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StarksInTheNorth

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  1. It seems odd that the 4th-born son would have a seat and official title, one that seems like it could be passed on, while his two elder brothers did not. Maybe because Prince Aerys was bookish and Prince Rhaegel mad, meek, and sickly, but I feel like Rhaegel would have taken offense? Has this ever been explained or do I need to wait until Fire and Blood Vol. 2?
  2. He has not. Jeyne-as-Arya is being sent to Jon Snow at the wall because "a true king pays his debts." Pretty much, Stannis promised Jon to give him Arya, so he is. She is to be escorted there by Justin Massey, who is on his way to Braavos by way of Eastwatch. He is tasked to pay for sellswords and archers to fight for Stannis. However, it's a widely-accepted theory by most of the fandom that Jeyne-as-Arya will end up in Braavos. The theory goes that Justin, Jeyne, and company arrive at Castle Black on the tail end of Jon's death, during the sweet spot between "Jon is dead" and "Jon is alive, part 2." There are two potential backup plans: either send Jeyne with her companion, Alysanne Mormont, to the care of Queen Selyse at the Nightfort, or take her to Braavos. There's more to be done narratively with Jeyne if she's in Braavos, so idea prevails. There's no current POV at the Nightfort and likely not to be one for some time. In comparison, her running into Arya has a lot of potential for the story and their individual development.
  3. Are there any stories or notes of Prince Daemon interacting with his sons, or reacting to the "death" of Prince Viserys? I don't think I've noticed anything on my reread of F&B. I presume Daemon was presumably not that paternal, but surely he would feel something to lose one of his precious sons? IMO it would've been good to mention his reaction when he gets t he news that Aemond has left King's Landing and that they can claim the capital. The news likely arrived around the same time and swearing to avenge his son would've fit. Edit: particularly when you consider how paternal-ish he may have been with Nettles (I'm a much bigger fan of this than the lovers theory).
  4. I'm thinking there's a chance she hears it from one of the Three Sisters, especially since the duckish Sunderland boys were mentioned. The Sisters are a passage between north and south and it would be really easy for them to bemoan not getting to go and that they're very excited to be at the Gates. If they say "the wedding of the Bastard of Bolton to the Stark girl" she could be jolted out, the way she was with Myranda and "the new lord commander, some son of Ned Stark's."
  5. I've seen the theory that Myranda was figuring out that Alayne = Sansa, but this seems more plausible. IMO Anya Waynwood knows who Sansa is, or that she isn't Alayne. If you do the math, Petyr wasn't in Gulltown when Alayne would have been conceived. Related, I actually came here to guess that Bronn is the child of the Waynwood girl and her Sellsword. I have zero evidence and I hate all the secret identity theories, but I thought it could be funny enough for head canons or fanfic. Especially since show Bronn ended up with Highgarden, book Bronn getting the Vale would be amusing but imo not really in line with anything relevant.
  6. *tinfoil hat* she’s actually Jon Snow’s biological mother. Lord Cerwyn took her on campaign for the rebellion and hoped his then-fifteen/sixteen year old could seduce Ned and stop the marriage with Cat. She did, but too late. *please note I’m being 98% sarcastic right now* But in actuality, I don’t think it’s that much of a stretch for Lord Cerwyn to have hoped for a marriage throughout time. House Cerwyn is the closest to Winterfell and after marrying two children south, Lord Rickard would do well to reinforce his relationships with his bannermen when he married of Eddard and Benjen. Much like Lord Ryswell hoping to marry Barbrey to Ned, Lord Cerwyn may have hoped for Ned or Benjen for his daughter. In fact, Jonelle would have been a fantastic marriage for a later son of Rickard. She is the only known child of House Cerwyn known to live at the time of the Rebellion. Cley was significantly younger than his sister, conceived only after the Rebellion was done. Rickard could have constructed a marriage agreement with Lord Cerwyn that the lord wouldn’t father a child or remarry, so that Jonelle/Eddard or Jonelle/Benjen would become the new rulers of those lands. Even after the rebellion, Benjen/Jonelle may still have been in the cards. But Ned seems to have wanted to keep his family close after the war trauma, and at some point Benjen left to join the watch. Eventually, Medger also had a son so his daughter was no longer his heir. But while his son was young and not grown to adulthood, it would be hard to send off his daughter to marry someone who could later make a claim for her. Somewhat like Elizabeth and Mary Tudor never being married off during their father’s lifetime or brother’s. Jonelle could have been a reasonable choice for Lady of Winterfell to Robb. Women at the age of thirty are still fertile, even if she is plain, and Westerosi women have given birth as late as their 40s and 50s. Tywin expects Cersei to remarry, and she’s older than Jonelle. Jonelle may also have had a lord’s education, as her father’s heir, so if a marriage was made she could be entrusted with ruling the North in Robb’s place in a way a younger girl wouldn’t be. Imagine if Tyrion and Sansa returned to the Rock and were the de facto or actual Lord and Lady. Sansa is still only 13/14 and might not be up to running a giant castle. Certainly she’s doing well enough in the Vale, but the Eyrie is notably empty compared to larger castles and at the Gates of the Moon she’s serving to assist Myranda. But an older woman with a lords education might very well be the perfect choice of a war bride.
