StarksInTheNorth

I just checked the so spake Martin search engine and couldn’t find anything either. I think I remember an interview when GRRM said he was surprised people hated them as viscerally as they do. But he’s also said Daemon is his favorite Targaryen which makes it hard to think he’s not at least a little biased for team Black (even though the ultimate thesis seems to be everyone sucks when the thrones involved and the innocents and children suffer)

I’ve really liked how the show has done most things at this point, although I wish they were a little more ambiguous with Alicent’s ambition or fear for her kids. It would’ve made it more even before this episode broke the camel’s back. Like, have Larys feed the seeds Otto planted, with rumors that Baela has already been promised to be a queen, or describing the fight from the training yard as more violent than it was. But if Alicent avoids telling Aegon he must be king until this episode, and then finally everything happens and she says “you have to be king or else we’re all as dead as your brothers eye,” then it makes it more believable in her build towards fully hating Rhaenyra, rather than just considering her a hypocrite It would balance the books, which really don’t make Rhaenyra and co. look awful until Blood and Cheese happens. Rhaenyra’s crimes pre-Dance are: - Being born a girl - Potential inappropriate relations between Rhaenyra and Daemon - An unclear affair or sexual involvement with Harwin or Criston - Giving birth to bastards - Luke taking Aemond’s eye in a fight when Luke is significantly younger - Marrying Daemon - Being jealous about Alicent being prettier than her because she put on a little weight The entire basis of bad feelings really comes from Daemon and all the murders he maybe caused - Rhea, Harwin, Laenor, etc. Hes also uncommitted to ruling or helping on the Small Council, he hangs out with the commons and whores, and made the goldcloaks violent, but those are acceptable in other princes so none are fatal flaws, unlike the seduction and murder. Meanwhile during all of this, Otto and Alicent are actively conspiring to make Aegon king in front of the world, which Rhaenyra pretty much just puts up with?

@Ran now that we're all caught up with you, can you please confirm who you meant when you said the following: "we think there’s maybe a risk that this particular character will come off in a too-positive light compared to Fire and Blood’s duelling accounts, and consequently place her opposite number in too-negative a light for some in the audience. We’ll have to say how that plays out." "Not all the changes can be explained as purely a matter of getting the material translated to the screen, of course, and one in particular regarding a male character feels so oddly unnecessary that we wonder if there were external reasons for the change (i.e. the writers did it for fear of criticism, because of something similar Game of Thrones did with one of its secondary characters)." And also, if you don't mind extrapolating, what details of the history of the Targaryens have been adjusted to minimize the knock-on effect of the Velaryons being black? I haven't been able to notice anything, afaik.

I heard that comment / viewed the scene as it became more real for him that she was into it, not unappealing. Like, oh I'm trying to seduce my niece to screw with my brother, but this might actually really hurt her too and I love her a lot.

I wholly disagree with this. As a generalization, men are more likely to be stimulated by straight-forward visuals (body parts) but women prefer more emotional connections. We got that throughout the entire scene, especially with the gentle, close focus on their intimate touches as she removed his armor

Can someone please explain why there were a bunch of river lords in the Storm Lands?

^^^ all of this. It will also potentially add some more flavor to the “should we tell Rhaenyra” scene. Maybe Beesbury vote yes first, and then instead of anyone else voting, the Defenestration of Prague is brought into the real world.

Well luckily I never said only! Again, some people are capable of engaging with nuance but plenty aren’t. if someone is still hung up on the race switch over a year past the announcement, then they maybe should go touch grass.

@Corvinus85 @Mark Antony re the passing down to heirs being a can of worms - I think it depends how much they lean into the secret and how much they just let it be subtle in the background. Hopefully we don’t get Rhaenyra saying “but I know this big secret they need to make me queen to save the world!” Every other scene. But I also kind of want her to tell Jacaerys because we could get a great scene between him and Cregan Stark talking about the threat beyond the wall. It would make total sense if there was a “you can tell your sister-wife or brother-husband” caveat to the rule. Aegon would almost certainly have told Visenya and Rhaenys, since they sat the Iron Throne in judgement in a way other queens did not. Aegon told Aenys who told Aegon the Uncrowned, Visenya told Maegor and went to get him as a stronger contender to lead the realm (there’s a solid chance that year was Winter, so it makes Visenya more justified). Young Aegon tells Rhaena while debating if he should rebel, Rhaena tells Jaehaerys who tells Alysanne. Jaehaerys tells his many heirs, Viserys waits to tell Daemon because he’s not at risk of dying and it’s peace time. Rhaenyra is also more justified in her urgency because the Dance is during / prior to Winter so she could think the Long Night is nearing.

