EggBlue

16 hours ago, Darryk said:

Jon Snow all the way, when his true identity is revealed.

Aegon is a fraud #FakeAegon

Dany is entitled

Stannis is crazy

but he "don't want it" 

Targaryen or Blackfyre . Aegon VI, all the way! 

On 1/18/2023 at 12:22 AM, King Jaehaerys II said:

Going into the WOW , which claim to the throne do you support the most?

I really like young Griff/Aegon but I have to say Stannis the Mannis 

young Griff:)) I'll support him to the bitter end!

to be honest, I pretty much doubt that either GRRM/Cheesmonger/Spider had any proper plans! Even Jon Con complains about this. 

the only thing that can make sense to me is that Illyrio and Varys are coming up with these plans when they see opportunities. They take Aegon because there's a chance he'd be useful. They reach JonCon , starting project perfect-king when Robert becomes a disappointment, and they can predict a mess in the future. They think of the Dothraki and Viserys and Daenerys when Jon Arryn, and Stannis start asking questions. They remember Dany can be useful after she has dragons. It would be very odd if they had a plan from the beginning. Including (and especially) fAegon, Blackfyre, or Aegon the Savior plan! They seem to be rich enough just to rent a famous sellsword company for a side project too! I mean, we are given zero indication that Illyrio had any reason to give three expensive dragon eggs to Dany. But he does, and neither he nor Dany see it as any financial difficulty. 

Just now, Craving Peaches said:

I used to think not and it was just him not following advice that lead to an infection, however I was thinking about it again and now I'm not so sure. Khal Drogo isn't stupid, he never lost a battle and that wouldn't be possible if he didn't at least have some wits about him, and if he was going to do stupid things like ignore medical advice which leads to infection I'm sure he would have died by now, surely that can't have been the first time he was wounded. Also, Mirri has a clear motive to poison Drogo.

No, I don't think so. I'm not surprised that Drogo did not care for Mirri's medical advice, but I was a bit surprised that there was no one but Mirri to attend to a prestigious khal who is gifted palaces and such left and right. If Mirri had poisoned Khal Drogo, I only have praise for her! Unlike Rhaego's case, it was not a debatable situation. Drogo had it coming!

On 12/11/2022 at 11:10 PM, Craving Peaches said:

Rape, Murder, Attempted Murder, Treason, Incest, Assault...

Anything else?

are we holding a trial?

4 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

The comparison was to illustrate that Daenerys is a good person who hasn't done anything bad which is not true.

 

And Cersei may have done worse but not by a huge margin (I am pretty sure MOST of the slavers she crusified were not guilty),, so it's a poor comparison.

Read that again. You missed so many points in my post. I read a couple of your posts after that one, so I will answer all of them here. Just to be clear! 

the point I was trying to make in that post was solely about CERSEI. the comparison between her and Tywin and Daenerys does not mean I took up a ruler measuring if Cersei's as bad as Tywin (in Bloody Mummers episode no less!) or that Daenerys is an angel Cersei can never hope to be like. 

you started this thread basically claiming that Cersei was an innocent girl put in a terrible situation and forced to make terrible choices. you claimed the hatred towards Cersei is unjustified firstly because of her background and then because she is not in some 25 most evil characters list and such. that's the gist of it. 

In my first post, I explained why the hatred towards Cersei is more intense than someone like Gregor Clegane. and that it doesn't even matter whether she is the worst to be the most hated. obviously, you ignored that post, and from what I've skimmed through, the posts like it. never mind. then you went on emphasizing again and again and again that Cersei's backstory should count toward something. when others rightly pointed out that lowborn characters had worse backgrounds, you dismissed that too. so, in the post you clearly did not understand, I first pointed out that people like Bloody Mummers may in part be the product of rulers like Tywin , Cersei, and Roose. I don't know why you said Cersei was not involved in Tywin's campaign as that was just an example. You see, I was merely pointing out how Cersei's acts would have a bigger effect than the Goat's. If you can't see what I mean, then let's take a look at Cersei's Dwarf Hunt. god knows how many people hunted down innocent dwarfs or in some cases, children, just to have a head delivered to Cersei. In this scenario, these criminals are like Bloody Mummers, Cersei is like Tywin who not only has created a situation where they can commit murder without punishment but are also encouraged. so there's that. 

now we get to the Daenerys point of the post, which, again, you missed completely! Since you were reluctant to accept any comparison with lowborn characters, I thought a comparison with Daenerys, who may have very deliberately been placed in a similar situation by the author might help. Daenerys was in a similar situation with Cersei, a touch worse even. so much that her only family member did the opposite of making her feel safe. at least Cersei had Jaimie her entire life. the point is not that Daenerys is sinless. But it is that in a worse situation, she made better choices than Cersei. (If you'd like we can break down all these choices, but that needs another thread. ) therefore, Cersei's "tragic" background not only doesn't justify her actions but can hardly be so much as an excuse. Daenerys is simply the literal proof that it is possible to make different choices. Cersei tried to make the world an even worse place when she came to power as queen regent; Daenerys tried to make it better with an epiphany that king and queen's job is to bring justice. if you deny this, all I can suggest is to reread the books.

Oh, and the issue of Cersei's love for her children that you've continuously noted in this thread. honestly, give me a passage, sentence, whatever in the book that we can conclude Cersei is motivated by love for her children. From what I read her biggest motivations are greed and lust for power and, more importantly, attention. her love for her children ends with her love for a part of herself. she is even emotionally extremely abusive towards Tommen, and instead of educating him for survival (which you claim to be her goal), thinks it's finally her chance and uses him for her own selfish ambitions. 

35 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I will not be happy if it happens. It conflicts with Aegon's actions in Fire and Blood and there is a complete lack of foreshadowing for it in the books. It will stand out to me as a blatant retcon and undermine my ability to immerse myself in the story. I do not feel there is any need for it and it would be silly. And of course people will then start claiming that Aegon's Dornish genocide was justified/necessary and that anyone who opposes the great Targaryan dynasty is a traitor to humanity and all that...

I can't say I disagree.

The problem is "Aegon's prophecy" is a bit of a goofy theory, claiming that Aegon knew precisely what would happen and had exactly the correct conclusions as to what to do! As we've seen in the books, prophecies/dreams are vague on their own, then there is the perception of them! It is almost impossible that Aegon would get all the right answers!  However, I do think the books give enough vagueness that Aegon can potentially have a dream or prophecy driving him, though not the famous "Aegon's prophecy" that HOTD used. In my opinion, that is the three-headed dragon prophecy. The thing is, Aegon was involved in Essosi affairs before his sudden and ambitious conquest.  he also married both his sisters ;and during the conquest and afterward treated them as equals. all despite the fact that no Targaryen lord after Aenar had more than one wife. then he took up the three-headed dragon sigil. and it could be only a sigil, if Rhaegar and Aemon hadn't seen more to it. whatever reason Rgaegar and Aemon had to think three is a sacred number when it comes to the dragons, Aegon and his sisters must have had the same notion. my best guess is some sort of prophecy or dream.

