Aejohn the Conqueroo

So, whaddaya think, should we start posting how many of the most hated theories we see in this list are theories that we subscribe to? I'm not listing theories because I don't want to sidetrack, but I count 9 items that people absolutely hope won't happen, that I am rather expecting to happen/ hoping to see happen in Winds and Dream.

Could take 5 minutes, could take 5 years. If the city fell, Cersei was going to have her son killed beside her (wonder who would go first?). Call it what you like. I have troubles seeing where the word 'love' could possibly apply. "We" certainly don't know that. I dispute it and as I've said before I see no evidence of it. As far as I'm concerned her actions express her feelings quite clearly. Her kids are props and mirrors and means to power. Here she is with Jamie with their dead child beside them Hurry," she was whispering now, "quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime." Her hands helped guide him. "Yes," Cersei said as he thrust, "my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you're home now, you're home now, you're home." She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei's heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined. Clearly devastated by her loss.

Nope. Payne was there. The Red keep was Jonestown if it wasn't for Renley's Ghost.

Sillier than dreams or empty words? We have to use something. I tend to judge people more on what they do than what they say. Ok that could be my bad. I'm possibly getting polluted by memories of the abomination where Illyn Payne was on hand to ensure Stannis wouldn't be getting any hostages. I don't remember where Varys was either, so I don't know that they would have had access to those hidden tunnels or not.

No need to apologize. Yes I am, we all are. Yes, I wouldn't be where I am today without the sacrifices my parents made on my behalf. I am not going to list here the sacrifices I've made during my daughter's life on her behalf. She's my daughter and I don't count the cost, but denying that sacrifices were made... who are you, her mom's lawyer? No. This is narcisism. Love engenders strength not fear. This a perfect example of Cersei demonstrating that Joffrey's personhood is secondary to her own. She wanted her things around her when she died. If the whole thing was 'Get Joffrey out of the capital', then at least an argument that she was acting in the interest of his safety could be made. She wanted him back in her death chamber though. He wasn't going to survive the battle if she didn't.

Those are the real doozies.

I don't hate the 'Benjen is Coldhands' theory although I don't subscribe to it. I do hate all of the other Benjen is... theories. I don't hate the 'Aegon was impotent' theory, but I wonder where it goes or what its proponents think the author would accomplish with it. R'llor is a real entity - TGO as well - any of the sundry gods really. if this story is about gods, they should have the POV's Quentyn lives - dude's a chicken wing Drogo is Drogon The Faceless Men did it. Varys is Lollys - OK, I hate it, but I don't... I would get a kick out of hearing Varys mention offhandedly to someone that the day Marcella sailed to Dorne turned out to be the wrong day to pull out the Lollys Stokeworth disguise. Basically any theory that would contraindicate any of my own or any of the ones that I've taken to heart (far more of them than any of my own) pisses me off a little when I read it. I only bring this up to acknowledge that some of my hate for theories has little to do with the actual theory I'm hating, but to do with the theory I'm loving that it can't coexist with. Honestly I really appreciate people's work in theory crafting and wouldn't want to discourage some of our deeper delvers by crapping on their ideas.

What I would recognize would be an actual sacrifice where Cersei put her children before herself. All you've show are words and dreams and an attempt to ruin her son's marriage to save her own political fortunes. Sure, she tells herself that she did it out of love for Tommen, but would even Tommen believe that? If she loved Tommen she would get her disgraced self out of the capital and give him and his council a chance to escape her crippling shadow. That was never in the cards though, instead she coopted a spot in his bodyguard for a zombie to try and fool the Seven. When she could have shown Joffrey she loved him she showed the jealous, possessive emotions controlling her by having him recalled to Maegor's Holdfast so he could be there to die beside her in defeat. Jim Jones loved like that. If she loved Margery she'd be happy to see her safely out of the capital and in the care of a man like Doran Martell. Same ol Cersei jealousy though and she can't see past the idea of something being taken away from her. She didn't suggest alternatives, or a 'safer' compromise, she just didn't want to lose her little doll.

Can you cite a single passage from any book which demonstrates this? Something other than Cersei saying 'I love my children", please. I can't call any evidence to mind of Cersei's love for anyone but Cersei. As far as I can tell, her kids are just props and mirrors and means to power to her.

Balon's army is useless off their boats, but somehow they defeat Stannis' men before succumbing to Tywin's Jon gets duped trying to make peace with Tywin Renley does the same thing right after Jon does. Mance's 20000 are 300 warriors and 19700 refugees and quickly dispatched Robb meets a girl along the way Tywin, after manipulating all of his other enemies into either fighting amoung themselves or getting isolated enough that he can handle them himself finally has to go up against Stannis who eventually defeats him because his forces are fresh because he pretended to lose to the Iron Born and route, but in fact hid up at the wall and have returned in force now that there's only one rival left standing.

