IFR

It may have said that in the books. From a storytelling standpoint, however, this is clearly the case of the writers demonstrating their pattern of approach to the show: the rule of cool, even if it doesn't make sense upon any kind of consideration. The dumbest warrior the audience has been acquainted with, whose stupid defiance of the Seanchan even the other characters watched in disbelief, turns out to be the exact kind of material needed to be a hero of the Horn, of which we see a dozen or so. I mean, it's fine if people like it. But it's not smart writing. This isn't Succession or Game of Thrones (early seasons obviously; it would fit in perfectly with the final season). This is Fast and the Furious writing. The audience can say "Hey, there's that one guy!" and clap at how cool it is to recognize someone.

I thought it was pretty hilarious. The guy pointlessly blusters like an idiot, predictably gets killed off achieving nothing at all, and then turns out to be one of the very few legendary heroes of the Horn.

I can see a few routes the writers might take regarding Ishamael. 1) He really is dead. This actually is possible. Perhaps the writers feel like Lanfear or Graendal or someone else will make a more compelling villain. Ishamael is not the only one capable of a nihilistic philosophy, and so this can be used on Rand in some other form. 2) Ishamael returns. Who knows how this will be approached. I think if they go this route, it's more likely he'll be resurrected as a woman and channel saidar, going with the gender neutral expression of the soul - that souls are male and female. As for what this means for saidin and saidar and its relation to gendered souls, this is completely nonsensical, but I don't think the writers particularly care. Ishamael could also return in a different manner. Ishamael could end up as part of Rand's madness, too, and the converstions with Ishamael will essentially signify Rand's increasing insanity as he grows closer to the dark side. Ishamael having planted the seed, as it were. 3) It was all an illusion and Ishamael didn't die. Cheesy and cheap, but the writers are capable of this. After all, if Jordan can have fake Ishamael deaths, they can as well.

All right. You win the debate! You called my bluff. You have an endlessly enriched perspective of WoT, your every thought is a diamond in the rough of conversation, and my poor ignorant contributions, a lone hill overshadowed by the looming Everest of your profound insights, only contaminates the luster you bring to this thread. You have an impeccable understanding of my thoughts on the show, whereas I can never hope to even begin to grasp the rarefied realms of your infinite WoT erudition. Well done. I am bested. I hope you'll permit me a little bit of teasing. I really do enjoy your comments, regardless of what you think of mine. But if you wish to end this particular discussion here, then you have my agreement.

Again, assuming that you are being sincere, I would like to point out (respectfully) that this would be considered a derailment of the thread. I am more than happy to engage in this exercise with you. I actually think it would be fun. But carrying this out would be just a sideshow spectacle. I honestly don't see why this can't be done via PM. It's not necessary to have an audience to check how well we've understood each other, unless a spectacle is what you're after. At any rate, if you want to pursue this conversation further, then PM me. I will gladly respond.

Ever since the anime, I've been very curious about this game. I have a window of free time right now and I think I'm going to take the plunge. I look forward to it!

If this is not an insincere response, we can take it to PM if you'd like and we can tell each other what our respective positions are, trying our best to fairly characterize one another's position. It might even be a healthy exercise.

Have you missed the part where I have repeatedly said that it is fine to agree to disagree, or that I've said I'm glad people enjoy the show, or that this entire debate is subjective? I don't recall you extending the same courtesy - quite the opposite, you repeatedly have stated how little you care for my perspective of the show, and you've straight up insinuated that my disagreement is trolling. Your beliefs of this show have exhaustively been expressed, too. I don't dismiss your views and say, we get it, can you quiet down so that I can discuss my more interesting views on the show in this thread that is a discussion on the show? I don't say, hey, you're clearly on the show's payroll for your absurd defenses of all the ridiculous plot points of the show, quit causing me to be exposed to your thoughts. I give you the benefit of the doubt and consider your arguments as those in good faith. Your views, in the thousands and thousands of words you've written on WoT, have been made abundantly clear. But this is a discussion forum, and I welcome you to discuss. I think this is an appropriate attitude to have, regardless of the magnitude of our disagreement.

We disagree on various elements of the show. Our interpretations differ. Generally in a disagreement, to substantiate one's position outside sources are cited. You feel free to insinuate that I was trolling, and repudiate someone who is in fact a co-author of the series as a worthy source. And you're welcome to do that. And I'm going to say that you are being unreasonable here. Well, yeah. I'm one of the few here who hasn't been insulting people, or at minimum suggesting that people are making bad faith arguments. The farthest I've come to that point is the text above, where I suggested you are being unreasonable. You, and others, have repeatedly insinuated that I am making bad faith arguments. I think that is rude. You may not care if you're rude, but all the same, I feel justified defending myself.