41 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

OK, I agree. Being more hated doesn't equate being more evil. Let's end the discussion.

Cersei might be a noble, but outside of Biter who literally had his tongue cut off and was forced to fight against dogs with his bare teeth, Cersei is still more tragic than all of these guys. And for the record, this is also the reason why Biter isn't listed as a Complete Monster while Rorge who did this to him is. None of the other three:

- Had Tywin Lannister as a father.

- Lost their mothers at a very young age.

- Received a prophecy at the age of 10 that all their children would die which haunts them for the rest of their lives and which turns them into paranoics who mistrust everyone and try to do anything to prevent it. We see from her own thoughts how much this prophecy has affected her psyche and how she fears in constant fear and is the main reason why she hates Tyrion so much, so I really don't understand why so many people dismiss this as a factor.

 - Were in an abusive marriage where they were raped. We also see how much it has traumatized her in her own thoughts when it's shown that she feels weak and wants to be in control in large part due to the experience of being raped.

 - Had to fear that they and their entire families would be executed because of the sexist Westerosi laws.

 These guys you mentioned only have the excuse that they are lowborn.

Being lowborn is not an excuse, just like having a tragic backstory in noble life is not an excuse. The lowborn villains not only have more limitations and fewer choices, but they are also pretty much the result of people like Cersei and Tywin being in charge, who, instead of mitigating the crime rate in their territory, employ people like the Bloody Mummers—enabling them in do so and frankly creating a demand in the market! Would the bloody mummers even become a "company" famed for their cruelty if influential people like Tywin did not need their services? Would Ramsey Bolton be just as evil if his father didn't find messing with him by sending Reek as his babysitter amusing?! Probably not.... but do these facts excuse the crimes of the Goat or Ramsay? No. In the same way, Cersei's upbringing and issues merely explain why she turned out the way she is; it does not justify her crimes, whether you think she had it worse than Ramsay, Goat, or Rorge. 

Then there's the matter of CHOICES. Pretending that Cersei had no choice in her crimes is extraordinarily absurd and sexist (as Craving Peaches aptly said). A great comparison in this regard is with Daenerys:

• Cersei suffered from Tywin, Daenerys suffered from Viserys
• Cersei lost  her mother as a child, and Daenerys lost both her parents
• Cersei had a brother who cared about her, and Daenerys had Viserys, for god's sake
• Cersei received a scary prophecy as a teenager; Daenerys fucking sees the prophecies in her dreams as a teenager
• Cersei was married as a pawn to a brute of a husband, and so was Daenerys
• Cersei was raped, and so was Daenerys
• on top of that, Daenerys also experienced poverty

by the end, you don't see the two women making the same choices, committing the same atrocities; doesn't that tell you something?

On 4/4/2023 at 9:40 PM, boltons are sick said:

For those of you who don't know, the Complete Monster (also known as Pure Evil) is a trope created by TV Tropes, so they can categorize villainous characters who are exceptionally heinous by the standards of the story, have no redeeming qualities and are completely unsympathetic.

Neither of the two versions of Cersei is considered a Complete Monster due to her many redeeming qualities, excuses for her actions and being played heavily for sympathy by the story.

Most of her actions are just motivated by a desire to keep her family safe and she is not morally worse than characters like Jaime or Tyrion who are liked by the fandom.

You can read more about the criteria of what constitutes a Complete Monster here

Below are the entries from TV Tropes of all 25 characters from the franchise (this includes the TV show and video games) who have been approved as Complete Monsters:

Book Continuity

Main series 

• King Joffrey I Baratheon of King's Landing, despite his young age, stands out as one of the vilest characters in the series. While always shown to have a darker side, Joffrey finally crosses the line when he has Lord Eddard "Ned" Stark executed, ensuring that the war with the Northerners would never reach a peaceful conclusion. Joffrey not only does this in front of Ned's daughter, Sansa, Joffrey's own fiancée, he then forces her to look at the decapitated heads of her father and household afterwards. This is followed by a long period of Domestic Abuse during which Joffrey has her regularly beaten by his Kingsguard and threatens to rape her even after she marries his uncle, Tyrion Lannister. As king, Joffrey revels in his power over life and death, and his reign is filled with all manner of pointless cruelties, his crimes including: having a minstrel whose song offended him choose between losing his fingers or his tongue; attempting to have a drunken knight drowned in a cask of wine; firing on starving peasants with his crossbow; ordering his bodyguard to cut through a crowd of peasants to get at one of them who threw manure at him; nailing antlers to the heads of sympathizers to his uncle and rival for the Iron Throne, Stannis, and firing them from trebuchets as entertainment during the Battle of the Blackwater; and attempting to convince his grandfather to execute everyone who fought against him, regardless of whether or not they surrendered. A budding psychopath who believes being the king gives him the right to do whatever he likes, Joffrey's sadism is so great that he is noted to be well on his way to surpassing his predecessor as the next Mad King of the Seven Kingdoms.

• Ser Gregor Clegane, aka "the Mountain that Rides", is a sadist who serves House Lannister and one of the most feared men in Westeros, rumored to have murdered his sister, father, and two wives. When he was 12, he burned half of his brother Sandor's face when the latter played with one of his toys. At 17, he dashed the infant Prince Aegon's head against a wall, then raped and murdered the latter's mother, Princess Elia. While at a tournament, Gregor murders one of his opponents, then tries to kill another and Sandor after losing a joust. Following the tournament, he and his men gang-rape an innkeeper's daughter. Unleashed on the Riverlands, Gregor and his men rape and murder anyone who falls into their hands. At one point, for ten days, Gregor picks one person each day from a group of villagers to torture for information. After one villager volunteers to save her daughter, Gregor has the daughter tortured the next day to make sure the mother didn't leave anything out. He tortures Vargo Hoat, including cutting strips of flesh from Hoat and feeding them to him, before letting Hoat die. During a duel with Oberyn Martell, Princess Elia's brother, who asserts his responsibility for the murder of his sister and her children to him, Gregor's only concern is that Oberyn got the order of events wrong, correcting him before brutally crushing Oberyn's skull.

