you intend this quote to show.
Cat hears the rumor about Jon from the servants in Winterfell. When we hear the rumor from a servant, Harwin, it’s about Jon being conceived at Harrenhall.
1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:However, the same would be impossible if the age difference was more than 9 months (probably a year), she wouldn't confuse a baby with a straddler.
Or the timeline is just a little wonky
1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:It seems he was better than all his ancestors (except Daenys the Dreamer) though.
What? Rhaegar was wrong about just about everything… unless you think he or his son Aegon were the prince that was promised! Hell, the idea that he had to learn to use a sword is even irony, given the way he died.
1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:If all he was concerned was fucking, then why did Rhaegar return later?
When a man loves a woman sometimes they have sex and it’s not about duty or prophesy.
Return where?
I suspect Lyanna’s disappearance a few months after the Tourney of Harrenhall was when she could no longer hide her pregnancy.
She and Rhaegar then resided at the Tower of Joy until Rhaegar’s return to King’s Landing.
The Kingsguard remaining to guard his son, with Lyanna dying in a second pregnancy nine months later, when Ned found her.
1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:Again, the explanation that he waited for Lyanna to become pregnant with his prophesied third child to go back makes much more sense with Rhaegar's characterization of being dutiful.
The explanation that the child was already born makes more sense, and explains why the Kingsguard remained even after Rhaegar’s death, they knew a male heir was already born.
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51 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:
It's just your speculation, and there is nothing textual backing it up, no similar example is given (which would be necessary for a proper set-up of such a huge reveal).
The song of Danny flint, a woman pretending to be a man so she can serve is a parallel to Dany being the prince who was promised and the gender confusion there.
Lyanna’s grandmother was a flint.
51 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:They aren't full of nonsense. Viserys' retelling seems mostly correct, even if he doesn't get some details right or exaggerates somewhat. They fled to Dragonstone after Robert's victory (as confirmed by Jaime), their fleet was destroyed and Willam Darry smuggled them out (entirely consistent with Stannis' recalling).
There are multiple inconsistencies which with the stories she was told.
You can hand wave them away, I think they were intentional.
51 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:I don't think that's something uncommon in reality - there are events I remember happening in broad strokes, but don't recall the exact details correctly.
Sure, like the House with the Red Door being in Braavos.
51 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:The only detail that is notably wrong are the Usurper's Knives, but I think it's pretty reasonable for someone raised like Viserys to believe that Robert - the person who killed his brother and rewarded the murderers of his family - would send assassins after them to eliminate the last remnants of their dynasty.
I disagree this is the only one, just the most obvious.
Again you can hand wave it away, but I prefer to engage with the text.
51 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:No, it's not, that's what I tried to explain to you.
Clearly I disagree with you.
51 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:Ned is saying what would he do if a treason he committed (for example, hiding Jon) was exposed - he would flee accross the Narrow Sea (together with Jon I imagine).
It’s an incredibly strong parallel in my opinion.
Followed by Cersei saying Exile is a bitter cup to drink from, which I think is directly referenced in the House of the Undying. “Drink from the cup of ice… drink from the cup of fire”
Bitter and sweet being among the list of opposites paralleled with fire and ice (and make and female) given to us by Melisandre.
51 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:It's not creative brainstorming, it's called 'what would a character like Ned do in such a situation'.
Same thing. I don’t find much value in engaging with hypotheticals. But do you.
51 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:Why hasn't a naval battle taken place then? Why does nobody mention it?
I’ve never suggested there was a naval battle, nor that the Targaryen fleet was still there when Stannis arrived.
51 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:No, the Targaryen fleet didn't sail away, because Stannis says that 'William Darry steal away Viserys and Dany', not that Dany and Viserys sailed away with the Targaryen fleet.
Maybe they weren’t together. Maybe Stannis’s only information is second hand. Again, it’s only useful to address the story we do have, not the what ifs.
51 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:Stannis' retelling is much more consistent with Viserys' retelling (in broad strokes) than the headcanon you made up.
I disagree.
