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Mourning Star

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  1. I totally see what you are saying but I think Bran is in the Heart of Winter at the end of Dance, Bloodraven's Cave. Or if that's not the Heart of Winter, it is at least what Bran saw in the dream, and what needs to be dealt with! But flying there is for sure an option haha
  2. I would be willing to bet that the answer here is very reminiscent of LotR. You can't beat the army, you have to take out the source of the power. So after Bran escapes Bloodraven's cave, probably using the underground river, a group of heroes will have to venture back north to defeat the dark lord with one red eye watching everything from his fortress beyond a giant wall, so that a peace can be established with the Singers/Others.
  3. You are either being willfully ignorant of what I was saying, missed the point entirely or are just trolling... "In that darkness, the Others came for the first time," she said as her needles went click click click. "They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. Iron predates the Andals in Westeros. They may never have disappeared at all, just been far north. People in Westeros didn't even believe in Giants. I'm not sure why this is relevant. There is no indication they hate every type of metal that I know of. But Iron is directly referenced, and appears in the crypts (if the old swords were bronze as you suggested they would not have rusted anyway). I do find it laughable that one could have read this series and still doubt that Nan knows what she's talking about. It is literally highlighted as being the original keep, but of course things changed? Are you really just trolling? It has time worn Gargoyles and all. Not only that, the discrepancy is highlighted in the World of Ice and Fire in case you missed it in series. Not talking about the ancient level. Specifically the stone part of the tower. Most credit its founding to the second son of Uthor of the High Tower, Prince Peremore the Twisted. Don't understand what you are trying to say here. But the lack of writing is presented as the reason for a lack of accurate history. Obviously if you could skinchange and store memories in animals and trees writing is unnecessary. Ok, almost all of this is wrong. We don't know the Night's King's name at all, explicitly. And there is confusion about the numbering: You can like whatever you like, but confused I am not. Feel free to disagree or present alternatives, this is all for fun, but maybe try using supporting evidence if you want to come across as more rational. I'd suggest that there were probably 13 heroes, the last hero and his 12 companion, gathered from all over the world. Followers of R'hllor say the hero's name was Azor Ahai, while other cultures call him Hyrkoon the Hero, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser. Tales from Yi Ti speak of a heroic woman with a monkey's tail, and legends from the north regale about a last hero who gained the aid of the children of the forest. The Starks were probably not First Men from Westeros, or at least they had direct contact with more developed peoples. They were far more technologically advanced than what is presented as the standard for the time, probably part of why they could conquer the North.
  4. This is almost certainly wrong. Or, if you prefer, the Starks were not primitive First Men. A few details about Winterfell bring this into stark relief (sorry couldn't help it!). The kings of winter are buried with iron sword, and the Others are said to have hated iron. And yet, common wisdom in Westeros is that ironworking was brought to Westeros by the Andals. Not only that, but the first keep of Winterfell is particularly interesting for two reasons. It is round, and it is covered in gargoyles. Neither of which fit with the traditional picture of the First Men. Perhaps Winterfell and the Starks were not just another kingdom of primitive First Men. Stormsend and the Hightower are both also said to have been built by Bran the Builder, and are also round. It is also often overlooked that the order of Maesters appears to have been founded at the same time as the Night's Watch, and even shares similar vows. You also speculated about the Night's King, which is always fun! The Night's King is said to have been the 13th lord commander, but the list of lord commanders is messed up and the numbering doesn't work out according to Sam. The Last Hero had 12 companions he lost on the way to finding the Children of the Forrest after the armies of men had failed. I would suggest the numbering confusion comes because these twelve companions are listed before the Night's King as the first members/commanders of the Night's Watch. I would also suggest that Nissa Nissa from the tale of Azhor Ahai became the corpse bride of the Night's King. The Last Hero, Azhor Ahai, and the Night's King were the same man. He forged a flaming sword in the heart of his wife to wage a war against the Others, and sought out the Children to learn their language/magic. But power can be used for good or ill, and he used that magic to bring his Nissa Nissa back and to rule for 13 years (a generation) from the Nightfort during what came to be known as the Long Night. I would also suggest that while the Others may bring winter and darkness with them, the Long Night was caused by a man, the Night's King, and not the Others themselves. Finally, I'd suggest that Joramun, who blew the horn of winter and woke giants from the earth, is actually the name of an Other king beyond the wall, and that the Night's king was cast down by an alliance between his own brother, the Stark in Winterfell, and Joramun. The stories and myths have been twisted as they have been passed down. Much like how stories are told about King's Guard long before Aegon's Conquest (or knights for that matter). The explanation for Symeon Star eyes (who has sapphire eyes and fought with a double bladed sword, aka a sword with no hilt, sorcery) and Merwyn of the Mirror Shield (who slew a dragon behind his magic active camo) is that they were Others in Westeros before the wall was built.