• Ramsay Snow, the Bastard of Bolton, stands out as one of the most savage and depraved men in Westeros. Suspected of murdering his good-hearted, trueborn brother, Ramsay first comes to prominence after he forces Lady Hornwood to marry him to gain her lands. Having already starved her to death, Ramsay avoids death at the hands of Winterfell soldiers by impersonating his servant, Reek, then sending his "friend" to die in his place. When Theon Greyjoy takes over Winterfell, the imprisoned Ramsay allies himself with Greyjoy and acts as a corruptive influence, ultimately being the one to convince Theon to cross the line by murdering two little boys to pass them off as Bran and Rickon Stark. Gathering his own forces, Ramsay slaughters Ser Rodrik's Northerner soldiers, then betrays and captures Theon before ordering his men to raze Winterfell and slaughter everyone inside. One of Ramsay's favorite past-times is flaying people alive and he's done this many times, from the people he tortures, to the girls he hunts for fun that give him bad sport, to the surrendering Ironborn forces of Moat Cailin after Ramsay promised them mercy. Ramsay is also responsible for physically and mentally torturing Theon Greyjoy to condition him into a pathetic, insane wretch who believes himself the new Reek. Taking an Arya Stark impersonator as his wife to maintain Bolton control of the North, Ramsay abuses her constantly, despite her usefulness, even forcing Theon to participate in her wedding night bedding. A half-feral beast of a man, Ramsay lives to satisfy his sadistic urges and is so pointlessly and moronically cruel that even his own sociopathic father has to hold himself back from killing him.

• Craster is a wicked, hedonistic Wildling and uneasy ally of the Night's Watch. Keeping a harem of abused women, Craster rapes them in his isolated keep beyond the Wall, even assaulting any female children born to his "wives" from a prepubescent age. Any male children born are left as sacrifices to the Others, Craster desiring nothing more than a life to enjoy casually raping the women in his keep free of consequence.

• Rorge is a Serial Rapist and Serial Killer—especially of children—and the worst of the Brave Companions, his cruelty even exceeding their leader, Vargo Hoat. Freed along with his companion Biter, Rorge signs on with the "Bloody Mummers" after Arya Stark saves him from certain death, to which he responds by threatening to sodomize her with her own wooden sword. After the Brave Companions capture Jaime and Brienne, Rorge attempts to rape Brienne and threatens to mutilate her face if she screams. After Hoat's death, Rorge leads a band of brigands on the raid on Saltpans, resulting in the massacre of nearly the entire town. Rorge personally kills 20 men and rapes a 12-year-old girl, mutilating her then giving the girl to his men to mutilate her further. Upon encountering Brienne again, Rorge expresses a desire to cut off her legs and have her watch him rape a 10-year-old girl—with the latter's own crossbow. Additional material indicates that he is also the reason why Biter is the way he is—finding an orphan boy, Rorge removed his tongue, filed his teeth, and made him fight dogs with only his new fangs.

• Euron Greyjoy, captain of the Silence, is the evilest of the Ironborn and perhaps the most wicked man to ever raise a sail. Having murdered his elder brother as a child, he later murdered the infant Robin while molesting his brothers Aeron and Urrigon. Scorning all taboos and gods alike, Euron was later exiled by his brother Balon and took to reaving and murdering all across the world. Killing and raping countless innocents, Euron has Balon murdered and returns to claim the Seastone Chair, killing all who object in sadistically inventive ways. Capturing his brother Aeron, Euron subjects him to nightmarish psychological torture while having the Shield Islands sacked and their nobles raped and murdered. Taking his pregnant mistress Falia Flowers, Euron removes her tongue to be lashed to the prow with Aeron and numerous other holy men and warlocks whom he has tortured, with the intent to use them as a sacrifice in an upcoming battle. Planning on nothing less than to rise as a new god from the graves and charnel pits, Euron plots the apocalypse to reshape himself into something new and terrible.

The World of Ice & Fire; Archmaester Gyldayn's Histories; Fire & Blood

• House Targaryen:

  • King Maegor I Targaryen, aka "Maegor the Cruel", usurped the throne from his nephew and promptly decapitated the one Archmaester who protested. As king, Maegor turned to brutal tactics to suppress the Faith of the Seven, even riding on his dragon Balerion to burn down a Sept with all worshippers inside, using archers to pick off stragglers. Maegor proceeded to commit massacre after massacre, even passing off the skulls of poor smallfolk in the wrong place at the wrong time as members of the Faith's warriors. Following the capture of Wat the Hewer, a leader of the Poor Fellows, Maegor had his limbs cut off. Worse still was Maegor's attitudes towards family: Maegor killed his own nephew in combat, and then had his second nephew captured and tortured to death. When one of his wives gave birth to a "stillborn monstrosity," Maegor had her, everyone at the birth, and her entire family executed. Obsessed with having an heir, Maegor forcibly married three women, including his own niece. After having the Red Keep constructed, Maegor also had the builders massacred to keep its secrets to himself.

  • Queen Tyanna of the Tower is the third wife of Maegor the Cruel. A former Pentoshi courtesan rumored to dabble in alchemy and sorcery, Tyanna served as Maegor's chief spy, plotting the deaths of thousands for Maegor. When Maegor's nephews rebelled, Tyanna personally tortured Prince Viserys for nine days before he expired, with many, many more innocents dying in agony at her hands. Tyanna would poison Maegor's other wives to ensure they birthed only stillborn monstrosities, including Queen Alys Harroway, who Tyanna herself tortured to death while dozens of Alys's suspected lovers died, along with Alys's entire House. Justly feared and despised during Maegor's reign, Tyanna was one of the few who could rival her husband for wickedness and sadism.

• Sers "Hard" Hugh Hammer and Ulf (the) White, aka "The Betrayers", are dragon tamers descending from Targaryen bastards recruited by Queen Rhaenrya I Targaryen. Defecting to her rival-brother King Aegon II's side, Hugh and Ulf attack Tumbleton, scorching the town with their dragons and killing thousands in the burning and many more drowning in the river as they try to flee. Having Tumbleton's gates opened to sack it, women—and girls as young as eight—are raped, babies are impaled on spears, and Ulf personally makes a point of raping three maidens per night, feeding those who fail to satisfy him to his dragon. While Ulf demands Highgarden for his services, Hugh plans to depose Aegon and take the throne himself with his dragon, nailing horseshoes to the head of one man who angrily knocks off Hugh's self-made crown.

• The Ironborn loved to Rape, Pillage, and Burn:

  • House Greyjoy: Dalton Greyjoy, one of the earlier Greyjoys, aka the "Red Kraken" and Lord-Reaper of Pyke during the Dance of the Dragons, began his reaving when he was only a boy. At the age of 12, Dalton began killing men and taking salt-wives for his own, with numerous successful raids behind him. During the Dance, Dalton indulged his bloodlust by raiding up and down the west coast, sacking cities and taking hundreds of women as salt-wives while quickly tiring of women and passing others to his brothers if he did not find them attractive enough. Attacking even noble houses and plotting to sack and conquer even pillars of Westeros such as Oldtown, Dalton was only stopped after one such salt-wife, known as Tess, opened his throat in revenge for her rape as he slept.

