Mourning Star

For the readers benefit, obviously. The Targaryen fleet not being there doesn’t mean it was destroyed by a storm. As we see with Aurane Waters, sometimes they sail away. There may well have been a storm, there are lots of storms, the point is that it wasn’t tearing blocks from the smooth stone fortress to smash a fleet. The reason to be announced with titles all over Essos is so no man will doubt who you are. During what interaction would you expect this to happen? Who was there that you expect to object? On what ship? Because it’s all the things he told her. the midnight flight, when Jaime remembers it being morning the stone blocks torn from a fused stone structure the usurpers knives that didn’t exist Etc etc

Danny and Dany are the same name. Just wait until you realize the Willam/Willem piece of the puzzle. This is literally the point of what I’m saying, the things Viserys told Dany are full of nonsense. But they didn’t, we know they didn’t. Dany was raised on lies Ned is literally saying what he would do in the case of a child’s hair color giving evidence to a parentage that would incur Robert’s wrath… You can make up your own hypotheticals if you want, I’m inclined to believe the words on the page and find evidence more convincing than creative brainstorming. That is not evidence. Child of Storm At least get the quotes right. Been over this several times, the point of traveling from court to court “running” from imaginary knives and announcing Dany with a title like Stormborn is exactly to establish her identity. Ilkyrio could have put them up whenever he wanted, the “begging” was part of the plan. This is not evidence. This is a literary tool called dramatic irony. It is used repeatedly in the series. Who hosted Willam Darry and Viserys? Not a bunch of people… one dead Sealord. Again not evidence. I don’t find hypotheticals with a lack of evidence convincing or worth engaging with. GRRM might have planned Tyrion Targaryen in AGOT (with him dreaming about dragons, just like Jon), but there are plenty of hints that he dropped it since then. Believe what you want, seems off topic here. Whole lot of interpretation going into this, not worth addressing. I disagree. They are monsters. You want her to go full fire and blood and destroy or enslave people? Just seems like a really poorly thought out theory.

I’m just responding to the pedantic complaints about saying Sansa was cruel to Jon vs mean to Jon, I used cruel because that’s what Ned calls Cat… but if that’s somehow offensive to people and they need a different word to use for the negative behavior towards Jon, I don’t care. Seems like a silly discussion to me.

When does Ser Willem call her Dany? He called her "Little Princess" and sometimes "My Lady," It is not possible. The fused stone structures of Valyria don’t get blown down… and we even get a first hand account of Dragonstone and the gargoyles. He wondered if his gargoyles had ever seen its like. They had been hereso much longer than he had, and would still be herelong after he was gone. If stone tongues could speak . . . Such folly. He leaned against the battlement, the sea crashing beneath him, the black stone rough beneath his fingers. She is announced in Essos by a title in every court then news of her travels back to Westeros including the title. Doesn’t really matter if there was just some storm, it seems like there are a lot of storms around Dragonstone. What servants? Do they have names? Is there some account of this event besides the one told to Dany? Why don’t the servants mention the baby swap for the pisswater prince? Why don’t the servants talk about Jon’s parentage? Feel free to quote to the text. I agree there are some great parallels between the Bran and Dany stories/dreams. I disagree with your interpretation. Dragons don’t howl. At no point in the series will you find a reference to dragons howling. Wolves howl. Alone in the darkness is a reference to Ned’s explanation of the Stark sigil. "The hard cruel times," her father said. "We tasted them on the Trident, child, and when Bran fell. You were born in the long summer, sweet one, you've never known anything else, but now the winter is truly coming. Remember the sigil of our House, Arya." "The direwolf," she said, thinking of Nymeria. She hugged her knees against her chest, suddenly afraid. "Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm. Septa Mordane is a good woman, and Sansa … Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you … and I need both of you, gods help me."

Not sure GRRM is an expert on babies either. It’s easy for me to believe Cat is willfully blind when it comes to Jon. Its not clear to me that Luwin (and Benjen) didn’t know something: Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children." "That's true enough," Benjen said with a downward twist of his mouth. He took Jon's cup from the table, filled it fresh from a nearby pitcher, and drank down a long swallow. Not sure why you think that, I think Rhaegar actually loved Lyanna, wild I know… lol

When does Stannis mention a storm? Her title is because that’s how she’s been announced in the court of every Free City for years. The title was brought back to Westeros with news of Dany, they didn’t make it up and mail her the title in exile. How did Darry sail away if the fleet was destroyed by blocks torn from the castle (that isn’t made of blocks but fused stone and has stood for centuries)? Doesn’t even make sense.

