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StarksInTheNorth

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  1. I could see this, although the Brandon and Rickon deaths at Theon's hands also are a pretty clear analogue for Richard and Edward, especially with the younger brother being the one to come back (Rickon and Perkin Warbeck claiming to be Richard).
  2. I think it worked better in the show since Tommen was an actual adult and not eight. Eight-year-olds lack a lot of agency in general and I still don't think book!Tommen understands his power, considering he thought it would be a good idea to outlaw beets? broccoli? or whatever vegetable it was. The "Tommen as champion" suggestion is interesting, although again he is eight. High Sparrow seems too invested in actually winning to put the king up against a monster knight who is over eight feet tall. I'm expecting it'll end up being Theodan Wells (Ser Theodan the True) or some other Warrior's Son who knows how to fight like a knight.
  3. A lot going on in your post to consider and respond to, but I quickly wanted to push back on the postponement of the trials. I know it's by no means definitive, but the deaths of King Joffrey and Hand Tywin still led to politics and events occurring. According to the fan timeline, Tommen's wedding to Margaery was the day after Tywin's wake, a month and a half after her wedding to Joffrey. Mace Tyrell in the show seemed to be a combination of book!Mace and Harys Swift. But in the books, he's shown to be much more concerned with power (even if he is still a pompous oaf). The Tyrell contingent is going to want Margaery to be free and cleared ASAP because it's not a good look. Cersei is a bit callous where her uncle and Pycelle are concerned so while I think it causes the factions to be more distrusting of each other, they all still have something invested in seeing the trials out. Mace can even use Cersei's win as a reason to follow through on Kevan's plan to return her to Casterly Rock (it wouldn't work, of course, but he can still try). In fact, the entire situation leaves loads of room for power grubbing by the different factions. There's been indications that Mace wants to be the Regent for Tommen, and the deaths give him the chance to seize that power. In the Dance Epilogue, the Lannisters seem to be in power with 5/8 council positions (4/6 of those present, since Redwyne and Jaime are away) - Regent, Grand Maester, Master of Coin, Whispers, and Lord Commander. Mace will surely appoint himself Regent and send for a new Grand Maester - I'm sure he's aware that his cousin Gormon was supposed to replace Pycelle when Tyrion arrested him. So using the chaos ladder to consolidate his power as Tommen's regent, much like Unwin Peake tried and failed to do, is exactly what I'd expect from Mace. I think Cersei wins the power struggle quickly, though, because of the mention of 'the queen' in TWOW, Mercy I. As other evidence, I just don't think there's a lot that Cersei can do unless she gets back involved with the power scheme, and she's likely to continue playing at being cowed until the trial occurs. Could very well be that she decides to go full off the rails and appoint Qyburn to the position of GM, or raise up one of the various regular maesters running around the Red Keep, Ballabar, Frenken, etc. And a Tyrell v. Cersei political war post-trial would be the perfect time for Nymeria Sand to get in league with Cersei, as an "enemy of my enemy," before eventually backstabbing her. And for Margaery's trial — if it occurs, I still think it'll be off page as the details of it have already been shared so much through Cersei's POVs and Kevan that there's little left to learn. I don't imagine there's a major surprise, and the Tyrells are sure to pull up many witnesses who can say its all false accusations, that she was never alone, that's she chaste, etc. It could be summarized in a few paragraphs of flashback. While it's important, it's not going to affect Cersei's development much imo and the setup was more to have Cersei fall into her own trap, rather than the actual instance of Margaery's downfall.
  4. Thanks for the link! Not sure I love the solution, but timelines in the series are a bit wonky to begin with
  5. I'm going to disagree pretty heavily on the emphasized point. The only people at fault for Mycah's death in particular are the Hound (who did the action), and Cersei and Joffrey, who ordered it. Sansa's truth or lies were unable to affect it. Cersei or Jaime's POV in later books makes it pretty clear that Cersei had ordered the Lannister search parties to kill all three: Nymeria, Mycah, and even Arya, the Hand's daughter. Even if Sansa spoke up during the "hearing" before Robert, the search parties were already out looking for them. We don't know exactly what hour Mycah died, just that his body was returned right after Ned killed Lady. But we also know that the Hound doesn't realize that Arya has been found when he returns with Mycah: "No sign of your daughter, Hand," the Hound rasped down, "but the day was not wholly wasted. We got her little pet." Thus, even if Sansa tells the truth and messengers go out to say that Arya's been found, the issue is handled, prepare to move on out to King's Landing, the Hound still would have found and killed Mycah. The "Lady's death as fate's punishment for Sansa's lies" point has been argued to tears in other places, so I won't address that much, save to say that I'm firmly in the camp of "Ned should have briefed Sansa before asking an eleven-year-old to further piss off the man-child she's expected to marry in a few years." Because telling the truth isn't actually that easy when Sansa thinks the betrothal is legitimate, and her last know reaction with Joffrey was this: His eyes snapped open and looked at her, and there was nothing but loathing there, nothing but the vilest contempt. "Then go," he spit at her. "And don't touch me." Making her betrothed and his mother even angrier, when they've only known each other for a few weeks/months, is not the way to have a strong foundation for their eventual marriage. This is a major flaw of Ned's parenting that we see time and time again where he doesn't communicate particularly well with his daughters. Sansa had already told Ned the whole story in the four days Arya was missing, so he should have recognized that "Joffrey tried to hurt Mycah and then fought Arya" is a bad story to tell someone with a Lannister's pride. Recognizing that and having a short conversation with Sansa, "I know the truth isn't great, but it's still important to tell it," would have been a better parenting move then just expecting a child to know what to do. Unfortunately, this is a pretty egregious instant that could have stopped a lot of pain and suffering between them all.
