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Mad King Bolton

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  1. Just had a thought jump in my poor excuse for a brain and I haven't looked into plausibility at all, so apologies if this has been looked at before, but is there any matching up of information that could suggest Marwyn and Quaith are one and the same?  All we get from Quaith are projections and who's to say that Marwyn isn't altering his appearance while projecting his communication with Dany through a glass candle.  He seems fully aware of what is going on with Dany, has a direct connection to Mazz who may have used opportunity and sacrifice to set Dany moving on her journey.  

    I'm curious if this has been explored or if it's an easy cut-off (I know many want this to be Sheirra or someone else).  


  2. On 11/13/2021 at 8:31 PM, Daenerysthegreat said:

    In the last theon chapter(which I re read just now), mance and the spear wives plan to escape with arya partially succeeded. They were caught trying to sneak her out but it's still unknown if the northmen knew it was them.

    The only immediate fate I can be sure of is of Holly, she fell into the snow covered moat. Now if theon and arya can survive the fall so can Holly.

    Frenya I'm not sure about. She had the rope. 

    What does everyone think about this? 

    I just finished this chapter in my reread this morning so fresh in my mind, was just thinking to post something to do it’s been great to read people’s minds on it. 
    I believe Holly just fell down where she was standing as it says she fell “reaching for the nearest merlon” and the snow fell on top of her and soon turned red. If she fell off the wall they wouldn’t be able to see it and she’d have been buried farther down.  Beside the point though. Holly is for sure dead since she is bloody, buried, and not trying to get up. 
    frenya is heard fighting half a dozen guards and if she’s lucky she was killed, otherwise she’d be caught and put to the question. Squirrel is the most likely to have escaped but the room’s windows were barred and frozen shut and two guards out the door with more downstairs. Maybe they knew she was likely to be caught from the start and just hoped…

    the other 3 went to see Mance who was playing for Roose directly when they left. Even if the 3 wives found him, he can’t excuse himself from the main hall while Roose is entertaining, they’d all be in the hall when the crap hit the fan and while they might not have been nabbed immediately, it would not take long at all for a lockdown and frenya to be identified as one of the women, nor Holly since she didn’t go over the wall (pretty sure), not Theon to be reported with F’arya. So Abel and the ladies would very quickly be caught. 
    even if they learned of the crypts location from Theon, they don’t know any way out, so again, i had more hope before this reread for them, but doesn’t look good. Even Mance would be talking after enough time with the Boltons. I don’t care how honourable, tough, or badass, flaying is flaying.

    if anyone did anything to stop it, fight back, help, etc we won’t know until winds, but not George’s style to make an unintelligent scenario for escape like the show (ex. Jaime falling into a lake and next scene a mile away and safe).

    bowen penning the pink letter isn’t even good enough for a joke. He doesn’t know anything. He can’t give half of the details even if he wanted to. Only a couple people know all of the details given in the pink letter and Ramsay COULD be one, but circumstantial evidences doesn’t seem to match up with it being him, but I have a bad feeling ol Mance is caught and while he serves a purpose to keep alive, none of the spear wives do, nor do they know enough to be worth keeping alive for long. 

  3. I enjoy her insight and perspective on things. Considering her view of Stannis and his physical deterioration, it’s surprising most of us who wrote on his threads are so bullish on his chances. His grip on his men is fierce and they’re loyal due to his strength and their own cost of buying into his cause, but they’re falling apart and suffering so badly, it’s a wonder there’s any hope at all despite strategy. Ashas read on Stannis’ forces is great. Individuals like the northern clans men and southron lords alike.

    as for how Asha will make out, it’s hard to say. If Stannis wins, her story continues and she may find herself leading the white harbour fleet (I didn’t even consider it until writing this), maybe for Stannis or maybe for a Stark? Dunno. I can see her facing off on the sea against any one of the various seaborne forces including Euron, Victarion, redwyn, waters, pirates, etc. 

    im thinking now this is the way

  4. On 10/27/2021 at 10:10 AM, TsarGrey said:

    He did. AGoT Tyrion III.

    The Lord Commander took no notice of the irritating bird. "Gared was near as old as I am and longer on the Wall," he went on, "yet it would seem he forswore himself and fled. I should never have believed it, not of him, but Lord Eddard sent me his head from Winterfell. Of Royce, there is no word. One deserter and two men lost, and now Ben Stark too has gone missing."