If you want to make some meaningful distinction between Sansa being mean to Jon and Cat being cruel then sure, go for it, seems pedantic to me. In this story “cruel” describes everything from winter to Moon Boy’s mockery.

The only other Danny/Dany in the series is Danny Flint. We don’t have to rely on Dany’s memories alone. We know from Robert that there were no hired knives, we know from Cressen that Dragonstone isn’t made of blocks nor were they torn off in a storm. I trust Dany’s memories more than I trust Viserys. Did you read the thread? Ned’s own words dispute your assessment. If I were you, I should take ship for the Free Cities There is no evidence of a storm or that a fleet was destroyed. There is no evidence of these servants you mention. So I have no idea what you mean. Why? No bloody baby in a cloak was presented to him and called Dany. I disagree, I think Dany had a few years in the House with the Red door before anyone started claiming she was the daughter of Aerys. He doesn’t, he constantly abuses Dany. In fact he’s the first one to ask her if she remembers who she is. Just wait until you get to Tyrion. Three heads has the dragon. At what point does it seem like Dany has forgotten about being a Targaryen? LOL, she’s the mother of dragons. Remember the Undying. But, you’re not saying anything new that hasn’t already been said on this thread. Read it and make up your own mind, hopefully one day we get more of the story.

They are very similar words and you are being the definition of pedantic. You know what’s being referred to and are entitled to make your own opinion. Really. He missed the girls too, even Sansa, who never called him anything but "my half brother" since she was old enough to understand what bastard meant.

In my opinion, there are a few conflicting motivations and interests to consider when talking about the actions of House Tyrell in the series. First, Mace Tyrell is the head of the house, although the Queen of Thorns seemingly holds a great deal of power and influence. I think Mace's motivations are simpler and easier to parse. The Tyrells became lords of Highgarden and knelt to the Targaryens, Mace went to war in Robert's Rebellion on the side of the Targaryens, and was responsible for the siege of Stannis in Stormsend. With the Targaryen's deposed and Robert dead, Mace saw an opportunity to put his daughter on the throne as Renly's wife, he also has a vested interest in the new king not being Stannis, who might hold a grudge against him for the Siege of Stormsend. While Mace sems to have liked Renly, and preferred he ruled rather than the Lannisters, with Renly dead, he was willing to accept the deal that Margery would still become a queen and he'd side with the Lannisters rather than see Stannis become king. Ambition and shielding himself from Stannis are relatively simple motivations I can understand. Olenna, I think, is harder to fully understand. In part because she is possibly playing a much more subtle game, and certainly has more complex and confusing motivations. Olenna is a Redwyne by birth, was once engaged to Daeron Targaryen, and married to a Tyrell. Ironically, it seems to be implied that both Renly and Daeron were gay. The circumstances surrounding Daeron's death, putting down a rebellion by the Rat the Hawk and the Pig 5 years after breaking off the betrothal to Olenna and something like 30 years after three men going by the same names were involved with the death of Aelora Targaryen, are unclear. I also think it is worth noting that Tyrion stumbles across a cask of wine in Illyrio's cellar that bears the mark of Olenna's father, Runceford Redwyne. Also, possibly related, or not, the cask of poison wine the merchant tried to give Dany had a Redwyn sigil. The Tyrells and Redwynes are the first houses Viserys lists as those who have no more love for Robert than he has. Better for Daenerys, and for Westeros. Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled. The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses. All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father's wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief. It all goes back and back, to the Blackfyres, and Rhaelle Targaryen, who was wed to House Baratheon in the place of The Prince of Dragonflies, and from whom Robert derived his claim. Egg's second son was promised to House Tully, who sided against the Targaryens during Robert's rebellion, for the price of marriages to Houses Stark and Arryn. Daeron was the third son. Shaera, Egg's daughter was promised to Luthor Tyrell, before she ended up marrying Jaehaerys. If you subscribe to the theory that Illyrio and Young Griff represent the Blackfyre faction in the current story, one might consider what the Redwyne wine in Illyrio's cellar implies. Also of possible note, it's mentioned that House Peake and House Redwyne have intermarried. House Peake being notorious Blackfyre supporters. In conclusion, I think there is a circumstantial and not totally crazy case that one could make for Olenna being secretly involved with the Cheese Monger's scheming.