  6. What I meant by "as if they are fact" is how your original comment stated all your claims as if they were fact and officially in the text, rather than speculation with evidence. You've used the word "obvious(ly)" five times in a single comment but none of your claims are actually obvious. It's obvious to say that Daenerys and dragons, as it's an event that occurred. It's obvious to say that Jaime and Cersei have a conflicted, messy relationship because they both have shown their anger and ardor in equal measure. It is not so obvious to say that Marwyn and the Alchemist are in league in the present timeline, or ever have been. You base this claim off an assertion that Marwyn would have asked true Pate to leave the room. Yet we know little of their relationship prior to Pate's prologue or about what events have conspired since then. There are any number of explanations for why Marwyn would keep not!Pate present without jumping to the farfetched "they're planning to kill Sam and raise dragons from stone." If a young acolyte expressed an interest in seeing the glass candle or hearing about his work, why would Marwyn deny him the chance to see it? And it would draw more suspicion to ask Pate to leave while Sam is talking, rather than keeping him there. Etc. Besides this one incident and Marwyn's association with Mirri, Qyburn, and others, you have not cited any statements from the text of ASOIAF that suggest he has any reason to lie to Sam, any desire to wake stone dragons, or any interest in magicing kingsblood. He has knowledge of certain incidents, yes, but that does not lead to the supposed immediate or obvious corollaries to any of your assertions. I never said that Randyll Tarly's associations with warlocks made it okay, only that its an example of their magics not going as expected. Warlocks are neither good nor evil, and neither is any character in ASOIAF except perhaps the Others. GRRM has frequently commented that he doesn't write characters in one extreme, but writes those that are grey and tangled knots. But my point was that the Marwyn would likely know the success rates or have studied them, rather than immediately jumping to using them himself. You seem to be deliberately misreading what I said. I stated that Marwyn is interested in the dark magic, but not that he does dark magic. As @Springwatch said, studying is not practicing. You can study and discuss something without doing it yourself. Or else most fans of these books are probably way more interested in their siblings than they should be. Finally, the only way of thinking that we explicitly know Marwyn had endorsed from Qyburn was Qyburn's curiosity and the question he asked. That could have been on a philosophical level or just a general encouragement of questions. A brief association between characters is not sufficient to lead to the extrapolation that they both do the exact same thing. Not every man who rides with a knight is a squire and not every man who encourages curiosity is a user of dark magic.
  7. Claims here that have no textual evidence: Marwyn thinks Pate is Pate. The reader only knows Pate isn't Pate because of the prologue. There is no indication that Marwyn has knowledge otherwise and it is not "obvious." It isn't "ridiculous" that Marwyn would have Pate around for the conversation. Of Marwyn, "People said that he kept company with whores and hedge wizards, talked with hairy Ibbenese and pitch-black Summer Islanders in their own tongues, and sacrificed to queer gods at the little sailors' temples down by the wharves. Men spoke of seeing him down in the undercity, in rat pits and black brothels, consorting with mummers, singers, sellswords, even beggars." This indicates that he would be willing to spend company with a smallfolk boy like Pate. Further, Pate isn't necessarily half-witted. Actual Pate knew folk knowledge from the smallfolk, which can be important, and is the type of company that Marwyn would keep. Further, if they were "in league," then the Faceless Man would not have needed to hire Pate to steal Walgrave's key and sneak into the Citadel. Every Archmaester has a key, which means Marwyn would as well. There's no need to steal Walgrave's if they can just use Marwyn's for their supposedly-mutual plots. Actually, it isn't Qyburn who considered the rest to be sheep. It's Marwyn who he is quoting. From AFFC, Cersei II: "The archmaesters are all craven at heart. The grey sheep, Marwyn calls them." But just because Marwyn thinks they're craven, again, does not immediately apply that he was partaking in the same dark arts as Qyburn. Your comment about queer gods is taken out of context. It's stated in Pate's Prologue that "People said that [Marwyn] kept company with whores and hedge wizards, talked with hairy Ibbenese and pitch-black Summer Islanders in their own tongues, and sacrificed to queer gods at the little sailors' temples down by the wharves." While rumors can frequently be true, there are also rumors spread throughout FeastDance that we know are not, from Daenerys bathing in the blood of children to Viserys Plumm's six-foot penis. You can only put so much credence in rumors. Oldtown is the former center of the Faith of the Seven, home to the Starry Sept. It's beyond unlikely that they would allow human sacrifice to go on under their noses. In Braavos, they keep temples to all the gods and we learn about the gods beyond the old and new. But there's no indication that whatever gods Marwyn is worshipping accept human sacrifice, just because they're considered "queer" to Pate and the other "People" of the Seven's greatest city. Everytime warlocks are referred to in ASOIAF, it's the warlocks of Qarth. It's not indicated that their magic is evil, just different from what is expected. And it seldom works, like when they were used to try and make Sam less a craven at Horn Hill. There's no indication that the shadows bound by Melisandre have anything to do with dead people or necromancy. In fact, the shadow assassins are implied by Melisandre to be born of sexual intercourse, not necromancy. All that said, yes, Marwyn is interested in dark magic, but there is little to no textual support for you to make these claims as if they are fact as @Springwatch has said.