Hm, well we don't have much Cleggane family history... maybe it was a daughter... No, I don't think Dunk went back to visit Rohanne. I like your idea of a Summerhall connection and consequent family taboo. I think for one reason or another some sort of contrived silence was in play because otherwise Brienne would know all about it.

You have a better handle on the family tree than I do, but I wasn't supposing it would have been one of Egg's sisters because that would just be too messy for reasons you suggest. If they would be the only available candidates, then yeah, that wouldn't work. It's just the manner of the shield that Brienne found that makes me think that this was a relation that they didn't want advertised, but weren't necessarily wanting to erase from history either. You don't see Dunk as a ladies man? I'm sure he'll grow into it. Webber was quite taken with him. There's giant spawn in Tarth, giant spawn at Winterfell... We'll see.

naw, it's gotta be a little more salaciously than that, don't you think? I'm guessing that an already pregnant with Dunk's baby Targ was married quickly off to Tarth, but (for reasons which the author will provide) the Tarth's were happy to slip the bastard into their family tree and carry on as though he were a legit Tarth. I just get the feeling that Dunk the Lunk is going to turn out to be quite the ladies' man.

Godric Borrell

I like the idea that that 'Trueborn' sobriquet is Bran announcing himself. I'm just not sure how functional it would be for anyone other than a reader. It doesn't make sense that Ramsay would write it though for the reasons you've already stated.

I hope Vic gets to kill him, but I doubt that will happen. I would be wiling to bet substantial money that the last thing Vic sees as he dies will be Euron's laughing eye. What fate should happen? The Hammurabi in me thinks he should be raped, cucked, dismembered, silenced... thrown off a bridge... Maybe marrying Cersei would be enough though? I suspect that whatever happens, his death will be as problematic and poisonous as his life was. The abomination did a fair job of dividing the two stories in the final season so we got the supernatural battle and then the Iron Throne got sorted out. I suspect that things will be messier in the books. I don't think Euron (or anyone we know for that matter) will be fighting on the side of the Others, rather we'll see a mesh of unreliable allies working with and against each other at the same time. Westeros will one way or another be depending on Euron and someone will get their chance at righteous vengeance and take it at the worst possible time.

No. I would agree though that Cersei is a long way from home and she can't sleep at night.

That's what I suspect. Well, really I think it was probably Maekar, but if it had been BLoodraven under he guise of Rhysling or someone else then it would be because Baelor would have marginalized Rivers.

Good question. Perhaps BR wasn't confident in his ability to manipulate Balor and he saw in Egg someone he could groom? Perhaps he would have lost his standing under Balor and been unable to machinate Egg's accession? Perhaps even the good that Balor would have done would have run contrary to Rivers' agenda?

Yeah, that's what I figured, he doesn't really come up until #2. It's interesting all the same and the fact that it's Egg that introduces and vouches for Rhysling... the idea that he might have been under Bloodraven's influence from the very beginning... The hedge Knight stories are all very sweet and that, but we know how they end. Dunk and Egg are on the long march to Summerhall. Might Bloodraven have made the journey with them? Sometimes I think I ascribe too much potential power or foreknowledge to old man Rivers, but if he did show up there I think he would have been there for Egg and the implication would be that he identified whatever it was in Egg that prompted him to set the wheels in motion that eventually put Egg on the Iron Throne at a very young age. Maybe the Hedge Knight stories are actually scenes from Bloodraven's interventions? Regardless, you've given me an excuse to reread them over the holidays so I appreciate that.

I'm tempted to agree with you and also suspect that an intelligence (the same?) guided Ghost when he showed Jon the Wildling army in the Skirling Pass.

Interesting idea. Do you think Egg would have known who Rhysling really was? The Egg/ Bloodraven relationship is very compelling. Egg almost seems like as he matures to be king he's got Dunk the angel on one shoulder and Bloodraven the devil on the other and though he travels with the angel, he's in the devil's sway. Until of course, he sends Bloodraven to the Wall, but more and more I'm skeptical that the relationship was severed or that BR wasn't even complicit in the order. I guess my next question would be, if Bloodraven secretly took the stage in the Hedge Knight and the Mystery Knight, was he absent from the Sworn Sword, or just as of yet unidentified?

Maybe having dragons as symbols was enough for the Dancers. It was after the dragons had died out that trappings of legitimacy became more and more important. Before they were just family heirlooms and we've seen them handed out within the family as their owner seemed fit. After the dragons died out though other symbols gained more value. Rhaenyra may or may not have seen Blackfyre in its more Freudian light and been averse to wielding it or claiming it as either a woman or just a non martial person. This may also reenforce the idea that it was just a sword to the Targs until they lost their dragons and it gained more value as a symbol. I wonder if Bittersteel ever actually took it to Essos. We don't have any first hand accounts of it being in his possession, just its noted absence during the Mystery Knight.

Really no contest. Vic makes dumb an art form. Who's more lovable, though?

Something stupid. Something stupid. Something even stupider than that. Targaryens are the best!