  • House Hoare: King Qhored I Hoare, aka "Qhored the Cruel", was a vicious Ironborn ruler who had thousands of women captured and raped. Brutally killing one subject's sons for his being late in paying him tribute, Qhored also ordered the sacking of Oldtown, his warring and raiding plaguing the continent for three-quarters of a century.

• Yi Ti/YiTish Mythology: The Bloodstone Emperor is the jealous second son of the semi-divine Opal Emperor. Murdering his own older sister, the Amethyst Empress, to take power over the paradisaical Great Empire of the Dawn, the Bloodstone Emperor begins worshipping a black stone and marked his rule with mass murder and enslavement, feasting on the flesh of man, conducting mass torture and practicing dark magic. So atrocious is the mass sin at the tyrant's hands that the benevolent Goddess, the Maiden-Made-of-Light and ancestor to the Bloodstone Emperor himself, leaves the world in peril to eradicate the latter's empire, electing to risk the death of all rather than have it suffer under his monstrous excesses.

Other Continuities

Game of Thrones & Histories & Lore

• King Joffrey I Baratheon graduates from a spoiled prince to a "vicious idiot" of a ruler following the death of his supposed father Robert. Having once tried to kill his fiancée Sansa Stark's younger sister and lowborn friend for standing up to him, Joffrey swiftly orders the execution of Eddard Stark, Lord of the North and father to Sansa, even knowing it will mean war. Throwing aside all pretense of charm, Joffrey also begins regularly tormenting his captive bride-to-be, forcing Sansa to gaze at the severed head of her father while having his Kingsguard beat her at his leisure. A whimsical sadist, Joffrey responds to a bard's taunting song by ordering him mutilated and when his rule drives starving peasants into accosting him, orders them all be put to death in a bloody riot. Lusting at the mere thought of violence, Joffrey forces one prostitute bought for him to beat another, later restraining and shooting the survivor to death for his own amusement. Not even family is safe from his insanity, with Joffrey threatening to kill his mother, ordering his uncle assassinated, and having all of Robert's bastard children—including babies—murdered to secure his false claim to the throne. A blossoming teenage psychopath even without the years of most of Westeros's worst behind him, Joffrey's short rule is marked by such cruelty he is said to have possibly grown to surpass the Mad King Aerys II Targaryen for sheer depravity.

• Petyr Baelish, aka "Littlefinger", is a manipulative, self-serving man who believes that "chaos is a ladder", and orchestrates a variety of Westeros's misfortunes to climb to the top. Owning and operating a brothel whose workers he abuses, mistreats, and even mutilates to suit his clients' desires, Baelish callously has any who cross him sent off to be butchered, notably handing off Ros to be tortured to death by Joffrey Baratheon. Out of both ambition and a petty desire to possess the hand of Catelyn Stark, Baelish kick-starts the War of the Five Kings by seducing Lysa Arryn into murdering her husband while Baelish stages an assassination attempt on Catelyn's crippled son, turns kingdoms against one another, and personally arranges the death of Catelyn's current husband Eddard "Ned" Stark and many of his men. Profiting off the massive, bloody war that costs thousands of lives across Westeros, Baelish murders Lysa and shifts his lustful attentions from Catelyn to her young daughter Sansa, psychologically abusing the girl before sending her off to be raped and tortured so as to later "save" her from her fate and convince her to team with him in wiping out her own family. His scheming leading to unfathomable death and devastation through the kingdoms and empowering monsters like Joffrey and Ramsay Bolton/Snow, Baelish is willing to doom countless lives—even those of his apparent loved ones—so long as it brought himself good fortune, proudly boastful that the climb to power for power's sake is the only thing that truly matters to him.

• Ser Gregor Clegane, "the Mountain that Rides" of House Clegane, is Westeros's most dreaded knight, in service to Lord Tywin Lannister. An ill-tempered sadist since childhood, Gregor once burned his brother Sandor's face for playing with his toy to the point of gruesome disfiguring. When Gregor later loses a jousting match in a tournament, he wrathfully decapitates his own horse before storming the crowd, trying to kill the man who beat him and any who stand in his way. Occupying Harrenhal fortress under Tywin, Gregor has his sadistic minion the Tickler torture prisoners to death for information and after losing Harrenhal, orders the hundreds of remaining captives be put to death. Recruited to fight for the crown in Tyrion's Trial by Combat, Gregor is found perfecting his sword skills by violently butchering more prisoners in one-sided "duels". Battling Prince Oberyn Martell, Oberyn tries to force Gregor to confess to having raped and murdered his sister Elia, as well as her children, something Gregor outright boasts of as he shoves his thumbs through the prince's eyes before squeezing his head until it explodes.

• Lord Walder Frey, head of House Frey, after a few episodes of pretension as nothing but a doddering old pervert, proves his true evil when he conceives of the Red Wedding. For the sake of getting back at Lord Robb Stark for not honoring his wedding vow, Frey has Robb, his pregnant wife, his mother, hundreds of his bannermen, and even Robb's direwolf Grey Wind massacred in one of the most devastating acts of treachery Westeros ever sees. When his wife is taken hostage, Walder throws her away and remarks "I'll find another." Spending the rest of his life rubbing his hands over the power he backstabbed his way into, Lord Walder violates every single value even the cutthroat world of Westeros upholds.

• Craster, a vicious Wildling and shaky Night's Watch ally, is given a self-righteous demeanor. Abusing the women of his isolated keep, Craster regularly rapes them, even keeping any girls born as a result to add to his dozens of victims, while leaving any infant boys born to be taken by the White Walkers. Incensed by the mere implication of debauchery, Craster declares himself a "godly man" and threatens to kill any of the Night's Watch brothers who dare question his way of life.

• Ramsay Bolton/Snow, the bastard son of Lord Roose Bolton and the most vicious member of House Bolton, is a sadist with a knack for torture and flaying others alive. After capturing Winterfell, Ramsay proceeded to play twisted games with the captive Theon Greyjoy, pretending to be an Ironborn agent who comes to save Theon—killing his own men to keep up the ruse—and culminating in Ramsay bringing Theon to the Dreadfort and subjecting him to prolonged, hideous torture, including flaying bits of him and castrating him. All that remains of Theon afterwards is a broken, obedient shell whom Ramsay dubs "Reek." In his spare time, Ramsay and his equally psychotic lover Myranda release girls into the woods to hunt them for sport, also using the girls to feed Ramsay's savage hounds. When Ramsay makes Theon negotiate a surrender with other Ironborn, Ramsay guarantees their safety, only to have them flayed alive and displayed as gruesome trophies. After marrying Sansa Stark, Ramsay rapes her on the wedding night and continues to sexually and physically abuse her throughout the rest of the marriage. Ramsay cements his rule over his hold by murdering Roose and having his hounds eat his infant brother and stepmother. When he finally engages the Northern armies, Ramsay is apathetic to the death of his own men and shoots the preteen Rickon Stark dead—moments before he reaches Jon Snow. With few matching his pointless savagery, Ramsay Snow exemplified every negative stereotype about bastards in Westeros.