  5. Thank you, but I'm a little confused, or maybe I wasn't clear. When I say Monster, I mean the child left behind by Gilly in the care of Val. Aemon Battleborn/Steelsong was the Child of Dalla and Mance, who is now in the care of Gilly. I am not trying to speculate that Mance or Dalla had Targaryen blood here.
  6. I would suggest that she says this because Nan is the three eyed crow. You will notice that Bran explicitly has dreams of the Weirwood and of the crow and they are distinct. And it's clear the crow and weirwood don't always appear together, they are different entities. And the three eyed crow speaks in a voice as sharp as swords: Needles are as sharp as swords! (they even have an extra "eye") We never get Nan's eye or hair color for a reason, the same reason she never calls Bran a "prince", and the same reason she knows the comet means dragons, she is a Targaryen.
  7. I hate to derail this thread... but since you asked! In short (lol in retrospect), Bloodraven is not the three eyed crow from Bran's dream, but the Brooding Weirwood. He is training Bran not to save the world, but so he can take his body. We learned in the Varamyr chapters that magic (like the ability to Warg or Skinshift) is tied to the body, so he loses it when he bodysnatches someone without powers of their own. Bloodraven doesn't even know what Bran is talking about when he mentions the three eyed crow, and thinks he is talking about the night's watch, which makes no sense since the crow and bran talk about it having wings in the falling dream. The hour is late for Bloodraven. He wants a new powerful body... Bran's. Going back to Bran's falling dream, he even see's Bloodraven's lair as the Heart of Winter: The jagged blue white spires are the frozen weirwoods on the hill beneath which Bloodraven sits: You will notice the reference to Ned's "you can only be brave when you are afraid" from Bran's first chapter and both the falling dream and his seeing the frozen trees. I will come back to this in a moment. Meanwhile there are literally thousands of bones of dreamers impaled on the points of the trees... impaled on the roots. You will note the cave is full of ravens, not crows. I think the distinction is important, as I mentioned, Bloodraven is not the three eyed crow. Bloodraven spent 13 years as lord commander before abandoning his post. He broke just about every rule the old gods have. Kinslaying, oathbreaking, violating guest right, incest, etc. Maybe even more damning he gives Bran opposite advice from what Ned and Nan had raised him to believe. The very first lesson we are told is that it is ok to be afraid. And Nan has words of wisdom in this regard as well: It is a huge red flag that Bloodraven seems to advise not knowing fear. Because if ever there was a time for fear, this seems to be it: Fear is for the darkness. And Bran should fear Bloodraven, as perhaps should the realms of man. My guess is that Bloodraven is pissed that he believes he gave everything he had in life for the sake of a kingdom which seems to despise him, the bastard sorcerer, and maybe even as a legitimized son of the dragon he seems himself as the rightful lord of the seven kingdoms.
  8. If you are asking me, I would bet that Bloodraven is responsible for the return of the Others.
  9. Also, you reference the Frost poem, Fire and Ice, which in turn is also a reference to Dante's Divine Comedy. Another Frost poem, The Road Not Taken, is also a famous reference to the opening of Dante's Inferno: "In the middle of the journey of our life, I came to myself, in a dark wood, where the direct way was lost. It is a hard thing to speak of, how wild, harsh and impenetrable that wood was, so that thinking of it recreates the fear. It is scarcely less bitter than death: but, in order to tell of the good that I found there, I must tell of the other things I saw there." It cannot be overly stressed how the prologue of Game of Thrones is a reference to this as well, with the brothers in the middle of a dark wood where the easy way was lost and coming face to face with "death". It would not be surprising to see the ending reference Dante as well. Here force failed my high fantasy; but my desire and will were moved already—like a wheel revolving uniformly—by the Love that moves the sun and the other stars.
  10. I would add that war wasn't how men ended the Long Night in the first time around: "So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions." The Last Hero set out after the armies of men failed. He learned the language of the Singers and forged a peace.