  7. Because Lyanna is likely not nearly as important as Jon at that point
  8. I think it really depends what his goals are. We aren't privy to this exactly. F&B, WOIAF, and the characters focus on his vision of conquest, but I personally lean towards the theory of "Aegon wanted to unite the kingdoms so they were ready to fight the Others, who were coming soon." And that he knew about the Others through either the visions of Daenys the Dreamer or the Song of Ice and Fire (or both, since some speculate she wrote the song). Daenys was Aegon I's great-great-great-grandmother, but the timeline means it's possible that he met her. Maybe. Maester Aemon was the great-great-great-uncle of Jon, though neither of them knew it. If that was his intention, I think he would be sorely disappointed in his descendants, until we get to Aegon V, Maester Aemon, and Rhaegar. All of them were driven by prophecy. If his vision is conquest alone, then Daeron and Viserys II are probably big on him.
  9. I'm currently working on a timeline for the Dance of Dragons. I made an interesting observation. Wasn't sure where to share since I don't think there's a general thread for discussing the Dance? But anyway, the time period between Viserys I's death and the death of Rhaenyra is exactly 19 months and 19 days. This works if you assume each month is 30 days. But he died on 3/3/129 and she died on 10/22/130. It's a year from 3/3 to 3/3, plus 7 months from 3/3 to 10/3, and then 19 days from 10/3 to 10/22. Certainly, the Dance continued after but I thought it was interesting if that was intentional by GRRM.
  10. Ned trusting everyone to be honorable in AGOT (including his warning to Cersei) or Jon after the pink letter
  11. I'm starting to think Lyanna did not die in childbirth. Assuming R+L=J, Ned Stark rides up at just the right time in two major events of the rebellion: the Sack of King's Landing and the birth of Jon/death of Lyanna. This is incredibly coincidental and my suspension of disbelief is limited. Someone recently created a thread about who the "they" who found Ned holding Lyanna's body was. My speculation there was that maybe Ned waited to fight the Kingsguard because they let him in to see his sister, but that after her death they fought over Jon. My latest, mostly baseless speculation, is that Lyanna was stabbed (either on purpose or on accident) during the conflict at the Tower of Joy. Perhaps she gives birth okay, Ned appears and wants to take her and her child home, but the Kingsguard will only let him take Lyanna. She refuses to leave Jon, tries to take him, and the Kingsguard fight back. This leads to the conflict, and then she's stabbed and dies. I like this idea for a few reasons: first, it gives Lyanna agency. She lacks a lot of agency throughout the story, from her betrothal to Robert to the events surrounding her disappearance. Second, I think it might tie with Lyanna's character that she would try to take her son. She would carry a sword if Rickard let her, so picking up a knife to bring her baby with her seems in character with the wolfsblood. Third, it goes with the message GRRM seems to be saying about Aerys' Kingsguard, that they weren't all they were cracked up to be. There's a theme of true knights through ASOIAF, especially around Sansa, Brienne, Jaime, etc. And these supposed paragons of knighthood choosing not to let a young woman keep her baby goes in line with that exploration of true knighthood. Finally, I just think it makes more sense based o the symptoms we know about her. An argument against this is that Ned mentions "the fever had taken her strength." According to wikipedia, modern diagnosis of puerperal fever is based on a spike in fever for ab out 24 hours in the ten days after birth. Based on that alone, Jon was likely born by the time Ned showed up. If the baby is over a day old, it doesn't make sense that she would still be covered in blood from the incident. And we know there was a lot of blood: "Lyanna in her bed of blood" (AGOT Ned X) and in Theon's prophetic dream she's in "a white gown spattered with gore." Postpartum hemorrhage usually happens within a day of giving birth and can happen up to 12 weeks after. It is possible that she had the fever and the blood, but the use of "gore" really stands out to me. Theon's vision/dream is more horrific than other descriptions, but a stab wound would notably be gory. I could be reading too much into these notices, but since there's so few details, who knows what's true.