All good, I'm guilty myself often enough. I don't know, it seems like a pretty big and substantive betrayal to me, though not to the point literally killing Ned. The conflict was coming, and it was Littlefinger's choice to side with Cersei that really decided the matter (since he owned the Gold Cloaks in all but name). However, Sansa did clearly disobey her father and run to Cersei with his plans, which I think qualifies as a pretty solid betrayal. Not that we can't sympathize and understand her motives, but it was still selfish and disloyal. No interesting character is perfect, and I do think GRRM's plan for Sansa has become more interesting as the storytelling evolved, being less of a Cersei-lite and more a main character in her own right. I do think the jury is still out on what the future of Sansa's plot looks like, and personally do hope it becomes more about overcoming her situation than a tale of a victim becoming a villain.

You are rude and clearly misunderstood. Littlefinger explicitly betrayed Ned and plotted his downfall. From lying about the dagger, to having the gold cloaks side with Cersei. At that point, his mistreatment of Jeyne Poole is just another tear in the sea. Sansa betrayed Ned, by running to Cersei, but she didn’t kill her father.

You mean you disagree, that’s allowed! Come on… she was cruel. This is a description of cruelty. I’m not saying she had him beaten with sticks, just that she was mean. She was mean. More credit to him. After her father and all his men were killed? Because they take such great care of her? Unintended consequences are still consequences. Sort of a drop in the bucket compared to Ned’s death honestly… She is certainly ambitious, but I do want to believe she has enough morality left to not deliberately poison Sweetrobin for the sake of killing him and usurping him, but responsibility doesn’t require intent. I don’t fault people for wanting their enemies dead, it’s how they treat their friends and family that concerns me. Yes, although the parallels between Sansa and Cersei are way stronger than most and seem, at least to me, to be very intentional. I would speculate that their are two good reasons to do this, either show how a seemingly good character can become like Cersei, or how a good character can overcome and be better. I think time will tell. Finally, while I think a lot of people still want to deny it, I have to believe that Sansa ends up as the matriarch of House Lannister by stories end, fits too well.

I think the most satisfying explanation to me is that when talking about the “Aegon’s Prophesy” in the show we have to accept that it’s a super simplified version of what we see happening in the books. The idea that Aegon thought the Targaryens needed to unite Westeros to face the Others, is like cutting all the corners and uncertainty out of what we see in the books. Take all the prophesies and simplify it into one for the tv audience. Targaryens have had prophetic dreams going back to at least Daenys, before the doom. The story of Azor Ahai seems to be called the “prince that was promised”, but that translation also seems to include a genderless version of “dragon”, so maybe the dragon that was promised. Meanwhile the dragon has three heads, and house Targaryen is the blood of the dragon. The prince that was promised would be born of the line of Aerys and Rhaella, obviously comes long after Aegon, but we can see the Targaryen expectation for their decedents reflected clearly there. Meanwhile the Last Hero is said to have ended the Long Night with his blade of Dragonsteel. If we assume this is the same story as Azor Ahai, then he also seems to have united peoples in his twelve companions, who in the world book seem to have come from cultures all over the world (especially Essos), and there is talk about the followers of Azor Ahai getting resurrected… anyway, I digress. I think we need to see the TV version as an oversimplified version of the prophesy we see in the books, representing an amalgamation of prophesy and visions in a way that can be easily digested by the viewer. In the books it seems reasonable to me that Aegon had access to some old prophesies (like Rhaegar might have found in his books), and may have had dreams himself, like we see multiple Targaryens in the books have, but nothing so clear and concise as what is spelled out on TV. Rather we would expect some much more difficult to interpret vision or wordplay that misleads the characters.