  8. It's not an assumption, it's literally what Marwyn tells Sam: Alleras stepped up next to Sam. "Aemon would have gone to her if he had the strength. He wanted us to send a maester to her, to counsel her and protect her and fetch her safely home." . . . "Get myself to Slaver's Bay, in Aemon's place. The swan ship that delivered Slayer should serve my needs well enough. The grey sheep will send their man on a galley, I don't doubt. With fair winds I should reach her first." Marwyn glanced at Sam again, and frowned. "You . . . you should stay and forge your chain. If I were you, I would do it quickly. A time will come when you'll be needed on the Wall." He turned to the pasty-faced novice. "Find Slayer a dry cell. He'll sleep here, and help you tend the ravens."
  9. The first is that a Lannister of the Rock is still considered to be a pretty good marriage arrangement and they'll definitely have the financial ability to support their family with Desmera. The second is that the future of Casterly Rock is very ambiguous right now. The official inheritance is: Descendants of Tytos: Tywin Cersei, current Lady of the Rock Tommen (King of Westeros, technically also Lord of Storm's End and Dragonstone) Myrcella Jaime (sworn to the Kingsguard) Tyrion (attainted as a kingslayer and kinslayer) Kevan Lancel (sworn to the Warrior's Sons) Willem (dead) Martyn Janei Tygett Tyrek (presumed dead in the bread riots) Genna (Lady of Riverrun) Cleos Frey (dead) Tywin Frey (heir to Riverrun) Willem Frey (another child) Lyonel (married) Tion (dead) Red Walder descendants of Jason: Damon Damion Lucion Lanna Lanna's sons Stafford (dead) Daven Daven's sisters Stafford's other brothers and their descendants Joanna (dead, circle back to Cersei) Stafford's other sisters and their descendants At first glance, it might not seem like Daven is close. But if we break it down with all the people who are cut out because they're lords of something else, dead, or sworn vows against lordship: Myrcella Martyn Janei Willem Lyonel Red Walder Damon Damion Lucion Lanna Lanna's Sons Daven Daven's sisters Stafford's other brothers and their descendants Stafford's other sisters and their descendants Let's pare this down some more: Tommen's got a lot of extra titles and land, so it would be no surprise if he gave Myrcella Storm's End or Dragonstone. Martyn's been put forward as a new husband for Amerei Frey to become Lord of Darry, which would likely exclude him. So if Cersei dies without any other children, Daven is 10th in line for the Rock. He could make a solid claim for it. Janei is a girl and a child, which didn't work great when Cerelle Lannister was briefly Lady of the Rock. Emmon Frey is trying to be named Lord Paramount of the Reach and is now holding one of the realm's great castles, and his children are considered Freys and not Lannisters, so there's a good chance Willem, Lyonel, and Red Walder (another child) will not looked upon for the seat. Damon Lannister and his descendants are rarely mentioned, although Damion is castellan of the Rock. But since they're descended from a Lannister almost on the wrong side of blanket, albeit technically a senior Lannister to Daven's ancestors, Daven actually has quite a good claim.
  10. I disagree. In her last chapter of ADWD, Dany was choosing the more violent warpath as a way to achieve the justice she sees. I think she sweeps in and turns the Black Walls of Volantis into a new Harrenhal or Field of Fire with her dragon power. The masters are destroyed in a huge flight of death, but the worshippers of the Red God hail her as Azor Ahai and she leaves the city to the freedmen before marching on to Pentos.
