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Posts posted by EggBlue

  1. On 8/31/2023 at 5:51 PM, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

    And the costumes. HOTD wigs are horrific, we all know that. :rofl: The costumes though..some of them looked cheap (mainly young Rhaenyra's) but I'm obsessed with the designs. And I was so happy they included jewelry. Side note, they need to let Olivia's Alicent wear a different color. We know she's a TeamGeen gal, they don't need to make her entire wardrobe one color to remind us of that.

    My biggest pet peeve with HOTD are some inconsistencies with Rhaenyra and Alicent (and I'm talking older gals). One moment they're ruthless, decisive, and/or ambitious, and the next they're totally passive. But I did like the decision to change their relationship for the show though. And I hate what they've done to Criston, my lawd.

    I know the books are unclear about certain events that take place, but it would have been nice if the showrunners had been more decisive on how far certain characters will go for their own motives. It seemed like they were shy about ruthless or harmful actions being carried out by main characters, so they would immediately try to redeem the perpetrator so viewers could once again sympathize with them. But that's just the vibe I was getting. Also, there were certain scenes that I felt were clumsy, unnecessary, or perhaps even out of place.

    • Rhea Royce's death. Did the showrunners want us to believe Daemon killed her or not? Perhaps it was meant to be ambiguous and up for the viewer to decide, but all it did was get the Daemon fans to praise him for "mercy killing" her. Because I guess he went all that way just to stare at her for a few minutes.
    • Criston murdering Joffrey in front of everyone with zero consequences. (Wish I could pull something like that off.)
    • Rhaenys bursting through the floor of the dragonpit.
    • Laenor's fake death.
    • Rhaenyra's passiveness whilst Vaemond calls her a whore in court. Maybe so Daemon could have another cool moment.
    • Alicent crowning Aegon based off a misunderstanding.
    • Aemond accidentally killing Luke. (This one actually doesn't bother me that much, I just wanted a bloodthirsty Aemond.)
    • NO SUNFYRE???????? Aegon II and Sunfyre have an insanely strong connection and I'll be disappointed if they don't explore that.
    • Rape incident

    All in all, I wasn't crazy about the 1st season of HOTD, but I feel positive about future seasons. For now, I prefer the first 4 seasons of GoT over s1 of HOTD.

    I think the issue that irks me (and perhaps the others) about HOTD , isn't necessarily what they changed or their character choices that might differ from my interpretation of the book or the set-in-stone canon facts; rather it's that they're never bold about their choices in the show imo. which honestly leaves a confused vibe to the show and makes it more mediocre.

    there are deliberate "bomb"s in the show that lack the impact due to repetition. for example, Joffrey's death scene or Rhaenys's thing in Ep9. these surprises are completely pointless. They don't add to the story. they are not Ned's death that leaves the whole GoT the show as the consequence! they're not the battle of Blackwater that leaves Stannis weak and ready to delve further into sorcery! they're not the Red Wedding! they are just the crazy thing of the week! they are only as good as the Supernatural's monster of the week! this really sucks because it's obvious that they have tried to make something memorable...then there's the bigger issue. that's the lack of boldness in writing, specifically regarding characters. there's this trend in shows today that they shy away from making a character unlikeable. they're trying to avoid backlash(this one is also on the our social media culture). Alicent's character comes to mind about that. I don't mind how they have changed her age. although that puts her in a more favorable position from the get-go as she is not an adult having a feud with a 7-14-year-old! but her actions during ep 8-10 are a bit odd. She is not consistent, and worse, she comes off as stupid, which couldn't be further from the truth given the power she's gotten herself as a queen consort when the king has a fully grown heir. then there's Viserys's marked hesitation in marrying Laena because of her age. which is pretty good and in character at that (even in the book twenty-something yr old Viserys did not want to marry a 12 yr old. he wanted to marry a woman, and any woman. a woman he's chosen) . but the show completely ignores that about what they emphasised about the character two scenes ago by having him wed Alicent , a 14-15 yr old and his daughter's friend at that. all while he looks 40 at the very least. 

    On 8/31/2023 at 5:51 PM, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

    This 10000000%. One of my friends wanted to watch GoT with me, but she didn't want to see the nudity and sex scenes so we used VidAngel. We were missing too many scenes with vital information so we gave up..