I’m really curious if the decide to have Alicent be ambitious or if it’s really just Otto. It didn’t feel like she was on screen enough to tell yet. It did feel like her projecting onto Rhaenyra, who mostly seemed worried for her mother. The trailers show her believing Rhaenyra is devious or ruthless, but Rhaenyra here seems like she’s more interested in living her life and having fun. She wants to fly her dragon and go on adventures, much like Young Arya. But getting invited to the table of power seems like it might change Rhaenyra, which will also change the dynamic of their friendship as well I’m sure. With Alicent’s crush - I felt that she was crushing on Daemon more than Viserys. After Daemon beat her brother and asked for Alicent’s favor, she glanced at Otto and he was obviously displeased with her giving it to Dameon. In comparison, she started getting anxious and biting her nails when her dad sent her to Viserys. In that interaction, I read it as Alicent being a kind person and offering empathy because she knows that everyone is trying to politic Viserys. What he needs is someone to care for him, and she was that supportive shoulder when no one else was there for him.

I started to write a whole explanation of why the race thing doesn’t actually matter and why white portryals in media is different from black portrayals but I’m not interested in engaging trolls or racists so I’m ignoring. The reason I’m writing any comment at all is @Ran is there anyway we could get a rule against discussing this topic? You and Linda tried to engage the topic with nuance but we’ve already had over a year of racist complaints and it’s all repetitive and tired.

In-universe, he was a popular, well-liked king during his time. It makes sense that they would try and soften some of his character to make viewers feel that way as well even if their opinion may be different upon reflection, with more context. Besides that, my main takeaway is that I LOATHE the way they pronounce Aemma as regular Emma. I’ve assumed it was a Valyrian name, since I believe Princess Daella chose it? It makes no sense that Aemma would not be Aye-ma, like other similar Valyrian names: Aye-gon and Aye-mom. Now making me question my sanity. Is Aelor actually El-Or? I was very excited for Aemma and loved her moments with Rhaenyra. I would’ve loved a conversation between Aemma and Rhaenys though, since this is the first time we’ve ever seen multiple Targaryen women interact, but it would probably be repetitive of the conversation Rhaenys will have soon with Rhaenyra. I was surprised by how well they handled the connection to GOT with the mention of the Long Night. I don’t love the concept, and I hope they don’t mention it too much moving forward, but it worked surprisingly well. Also appreciated how they mentioned Rhea Royce, though part of me doubts we see her on screen. I’ve got some questions about how they handle the Alicent / Viserys build up because he very clearly loved Aemma until the end and seems quite heartbroken. There’s got to be some drama with that pairing to make Alicent believe that Rhaenyra will be ruthless and kill Alicent’s kids, since we’ve seen part of the scene with Alicent and Helaena. They’ve teed it the marriage up nicely with Otto gently pushing the idea of Alicent visiting Viserys, so no one should be shocked, but there’s hopefully some closeness and / or drama there to come.

My favorite theory re secret identities is that Alys Arryn's daughter became Septa Nysterica, who works for the Tyrells and is pox-marked. Mostly because it's a fun quirk and doesn't change anything major in the plot. With that said, this could easily work and both could even work together, if we squint at timelines.

He has not. Jeyne-as-Arya is being sent to Jon Snow at the wall because "a true king pays his debts." Pretty much, Stannis promised Jon to give him Arya, so he is. She is to be escorted there by Justin Massey, who is on his way to Braavos by way of Eastwatch. He is tasked to pay for sellswords and archers to fight for Stannis. However, it's a widely-accepted theory by most of the fandom that Jeyne-as-Arya will end up in Braavos. The theory goes that Justin, Jeyne, and company arrive at Castle Black on the tail end of Jon's death, during the sweet spot between "Jon is dead" and "Jon is alive, part 2." There are two potential backup plans: either send Jeyne with her companion, Alysanne Mormont, to the care of Queen Selyse at the Nightfort, or take her to Braavos. There's more to be done narratively with Jeyne if she's in Braavos, so idea prevails. There's no current POV at the Nightfort and likely not to be one for some time. In comparison, her running into Arya has a lot of potential for the story and their individual development.

Are there any stories or notes of Prince Daemon interacting with his sons, or reacting to the "death" of Prince Viserys? I don't think I've noticed anything on my reread of F&B. I presume Daemon was presumably not that paternal, but surely he would feel something to lose one of his precious sons? IMO it would've been good to mention his reaction when he gets t he news that Aemond has left King's Landing and that they can claim the capital. The news likely arrived around the same time and swearing to avenge his son would've fit. Edit: particularly when you consider how paternal-ish he may have been with Nettles (I'm a much bigger fan of this than the lovers theory).