51 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:Announcing him with a title like Stormborn doesn't help to establish her identity if a large storm didn't actually happen when she was born.
Storms are extremely common in the narrow sea.
51 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:This is evidence. The only people who could have told Stannis about the existence of the babe that William Darry 'stole away' are the servants and the garrison of the castle.
I don’t understand what you think this is evidence of? That Willem didn’t trust the garrison and servants who were ready to turn them over to Stannis? That Rhaella had a nameless baby? That Viserys and Willem were gone before Stannis arrived?
Here’s a fun one. Who was the Maester of Dragonstone when Rhaella was pregnant?
There’s a lot we don’t know, so it’s important to pay attention to the details of what evidence we do have.
51 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:No, it makes no sense that Varys and Illyrio are such professionals that they can make the whole world believe that 'fake Dany' is real while they are unable to convince people that their chosen candidate Aegon is real.
So there’s no way Jon Connington believes young Griff is Aegon? Is that what you are saying?
51 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:Lack of evidence? Again, characterization exists and ASOIAF is a character-driven story. Your theory - that Viserys is a consummate liar who is patient enough to play a 'long-con' for years - is completely inconsistent with the character of Viserys we see in AGOT.
Characterization is generally very weak evidence, especially when being used to contest hard textual evidence. But if that’s the game you’d rather play…
Dany is repeatedly characterized as Lyanna’s child.
She is a natural rider without training of her stark colored horse, both she and Lyanna are described like centaurs.
She loves flowers, and wears them in her hair while dressed in Stark colors.
She is afraid of howling alone for a long time in the dark.
"You will drink," Dany said, cold as ice. "Empty the cup
etc etc
51 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:I quoted from the author himself. I see you don't have an answer to this.
I don’t think a debate about the GRRM quote about who was “most like” to name Tyrion which doesn’t include the fathers name is very relevant to this discussion. Although to be fair, Tywin doesn’t seem the sort of man to name a dwarf after himself, nor is it a similar style to Jaime or Cersei. But again, we digress.
51 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:They are monsters AND symbols of liberation at the same time. Going 'fire and blood' in slavers is not necessarily a negative thing, but applying it to Westeros - a place where she will not be welcomed so eagerly as she is welcomed by the slaves - will be negative.
Dragons… liberation?
What story are you reading? They are burning swords held over the world, responsible for the enslavement of most of Essos and the conquest of Westeros.
Too much light can hurt the eyes, my friend, and fire burns.
51 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:I don't see how it's a 'poorly thought out theory', when it's literally in the text:
“I am the blood of the dragon,” she told the grass, aloud.
Once, the grass whispered back, until you chained your dragons in the dark.
“Drogon killed a little girl. Her name was … her name …” Dany could not recall the child’s name. That made her so sad that she would have cried if all her tears had not been burned away. “I will never have a little girl. I was the Mother of Dragons.”
Aye, the grass said, but you turned against your children."
"No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.
“Fire and Blood,” Daenerys told the swaying grass."
She has forgotten who she is (a Targaryen) and her house words ('Fire and Blood').
Missing the forest for the trees.
Dany has brought fire and blood to slavers bay already.
I’ve never suggested that she was not the “blood of the dragon” or born of House Targaryen.
Remembering “who she is” and “who she was made to be” are likely two different things, which fits extremely well with what I’m saying.
Dany wants to plant trees.
I want to plant my olive trees and see them fruit.
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26 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:
1) Right, Ser Willem didn't call him Dany. Still, the person she spent most of her life with, Viserys, calls her in that nickname. It's not something she has made up.
Nobody is claiming Dany named herself… this is a strawman, and a poor one.
26 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:2) I also don't think it's likely that stone structures collapsed. However, the fact that Viserys' retelling and his details aren't 100% correct doesn't mean he is wrong about the main events, the big picture.
Any one discrepancy is easy to hand wave away, but there is a pattern of falsehoods that has emerged from the stories Viserys told Dany, which I think was intentional by the author.