  11. I want to revisit A Game of Thrones, Jon VIII, and take a look at the conversation between Aemon and Jon. First, I will try to explain how I interpret Aemon’s metaphor about ravens and men. Second, I want to look at what this means for the three men being discussed here, namely Jon, Aemon, and Ned. Finally, I want to point out how I believe this supports a fantastic “monster” theory! It seems clear that Aemon has a deeper meaning intended here, even Jon can see that, and this appears to be highlighted for the reader. We see Aemon directly compare ravens to men, ravens to other birds, and explain that not all men or birds are the same. The Night’s Watch prefers ravens because they are fighters, those stronger and more capable of preforming their tasks, even if they are distasteful. The same can be said of the men they recruit. However, Aemon fears they share a taste for blood. While an obvious interpretation here would be a taste for violence, I don’t think it’s a stretch to say this could be a taste for “flesh” as in woman, especially given the rest of the conversation. In fact, the next line after Jon wonders what Aemon is talking about is: Aemon suggests that it is so they will not love, for love is the death of duty, but this doesn’t sound right to Jon. Like ravens not all men are the same. He would do what was right. Said "ringingly" no less, and a ring is exactly what makes a wife (and missing a ring on a finger is what makes a bastard). This also begs the reader to question what is right, and I think it is clearly something different (or at least more nuanced) than what Aemon is saying, which seems to be that duty and honor are the “right” choice, and love is a threat to that. For Ned, what to do with Jon was obviously a hard choice. After two strong men fought over the finger of his sister Lyanna (like the two strong ravens fighting over a choice piece of finger joint sized meat), Ned had to choose what to do with Jon. Like Mormont’s raven is “a rare bird”, so is Ned, he is “a man in ten thousand.” Both show remarkable self discipline, and are not ruled by a taste for flesh. Ned chooses love over duty with Lyanna, but chooses duty over his lust when it came to his own marriage. Things are not as simple as Aemon suggests, and one should not conflate desires of the flesh with love, any more than one should view love as simply a threat to duty. Aemon confirms that most men are not as strong as Ned, himself included. Aemon has had his vows tested three times, as he tells us a few paragraphs later, and these three questions certainly appear to describe his tests. Aemon is one of the oldest people in Westeros. I would suggest that his definition of “boy” and “man” are not just based on age. This is supported by his own words: Aemon was only two years older than Aegon, and I believe he still saw himself as some ways still a boy before he became a man of the Night’s Watch. Aemon put aside his name when he became a master, but did he consider himself a man before he joined the Night’s Watch? I’m not so sure. It's possible the first test came when he was a Maester but not a brother of the Night's Watch. I could even speculate that Marwyn is his son... perhaps another time. The third of Aemon’s tests is the most obvious. The memory of his brother’s smile: However, this raises the obvious question about the other two tests, who was the woman who loved Aemon, and who is his son? I believe the answer to these questions comes from one of Jon’s own tests, Ygritte: The obvious comparison here is that Targaryens do wed their family/siblings. Jon is almost certainly of Targaryen descent. But, perhaps, so is Craster, his daughter/wife Gilley, and their child, Monster! I would suggest that the woman who loved Aemon was from Whitetree village, and that the newborn son he held in his arms was none other than Craster. It is worth noting that we do not get an eye color for Craster, and that his hair color is grey/white. While this description might not be reminiscent of Aemon himself, it does bear some resemblance to his father, Maekar. And Aemon was named for someone who may or may not have had an illegitimate child themselves. There is also remarkable irony if this is all true. Jon’s plan to swap Gilley and Mance’s babies so as to keep Kingsblood out of reach of Melisandre may have done just the opposite. Some hysterical “nonsense” if I do say myself… Mance was a king in more than name, and perhaps there is some truth to this nonsense about King’s blood. I look forward to learning more about this nonsense… If you look at the quote above, you will see Aemon doesn’t name a dreamer, but does mention his brother’s dream in relation to prophesy. If I had to guess this is a reference to Daeron. The glass candles are lit. And we see Baelor referenced again, the same king who is referenced by Aemon as who tried to replace ravens with doves back in the original passage, also tried to burn the books by Barth. I believe that Monster, the child of Craster and Gilley, is the Grandson/Great-Grandson of Aemon Targaryen, and has more than a drop of kings' blood.