    Nice find.  I believe it’s a continuity error from Martin’s first book in the series much earlier in a distinguished career. He had no idea this would grow like it did. That being said, I do realize the point of these forums and the fun of it is to discuss in the spirit that what is written had a purpose and was completely and omnipotently created.


    so I’m that being, I do not believe anyone could approach the gate and be let through in castle black whether it’s by a buddy doing a solid or otherwise as the horn blows before you can see who is at the gate. And Gared would have been in jo state of mind to be strategizing his desertion, was in a panic. So, it must have been through a different route or method.

    that’s my opinion on it of course, wouldn’t be the first time I was wrong with it. Would be interesting to hear Martin’s take of course.

  5. Well Skaggs has been 100% rumour and innuendo, so I won’t be surprised if there aren’t unicorns (or if there are), if the Skagosi aren’t cannibals (or if they are), or nearly anything else. We really don’t know much about it. I think Osha must have had an understanding of it if that’s where they planned to go (assuming Wex is correct). So I’m guessing it’s not what we’ve been led to believe it is like and that Rickon would not only be safe there, but would have support or comfort as well. 
    I expect to see Skagosi reintroduced to the realm and have a savage force of badass wildling style fighters interested in carving out a piece of mainland North for helping the remaining prince of the North recapture the kingdom.  Meeting with Davos would be timely as he’ll have ships to ferry a force to a strategic location, maybe meet up with Glover, and join the fray…not Frey.

  6. On 10/24/2021 at 8:37 PM, Lord Lannister said:

    Could be as simple as him getting back to Castle Black at night and being told to make his report to the Lord Commander in the morning. Then he just keeps going south.

    The NW is not so vast in numbers and disorganization that a brother of 40 years out on a ranging and returning alone at night would be unreported. Even at night I’m sure horns blow foe returning rangers. And even if by chance it happened that way, Gared would come up in gossip or chatting around some hot breakfast the next morning or some other meal or chat eventually. He couldn’t stay a mystery.

    ”damn Royce, Gared, and Will ain’t come back yet”. 
    “You mean Royce and Will.  Gared came back 3 months ago, he’s been catching up on his whoring I’m Moles town is all”.

  7. 20 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

    I agree, that would explain why Ned knew about his desertion and captured him.

    I’m sure Gared was spotted moving in his NW garb away from the wall in obvious abandonment (don’t think he was even trying hard at that point), or even if I’m civies, he would still stand out as a stranger and be reported by the time he was near Winterfell.


    as pointed out above though, Mormont hadn’t seen Gared again, so at least rules out return to castle black before desertion.

  8. 3 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

    This is my interpretation of events. It's the most logical, and would be the easiest for Gared to pull off. Castle Black isn't a prison - you can practically leave whenever you want. 

    I’m trying to think if Mormont told anyone about Royce being missing or reported killed. If Gared did come back to CB, he’d have to have said one way or the other but I think there’s he discussion about it or mention in a Jon chapter even after the fact. That being said, you need climbing spikes, and or rope to climb the wall, not something you can just decide to do because you’re scared. And the scale of the wall makes it pretty ridiculous that a guy running from the Others would take a couple weeks to find a way around it like eastwatch or shadow tower. Also the idea of night fort seems far fetched. Seems like the gate there was quite mysterious. Maybe though. Of all the possibilities aside from it just being a detail the writer wouldn’t think would be so deeply questioned 20+ years later, the night fort might be the most likely.

  9. I’d like to see Stannis face off with the Others. Do well and have a confrontation where “lightbringer” shatters along with his expectations. Maybe too much in common with Royce in GoT prologue from a visual moment, but the main idea feels fitting. False hero revealed and opening the door for the other characters to reconsider who Azor Ahai really could be.

  10. 5 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:


    but this depends of what is happening within the Wall of Winterfell.

    He's certainly a wild card as well as Bran & Bloodraven are, who plainly intend to intervene in some way in the battle. 

    There are other elements as well. The ironborn at Torrhen's Square and some suggestions that there might be another army in the snow, led by Robett Glover. I personally believe these suggestions are overblown, but they aren't crazy either.

    Hmmm I always love information I didn’t notice or hear much comment on before, could you find anything on the bran/blood raven intervention possibility and/or Robett Glover in the field? Interesting.

