Odej

Let's imagine that it really was a kidnapping, Lyanna spent months being raped, she became pregnant, her son didn't survive, she didn't die, the rebellion won the war and she was rescued. It wasn't her fault, but she was no longer a maiden. Would Robert go through with the commitment? The obvious answer seems to be yes. After all, the guy fought a war to get her back after the apparent kidnapping and Robert didn't think Rhaegar was playing cyvasse with her. BUT, Robert was a proud man and above all, a noble man in a society where a lady's maidenhood was an asset. Would his passion for her overcome that? Would he get over knowing the man he hated had taken her before him? In the World of Ice and Fire, Maester Pycelle doubts that Tywin would have married Joanna if she were the remains of another man, in this case Aerys. I always thought that under normal circumstances Robert and Lyanna's marriage would have been a disaster. If he married her despite the rape I believe this would become the elephant in the room of the relationship and the marriage would disintegrate even faster. But to get to this we return to the initial question, would he marry her?

I never assumed that. Many characters in asoiaf did really bad things. You mentioned Tyrion and there are others, even Daenerys it's far from been a saint. I don't think either of them is a psychopath. I was talking specifically about Viserys' case. I don't believe he had a bad education or lived in a bad environment in his early years, despite he obviously had suffered. My point is, there are characters like Tywin, Cersei, Ramsay or Euron whose level of evil makes me believe that this was born with them. That is something innate. The different between Viserys and these other guys is that Viserys had no power. Otherwise, as another one had said, he would be a silver Joffrey.

Psychopaths are born psychopaths. It is true that only an absolute minority of them kill or become serial killers, but the absence of empathy and the ability to love (the core of what makes us human) is absent in all of them. I don't believe Viserys was a psychopath, but yes there are people who are born evil. I'm curious though, if you really believe no one is born evil how do you explain a character like Tywin Lannister? What was so disturbing in the formation of his character to make it reasonable for him at the age of nineteen to exterminate thousands of people by drowning, and everything that came after?

To be fair, Rhaegar spent the first seventeen years of his life with a narcissistic and foolish but not mad father. Viserys only knew Aerys worst version. But also to be fair, what do we know about Viserys' education to say he was raised to be bad? Acording to Barristan, queen Rhaella protected him from the worst of Aerys behavior and apart from that we have to keep it in mind that noble parents, especially a king, didn't raise their children like it's commom in our modern society. Tutors did that job, in Westeros maesters and septans. I don't believe for one moment Aerys spent many time with his second son and nothing in the books sugests otherwise much less that Aerys abused him. So it's seems Viserys had know ideia about his father trully nature. Viserys was seven when his mother and him went to Dragonstone and after she died Willem Darry take care of him and his sister. For all we know about him from Daenerys, Willem was kind to them so at what point of his life was Viserys raised badly?

No, I don't. I comment why in another thread of yours so I'm gonna repost here. If there is a moment in which it can be said that Cersei Lannister is a bad person it is when it comes to Melara. We have a ten-year-old Cersei who has just heard a witch prophesy that she will have a very tragic future. It's completely understandable that the girl would be scared, it would be believable for her to look for someone she trusts to tell her about it (Jaime or Aunt Genna), but it's also believable for her to stay silent because she doesn't want anyone else to know about it. Over time, she could have nightmares, become depressed or have tantrums, become paranoid, in short, all the common behavior of someone who has gone through a traumatic experience. But the Cersei who threw her friend into the well is not the adult Cersei from AFFC who has had a whole life to feed fear and paranoia. She was a child who shortly after visiting Maggy and still thinking the old witch was bluffing, chose to deal with what she had heard by KILLING A PERSON. Cersei pushed a girl her own age, her companion, into a well and stood close enough to hear the girl scream for help until she died. The only way a child would have the urge to do such a thing is if she had serious character defects. Because of this, nothing convinces me that Cersei did all or most of the biggest atrocities she did because of her traumas, she is evil.

One thing must be said about the Lannisters, they achieved a feat that not even the Targaryens with their reputation for madness managed: generating monsters for three generations in a row: Tywin, Cersei and Joffrey.