  12. There is a common motif in myth of three women who determine fate. The Graeae of Greece known as “the grey ones”; the Moirai of Greece, or the Parcae or fates, the Roman evolution into the personification of destiny, past present and future; and the Norse Norns who ruled the destinies of gods and men watering the world tree Yggdrasill from the Well of Urdr (Well of Fate); and the Irish Morrigan, often described as a trio of individuals, all sisters, called "the three Morrígna". I would suggest that there are three crones in Westeros who generally fit with these descriptions. The Graeae The Graeae were daughters of the sea-deities Phorcys and Ceto (from which their name the Phorcydes derived), and sisters to the Gorgons. The Graeae took the form of old, grey-haired women. Their age was so great that a human childhood for them was hardly conceivable. the "well-clad" Pemphredo (Πεμφρηδώ "alarm") and the "saffron-robed" Enyo (Ἐνυώ "horror" the "waster of cities" who also had an identity separate from this sisterhood) and Deino (Δεινώ "dread", the dreadful anticipation of horror). They shared one eye and one tooth, which they took turns using and were beings on whom no ray of sun ever looks down, nor moon at night. By stealing their eye while they were passing it among themselves, the hero Perseus forced them to tell the whereabouts of the three objects needed to kill Medusa (in other versions the whereabouts of Medusa) by ransoming their shared eye for the information. Hesiod says, “the Graiai, with fair faces and gray from birth, and these the gods who are immortal and men who walk on the earth call Graiai, the gray sisters, Pemphredo robed in beauty and Enyo robed in saffron.” The Moirai Clotho (/ˈkloʊθoʊ/, Greek Κλωθώ [klɔːtʰɔ̌ː] "spinner") spun the thread of life from her distaff onto her spindle. Her Roman equivalent was Nona ("the ninth"), who was originally a goddess called upon in the ninth month of pregnancy. Lachesis (/ˈlækɪsɪs/, Greek Λάχεσις [lákʰesis] "allotter" or drawer of lots) measured the thread of life allotted to each person with her measuring rod. Her Roman equivalent was Decima ("the Tenth"). Normally seen clothed in white. Atropos (/ˈætrəpɒs/, Greek Ἄτροπος [átropos] "inexorable" or "inevitable", literally "unturning",[19] sometimes called Aisa) was the cutter of the thread of life. She chose the manner of each person's death; and when their time was come, she cut their life-thread with "her abhorred shears".[20] Her Roman equivalent was Morta ("the dead one"). The Morrígan The Morrígan is often described as a trio of individuals, all sisters, called "the three Morrígna". Membership of the triad varies; sometimes it is given as Badb, Macha and Nemain. Mor may derive from an Indo-European root connoting terror, monstrousness cognate with the Old English maere (which survives in the modern English word "nightmare") and the Scandinavian mara and the Old East Slavic "mara" ("nightmare");[14] while rígan translates as "queen". This etymological sequence can be reconstructed in the Proto-Celtic language as *Moro-rīganī-s. Accordingly, Morrígan is often translated as "Phantom Queen". Her role was to not only be a symbol of imminent death, but to also influence the outcome of war. Most often, she did this by appearing as a crow flying overhead, and would either inspire fear or courage in the hearts of the warriors. In some cases, she is written to have appeared in visions to those who are destined to die in battle as washing their bloody armor. In this specific role, she is also given the role of foretelling imminent death with a particular emphasis on the individual. There are also a few rare accounts where she would join in the battle itself as a warrior and show her favoritism in a more direct manner. The Norns The Norns are female beings who rule the destiny of gods and men in Norse Mythology. The Völuspá, Prophecy of the Völva (Seeress), is the first and best known poem of the Poetic Edda. It tells the story of the creation of the world and its coming end. Urðr (Wyrd), Verðandi and Skuld, the three most important of the Norns, come out from a hall standing at the Well of Urðr or Well of Fate. They draw water from the well and take sand that lies around it, which they pour over the Yggdrasill tree so that its branches will not rot. These three Norns are described as powerful maiden giantesses (Jotuns) whose arrival from Jötunheimr ended the golden age of the gods. Beside these three famous Norns, there are many others who appear at a person's birth in order to determine his or her future. In the pre-Christian Norse societies, Norns were thought to have visited newborn children. There were both malevolent and benevolent Norns: the former caused all the malevolent and tragic events in the world while the latter were kind and protective goddesses. The Poetic Edda says about them (which I found interesting in this context): Fafnir spake: "Of many births the Norns must be, Nor one in race they were; Some to gods, others to elves are kin, And Dvalin's daughters some." The three wise women of Westeros do not appear to be sisters at all, but rather “of many births”, and one is literally a dwarf (Dvalin’s daughter). I would contend that the following three wise old woman of Westeros can be loosely equated to the various aspects of the these mythological trinities: Old Nan: “She was a very ugly old woman, Bran thought spitefully; shrunken and wrinkled, almost blind, too weak to climb stairs, with only a few wisps of white hair left to cover a mottled pink scalp. No one really knew