So I don’t like using the show as evidence, nor do I think Cersei and Sansa are the same, but I agree that there are very strong parallels between them, although Cersei is much more extreme in her dislikable behavior. Both mistreat their brother, the “bastard in their father’s eyes”. Sansa is cruel to Jon, while Cersei is physically abusive to Tyrion. Of course the situations aren’t exactly the same, Cersei blames Tyrion for her mothers death, while in the case of Jon it’s his mother who is dead. Cersei pushes her best friend down a well, while in Sansa’s case, Jeyne Poole suffers a fate some might consider as bad or worse than drowning in a well, but with a far less literal and direct push from Sansa. Still, Sansa’s callous disregard for her best friend is a possible parallel to Cersei. Both Cersei and Sansa have ambitions of being queen, Cersei dreaming of Rhaegar and Sansa of Joff. Cersei lies to Jamie about it, while Sansa lies about the Trident incident. They would both go on to be victims of royal abuse, and participate in the murder of the abuser. I don’t think we know how this parallel will play out, but I do think that how Sansa deals with Sweetrobin will be the breaking point. If she participates in a plot to poison her cousin and marry his heir to usurp his seat, then I think she’s headed down the same road as Cersei. If she is able to save her cousin, then she can hopefully be a foil to Cersei rather than a reflection.

Are the eyes unchanged? "I do. My time is done." Jaqen passed a hand down his face from forehead to chin, and where it went he changed. His cheeks grew fuller, his eyes closer; his nose hooked, a scar appeared on his right cheek where no scar had been before. And when he shook his head, his long straight hair, half red and half white, dissolved away to reveal a cap of tight black curls. Personally, I think it might be the voice that's the giveaway. The voice was strangely familiar, yet it took Ned Stark a moment to place it. "Varys?" he said groggily when it came. He touched the man's face. "I'm not … not dreaming this. You're here." The eunuch's plump cheeks were covered with a dark stubble of beard. Ned felt the coarse hair with his fingers. Varys had transformed himself into a grizzled turnkey, reeking of sweat and sour wine. "How did you … what sort of magician are you?" ... Something about the way he talked reminded her of Syrio; it was the same, yet different too.

I tend to think that him being a Stark was the reason to wipe his name from the histories. Both the Night King and the Last Hero are titles, I think it's not unreasonable to speculate that they were the same man whose name was wiped from history. The trees remember. I'm of the opinion that Bloodraven is not the three eyed crow, Old Nan is. Great catch, might explain why the First Keep in Winterfell is in ruins!

In my opinion, no character is more slept on than Old Nan. Just a little old lady used as the source of some worldbuilding background info? I think not! People come up with wild Targaryen offspring theories, meanwhile she's sitting there, right from the beginning, with her unidentified eye and hair color, in addition to a mysterious past which saw her arrive in Winterfell from somewhere unspecified. She smells dragons in the red comet, and tells stories about King's Landing and Aegon's Conquest along side those of the North. "Dragons," she said, lifting her head and sniffing. She was near blind and could not see the comet, yet she claimed she could smell it. "It be dragons, boy," she insisted. Bran got no princes from Nan, no more than he ever had. Meanwhile Old Nan has no problem calling Bran a "little lord". Even more interestingly, I believe Old Nan is the three eyed crow, not Bloodraven. "The crow is the raven's poor cousin. They are both beggars in black, hated and misunderstood."

Since the only tale of the Night’s King we get came from Old Nan, and she says he was a Stark, I think we do know. Im all for questioning ancient histories, but we need to have some basis that can be relied on. When there is conflicting information, that’s a reason to be suspicious. But when we only get one source, and that source is old Nan, I have to believe her. Sorry, not sure what you are trying to say here. The Night’s King was a Stark, the brother of the Stark in Winterfell. What makes you think the Last Hero wasn’t a Stark or Stark ancestor? Where are you getting 2 Red Kings sacking Winterfell? As for the consolidation of the seven kingdoms from the hundred kingdoms, that just seems like the historical timeline… is there some other king consolidating land faster that you are using for a comparison?

We don’t know the exact strength of the Night’s Watch but they were commanded by the Night’s King, who was a Stark and was cast down by a Stark, so claiming the Starks were “only” petty kings seems kinda silly to me.