  12. The Lannister-Tyrell alliance was winning. His death isn’t even the big problem for the alliance. It’s the death of Tywin that really does it in. For ease of discussion, I’m going to assume that Olenna dies and with her, the plot to kill Joffrey. Some pleasant news first: Sansa’s life is probably at least a little better than everyone else’s. Tyrion was already talking about leaving King’s Landing after the wedding and has been given the option of Dorne. I forget if Olenna’s invitation was in the show or books or both, but that’s there as well. Tywin doesn’t trust anyone, so he doesn’t let Tyrion go there. But he lets him take Sansa back to the Rock because he’s a somewhat sensible dictator. Tywin is going to see the benefit of separating Sansa from Joffrey - especially if Joffrey’s focus on Sansa might keep him from getting an heir on Margaery. If she’s still in town by the time Brienne arrives, maybe Brienne swears herself to Sansa as a sworn shield instead of traipsing across the Riverlands. Some interesting shenanigans for northern politics might go down if Brienne feels caught between Sansa and “Arya”, but then is told the truth and goes to Casterly Rock. This means Sansa will likely get let in on the truth and could blossom politically in that capacity. At this point, Joffrey doesn’t have a reason to hate Margaery and so probably doesn’t abuse her at this point. Maybe he’s rough in bed, who knows. Meanwhile, Tywin has been doing a decent job as Hand in governing the country and continues to do so. Joffrey at thirteen might be okay with this for now, seeing as he doesn’t fight it hard in ASOS. But if hes pleased with his wife, he might start listening to her. And there’s a very good place for the ambitious Tyrells to sweep in and take over the power of the throne. Convince Joffrey that he’s being held back by his mother and grandfather and he might believe the Tyrells. Cersei is already whispering how much she hates Margaery in his ear. It would be easy for his wife to tell him his mother only says that because she doesn’t want him to be a great Ming, and Cersei is angry that Margaery supports him unconditionally. Bada bing bada boom, the Tyrells manipulate the Lannisters out of power and Mace Tyrell is Hand of the King. They let Joffrey get away with his psychotic tendencies, while they focus on righting the realm in their own favor. Ironically, Westeros might be better off for the time being that way. Food supplies from the Reach continue coming to Kings Landing and no one is dumb enough to give the Sparrows back their swords because Cersei isn’t around to have Tyrion’s high Septon smothered. The forces of the Reach aren’t as divided. Lysa Arryn stays out of the fight because of Littlefinger, but she also doesn’t die for at least a little while longer. Maybe Littlefinger tries to get Tyrion and Sansa to visit the Vale so an accident can happen. Once Euron does his thing, Margaery and Mace quickly convince Joffrey to take care of them with the Redwyne Fleet. The assault on Dragonstone and Storm’s End probably continues, but slower. Storms End might be starved out because Mace’s chosen commander doesn’t have to return to the city to free Margaery from the Faith. Now, this marital bliss can only last so long. Everyone knows he’s crazy and awfu, but they endure it because they have to. He has a claim, but they don’t. Until they do. Either Margaery gets pregnant or Tywin made the smart move to stash Tommen safely away in Casterly Rock. Once Joffrey gets to be too much, he can be taken care of for a second time. Either murder or Margaery convinces the king to lead the charge on Dragonstone and he gets Lorased. So his court is still uneasy, but his claim is secure. Let’s say Margaerys not pregnant and Tywin is bidding his time, and then the Golden Company invades. There’s still disarray, but the core of Westeros is more united than in canon. But still not as much as it should be. The Martells flock to Aegon and maybe the commons to. Tywin might think Myrcella/Aegon is a fine arrangement to get a grandchild on the throne (but probably not). Ultimately, the boy will fail unless Varys makes better plans and does more chaos in the capital. A dead Margaery, for example. In short: the realm will be fine and people may suffer his sadism, but others may escape it.
  13. Considering the Maesters legitimized Robert through his grandma’s claim, it does increase Dany’s threat level, at to the lawyers. And an ambitious loyalist like Mace could see a baby Dany I as a spouse for one of his three sons to become the king. If she’s “dead,” all it would take is a Valyrian look-alike as Ms. Tyrell and the act is sold. Someone like Doran might say the same, and we know he actually did.
  14. In-universe, you can’t just leave aside ethical issues though. The Westerosi do have a legal system and a moral code. And that code would generally be against killing children, even if they have a claim to a royal title. but even if you do have no morals, there’s a very valid reason for not killing them: assurance that you have them. After the princes in the tower disappeared, multiple pretenders led rebellions claiming to be one of them. We’ve already seen this used in Westeros: Jeyne Poole as Arya is a pretender and potentially Aegon. Alys Rivers of Harrenhal seems poised to claim her child is Aemond’s and that it’s the rightful heir to the throne and there’s an indication in Fire and Blood that there will be pretenders later on claiming to be Daeron the Daring or Maelor. As long as Robert has possession of the Targaryen children, they won’t be a threat to his reign. But the minute he loses them or they die, suddenly the realm is rife with pretenders.
  15. See there’s no indication that they’d be killed though. Tywin’s killing of Rhaenys and Aegon was specifically to show his loyalty because he had sat out of the f get for so long. Be waited to take a side, and had to make up for that to get what he wanted (his daughter as queen). I have no doubt that he was planning it from the moment the battle turned towards the Baratheon faction. But Tywin wasn’t really influential on Robert. He was around, but the power behind the throne was really Jon Arryn. If the Baratheon alliance managed to capture the baby and Viserys, Jon would potentially have the political foresight to immediately bind them to the throne. Betroth Dany to Joffrey or Renly immediately and do something with Viserys as well. Keep him close to the throne as a hostage, somewhat like Theon, send him to the wall, or marry him to a close ally who can be trusted with a claimant to the throne. IMO the wall one seems most likely, especially since they could time it with when Benjen took his vows so there’s someone watching over the kid. After a few years in the north, he’d be all both forgotten.
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