It's hard to say what happened to Moiraine. She was blocked, but apparently that severed her bond with Lan, which she renewed. But even though the bond was severed, Lan was pretty much fine? The mechanics of the show are pretty different from the books and don't make a terrible amount of sense. It was reasonable to guess that the show was going a different direction, and that's why Sanderson would have predicted this is what happened. And who knows what was changed in the re-writes of season 2? You say that it is too much of a deviation (a subjective assessment) so you didn't believe the writers would take that approach. But this is a subjective assessment. You do not have a dowsing rod to the truth of the writers' motivations. It is reasonable to disagree with you. Those who disagree with you do not need to be infallibly correct to be reasonable. I mean, you are free to think you are the authority of how to interpret the text. And that's fine. But there's a large difference between saying you disagree with someone and then saying that their stance is completely ungrounded from any rationality based on the show and they're merely trolling. A lot of my objections are Sanderson's objections, and the objections of many others. I may go further than Sanderson, but casually attempting to dismiss opinions the hivemind here doesn't agree with is borderline cultish behavior.

Yes, I know. The point being he believed that this is what the showrunners were doing. He wasn't trolling and making some bad faith criticism of the show. His experience with the show up to that point brought him to believe that something that asinine was occurring. People were trying to suggest that I was making unreasonable and bad faith criticisms (as they are suggesting, yet again). I'm saying that one can watch the show and reasonably come to the conclusion that the showrunners would do something like make the dagger part of the ashandarei, as stupid as that is, since this is what one of the co-authors themselves believed. Sanderson wasn't being a troll. He simply expressed his criticisms based on how he was experiencing the show, as divorced as that may be from your own experience. I look forward to joining forces in a couple of years. Edit: I corrected the quote I was addressing. That must have been a very confusing response.

This I agree with. The land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he is one with the land.

You don't have to. But you are mischaracterizing my actions. I make these comments because these are my views of the show from how I've experienced the show. You have a fundamentally different experience of the show, so you think I'm just being petty. No, our experiences and views of the show really are that different. And I would like to remind everyone that when I made fun of the evil dagger of Shadar Logoth being part of Mat's ashandarei, I was accused of making petty predictions since I am mad at the show or whatever, but it seems like that legimately may be an accurate prediction (which some are already trying to now normalize as a perfectly acceptable change). Among other discussions that people viewed as petty or nitpicking. I think it may be worth reassessing your own perception of the show if that which you view as a ridiculous criticism turns out to be validated. I see we're leaping right to the notion that if an opinion is disagreeable it must be trolling. Didn't we have a protracted discussion of the logic of Egwene using the a'dam on Renna, where several people were declaring that it was clearly out of line to point out that this violated the show's own rules? I mean, it makes so much sense, right? It obviously wasn't used as a weapon, there's no possible way a person can in good faith argue otherwise. You would have to be completely obtuse not to see it. Then one of the co-authors of the series expresses puzzlement over the same a'dam issue. Someone who was a fan of the series, spent years consulting with Jordan's widow and reading his notes and writing the final books, had the same issue. You may not think Sanderson is the final word on it, but he has some credibility by virtue of his credentials and it's hard to rationally say that his criticisms are just bashing the show senselessly. If your immediate approach to an opinion you dislike is to resort to ad hominem attacks, perhaps your own position is weaker than you believe.

It's hard to say how they'll approach it in the show. I doubt they'll go for the poly relationship as it is in the books. It has been foreshadowed by Min that Rand is with three beautiful women, but that could mean anything. Lanfear is a beautiful woman. It could be someone else, too. Or it could be the same women as in the book, but a different dynamic. Maybe Elayne and Rand are together, but Elayne is also with Aviendha. Maybe Aviendha and Rand is a thing, but she is also interested in Elayne and Perrin. Etc. Even though Alanna is in what is portrayed as a positive dynamic with two men, I think it's likely the show will make an effort to depict Rand as being kind of a selfish pig for going outside of monogamy, if I have any proper sense of the showrunner's approach to things so far. Unless Rand becomes bisexual and makes advances to Mat or some other male, in which case it probably will take a more positive spin.

Yes, I do. I suppose the dissonace is that you cannot see the changes thus far being so divorced from the original material that it seems like a completely different story, and this speculation I'm making does, and therefore you do not view the speculation as reasonable. For me, the experience is different. I'm not wildly exaggerating when I say the show to me is as if someone heard a sketch description of the books a few years ago, and then decided to make a show of what they remember of the description. The show in my mind has very little to do with the books. And so to me, if the showrunners are time pressed, this seems like a reasonable speculation. It doesn't mean I think it will happen; it simply means I think it's a plausible avenue for the show to go down. And it really does fit with what has happened in the show so far, in my mind.