So first let me say that I think you have some great content here, so thank you! I'm still inclined to think Lem Lemoncloak is Richard Lonmouth, but I do understand the skepticism. As for Geoffrey of Monmouth, I would agree that there seems to be a connection to House Lonmouth, and his works are almost certainly a source of inspiration for the series. In particular the Prophesy of Merlin, and the tales of King Arthur. Yellow and black chequy would be even more Lonmouth, on that I agree, but I don't think it's a requirement. We have cases like Lord Blackwood and his yellow armor too. This is where I still struggle. It seems pretty explicit that the name Lem comes from the lemon colored cloak. Who seems to know him from the past? It shows it's a name, or nickname, used elsewhere, but I'm not sure about the leap to it being short for Willem. In the Dunk and Egg series, Eustace is constantly calling Dake by the name Lem. I see some of Robin Hood in the Brotherhood without Banners, but I'm not sure how much I can extrapolate from that. I don't necessarily agree with this assessment. "Most of us" simply means the majority of a group which includes the speaker, I don't think it means the speaker has to be in the majority. "Most of them" excludes the speaker from the group entirely. For instance, "most of us are hungry, but I just ate," isn't contradictory. It's an interesting idea, I'm not sure the title "knight of kisses" tells us enough to know for sure the skulls weren't on the arms yet, but it could be possible. Perhaps, we have very little to go on. Is this the only one we know of? House Quoherys, the first Lord of Harrenhall after the conquest, seems to have skulls, but that's digging pretty far into the semi-cannon, and frankly doesn't seem super relevant. Still, it's an interesting idea. Just food for thought, House Plumm also has it's sigils on a field of yellow, and both House Plumm and House Manwoody are involved with the tale of Elaena Targaryen... not at all sure how (if at all) these things fit together, but there it is. I will say, the arms of House Lonmouth remind me of the song the Donishman's Wife. Skulls and Kisses. The Dornishman's wife was as fair as the sun, and her kisses were warmer than spring. But the Dornishman's blade was made of black steel, and its kiss was a terrible thing. The Dornishman's wife would sing as she bathed, in a voice that was sweet as a peach, But the Dornishman's blade had a song of its own, and a bite sharp and cold as a leech. As he lay on the ground with the darkness around, and the taste of his blood on his tongue, His brothers knelt by him and prayed him a prayer, and he smiled and he laughed and he sung, "Brothers, oh brothers, my days here are done, the Dornishman's taken my life, But what does it matter, for all men must die, and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife!" One has to wonder if the brothers in the song are brothers by blood or by oath, and if by oath, which brotherhood.

Like I said, it's not impossible, I just don't see it. And once again making random comparisons to other characters/theories is not helpful. I don't agree with the Mance/Rhaegar or Qhorin/Arthur parallels so this isn't convincing. I'm not sure what you are trying to say about Arya at the House of White and Black. Love and death are an old and obvious pairing for symbolism certainly. A hedge knight isn't the same as one of the small folk, and the point isn't that anyone can't have a cloak, it's that they are used as symbols repeatedly, and a high quality one is a hint that the character is not a peasant. It doesn't sound like even you are arguing that Lem is a peasant, so I think it's obviously worth noting the color of the cloak. Also, we see plenty of other examples of a single color from heraldry reflected in a cloak. He had bad teeth and a bushy brown beard, but it was his hooded yellow cloak that drew the eye. Thick and heavy, stained here with grass and there with blood, frayed along the bottom and patched with deerskin on the right shoulder, the greatcloak gave the big man the look of some huge yellow bird. Fair enough, the knight of skulls and kisses is as close as we get to their heraldry in the main series. This is a tale which grows in the telling after all. Why? I don't understand. Who did Beric lose? Who did Edric lose? who did Thoros lose? I don't think this generality applies to the men sent by Eddard from King's Landing, and the fact that he sent people not from the Riverlands to deliver justice seems intentional. "When we left King's Landing we were men of Winterfell and men of Darry and men of Blackhaven, Mallery men and Wylde men. We were knights and squires and men-at-arms, lords and commoners, bound together only by our purpose." I just don't think this applies to those sent by Eddard from King's Landing. If he was in the throne room, then perhaps. He certainly wasn't named, but then Beric took men with him who weren't named. It's not clear to me how powerful House Lonmouth is, or even if they have their own keep. They may be in service to House Dondarion. You don't think his mother named him Lem do you? I don't totally hate the idea that Lem could be short for Willem, but again, if we aren't going to trust the story we are told about Lem coming from Lemoncloak then why trust that his name is really Lem? I'm not sure I see any indication that Lem is short for Willem here. One was too old, two were too young, and one skinny boy turned out to be a skinny girl. Those Dunk sent back to their villages, leaving eight: three Wats, two Wills, a Lem, a Pate, and Big Rob the lackwit. Except that isn't Thoros the scarlet one and Lem more of the Little John prototype? Not necessarily. "Most of us" doesn't indicate if it includes him or not. But it's only a theory and so one can't expect to find any proof, at least yet. You are obviously entitled to believe what you want, I can only present it how I see it. I can't be sure it's true, but I do think it's a pretty good idea which provides both character development/backstory and plot payoff.