Because Lyanna is likely not nearly as important as Jon at that point

Ned trusting everyone to be honorable in AGOT (including his warning to Cersei) or Jon after the pink letter

I'm starting to think Lyanna did not die in childbirth. Assuming R+L=J, Ned Stark rides up at just the right time in two major events of the rebellion: the Sack of King's Landing and the birth of Jon/death of Lyanna. This is incredibly coincidental and my suspension of disbelief is limited. Someone recently created a thread about who the "they" who found Ned holding Lyanna's body was. My speculation there was that maybe Ned waited to fight the Kingsguard because they let him in to see his sister, but that after her death they fought over Jon. My latest, mostly baseless speculation, is that Lyanna was stabbed (either on purpose or on accident) during the conflict at the Tower of Joy. Perhaps she gives birth okay, Ned appears and wants to take her and her child home, but the Kingsguard will only let him take Lyanna. She refuses to leave Jon, tries to take him, and the Kingsguard fight back. This leads to the conflict, and then she's stabbed and dies. I like this idea for a few reasons: first, it gives Lyanna agency. She lacks a lot of agency throughout the story, from her betrothal to Robert to the events surrounding her disappearance. Second, I think it might tie with Lyanna's character that she would try to take her son. She would carry a sword if Rickard let her, so picking up a knife to bring her baby with her seems in character with the wolfsblood. Third, it goes with the message GRRM seems to be saying about Aerys' Kingsguard, that they weren't all they were cracked up to be. There's a theme of true knights through ASOIAF, especially around Sansa, Brienne, Jaime, etc. And these supposed paragons of knighthood choosing not to let a young woman keep her baby goes in line with that exploration of true knighthood. Finally, I just think it makes more sense based o the symptoms we know about her. An argument against this is that Ned mentions "the fever had taken her strength." According to wikipedia, modern diagnosis of puerperal fever is based on a spike in fever for ab out 24 hours in the ten days after birth. Based on that alone, Jon was likely born by the time Ned showed up. If the baby is over a day old, it doesn't make sense that she would still be covered in blood from the incident. And we know there was a lot of blood: "Lyanna in her bed of blood" (AGOT Ned X) and in Theon's prophetic dream she's in "a white gown spattered with gore." Postpartum hemorrhage usually happens within a day of giving birth and can happen up to 12 weeks after. It is possible that she had the fever and the blood, but the use of "gore" really stands out to me. Theon's vision/dream is more horrific than other descriptions, but a stab wound would notably be gory. I could be reading too much into these notices, but since there's so few details, who knows what's true.

So I have the first edition of F&B so I don't know if anything would be corrected, but the wiki cites that at the age of 12 in 105, Laena was proposed as a bride for Viserys. But if we do the math, she'd be 14 at that point and already betrothed (from the age of 12) to the Sealord's son. Would this be an issue we'd follow the text of the book, even if the book's math is incorrect, or should it be corrected? I'm thinking the best way to address it is to go to a more neutral version like "At 12, Laena was betrothed to the Sealord's son. However, she was later considered in 105 as a potential match for King Viserys." without mentioning her age in 105. This is also the second time I've caught a math issue on my re-read of F&B. It calls Vaegon 40 in 101, but he was 38 at that point.

In the footer on Lords of the Vale: https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Lord_of_the_Eyrie Although I think we can at least update that to say by 267. His brother Ronnel was made Defender of the Gate after their dad died. Ronnel died in 267 or so, right around when Elbert was born. Thus, he was made Defender no later than 267, so dad could have died no later than 267, and Jon was LotE by 267.

Can someone with the app check Jon Arryn's profile? The wiki say he became Lord of the Vale by 272, but also mentions that he fought for Jaehaerys in the War of the Ninepenny Kings. If the app says something like "Lord Jon fought alongside Lord Rickard in the War, and they were friends everafter," I'd argue it could be used as evidence to say that Jon [and possibly also Rickard] were lords by 260.

There’s a whole thread for establishing ages and a whole sub forum for discussing the wiki. If you disagree with the rules and want to change them, bring it up there, not here. You’re not likely to win that fight, but feel free to try. And as for the Sirenei = Larra theory, @Willam Stark has correctly pointed out that it was already debunked by the person who knows the most about ASOIAF besides GRRM, to the point that he’s fact-checked the novels and IS THE AUTHOR OF A CANON BOOK.

This might belong in The timeline thread, sorry if I’m in the wrong place. the page for “years after the conquest” says: Is there any confirmation that the tourney was held in this year, or that it was in steffon’s memory? The little information given makes it seem more abstract.

Is there any explicit textual evidence that Lyanna was 14 at the tourney of Harrenhal? I’m trying to figure out if that Number is used because someone in the fandom did math or if someone said “Lyanna was 14 when ...” I haven’t yet found anything but figured someone else might be aware.

I’m not particularly partial to @Megorova’s theories, but considering how heavily biblical parts of it get, I wonder if something like the tribe of Joseph might make more sense for the Valyrian houses? The tribes of Israel are descended from the twelve sons of Jacob by his two wives and two concubines. By some counts, there are actually thirteen tribes because his youngest son, Joseph, had two sons and each of them because the head of a tribe. It would save poor wife #1 a lot of problems if she had, say, 4 sons, and each one had ten sons. Or maybe five sons who had eight kids each, or six sons with five kids? idk but I’ve been thinking about that poor woman’s womb since I read swan song and grandchildren found Valyria is the only solution I could think of to save her the pain lmao