how old she was, but his father said she'd been called Old Nan even when he was a boy. She was the oldest person in Winterfell for certain, maybe the oldest person in the Seven Kingdoms. Nan had come to the castle as a wet nurse for a Brandon Stark whose mother had died birthing him.” -Game of Thrones, Bran IV Pemphredo – alarm – she who guides the way – the well clad or robed in beauty The Grey Ones are ancient, although they may have once been “fair cheeked” or beautiful. I suspect Old Nan was once a great beauty and also is the three eyed crow from Bran’s dreams who attempted to show Bran the way. Nan is toothless, like a bird, and her eye/hair color is never given, she has a ‘third eye’ in her needle (click click click and the three eyed raven spoke in a voice as sharp as swords, like a needle), she smells dragons when discussing the comet, and Bran gets no more “Princes” from her than he ever had. Clotho – The Past – The Spinner – The Ninth - Nona Old Nan is incredibly old, tells stories of the past, is always sowing (click click click), and originally came to Winterfell to care for a newborn Brandon Stark (the ninth is a reference to the nine months of maternity leading to childbirth). Badb – Crow – prophesized the worlds end – “bean-sidhe” (a female spirit in Irish mythology who heralds the death of a family member, usually by wailing, shrieking, or keening.) "I dreamed about the crow again last night. The one with three eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad." – Game of Thrones, Bran VII Obviously, this is all tied to my belief that Old Nan is the Three Eyed Crow, who is a messenger of death, and warns of the worlds end, “and now you know why you must live”. Urdr – fate – Past – Urd’s well is the “well of fate” "You be quiet, stupid," the girl said, tossing her own branch aside. "It's just water. Do you want Old Nan to hear and run tell Father?" She knelt and pulled her brother from the pool, but before she got him out again, the two of them were gone. … After that the glimpses came faster and faster, till Bran was feeling lost and dizzy. He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her. Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor. A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows. The tree itself was shrinking, growing smaller with each vision, whilst the lesser trees dwindled into saplings and vanished, only to be replaced by other trees that would dwindle and vanish in their turn. And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them. -Dance with Dragons, Bran III Nan is not only a fixture of Winterfell, with its heart tree above the still cold pool, but she is always telling stories of the past, and I would suggest she is even featured in a vision of the past through the tree of Winterfell including the pool. Ghost of High Heart: Beside the embers of their campfire, she saw Tom, Lem, and Greenbeard talking to a tiny little woman, a foot shorter than Arya and older than Old Nan, all stooped and wrinkled and leaning on a gnarled black cane. Her white hair was so long it came almost to the ground. When the wind gusted it blew about her head in a fine cloud. Her flesh was whiter, the color of milk, and it seemed to Arya that her eyes were red, though it was hard to tell from the bushes. "The old gods stir and will not let me sleep," … "I dreamt a wolf howling in the rain, but no one heard his grief," the dwarf woman was saying. "I dreamt such a clangor I thought my head might burst, drums and horns and pipes and screams, but the saddest sound was the little bells. I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow." She turned her head sharply and smiled through the gloom, right at Arya. "You cannot hide from me, child. Come closer, now." – Storm of Swords, Arya VIII Deino – Dread – the terrible It should be noted that not only is the Ghost of High heart giving dread prophesies here, but a maid with serpents in her hair sounds a lot like a medusa, whom the grey ones pointed Perseus to in legend. Lachesis – The present - The allotter – Measurer with her rod – Garbed in white - The Tenth – Decima She has her gnarled black cane, and is pale as milk, which match with the measurer and garbed in white. Decima/Lachesis was in charge of determining the length of mortals’ lives, and along with Nona attended childbirths. The tragedy at Summerhall, to which the Ghost of High Heart refers when speaking to Arya, was the time and place of Rhaegar’s birth. She also predicted the promised prince would be of the line of Aerys and Rhaella. Macha – sovereignty goddess - the land, fertility, kingship, war and horses – of the plain - "the mast of Macha" High Heart itself is situated as the lone highpoint amidst a flat plain, giving clear line of sight all around. It was a sacred place to the Children of the Forest. “The Mast of Macha” refers to the heads of men that have been slaughtered, stacked after a battle, and likely derives from a legend of a mother earth like goddess (Macha) who cared for men (a king) but was horribly mistreated (forced to race horses while pregnant despite pleading for reprieve) and so cursed men and became a war goddess. The masts, berries or nuts of the forest, which fed pigs (fruits of the land) being replaced with the heads of the slaughtered (fruits of battle). High heart is also the location of a battle, and subsequent slaughter, then the chopping down of its 31 Weirwoods, resulting in a pile of corpses, or the mast of macha. The great hill called High Heart was especially holy to the First Men, as it had been to the