• Karl Tanner is a former assassin and sworn brother of the Night's Watch. Taking over Craster's Keep in a mutiny, Karl has his Lord Commander Jeor Mormont killed to drink wine from his skull while allowing his men to rape and abuse Craster's daughter-wives as they see fit. Having the only male child left to the cold, when Bran Stark and his group arrive Karl plans to torment and kill them all, even trying to force himself on the teenage Meera while forcing her brother to watch.

• King Aerys II Targaryen, aka the Mad King, grew into a paranoid pyromaniac and one of the worst of his family's dynasty. Terrified of any threats to his power, Aerys begins murdering or torturing those who incense him, having one man's tongue torn out for making a joke. Becoming obsessed with the destructive wildfire, Aerys uses it to burn entire cities when he deems them to house traitors, even inviting a Northern lord to the capital before burning him alive when Aerys's son is accused of kidnapping the lord's daughter. His tyranny causing a massive rebellion, Aerys goes to war hoping to exterminate all Houses who oppose him, and eventually plans to burn all of King's Landing and his own half-a-million citizens within to kill his attacking enemies.

• Euron Greyjoy was banished from the Iron Islands after having burned the Lannisport fleet. Following the "Old Way" on the high seas, Euron took slaves by the thousands to trade or for sex, having any sailors who fought back tortured to death. At one point, Euron tore the tongues out of his own entire crew for interrupting his thoughts, despite them just having saved his life. Returning to murder his brother Balon and claim the Salt Throne, Euron joins Queen Cersei Lannister in a war to conquer Westeros, later having a defeated enemy fleet mutilated while planning to spread his pillaging worldwide.

• King Maegor I Targaryen, aka "Maegor the Cruel", is one of the most brutal rulers to ever sit on the Iron Throne. Usurping his own nephew and then killing him in battle, Maegor would go on to usher in a reign of callous tyranny. His many atrocities include executing anyone who expresses an opinion he doesn't like; burning down a Sept with many people inside; starting a campaign across the Riverlands, the Westerlands, and the Reach which claims the lives of thousands of innocent people for him to collect their skulls and pass off as members of the Faith Militant; forcibly marrying three women who had been widowed because of the wars he had waged; executing his second wife and every single member of her family when she gives birth to a deformed and stillborn baby; slaughtering all the builders who had constructed the Red Keep to keep its secret passages for himself and, allegedly, having a hidden dungeon to brutally torture prisoners. Maegor's actions ravage the realm so badly, that his cruelty would be remembered even hundreds of years after his death.

Video Games

• 2012 game: Valarr Hill, bastard brother to Alester Sarwyck of Riverspring, is the main villain of the game. A member of Queen Cersei's guard hunting for the pregnant mother of one of King Robert's bastards named Jeyne, Valarr frames his and Alester's younger brother for the death of their father and later tries to have him assassinated. Revealed as the man who killed hero Mors's family on Lord Tywin's orders, Valarr also raped Mors's daughter, a fact he taunts him about when they meet in trial by combat. Valarr intends to force his own half-sister into marriage and rape her, before cheating in the duel by using dark magic to kill Mors and having all the witnesses massacred before murdering his and Alester's sister; hunting down Jeyne, killing her; and having the lord defending her and his men massacred. Valarr breaks every taboo Westeros has, from kinslaying, rape, violating guest right and more, caring for nothing but his own ascent to further heights.

• Telltale Games Series: Ramsay Snow is the representative in the North for the as-yet-unseen Roose Bolton, orchestrating the conflict between the Forresters and Whitehills for profit and enjoyment. Ramsay is introduced while flaying a man alive for recreation, lamenting that the result is "not [his] best work". After entering the Forresters' estate by force, he tries to take Talia hostage with clear lascivious intent before pragmatically settling on her brother instead, and murders the teenage Ethan on a whim. He later returns to "break" Rodrik by forcing him to witness his torture (and eventual murder) of Rodrik's friend Arthur. He later pits the Forresters and Whitehills against each other in a war of annihilation, passing up potential profit for the sake of a bloody spectacle. A sadist who lives only to relish the suffering he inflicts on others, Ramsay is feared and loathed throughout the North.

In other words, the most evil characters from the books are Joffrey, Gregor, Ramsay, Rorge, Craster, Euron, Maegor, Tyanna, Dalton Greyjoy, Qhored Hoare, the two Betrayers (Hugh and Ulf) and the Bloodstone Emperor.

The most evil from the TV series and the Histories & Lore animated videos (which are part of the TV show canon) are Joffrey, Gregor, Ramsay, Walder, Craster, Euron. Karl Tanner, Aerys, Littlefinger and Maegor.

The most evil from video games are Valarr Hill and Ramsay (Telltale version).

As you can see, no version is of Cersei is listed among the most evil characters of the franchise because she simply doesn't meet the criteria. This means that her evil is really exaggerated by the whole fandom and she gets far more hatred than she deserves for some reason even though she has many redeeming qualities and excuses for her actions. So, why is she so hated by the fandom even though she was intended to be sympathetic?

First of all, Cersei hardly has any redeemable qualities. Cersei is not only selfish, cruel, manipulative, and petty, but she also fails to be a competent antagonist, which makes each of her acts even more irritating. As for the Evil List, it simply does not matter. Characters don't invoke feelings in the readers because of their morality and such; they invoke feelings due to their impact. Cersei might be a better person than Gregor Clegane; however, while Gregor's worst cruelties are only hearsay and are towards secondary characters in the books, Cersei's are alive on the page and are directed towards the protagonists. This is actually true in RL too. You don't hate some murderer you see on the news with the same intensity you hate an abusive or even cheating spouse. 

2 hours ago, Groo said:

Two heirs to the throne from two different mothers? How many times has that been a problem in Targaryen history? It isn't automatically a problem which is why I said potentially conflicting.

First of all, what two heirs?! Lyanna did not have the child yet; the consensus is that Rhaegar wanted a daughter.  Whether Lyanna's child was ever going to be in the line of succession or not, we can be sure he would be younger than Aegon. I assume the trouble with Two heirs would only arise if the boys were each being raised as Rhaegar's heir in different households learning to hate each other. Besides, if anyone had thought about the problem of two heirs, they would advise Rhaegar not to sire a child or at least wouldn't help him in his very noble endeavors in the first place! 

2 hours ago, Groo said:

On a side note, if Ashara Dayne is going to all this trouble to protect Elia Martell's child, then why has she never told the other Martells about it?

There are a couple of possibilities:

1. Whatever Elia and/or Rhaegar had planned with Varys had not extended to the Martells.

2. the more plausible one: Ned gave her the option he gave to Cersei

or both of those things.