  11. 3 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

    Oh that's sad because we're on opposite sides then

    In case anyone doesn't know I'm a targaryen supporter. 

    We don’t have to be on opposite sides. I don’t believe Stannis is going to survive the story not make it as far as a confrontation with Dany or f’Aegon anyway. I like him and his story and I also enjoy the Targaryens. All good.


  12. 5 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

    I just don't see the overarching story point of Ramsay beating Stannis. At this point we're up to the second last book in the series; the Boltons have been winning since the end of the second book. They've had their brief moment of glory, such as it is. They've served their story purpose well - destroying the Starks and fracturing the North - now it's time for their little story-arc to be concluded so the series can move on to greater things. Even Stannis acknowledges that the Boltons are just a sideshow to the real threat - the Others. If the Boltons win yet again, someone else is just going to have to come along fairly soon to defeat them. I simply can't see the Boltons playing a part in the final act of the series, i.e. the Long Night and/or Dany's invasion. They're a very "second act" type of villain, you know what I mean? They just give our heroes something to deal with between the big threats of act 1 (Lannisters) and act 3 (Others/Dany). 

    I understand that all of my reasoning is purely meta, so take it with a grain of salt if you want. But Martin has said repeatedly that he's going to start culling superfluous characters and storylines as soon as Winds starts, and I think the Boltons will be high on that list.

    I completely agree with you and hear you. I just had a feeling of dread in Theon’s chapter as his inner thoughts were that Stannis shouldn’t take Ramsay lightly and all his thoughts were dismissive of him. Not a good place to be in at this point and that so often bites good characters in the ass and shouldn’t be ignored in the text.

    id love nothing more than to move on from the Bolton’s as you said, I just have a feeling there’s more to happen. When Stannis eventually falls I always hoped it was to the Others in disbelief that lightbringer and his prophecy were bs.

  13. sorry folks, I posted this earlier in the wrong forum, reposting here and will go back and delete the other.

    Let me start off by saying I’m a Stannis supporter and hopeful he pulls through. I’ve read about various theories and some I love (the night lantern theory), some very interesting (stannis as future night king), and others I’m not so keen on. I may also be sadly influenced by the show result, but I believe there’s enough evidence on the written page to support the idea that Stannis will fail in the battle for Winterfell at some point though again, I’m hopeful he prevails.

    though it’s in the Theon chapter of winds which for all we know will be revised and changed whenever we get the authentic one in hand, but as stannis roots out deception and betrayal in true OG style, Theon notes that he is underestimating Ramsay and Stannis seems just too dismissive of Ramsay’s threat, 

    It seems to me that Stannis’ preparations will lead to defeat of the incoming Freys, likely salvaging the baggage train, hopefully coming to understanding snd uniting with the Manderly force, and more. However, in all of this, Ramsay seems to be someone written off. What will he do? He’s no match for Stannis openly, we see Ramsay’s impulsiveness and arrogance when he wants to attack Stannis outright before the Bolton’s and train head to Winterfell to marry F’Arya, but Roose scolds him and at the time of the end of Dance, Ramsay is in a different position. 
    does anyone else feel this is a mistake by Stannis and he’s overlooking this threat and will pay for it, or there any indication he’s going to be ready not just for the Frey assault, but Ramsay’s likely ambush or deceptive strike? Where will it happen? What forces would he have to use?

  14. It would be hard to recognize Gregor without a head too. It would seem he’s got someone else’s head on under his helm since his real one was sent to Dorn. Unless they found a match in size to send instead. Maybe an undersized skull under his helm. Is it written what happened to Robert Baratheon’s body after he died? I doubt they’d preserve it, but Cersei gets her freak on in more than one weird way. I’m sure she’d enjoy desecrating Roberts memory in such a twisted way. 

  15. On 9/29/2021 at 2:42 AM, Frey family reunion said:

    I’ve held that assumption for a while, that they may have switched allegiances.  The problem is it goes contrary to this line from the White Bull in Eddard’s fever dream:

    Clearly the implication is that if they had been in King’s Landing, Aerys would still be king.  Not Rhaegar.  

    So I don’t think they switched allegiances.  So I keep going back to the burning question.  Where does Rhaegar and his obsession with the prince that was promised and Summerhall align with the megalomaniacal Aerys who dreamed of being reborn as a dragon? Hint.  Hint.