children of the forest before them. Crowned by a grove of giant weirwoods, ancient as any that had been seen in the Seven Kingdoms, High Heart was still the abode of the children and their greenseers. When the Andal king Erreg the Kinslayer surrounded the hill, the children emerged to defend it, calling down clouds of ravens and armies of wolves...or so the legend tells us. Yet neither tooth nor talon was a match for the steel axes of the Andals, who slaughtered the greenseers, the beasts, and the First Men alike, and raised beside the High Heart a hill of corpses half again as high...or so the singers would have us believe. - The World of Ice and Fire, The Riverlands Verdandi – happening/becoming – present It should be noted that the Norns were of many births, one of which was a child of Dvalin (aka a dwarf!) just like the ghost of high heart. Verdandi is commonly translated as from the root verda, “in the making”. The prophesies of the Ghost of High Heart are all about events which are in the making, as opposed to Nan’s stories of the past or Maggy’s foretelling deaths themselves. Maggie the Frog: The inside of the tent was full of smells. Cinnamon and nutmeg. Pepper, red and white and black. Almond milk and onions. Cloves and lemongrass and precious saffron, and stranger spices, rarer still. The only light came from an iron brazier shaped like a basilisk's head, a dim green light that made the walls of the tent look cold and dead and rotten. Had it been that way in life as well? Cersei could not seem to remember. … The sorceress was sleeping in the dream, as once she'd slept in life. Leave her be, the queen wanted to cry out. You little fools, never wake a sleeping sorceress. Without a tongue, she could only watch as the girl threw off her cloak, kicked the witch's bed, and said, "Wake up, we want our futures told." – A Feast for Crows, Cersei VIII Enyo – horror – robed in saffron The Westerlings always did have more honor than sense. Lady Sybell's grandfather was a trader in saffron and pepper, almost as lowborn as that smuggler Stannis keeps. And the grandmother was some woman he'd brought back from the east. A frightening old crone, supposed to be a priestess. Maegi, they called her. No one could pronounce her real name. Half of Lannisport used to go to her for cures and love potions and the like." He shrugged. "She's long dead, to be sure. And Jeyne seemed a sweet child, I'll grant you, though I only saw her once. But with such doubtful blood . . ." -Storm of Swords, Tyrion III Not only does the tent of Maggy the Frog smell of saffron and spices, but her descendent goes on to found house Spicer. Her eyes are yellow as the eyes of death, and she instills horror in others. Atropos – The Future – Inevitability – Cutter of threads - The Dead One – Morta "Some are here who have no futures," Maggy muttered in her terrible deep voice. She pulled her robe about her shoulders and beckoned the girls closer. "Come, if you will not go. Fools. Come, yes. I must taste your blood." … Melara paled, but not Cersei. A lioness does not fear a frog, no matter how old and ugly she might be. She should have gone, she should have listened, she should have run away. Instead she took the dagger Maggy offered her, and ran the twisted iron blade across the ball of her thumb. Then she did Melara too. - A Feast for Crows, Cersei VIII In order to tell Cersei and the other girls how they will die, they must be cut and let her taste a drop of blood. Morta is responsible for the pain and/or death that occur in a half-wake, half-sleep time frame, and we get this vision through Cersei half remembering and half dreaming. Nemain – seize/take/deal out (possibly related to the Greek, “Nemesis”) - frenzied havoc of war - bean nighe or “washerwoman”, an omen of death. In the grand Irish epic of the Tain Bo Cuailnge, Neman confounds armies, so that friendly bands fall in mutual slaughter. Maggy causes/predicts that Cersei will kill her friend, pushing her down a well. And Maggy’s decedents cause the Red Wedding. Maggy also presents Cersei with “the Valonquar”, her nemesis, who is destined to destroy her. The old woman's eyes were yellow, and crusted all about with something vile. In Lannisport it was said that she had been young and beautiful when her husband had brought her back from the east with a load of spices, but age and evil had left their marks on her. She was short, squat, and warty, with pebbly greenish jowls. Her teeth were gone and her dugs hung down to her knees. You could smell sickness on her if you stood too close, and when she spoke her breath was strange and strong and foul. - A Feast for Crows, Cersei VIII Not only does she have no teeth, but some distinguishing characteristic of a bean nighe are being short and squat, small and green, and described as having unusually long breasts, or dugs. If caught they will reveal a man’s fate, or grant wishes... depending on the tale. Skuld – debt – future – a Valkyrie Skuld is the youngest of the Norns, as Maggy is the youngest of these three wise women of Westeros. She is both a Norn and a Valkyrie, not only “the one who cuts” or determines lives’ ends, but also marks significant changes, such as marriages and births… both of which are major parts of Maggy’s predictions to Cersei and company. Maggy’s decedents also bring about the Red Wedding, or a feast of the dead, which is what a Valkarie selected soldiers on the battlefield for, to feast in Odin’s Halls. Jeyne Westerling cared for Rob who was injured on the battlefield, before delivering him to the Red Wedding.