  11. I'm not sure if anyone else has pointed this out before, but is possible Jaime misremembers the time that Jon Darry told him they were sworn to protect Rhaella, but not from Aerys? In AFFC, Jaime II, he recalls Jon Darry standing guard with him the day that Aerys burned his mace-and-dagger Hand, Lord Chelsted. However in ASOS, Jaime V, he tells Brienne that the kingsguard "were all away" and Jaime was the only one in King's Landing when Lord Chelsted confronted Aerys about the wildfire. From Tyrion I, ACOK, we know that Aerys last Hand was only around for a fortnight or so. Even if Darry left the next morning, he would have to ride to Stoney Sept, rouse the men, and then go to the Trident in time to die during the thick of battle. While it makes plenty of sense for Aerys to unfortunately rape Rhaella the night of Chelsted's death, I feel like Darry's advice and pairing it with that day is a bit of an UnKiss on Jaime's part. Am I missing something, or is this just a lil bit of a timeline goof on GRRM's part?
  12. So in F&B there's two specific instances of dragons in the North. The first is Queen Alysanne in summer and Prince Jacaerys in autumn. Neither of their dragons liked the cold and when Alysanne tried to fly Silverwing over the wall, he disobeyed her. This has led to several kinds of speculation: the dragons won't be useful in the war against the dawn. This seems mostly be be anti-danys (many Jon/Sansa shippers tbh) but imo you don't introduce dragons for them not to be useful in the endgame. the wall keeps dragons/fire magic on one side and Others/ice magic on the other, so they were magically bound not to cross. Destroying the wall, as many expect to happen, will allow the dragons to cross because the magic barrier is gone. the dragons can cross but don't want to, and so need to be controlled by either really, really good dragon riders or by a greenseer (Bran). There's no Night King in the books. It's the Night's King, but he's a figure of myth and legend and it's been highly implied by GRRM that there's not one Big Bad in this series, so there likely won't be any Others riding ice dragons. Or at least, no Others riding Viserion, Rhaegal, or Drogo. We could end up with actual ice dragons, but I find the ice spiders more interesting.
  13. Yes I'm down to this kind of thought because there is only so many times I can re-read my favorite theories and speculations. I originally read AFFC and ADWD straight-through when I first read them. This was well after they'd both been published, but I wasn't ingrained enough in fandom to know about the various FeastDance combined orders. What I've found since on my many read throughs is I prefer to read by character or geographic theater. Reading Sansa, Tyrion, and Davos as one re-read of ACOK makes it easier to follow and catch all the battle plans for the Blackwater. Especially for FeastDance, reading Tyrion/Daenerys/Barristan/Quentyn as one read through is easier to follow. By now, I know enough about the context that I can read all the Quentyn chapters without feeling lost about the context or missed events (like Dany flying away). Reading by theater or by character will be the quickest way to figure out what happens to my favorites and the outcomes of the plots I've most speculated on (especially since Sansa is both her own character and theater at this point). But at the same time, I know GRRM and his editors put forth a lot of effort to order the chapters in the way they do. It might take longer to get through and to track all the moving pieces, but it's not like we'd have to read it fast to get to the next installment. So, I'm curious: how do you think you'll end up reading The Winds of Winter once it's out?
  14. Per Kevan's chapter in ADWD, Cersei chose trial by combat and will have her trial in five days time, so most of these things will probably not come out. Tommen does whatever he's told but hasn't had any interactions with the High Septon so probably won't be last-minute removing TbC like in the show. I also thought it was highly implied that Kevan is actually reason she had the walk of shame. In the epilogue, Kevan thinks: I have no reason to feel guilty, Ser Kevan told himself. Tywin would understand that, surely. It was his daughter who brought shame down on our name, not I. What I did I did for the good of House Lannister. I could be misreading it, but imo it seems like he was pushing for this form of bail more than the Sparrow. But I will say that Cersei in general is one of my favorite future plot lines. IMO she sweeps her trial and Margaery also wins off stage. Then, we get 1-2 chapters of Cersei paranoid and plotting with cameos by 'Septa' Tyene and Lady Nym in small council before Aegon and Arianne try to take King's Landing. I be a minority opinion, but I actually think Cersei survives TWOW and crowns herself or Myrcella as Queen from Casterly Rock. Littlefinger predicted a "war of the three queens" and I think what he meant was Cersei v. Margaery v. Arianne, but I think it ends up being Cersei/Myrcella v. Arianne v. Daenerys. Also in the same vein, very very very keen to learn what happens to Loras on Dragonstone. My theory is that Olenna in the show took over his role and he ends up counseling Daenerys to "be a dragon" after his family dies in Aegon and Euron's attacks, but tbd.
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