6 hours ago, Groo said:

 

Ned, party of 9! Your duel is ready. If you'll come this way, please, we have a lovely, secluded tower for you.

6 hours ago, Groo said:

 

I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea that the Dayne's would both know about Lyanna's child and be hiding Aegon. That's two big and potentially conflicting secrets to be keeping. They could exercise a lot of power just be deciding which secret(s) to tell, when to tell them, and to whom.

why conflicting?! 

theory: 

the Kingsgaurd were not protecting Lyanna and her unborn child but were supposed to distract Ned and co. from Ashara and her princess's child she had with her. 

we've got some facts that we do not know what to make of:

• Daynes are ok with Ned, despite believing Ned's directly associated with the death of 2 of their siblings. so much so that they name their heir after him.
• after Lyanna's death, they find Ned holding her hand, even though Ned had stated that only two (he and Howland) left the tower.
• somehow, Ned and only 6 high-born companions find a secret watchtower where they face only three men. This seems like they had an appointment or something.
• Kingsgaurd believe they are upholding their duty to the king and House Targaryen. protecting the mistress of the dead crown prince and his unborn prince or princess from the said woman's brother in a hopeless affair, being outnumbered. this won't just do. especially when a pregnant queen and her son are in danger in Dragonstone.
• Ashara Dayne's death is repeated throughout the story, emphasizing her corpse never being found. 
• the Tower is in such a poor state that Ned and Howland can tear it down.
• Lyanna's somewhere that can be attended to after death, and Ned can take her bones home. Unlike that of his companions, all to Barbrey's dismay. 
• Jon Snow's wet nurse had been a loyal servant to Starfall.
• a mysterious, attractive woman with roughly the right age and birthing marks appears alongside a boy claiming to be Aegon Targaryen . all while prickly Jon Connington respects and trusts her, the way he doesn't trust someone like Haldon who's a hired or Varys who's a foreigner. 

Conclusion:  I think Ashara Dayne had been in on Varys and Elia's scheme to smuggle Aegon out. she must have been on her way to Starfall , while Ned  and his army were on the search for Lyanna . having communicated with Kingsgaurd , they decide to meet with Ned to stall him from going to Starfall where Lyanna would be, buying Ashara enough time to get there and hide Aegon. Ned and Kingsgaurd fight, and maybe by the end, Arthur trusts Ned with one or two of his secrets. Ned and Howland take some guards and go to Starfall afterward. Ned sees Lyanna die , promises her whatever, and lets the silent sisters or maester in Starfall attend to her corpse. he meets with lady Ashara and the lord/lady of Starfall who would know everything his/her siblings have done. gives them their sword back , apologizes for killing Arthur, claiming that he died a hero and all that noble stuff. in return for their secrecy about Lyanna's child, he promises them to cover for Ashara (whether he knows about Aegon or not), doesn't let Arthur's name sully (which would also especially work if Arthur had been Lyanna's lover, but works all the same if he was just loyal to Rhaegar's orders), and more importantly promises them that house Dayne would not be associated with Lyanna's whereabouts during the rebellion and their part in Rhaegar's plans is hidden. Something that keeps Daynes from the same fate as Darrys or Conningtons, who suffer under Robert's wrath caused by association with Rhaegar, leaving Daynes still rich and respected.  Ashara takes Aegon and leaves for Essos , she'll eventually meet with Jon Connington, who, despite his clear mistrust of Varys, believes Aegon's identity because of Ashara, who would naturally be a close acquaintance knowing they both served at Dragonstone. 

Or something close enough to this.

Just now, Frey family reunion said:

Yea, that’s the tower of Bethlehem theory.  At least that’s what I call it.  The thing that gives me pause is that she at least had to be there some time prior to the Battle of the Trident because Rhaegar refers to the location as the tower of joy.  So Rhaegar at least had to be aware of it before his death.  And then you have to question how long before Rhaegar’s death would he have been aware of the location?  Before he returned to King’s Landing, or after.

Then we have two weeks leading up to the Sack of King’s Landing.  Probably another two weeks for Eddard to travel to Storm’s End, and then the length of time it took for Eddard to find out about the whereabouts of the tower of joy and then travel there.  And if you look at the map, we’re talking about considerable distances.  So a time period of at least a month and a half probably bordering on two months, and if Rhaegar learned of it before he returned to King’s Landing, far longer.    So it appears it had to be a little more than a quick pit stop.

 

all the more reason that I think we should look into the possibility that Rhaegar's connection to the tower might have nothing to do with Lyanna! The possibilities are endless really. We know Rhaegar had Dornish friends and a Dornish wife, and had traveled to Dorne before (as Jon Con's pov states), all being reasons to end up in that tower long enough to name it(maybe in a song or something) and for the smallfolk to recount it.

Just now, Frey family reunion said:

I’ve questioned this as well.  The only “evidence” we have is through Eddard’s fever dream, and even that has a distinct cutaway between the battle at the tower of joy and Lyanna’s death bed.  GRRM also explicitly warned a reader that fever dreams shouldn’t always be taken too literally.

We know from Eddard’s memories that he encountered the three kingsguards at a location Rhaegar called the tower of joy.  We know from Eddard’s memories that he was at Lyanna’s side when she died.  What we don’t know from Eddard’s memories that the two events occurred at the same time and location.

The appendix does say that Lyanna died in the red mountains of Dorne.  But it just so happens that he place Eddard traveled to after the battle at the tower of joy, Starfall, also lies within those same mountains.  And that might explain Eddard’s true reason for taking such a perilous journey through enemy territory, that he was traveling to Lyanna.

 

yep. and I clearly agree with that. 

now I feel like copy-pasting a pet theory I posted in another thread is a good idea! 

The question is, was Lyanna, in fact, in that tower? If she was, was she there the whole time? ... considering everything that happened, even if Martells and/or Elia had been ok with Rhaegar taking a paramour or running off with Lyanna (which is one odd consensus among RL fans), they would rightfully be pissed at Lyanna and Rhaegar during and after the war. I doubt hiding in an abandoned watchtower with a pregnant woman in Manwoody territory is more manageable than hiding in a loyalist castle. 

7 hours ago, Crona said:

The Tower of Joy may be inspired by Joyous Gard in Arthurian legend, Lancelot (King Arthur's best knight ever and I think best friend?) had an affair with the queen Guinevere that was driving him nuts and they had run off to this tower.  I believe even Lancelot had died was buried there. While I don't think Arthur is Jon's father, could it be that Arthur was the father of Rhaenys?  Elia did have Rhaenys the same year she was married to Rhaegar. Could it be that Ned had promised to keep this a secret? Maybe Arthur killed himself because he felt guilt? He could be Aegon's father as well, and if he is and he knows Aegon is alive then yes I can also see why the Daynes would be happy with Ned keeping the secret. But Aegon looks like Rhaegar lol

The similarities between Arthur/Lancelot and Rhaegar/Arthur had been out there. That could be a mixture with the earlier versions of Arthurian legends, though, where Lancelot and Guinevere's love is only courtly love. That would make Arthur and Elia even more tragic. It is pretty doubtful that it would even matter that Daynes owe Ned anything if Rhaenys had indeed been Arthur's. She is dead, and so is the Targaryen dynasty at that point. Not that they could know for sure who had been the father. as for Aegon, whether Arthur had possessed Valyrian features or not, Jon Connington, who had known Arthur, Rhaegar, and Elia pretty well, believes Aegon is Rhaegar and Elia's. whatever that means!