  13. Love your posts... just wanted to point out a detail which has always nagged at me. Before his meeting with Saan, Davos meets an old friend on the quay: A faceless gargoyle!
  14. Ok, I can't help myself... All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king. ... Gemstones glittered on every finger, and his man had oiled his forked yellow beard until it shone like real gold. Yet now that the last day was at hand, suddenly Bran felt lost. Winterfell had been the only home he had ever known. His father had told him that he ought to say his farewells today, and he had tried. After the hunt had ridden out, he wandered through the castle with his wolf at his side, intending to visit the ones who would be left behind The old man laid a withered, spotted hand on his shoulder. "It hurts, boy," he said softly. "Oh, yes. Choosing … it has always hurt. And always will. I know." Below, the world had turned to ice. Fingers of frost crept slowly up the weirwood, reaching out for each other When the fire died at last and the ground became cool enough to walk upon, Ser Jorah Mormont found her amidst the ashes, surrounded by blackened logs and bits of glowing ember and the burnt bones of man and woman and stallion. She was naked, covered with soot, her clothes turned to ash, her beautiful hair all crisped away … yet she was unhurt. Huge stones had been set into the curving walls as steps, circling down and down, dark as the steps to hell that Old Nan used to tell them of. And something was coming up out of the darkness, out of the bowels of the earth … Arya peered over the edge and felt the cold black breath on her face. Far below, she saw the light of a single torch, small as the flame of a candle. Two men, she made out. Their shadows writhed against the sides of the well, tall as giants From there Aegon the Dragon ruled his realm, holding court from a great metal seat made from the melted, twisted, beaten, and broken blades of all his fallen foes, a perilous seat that would soon be known through all the world as the Iron Throne of Westeros. He had no crown nor scepter, no robes of silk and velvet, but it was plain to Jon that Mance Rayder was a king in more than name.
  15. One the one hand I think that comparisons between ASOIAF and LOTR can only be taken so far, on the other I think it is very fun! I've always been intrigued by this line of Durin's song... The world was young, the mountains green No stain yet on the Moon was seen No words were laid on stream or stone When Durin woke and walked alone He named the nameless hills and dells He drank from yet untasted wells He stooped and looked in Mirrormere And saw a crown of stars appear As gems upon a silver thread Above the shadow of his head The world was fair, the mountains tall In Elder Days before the fall Of mighty Kings in Nargothrond And Gondolin, who now beyond The Western Seas have passed away The world was fair in Durin's Day A king he was on carven throne In many-pillared halls of stone With golden roof and silver floor And runes of power upon the door The light of sun and star and moon In shining lamps of crystal hewn Undimmed by cloud or shade of night There shown forever far and bright There hammer on the anvil smote There chisel clove, and graver wrote There forged was bladed and bound was hilt The delver mined the mason built There beryl, pearl, and opal pale And metel wrought like fishes' mail Buckler and corslet, axe and sword And shining spears were laid in horde Unwearied then were Durin's folk Beneath the mountains music woke The harpers harped, the minstrels sang And at the gates the trumpets rang The world is grey, the mountains old The forge's fire is ashen-cold No harp is wrung, no hammer falls The darkness dwells in Durin's halls The shadow lies upon his tomb In Moria, in Khazad-dûm But still the sunken stars appear In dark and windless Mirrormere There lies his crown in water deep 'Till Durin wakes again from sleep The cold pool in the Winterfell Godswood always reminded me of Mirrormere. The Stars in a daylight sky remind me of Dany's wake the dragon dream also. Anyway, fun read!
  16. "We're all just songs in the end. If we are lucky."