Lonmouth not being anyone in the current story is possible, I just doubt it. You certainly can, but I'm not sure we have any clues to base speculation on. Lem seems a little old to me to be a cousin of Lyman, but I suppose it's not impossible (and cousin can be a broad term). And the yellow cloak which matches the color of House Lonmouth's arms. "Dreams," grumbled Lem Lemoncloak, "what good are dreams? Fish women and drowned crows. I had a dream myself last night. I was kissing this tavern wench I used to know. Are you going to pay me for that, old woman?" "The wench is dead," the woman hissed. "Only worms may kiss her now." Parallel symbolism and physical evidence together make for a stronger case, in my opinion, than you seem to be suggesting. A skin of wine for my dreams, and for my news a kiss from the great oaf in the yellow cloak." The little woman cackled. "Aye, a sloppy kiss, a bit of tongue. It has been too long, too long. His mouth will taste of lemons, and mine of bones. I am too old." Ok, but there are also very clearly multiple characters in the story with false identities and hidden pasts, so I think it's more helpful to discuss the topic at hand than compare to random other characters/theories. Does he? "We're outlaws. Lowborn scum, most of us, excepting his lordship. Don't think it'll be like Tom's fool songs neither. You won't be stealing no kisses from a princess, nor riding in no tourneys in stolen armor. You join us, you'll end with your neck in a noose, or your head mounted up above some castle gate." Because it reads to me like a pretty obvious caveat here. Beric, Edric, and Lem appear would seem to me to be the only nobles among them. Clearly I disagree. This is a large well armed man with calloused hands who knows how to fight. I think it likely he was knight even before the Brotherhood Without Banners was formed and they were all knighted. And of course the most obvious and remarkable thing he has, the cloak. We see nobles dress in their house colors, and a nice great cloak is a mark of nobility right from the prologue of Game of Thrones. The Wikki/App claim Lem came with Beric from King's Landing... for whatever that is worth. I'm not sure I see any evidence that Lem is from the Riverlands. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion Lem losing his wife/daughter was recent. It seems to me more like something he has been sour about for some time. There is a Willem Lannister too... but... "Well, as to that, I'm Tom of Sevenstreams, but Tom Sevenstrings is what they call me, or Tom o' Sevens. This great lout with the brown teeth is Lem, short for Lemoncloak. It's yellow, you see, and Lem's a sour sort. And young fellow me lad over there is Anguy, or Archer as we like to call him." Seems pretty explicit that the nickname comes from the cloak.

I asked who you thought Lonmouth was, not Lem.

I don’t think it does, and I’m not sure why you say this, it seems more that you assume liking Rhaegar means hating Robert, but I don’t see any reason this would be the case. I agree, and it’s probably part of what makes his perspective interesting. And potentially the only one still alive to share information. Has anyone mentioned Lonmouth being with Rhaegar when he kidnaped Lyanna? Even if we assume he was, how would Robert know that? It is one piece of evidence, as it fits with the colors of the house and is a major identifying characteristic of the character. If you don’t think Lem is Lonmouth, who do you think is?