    VidAngel??????? is that some sort of voluntarily censorship?!!

  2. to be honest, I pretty much doubt that either GRRM/Cheesmonger/Spider had any proper plans! Even Jon Con complains about this. 

    the only thing that can make sense to me is that Illyrio and Varys are coming up with these plans when they see opportunities. They take Aegon because there's a chance he'd be useful. They reach JonCon , starting project perfect-king when Robert becomes a disappointment, and they can predict a mess in the future. They think of the Dothraki and Viserys and Daenerys when Jon Arryn, and Stannis start asking questions. They remember Dany can be useful after she has dragons. It would be very odd if they had a plan from the beginning. Including (and especially) fAegon, Blackfyre, or Aegon the Savior plan! They seem to be rich enough just to rent a famous sellsword company for a side project too! I mean, we are given zero indication that Illyrio had any reason to give three expensive dragon eggs to Dany. But he does, and neither he nor Dany see it as any financial difficulty. 

  3. 4 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

    The comparison was to illustrate that Daenerys is a good person who hasn't done anything bad which is not true.


    And Cersei may have done worse but not by a huge margin (I am pretty sure MOST of the slavers she crusified were not guilty),, so it's a poor comparison.

    Read that again. You missed so many points in my post. I read a couple of your posts after that one, so I will answer all of them here. Just to be clear! 

    the point I was trying to make in that post was solely about CERSEI. the comparison between her and Tywin and Daenerys does not mean I took up a ruler measuring if Cersei's as bad as Tywin (in Bloody Mummers episode no less!) or that Daenerys is an angel Cersei can never hope to be like. 

    you started this thread basically claiming that Cersei was an innocent girl put in a terrible situation and forced to make terrible choices. you claimed the hatred towards Cersei is unjustified firstly because of her background and then because she is not in some 25 most evil characters list and such. that's the gist of it. 

    In my first post, I explained why the hatred towards Cersei is more intense than someone like Gregor Clegane. and that it doesn't even matter whether she is the worst to be the most hated. obviously, you ignored that post, and from what I've skimmed through, the posts like it. never mind. then you went on emphasizing again and again and again that Cersei's backstory should count toward something. when others rightly pointed out that lowborn characters had worse backgrounds, you dismissed that too. so, in the post you clearly did not understand, I first pointed out that people like Bloody Mummers may in part be the product of rulers like Tywin , Cersei, and Roose. I don't know why you said Cersei was not involved in Tywin's campaign as that was just an example. You see, I was merely pointing out how Cersei's acts would have a bigger effect than the Goat's. If you can't see what I mean, then let's take a look at Cersei's Dwarf Hunt. god knows how many people hunted down innocent dwarfs or in some cases, children, just to have a head delivered to Cersei. In this scenario, these criminals are like Bloody Mummers, Cersei is like Tywin who not only has created a situation where they can commit murder without punishment but are also encouraged. so there's that. 

    now we get to the Daenerys point of the post, which, again, you missed completely! Since you were reluctant to accept any comparison with lowborn characters, I thought a comparison with Daenerys, who may have very deliberately been placed in a similar situation by the author might help. Daenerys was in a similar situation with Cersei, a touch worse even. so much that her only family member did the opposite of making her feel safe. at least Cersei had Jaimie her entire life. the point is not that Daenerys is sinless. But it is that in a worse situation, she made better choices than Cersei. (If you'd like we can break down all these choices, but that needs another thread. ) therefore, Cersei's "tragic" background not only doesn't justify her actions but can hardly be so much as an excuse. Daenerys is simply the literal proof that it is possible to make different choices. Cersei tried to make the world an even worse place when she came to power as queen regent; Daenerys tried to make it better with an epiphany that king and queen's job is to bring justice. if you deny this, all I can suggest is to reread the books.

    Oh, and the issue of Cersei's love for her children that you've continuously noted in this thread. honestly, give me a passage, sentence, whatever in the book that we can conclude Cersei is motivated by love for her children. From what I read her biggest motivations are greed and lust for power and, more importantly, attention. her love for her children ends with her love for a part of herself. she is even emotionally extremely abusive towards Tommen, and instead of educating him for survival (which you claim to be her goal), thinks it's finally her chance and uses him for her own selfish ambitions. 