I'm not a firm believer in the theory of Jon being Arthur's son, as usually, the straight answer works better, in this case, RLJ or, at the very least, NAJ! However, I like to entertain it as it would make Jon the next Sword of the Morning, and we won't have to question his lack of Targ magic.  

4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I like it! And I would much rather Lyanna was being cared for at Starfall, not abandoned in a ruined tower - though to be honest GRRM seems enjoy the tower scenario immensely, and I've no confidence he didn't just go with it.

thanks! me too, and yes, I too think it's more than possible that GRRM had left Lyanna in an abandoned tower and logic at the door. it's in aGoT after all, the same book where the Lady of warden of the North travels half a continent with just one knight; and queen's brother who is also heir to the West , travels with two soldiers thinking it befits his station!  

4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Still seems to me that Ned got more than he gave. If baby Jon had started to develop purple eyes, Ned would have to grit his teeth and play the Ashara card, dragging her reputation through the mud all over again, to serve his own family's purposes.

Perhaps. We should see it through Daynes' perspective. at that point; they have no idea what Robert might do. All that they know is that Rhaegar's innocent wife and daughter were brutally murdered. Surely Daynes would be in bigger trouble than Rhaegar's 3-year-old daughter, who's not even in the line of succession, whose biggest crime is being a dragon spawn. Add that Ashara's reputation was already tainted by that time, and she would leave anyway. Considering Barristan knows Ashara had a daughter specifically, I believe there's a massive possibility that Ashara had been back in Kingslanding after the birth, possibly before the Trident, so that courtiers might hear what happened. 

Then there's another possibility, however slim,  that makes Daynes owe Ned even more. If, besides all that's stated above, Arthur is Jon's father, it explains Daynes' attitude toward Ned. There's not much evidence for this one, perhaps only Jon's epiphany moment when he's dealing with an identity crisis until dawn when he sees Sword of the Morning in the south. This could also work well with some small details in the story. For example, we know Ned has often spoken to Jon of Robert as the Demon of the Trident, a God among princes, where he'd killed Rhaegar, which is somewhat insensitive if Rhaegar turns out to be Jon's father. Or the fact that Ned seems genuinely upset for killing Arthur Dayne and speaks highly of him, whose son he is raising, while he hasn't thought of Rhaegar for so long even though he's supposed to be raising his son, naturally thinking of the father and his attitudes and behaviors at times. 

2 hours ago, AryaRegina said:

I think an important piece to consider when wondering if Ned would kill Arthur dishonourably is Lyanna.
When his little sister, who has been missing for months, is finally found, and is (presumably, as the source is a dream) screaming for him and he's fighting her captors to try and get to her, and his friend is able to incapacitate one of them, do you believe he'd take the moment to let him get free because killing him then would be in bad form? Or is the sound of his sister's screams and the need to get to her more important than his honour in battle?

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.
"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.
-Eddard X, AGOT
 

I have no particular opinion on Arthur's death, but I do think the books have repeatedly shown that love is a powerful emotion, and can make people to things they otherwise wouldn't

I couldn't agree more, and I don't think we should rule out a dishonorable act on Ned's part at such a moment. however, this is a dream, a fever dream at that, and it doesn't seem to be a clear linear memory. so, it is well possible that Lyanna's memory and Kingsgaurd's memory are blended together in his dream. especially since we know Lyanna used to call him Ned, and she was weak and frightened in her last moments, possibly whispering more than screaming. 

Just now, three-eyed monkey said:

It's only the assumption that Arthur died at the tower that confuses the issue. I know 99% of the fandom believes this, and I suspect I won't change your mind but please, humor me for a moment. This is how I see it.

you're right; you don't change my mind. but you do make a fine case.

Wait a minute.... is this post chatGPT's answer?

How else can we scream that we are bored and need a new book?!:/ not coffee table books, picture books, calendrers, asoiaf encyclopedia, and not the 100th edition of Targaryen history! But winds of winter! That would keep us from EVIL threads

Just now, Craving Peaches said:

I like the story better if Nettles is just someone with no connections to any Targaryens. Goes to show they aren't as special as they claim.

But it's a magical fantasy. They are special. however, considering all the madness and suicides in their family, it's up to debate whether that's a curse or a blessing.

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

The Targaryen loyalist angle has got to be the key somehow - it's the only motivation we have for the Daynes, and especially for Arthur who is the truest knight and therefore obsessive. I think he's still a death before dishonour guy, but if Ned could promise him something important enough, Arthur might allow Ned to kill him before the dishonour of Rhaegar's enemies taking the tower. This handily explains why Ned isn't particularly proud of killing the famous Sword of the Morning.

So what could Ned promise? It obviously wasn't Jon, because loyalists would want Jon to be a prince in exile, fighting for the Targ restoration.

It must be something about Rhaegar's other son, Aegon. Howland and Ned don't know anything about the Pisswater Prince, but Arthur might - if Lemore is truly Ashara, then the Daynes have been hand-in-glove with Varys from the beginning.

There are a couple of things Ned might have done. He might have persuaded Robert not to send hired knives into Essos (but he never mentions this). He might have promised to keep Jon secret and safe, but raise him as a high lord (probably what Lyanna wanted anyway). There might even have been mention of the Promised Prince.

One thing he did do was allow the world to believe he dishonoured Ashara Dayne, and she killed herself for love of him. Very useful cover for Ashara/Lemore, but very bitter for Ned. He hates it, but only cracked down on the rumour at home in Winterfell. I think he was pushed.