    I have been really interested in this scenario for a long time. I believe that the kings guard were not aligned here. I believe Hightower and (was it Whent) were there from Aerys to ensure that rhaegar went to the trident (though I suppose Whent makes sense to be loyal with rhaegar over Aerys since things started at Harrenhal). Regardless, Arthur was there to ensure no harm came to Lyanna in case Aerys left a contingency plan (since he was a big of a cagey fellow). I’m fascinated to get the eventual details of how it all went down.

    that’s my theory anyway, and would love to talk about it more. Or have it torn apart. All good.


    just to address Aerys wanting to be reborn a dragon and rhaegar’s lamentations of summer hall I don’t think they’re aligned. Aerys and Rhaegar were incredibly misaligned to the point of incoming civil war. 

  16. Since it's widely agreed upon and the one stain on his honour is supposedly his bastard son, the reputation is not only before Jon, but in all actions since.  We can't forget that Lady Catelyn was probably the most wounded by Jon's existence, so if she sees Ned as honourable and such a great man, then it has to be from after the rebellion.

  17. It's a complicated question because several of them overlap.  Lastly I'd say Joffrey because he's shit in charge, wasn't groomed to rule, doesn't listen to advisors, and wouldn't uphold he law past his enjoyment as a sadist.  I doubt he'd rule particularly wrong.  Also he's a bastard who shouldn't be an option.  4th would be Really.  Really is a likeable guy, loved by the people.  He'd make an excellent lord if he stayed in his lane.  As king he might not have been bad either as he was open handed, smart with good advisors though he seemed to make his own decisions as a ruler should.  He was soft, but seemed to be hard when he had to be as was evident in his preparation for battle with Stannis.  He had no claim though as the youngest son.  If Stannis willingly abdicated then fine, but he didn't.  3rd was Balon. He made a land grab against another kingdom.  not the reaving of his culture, but a full on assault.  I understand and respect his right to sovereignty when those you bent the knee to were gone.  However, trying to take over another kingdom makes me lose all respect for him.  Fair, the Iron Islands are shit and he wanted some mainland to expand the kingdom, but he didn't even attempt to take back land the I.I. lost during the conquest like Harrenhal.  So fuck him.  2nd was Robb.  Make the North independent sure.  Got no problem with that for the same reason Balon can regain sovereignty.  I wish Robb stayed north of the neck once Ned was gone and his rebellion was mostly pushed by his popularity with his men and their support of him.  He was pretty much pushed into it.  His Tully blood is more what got him killed in the end since the Riverlands is a losing position to hold.  If he stayed in the North to be King in the North then he'd have probably been fine.  I doubt the rest of the kingdom would muster to go win back the North at the beginning of winter.  

    My top choice for support is Stannis.  Rightful king by the laws the land followed.  He just couldn't prove it universally.  Stannis is not a tyrant.  He doesn't follow his own law and make things up as he goes and destroy or take what he wants.  He follows an established law with established consequences.  He could be more lenient, he could be gentler, but this is his character.  He's got plenty of faults and plenty of virtues and he would have been a strong king.  Unloved but strong and the land would have likely prospered as a result.  He'd be a tough act to follow though and whomever followed would surely want to be more loved and have weakness like Aegon's son, or he'd overcompensate and try to be like Stannis and be more of a Maegor.  That's how I see it.

  18. I don't think Rhaegar was mad in the slightest.  I think he was one of the most thoughtful and so his actions were not foolish, but necessary in his mind.  Just because he lost to Robert doesn't mean he was wrong and the prophecy as he understood it hasn't happened exactly as it should have. In this particular world, it's not like reading it on Facebook, it's a world where magic is real and so he took action on what he believed was real and as far as the story seems to go, was correct.  If Rhaegar read a prophecy that said you need to have 3 children to save the world from ice zombies, not because the first two will have any role to play at all, but because your third child will be the one to either save it or help save it, then you make sure you have the third child. If it's through getting it on with a child of ice (a Stark) then you bone a Stark.  

    So no, I don't think Rhaegar as anything like the Mad King. He grew up right and played his part in saving the world by doing what he had to do. He's a tragic character that I hope gets further fleshed out in the books to come, but as he is, was one of the good Targaryen's. 

    Let's not forget that good and evil are often perspectives (lessons learned from Jaime and quite a few others).

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