  17. Sorry for the length of the quote, but here Jon get's a little bitter truth from Tyrion, and more to the point of this thread, we see Jon do exactly what Tyrion suggests at the start, staring into a fire dreaming of dragons. Jon's uncle Benjen has no banners to call, but uncle Ned does. Fun note, if Tyrion is a dragon, then his father was in fact killed by a dragon's (crossbow) fire. Obviously, Dany has many dreams of dragons, and, as Aemon tells us, so do other Targaryens. And this is confirmed in Dunk and Egg:
  18. I love the cat quote: Not only is the black bastard the real king of the castle, but the other cats in this paragraph match up to well with the other Stark children to be a coincidence, in my opinion. Cat dozing in the sun (Bran/Summer), cold eyed mouser (Robb/Greywind), quick little kitten with needle (Arya/Nymeria), lady cat (Sansa/Lady), and the ragged shadow (Rickon/Shaggy Dog). I would also point out that the eating of a bird from the table is something we see from Ghost in Jon's first chapter. Here we see Jon drunk on the sweet cup of lies, not to be confused with the bitter cup of truth, the cup of fire and cup of ice. But, I digress. Ghost is the silent wolf. It is easy to mistake this for a vision in the House of the Undying as being of the Red Wedding, and Robb's death, but I sincerely doubt it. First, there is no reason Dany would see a vision of Robb, nor any reason for Robb to appeal to Dany. Far more convincingly, in my opinion, is that the wolf headed king looks to her with "mute" appeal. Not only is Ghost he silent wolf, but the phrase "mute appeal" shows up at two other interesting places in the text. Here we see Ned Stark's look of "mute appeal" when discussing Jon. And the third and final time "mute appeal" is used in the series so far, you guessed it, the Red Wedding itself, but not by Robb, by Aegon, Jinglebell: Robb doesn't look with mute appeal, Aegon does. And, as the ghost of high heart said, the saddest sound was the little bells. King Robb is killed, and I think it's worth noting that Aegon dies like Aerys did, from a slashed throat while shitting himself, not like Robb. Jon is, in all probability, Aery's grandson. Finally, back to the original quote, Robb's crown is iron and bronze not just iron. The scepter of lamb, I believe is actually a reference to Jon's time as a "wolf in sheep's clothing" among the wildlings and it represents his authority over the wildlings he has ushered into the realm. Oddly, "Scepter" is also only used three times in the series so far. Once in the House of the Undying vision and the two quotes below: What Patchface saw was death. He's another fool, like Aegon, Jinglebells from the Red Wedding. Jon too, I believe, will become king in more than just name.
  19. The quote is literally about an honorable foe, not just anyone. I would argue that Mance got very unlucky with Stannis's arrival, but that is sort of besides the point. It's pretty clear what Jon thought of the order to assassinate Mance. Mercy begets mercy and bloodshed more bloodshed, it may be a risk, but you have to be what you want to see in the world.
  20. I would argue that doing the right thing isn't less right because someone else takes it as an opportunity to do something wrong.
  21. This is, I believe, a very important question! And unlike others here, I do not think this is a case of grey area or middle ground, however it is important to note the details here. This issue also appears in the main ASoIaF series. It should be noted that Bloodraven himself was given clemency and allowed to take the black instead of being executed for breaking his promise of safe passage and kinslaying. When in doubt with this series I think it is worth taking a look at what Ned would do. It is also important to distinguish between what is the "right" thing to do and what thing is the most efficient or beneficial for ones self. These are not the same, and the contrast between those trying to do what is "right" and those Machiavellian "ends justify the means" types is highlighted throughout the series. But in this case there may even be overlap. It is important to remember why one is fighting. Winning is not enough, how you win matters. This is not to suggest everyone gets a pardon for everything. It is how one should treat a defeated foe (not to be construed with punishing crimes). Even the author of the notorious demise of house Tarbeck and Reyne sees the wisdom of mercy for a defeated foe. And while his logic is the pragmatic kind and not about morality, it still serves to underscore the point. While much negative can be said of Robert as a King, and his hatred of Targaryens clearly blinded him, one of his better qualities was mercy and inspiring friendship in a defeated foe. Those who would make friends of enemies and peace out of war must take the first step. Mercy and forgiveness are positive qualities, especially for those in power, and especially when treating with a defeated foe. Stannis admits this does not come naturally to him, and yet we see in Davos another possible example and maybe his most loyal man. Another fantastic example of this is Jon and Mance. Mance spares Jon, and one could argue that this action more than anything caused Mance's invasion to fail. And yet, come the end of the day, this action also likely saved not only Mance himself, but the Wildlings at large. This could obviously be a much longer rant, but I'll end here and say that I think it is a fantastic topic!
  22. I'm not sure I appreciate the distinction here. Why is it more ok to take hostages after a war than during a war? It would seem to me that threatening the life of an innocent person is wrong regardless. I'm inclined to agree with Theon here. I think the real question is would Ned have killed Theon if Balon rebelled while Theon was still a child?
  23. I think Ned answers your question himself: If Eddard were responsible for a child who's hair/eye color gave away a parentage that would incur Robert's wrath, he would send the child into exile. Given that Robert wouldn't know about a Targaryen looking child at the Tower of Joy, like he would Cersei's children if Ned told him, it's unclear to me if Ned would go with the child and/or take his whole family as he suggests here. So while this isn't exactly the same, it is a remarkably similar situation (something I do not think is a coincidence!).
  24. I would agree that it isn't clear who is doing the murdering yet. Also, I think it is worth pointing out that Mance likely knows "Arya" isn't Arya.
  25. I'm no expert on fluid dynamics but I think this would be something like an artesian well.
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