There must be more.

very very close to a pet theory of mine: the Kingsgaurd were not protecting Lyanna and her unborn child but were supposed to distract Ned and co. from Ashara and her princess's child she had with her. 

we've got some facts that we do not know what to make of:

• Daynes are ok with Ned, despite believing Ned's directly associated with the death of 2 of their siblings. so much so that they name their heir after him.
• after Lyanna's death, they find Ned holding her hand, even though Ned had stated that only two (he and Howland) left the tower.
• somehow, Ned and only 6 high-born companions find a secret watchtower where they face only three men. This seems like they had an appointment or something.
• Kingsgaurd believe they are upholding their duty to the king and House Targaryen. protecting the mistress of the dead crown prince and his unborn prince or princess from the said woman's brother in a hopeless affair, being outnumbered. this won't just do. especially when a pregnant queen and her son are in danger in Dragonstone.
• Ashara Dayne's death is repeated throughout the story, emphasizing her corpse never being found. 
• the Tower is in such a poor state that Ned and Howland can tear it down.
• Lyanna's somewhere that can be attended to after death, and Ned can take her bones home. Unlike that of his companions, all to Barbrey's dismay. 
• Jon Snow's wet nurse had been a loyal servant to Starfall.
• a mysterious, attractive woman with roughly the right age and birthing marks appears alongside a boy claiming to be Aegon Targaryen . all while prickly Jon Connington respects and trusts her, the way he doesn't trust someone like Haldon who's a hired or Varys who's a foreigner. 

Conclusion:  I think Ashara Dayne had been in on Varys and Elia's scheme to smuggle Aegon out. she must have been on her way to Starfall , while Ned  and his army were on the search for Lyanna . having communicated with Kingsgaurd , they decide to meet with Ned to stall him from going to Starfall where Lyanna would be, buying Ashara enough time to get there and hide Aegon. Ned and Kingsgaurd fight, and maybe by the end, Arthur trusts Ned with one or two of his secrets. Ned and Howland take some guards and go to Starfall afterward. Ned sees Lyanna die , promises her whatever, and lets the silent sisters or maester in Starfall attend to her corpse. he meets with lady Ashara and the lord/lady of Starfall who would know everything his/her siblings have done. gives them their sword back , apologizes for killing Arthur, claiming that he died a hero and all that noble stuff. in return for their secrecy about Lyanna's child, he promises them to cover for Ashara (whether he knows about Aegon or not), doesn't let Arthur's name sully (which would also especially work if Arthur had been Lyanna's lover, but works all the same if he was just loyal to Rhaegar's orders), and more importantly promises them that house Dayne would not be associated with Lyanna's whereabouts during the rebellion and their part in Rhaegar's plans is hidden. Something that keeps Daynes from the same fate as Darrys or Conningtons, who suffer under Robert's wrath caused by association with Rhaegar, leaving Daynes still rich and respected.  Ashara takes Aegon and leaves for Essos , she'll eventually meet with Jon Connington, who, despite his clear mistrust of Varys, believes Aegon's identity because of Ashara, who would naturally be a close acquaintance knowing they both served at Dragonstone. 

Or something close enough to this.

4 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

You mean 3 more seasons. 4 seasons in total.

yeah

Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

I started reading ASOIAF close to a decade ago, and in that time I've watched the fandom go through a lot of different "phases." For those of you who have been reading these books since the 90s, you've seen far more. What are some ways the fandom has changed throughout the years? Here are some that I've noticed:

ooh , fun.

Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

• Tyrion: People went from loving the Imp to calling him a "grey character" to swinging so far in the other direction that a lot of people now unironically view him the way Tywin and Cersei do, as if we're just supposed to take all of that at face value. I think part of this was in reaction to his St. Tyrion TV persona.
  • At the same time, there have been many attempts over the years to lionize Cersei and to "ackshually" Jaime's redemption arc by claiming that he's just flat-out evil. Neither of them have been particularly successful as of yet.

yeah , well , Lannisters are pretty evil! lol . 

Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

• After S8 of GOT, Young Griff went from being seen as an extraneous character to one who was absolutely vital to the story.

I kinda got the opposite of this ever since I joined the forum (and started watching youtube fan videos before that). seems like the show has solidified the lack of importance in YG's character in the fandom.  

Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

• Thanks to GOT, MQD is a more widely-accepted theory. At the same time, Daenerys' fall from grace has also seemed to soften some of the criticism against her, which was always strong online. I think that part of the problem people had with Dany was that sense of cognitive dissonance: the story kept telling us she was was perfect (especially the show) even when it didn't feel true. She's more human now.

wait a minute, she is more human now? there was a time that Dany hard-core fans were even more faithful?! 

Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

• A lot of the fandom "titans" have fallen off the map. Some of them just gave up and quit (i.e. BryndenBFish), but overall I think most people just started to realize how silly it was to consider regular people who have never met GRRM "experts" on how his mind works.
• The fandom used to be obsessed with buzzwords like "nuance" and "subverting expectations." There's less of that now.

good

Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

• Cleganebowl went from being GET HYPE to "actually, that was kind of embarrassing. . . "

that was kinda embarrassing! 

Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

• ASOIAF was always criticized for its depictions of rape and, to a lesser extent, childbirth deaths. Now there's more criticism about child brides, age gaps, sexualization of characters, etc.
  • This has also made the fandom more serious overall, which has sucked the fun out of it a bit, unfortunately. Now if you want to ship Hot Pie and Old Nan, you have to include a 500-word essay about how fiction isn't real, depiction isn't endorsement, yada yada.

I know where this is coming from Bard . have we been hard on you about Sansan?

Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

• While GRRM is still a revered writer and creator, fewer people see him as a 4-D chess master with an encyclopedic knowledge of human history who has an elaborate multi-dimensional plan for the books and understands your subconscious better than you do.

wow! Do you call this few?! 

after thinking for a moment, I recalled we had more than popular threads criticizing GRRM . so that sounds about right

Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

• Believe it or not, there used to be a huge overlap between Dany and Sansa fans. 

ha!

I would've said eight episodes aren't enough. But they did manage to cramp 20 years of materials and, more importantly, character development into ten episodes, and it was largely ok.  Luke got all the character writing he needed for his death in two episodes; I suspect the same would happen with Jace and the rest. so, if only to keep the pacing the same as season 1 (as in every episode has a shock value moment, huge plot developments and major character deaths), I guess 8 episodes and 3 seasons in total makes sense. 

Just now, Curled Finger said:

Yah?  The whole thing is bogus story.  Too many holes.  Still, Reed did something Ned did not expect.  Eyebrow raises...this is Meera and Jojen's father, after all.  This feat of whatever transpired will be remarkable or horrifying, maybe both.  All I'm sure of is that Ned seems awed in the way regret and gratitude can both bring you to your knees sort of awed.  Not magic, not skill, but something loyal, horribly loyal maybe?  I'm not even sure what that could be I just expect it to be surprising.  Right on, what a cool thing to think about this evening.  Thanks for the inspiration, Egg! 

It's weird all over ... it is something that Ned wouldn't share for some reason. the easiest answer is that it's not honorable. But then you've got Daynes all appreciative towards Ned. so, even if it's dishonorable, then: a) they wouldn't know it b)for some reason, Daynes are more than ok with Ned killing their brother and being the reason for their sister's "suicide" .

while I suspect this part of the story may stay ambiguous even if George does finish the books, I hope it doesn't be something insulting to Dawn like it's the inability to cut ropes! and yes, I care about magical swords' reputations!