26 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:He tells Dany about a midnight flight to Dragonstone, while Jaime recalls Rhaella departing in the morning. This is a good example of Viserys being right about the main thing (their flight, fuelled by Robert's victory), but is wrong about some particular details, either because his memory isn't perfect or because he tends to exaggerate.
The Usurper’s knives are kind of an important detail since they supposedly were why Viserys and Dany ran from court to court. But they didn’t exist. It’s not all trivial details. I would argue the possibility that the Targaryen fleet was not destroyed but co-opted could also be meaningnful.
26 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:Why would anyone decide to call her Stormborn after a minor storm? It makes no bloody sense. Nobody would understand why she is called by such a name, if it was just an ordinary storm.
Why give her a title at all? Why travel from court to court?
26 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:The ones who told Stannis that Ser Willam secreted away Viserys and the babe Daenerys:
"I built a fleet at Robert's command, took Dragonstone in his name. Did he take my hand and say, "Well done, brother, whatever should I do without you?" No, he blamed me for letting Willem Darry steal away Viserys and the babe, as if I could have stopped it." - Stannis, ACOK Prologue
The babe… again notice the lack of a name. I don’t think this is coincidence.
Rhaella may well have had a baby, but I suspect that child died like the results of so many of her other pregnancies.
26 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:It's also telling that Stannis never mentions a naval battle - which would have been definitely necessary without something destroying the royal fleet - or a big battle at Dragonstone against the Targaryen loyalists. This is entirely consistent with what Viserys told Dany - a big storm that destroyed the fleet, garrison who would have sold them out but they got away.
I agree the fleet was not there when Stannis arrived. This does not mean it was destroyed by imaginary blocks of stone. Maybe it simply sailed away. Maybe it was disloyal like the garrison, maybe it was co-opted.
26 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:1) Because Varys's story is likely a lie. It's much less convoluted than your story about Ned somehow secretly getting Dany to a red house, but still convoluted enough that it's likely not true.
People lie, yes.
What promise did Ned keep, what promise did he break? What happened to Ashara Dayne.
There are holes in the story.
26 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:2) Because it's much harder for servants to notice that a one year old babe was swapped out with a copy than a mother becoming pregnant and giving birth. The latter 2 events cannot be hidden.
The servant we actually read talk about it, Harwin, implies Jon was conceived at the Tourney of Harrenhall:
When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor. There's nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged.
26 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:Were any of the servants present at Jon's birth (besides Wylla)? Again, it's a wrong comparison.
We don’t know exactly who was at the Tower of Joy (besides the combatants), but I quoted Harwin above, who was a Winterfell servant and knew Jon, as he is who the reader does get a story from. Very clearly the point of the story being a conception at Harrenhall before Cat and Ned were engaged.
26 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:Besides, servants probably speculate about Jon's mother, but it wouldn't occur to them that Ned Stark of all people would lie.
We know they speculated that his mother was Ashara Dayne, and he was conceived at Harrenhall…
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17 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:
Sorry, it's not easy to believe that Cat is blind to the fact that her husband's bastard is actually a year older than Robb, because it's something that would improve Jon's claim (and chance to steal WF in her eyes) drastically.
But she is blind to it. By a year or a day, it’s pretty impossible for Robb to be older than Jon.
So if you want to argue that it’s hard to believe just how much she deluded herself, then ok, but she is deluding herself.
17 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:Rhaegar loved Lyanna, but he was also motivated by prophecy, wanting Lyanna to be the mother of his third child, the third head of the dragon.
Maybe, we have very little to go on about what actually happened let alone his motivations. What we do know is that he was not at all good at interpreting prophesy.
17 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:It makes no sense that he would impregnate her again when her brother and father have been killed and the country is in war, when he would have the option of overthrowing his father (and that's definitely what Lyanna would want) before the war spirals further out of control (as it happened).
Sometimes it’s not about politics or prophesy… sometimes when a man loves a woman… they fuck
How Come Robert Didn't cut Himself on the Iron Throne?
in General (ASoIaF)
Posted
Out of what 19? That's like a 1/4 of them!
We only know what we've been told, in my opinion that cuts both ways.