Could you explain yourself better? I mean, what hints made you believe in that. Personally, I don't believe Jon will ever be king. Whether from the North or Westeros. He is Rhaegar's bastard son and even that would be hard for other people to believe. Jaime is going to deal with Stoneheart at this point in the story and although I believe he will be one of the characters who lives until the seventh book, I don't see how he could survive around the war between Aegon and Daenerys. They will both want his head for killing Aerys so either Martin will keep him away from the capital or he will need to get him out of there when things get ugly. Oh, man! I can see what kind of people this comment will attrack to this thread.

Well, I don't believe any of theses theories. Jaehaerys had no problem with or shown jealousy of Saera's relationship with her three suitors. He welcomed her marriage to one of the three. If he had such desires in relation to his daughter, as some think, the estrangement must have started there. Saera lost her virginity in an orgy and even compared herself to her psychopathic great-uncle. That was too much for her father's pride, but I agree that Jaehaerys making her watch him kill Stinger was too much. About Alicent I take the simplest explanation: the old king found himself alone and helpless at the end of his life and began to grow old and feel remorse for certain actions, including how he dealt with Saera's situation. In passing, Jaehaerys and Alysanne were only good parents to their good children. When it came to dealing with the troublemakers, they were deplorable. Alyssane was also unnecessarily harsh with Viserra.

Gods, I hate Saera. Promiscuity wasn't her big problem, although for the world she lived in it was because she is a woman. But this girl doesn't seem to have a drop of empathy, she sees people as toys for her entertainment.

I believe he is talking about Cersei caring about her children. If her feelings for them are similiar to Catelyn Stark feelings about her own children that's another thing. I say no.

My guess, because Doran wants revenge, not justice. Elia and her children were killed because of other people's actions, so her brother wants to do the same. He isn't that noble. That beautiful Doran's speech about thinking about children before starting a war is full of hypocrisy, because even if Tywin was alive Doran actions against him would hurt inocents. Doran desired take everything that was most valuable to Tywin before he died, which was the future and legace of the house Lannister, and for this to happen the prince would need to eliminate Tywin's family. Cersei and Jaime aren't the kindest of people, but they had no part in the murder of Elia and her children (unless you're counting Jaime's passivity). Neither had Joffrey, Tommem and Myrcella, but they would definitely be (or will) among the victims of Doran's revenge if he really meant what he said. And I believe he meant. As @Groo said, "...they have a very active notion of revenge. They didn't just want Tywin dead. They wanted to be the ones to do it." And since Tyrion has taken that pleasure from the Martells, they will seek to satisfact themselves with the remaining Lannisters.

Why in seven hells didn't Aegon or Viserys marry Daeron and Daena? The two were very close, Daeron was the heir, Daena was the eldest daughter, everything fits. Viserys had married Aegon and Naerys, even though the two hate eachother and at time were low in the sucession line, simply because that was the family tradition. It makes no sense and it makes even less that Daena had married Baelor while Daeron was still alive. I remember that in a old interview, when asked about Daeron's sexuality, Martin had said Daeron was married. Well, he obviosly changed his mind about it since Daeron died single.

Well, my interpretation of this scene is that Sandor don't even have time to move. Joffrey gave the order, but Dontos stepped forward precisely to prevent Sansa from suffering a more violent attack. And since Sandor slapped the girl at Joffrey's command when the three of them were alone, I don't think he would have disobeyed the king in the middle of the court. Also, I think there's little point in insolence if in the end you end up doing what you're told.

Sandor also did absolutely everything Cersei and Joffrey comanded him and he really seemed to enjoy killing. I think there was a reason why Joffrey liked him so much.

Which orders did he refuse to obey? Joffrey never comanded Sandor to beat Sansa in public. He did beat her when Joffrey showed Sansa Ned's head.

Why?

Ned resigned as Hand because of this. Sometimes the right thing to do isn't the most pragmatic. Tywin was a powerful man and if Aerys was killed and Rhaegar became king and married Tywin's daugther that would be a very strong ally. That's what Jon Arryn (who people say was a honorable man) did when Robert was crowned. But, if Rhaegar decided to kill Tywin who besides the West would complain? Which one of the other great houses would raise objections against the new king 'cause of that? Tywin was not loved, at Aerys court people mocked him to gain Aerys favor, many would be glad seeing his elimination. That's a thing. We also don't know how was Rhaegar and Tywin's relationship and what the prince thought about becoming his son-in-law. Did he want it? What was his position when his father and Tywin were constantly disagreeing with each other? Rhaegar spoke in favor of Tywin? Against? Did he remained neutral? What do we know?