I kind of wonder this myself. Perhaps instead of rushing everything in the next 8 books, Judkins chooses to fully diverge from the books and create his own ending? Perhaps in this telling of the Wheel Lanfear does succeed in turning Rand to the dark side, and Egwene has been spun out as a replacment Chosen One to take on the fallen Dragon. It would actually fit in very nicely with how the show has done things so far.

I'm a little curious how everyone speculates the show will end if Judkins et al is told to wrap it up by season 4 or 5? Season 3 is a lock, and of course the worse case scenario for the show is Amazon just cuts it off there, but what if Judkins is given a full season or two to end things in a way that fits his vision?

Also, ta'veren. I really do appreciate that Jordan made plot armor an actual mechanic of his story.

If they're cutting the Finns for time reasons, how are they going to make room for an original plot to cleanse the dagger in season 3? Already there is a lot that needs to be done. Again, the books are not at all a reliable guide for future events in the show, but presumably in some form we'll have: 1) Perrin possibly meeting Faile (unless he's intended to match with Aviendha instead or whatever they plan). 2) Perrin going to the Two Rivers. 3) Rand going to the Waste. 4) Potentially Rand getting Callandor? It hasn't been mentioned in the show, so I doubt this. 5) The overthrow of Siuan. Unless the showrunners intend for her to team up with Elaida against Moiraine, or something along that line. 6) Elayne romancing Rand? 7) Nynaeve and Elayne off on their adventure to hunt Black Ajah, and potentially deal with Moghedien. 8) Whatever additional scenes are required to pad out the screentime for Moiraine and Lan. Perhaps this could be the cleansing plot line?

I take it you were consulted for Game of Thrones? To be fair, the show descended into nonsense in the later seasons, but it could have been much worse in the early seasons with different showrunners. Imagine having these kind of conversations. "Rafe, I appreciate your artistic vision, but do you really think in the Battle of Blackwater it's a good idea to have Cersei do an anime scream, then defeat Stannis Baratheon in a slow motion sword fight?" Or "Are we sure it's a good idea for Jon Snow to be injured and knocked to the side so that Gilly picks up Longclaw and disarms a Whitewalker in battle and then kills it?" Or "Wait, why is Shae effortlessly manipulating Littlefinger and Varys as the true power behind the throne?"

All right. Co-author Brandon Sanderson, whose conclusion on goodreads received 4.4, 4.5, and 4.6 scores (which even with the grade inflation of goodreads is high, and these are among the highest rated WoT books), and who is one of the most popular fantasy authors living, is clearly a hack and not a true fan, especially since he didn't like The Glass Onion or Rogue One. No. The people here are the true loremasters who know what a good story is, and Rafe Judkins, with his imdb rated show of 7.1, and its fairly mediocre viewership numbers, is the true talent who understands good storytelling. Also, it's essential we get random fan Mat's unadulterated reaction (regardless of his own desires). That's what is truly interesting, not the opinion of the co-author, who the showrunners themselves consulted (and ignored, apparently, because they clearly have a handle on things). I'm afraid I will respectfully disagree with the sentiment here.

Sanderson has made the following comments regarding the session: And

You may be right. Did his viewers feel alienated that the co-author of The Wheel of Time series had legitimate criticisms? What did they expect? Sanderson to be the silent guest while two random people said "amazing!" occasionally? It's perfectly fine that you're enjoying the show. I'm glad you do. I enjoy it too (for different reasons than you do, admittedly). By all accounts, Sanderson also enjoys it, and thinks (unlike me) the show does more right than wrong. But it's also fine to have criticisms too. And I'm glad Sanderson had a forum to speak his criticisms. I can't find it in me to care that this may have interrupted the reactions of two random people in the process. I can't imagine they cared either because they signed up to do this with Sanderson. I have to say, I think you two may be nitpicking. (I tease, I tease.)

That's fine. Regardless of your views of Sanderson's opinions, I thought it was interesting and I appreciate Sanderson for being so frank. When I watched that reaction video, it certainly wasn't to see two random fans smile and clap at something I've already watched. It was for the co-author of the series to give his thoughts and opinions on the show that is adapting The Wheel of Time. Which is what happened.

Sanderson just did his live reaction for the season finale. He shares a lot of the complaints I have, but rather than focus on mechanistic problems (though he did point those out, too, especially Mat and his dagger), his focus was on what he viewed as the mishandling of themes and characters. I thought he had a lot of worthwhile insights. He was also more generous to the show than I am, because he did find some positive qualities he thinks the show did right (unlike me, I don't think he's watching it with the same perspective of watching The Room).