No, he didn't. For all the reasons @kissdbyfire already metioned. It makes no sense whatsoever for Robb to name Catelyn his heir. First, she is a woman. In this universe, women basically become their husband's property when they get married and take his name. Placing Catelyn as heir means making her a target of dispute for anyone who wants to claim Winterfell and consequently taking the Stark name out of the picture. That was the reason why the Lannisters married Sansa to Tyrion and Robb didn't want his sister as his heir 'cause of that. Second, unlike Sansa and Arya, Catelyn is a Stark by marriage not birth. She's not even from the north. It is very unlikely that the proud northern vassals, who were fighting for the right to be independent again, would accept a southern woman as their ruler. If they did, it would be to claim power through her, as I mentioned earlier. Robb, like any king in his position, wanted the Stark blood and name to continue and for that to happen, he needed a man with Stark blood as his heir.

The scene on the show really stayed in my head, I could swear it was similar in the books. Anyways, this doesn't improve Gared's situation and Ned's decision couldn't be diferent then. There was nothing to do for poor Gared.

I've never imagined that Ned executing Gared would become another "Jon was bad, poor Janos Slynt." I admit that Gared causes a lot of empathy in the reader because we know what happened to him in the prologue. We know he's not lying, but Bran's chapter doesn't come right after unpretentiously. The prologue shows the main threat of the books, the first chapter reveals that for the rest of the realm it was nothing more than a legend to scare children. Here is the conflict. Let's be objective, what was Ned's deal here: A man had been caught after deserting the night's watch, a crime punishable by death, and he justified his action by saying he had been attacked by ice creatures. Something that no one had seen in the last 8 thousand years and that most people probably doubted that ever existed. Anyone would think the guy had lost his mind. We know he hasn't, but Ned doesn't and there's no reason for a Lord to disobey a law that he probably followed several times because the new indicted not only looks crazy but also gave a crazy justification for what he did. The guy had been wandering for days, poorly dressed, without water or food, it is to be expected that he would say nonsense things. But he was afraid! Of course he was suposed to. Gared was a desertor, the penalty was well know!

I don't think the fact that Aegon spent time with common people is a bad thing in itself. As was said, thanks to this he had sympathy for the needs of the people, my point is the biggest source of support for the king comes from the nobility and Aegon was not that tactful with the nobles. In fact many lords considered him half a peasant. His attempts to marry his children into large houses was not only a way to escape incest but also to gain supporters for the reforms he would like to promote for the commom people and who were frowned upon by other lords.

Jaime's biggest mistakes can be summarized in one: thinking with his dick.

I think that's because like many people Barbrey needs put the blame in someone. And Catelyn not only stole Brandon from her, she stole Ned too since Barbrey hoped a marriege with Rickard second son after Brandon engagement with Catelyn. That didn't happen, she married another guy and she seems to like him, but this one was also taken from her, and this time by Ned.

But talking about Petyr, yes the man is trash. Everything about his relationship with Sansa is disgusting.

If there is a moment in which it can be said that Cersei Lannister is a bad person, it is when it comes to Melara. We have a ten-year-old Cersei who has just heard a witch prophesy that she will have a very tragic future. It's completely understandable that the girl would be scared, it would be believable for her to look for someone she trusts to tell her about it (Jaime or Aunt Genna), but it's also believable for her to stay silent because she doesn't want anyone else to know about it. Over time, she could have nightmares, become depressed or have tantrums, become paranoid, in short, all the common behavior of someone who has gone through a traumatic experience. But the Cersei who threw her friend into the well is not the adult Cersei from AFFC who has had a whole life to feed fear and paranoia. She was a child who shortly after visiting Maggy and still thinking the old witch was bluffing, chose to deal with what she had heard by KILLING A PERSON. Cersei pushed a girl her own age, her companion, into a well and stood close enough to hear the girl scream for help until she died. The only way a child would have the urge to do such a thing is if she had serious character defects. Because of this, nothing convinces me that Cersei did all or most of the biggest atrocities she did because of her traumas, she is evil.