  4. 35 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

    I will not be happy if it happens. It conflicts with Aegon's actions in Fire and Blood and there is a complete lack of foreshadowing for it in the books. It will stand out to me as a blatant retcon and undermine my ability to immerse myself in the story. I do not feel there is any need for it and it would be silly. And of course people will then start claiming that Aegon's Dornish genocide was justified/necessary and that anyone who opposes the great Targaryan dynasty is a traitor to humanity and all that...:rolleyes:

    I can't say I disagree.

    The problem is "Aegon's prophecy" is a bit of a goofy theory, claiming that Aegon knew precisely what would happen and had exactly the correct conclusions as to what to do! As we've seen in the books, prophecies/dreams are vague on their own, then there is the perception of them! It is almost impossible that Aegon would get all the right answers!  However, I do think the books give enough vagueness that Aegon can potentially have a dream or prophecy driving him, though not the famous "Aegon's prophecy" that HOTD used. In my opinion, that is the three-headed dragon prophecy. The thing is, Aegon was involved in Essosi affairs before his sudden and ambitious conquest.  he also married both his sisters ;and during the conquest and afterward treated them as equals. all despite the fact that no Targaryen lord after Aenar had more than one wife. then he took up the three-headed dragon sigil. and it could be only a sigil, if Rhaegar and Aemon hadn't seen more to it. whatever reason Rgaegar and Aemon had to think three is a sacred number when it comes to the dragons, Aegon and his sisters must have had the same notion. my best guess is some sort of prophecy or dream.

  5. 41 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

    OK, I agree. Being more hated doesn't equate being more evil. Let's end the discussion.

    Cersei might be a noble, but outside of Biter who literally had his tongue cut off and was forced to fight against dogs with his bare teeth, Cersei is still more tragic than all of these guys. And for the record, this is also the reason why Biter isn't listed as a Complete Monster while Rorge who did this to him is. None of the other three:

    - Had Tywin Lannister as a father.

    - Lost their mothers at a very young age.

    - Received a prophecy at the age of 10 that all their children would die which haunts them for the rest of their lives and which turns them into paranoics who mistrust everyone and try to do anything to prevent it. We see from her own thoughts how much this prophecy has affected her psyche and how she fears in constant fear and is the main reason why she hates Tyrion so much, so I really don't understand why so many people dismiss this as a factor.

     - Were in an abusive marriage where they were raped. We also see how much it has traumatized her in her own thoughts when it's shown that she feels weak and wants to be in control in large part due to the experience of being raped.

     - Had to fear that they and their entire families would be executed because of the sexist Westerosi laws.

     These guys you mentioned only have the excuse that they are lowborn.

    Being lowborn is not an excuse, just like having a tragic backstory in noble life is not an excuse. The lowborn villains not only have more limitations and fewer choices, but they are also pretty much the result of people like Cersei and Tywin being in charge, who, instead of mitigating the crime rate in their territory, employ people like the Bloody Mummers—enabling them in do so and frankly creating a demand in the market! Would the bloody mummers even become a "company" famed for their cruelty if influential people like Tywin did not need their services? Would Ramsey Bolton be just as evil if his father didn't find messing with him by sending Reek as his babysitter amusing?! Probably not.... but do these facts excuse the crimes of the Goat or Ramsay? No. In the same way, Cersei's upbringing and issues merely explain why she turned out the way she is; it does not justify her crimes, whether you think she had it worse than Ramsay, Goat, or Rorge. 

    Then there's the matter of CHOICES. Pretending that Cersei had no choice in her crimes is extraordinarily absurd and sexist (as Craving Peaches aptly said). A great comparison in this regard is with Daenerys:

    • Cersei suffered from Tywin, Daenerys suffered from Viserys
    • Cersei lost  her mother as a child, and Daenerys lost both her parents
    • Cersei had a brother who cared about her, and Daenerys had Viserys, for god's sake
    • Cersei received a scary prophecy as a teenager; Daenerys fucking sees the prophecies in her dreams as a teenager
    • Cersei was married as a pawn to a brute of a husband, and so was Daenerys
    • Cersei was raped, and so was Daenerys
    • on top of that, Daenerys also experienced poverty

    by the end, you don't see the two women making the same choices, committing the same atrocities; doesn't that tell you something?

  6. On 4/4/2023 at 9:40 PM, boltons are sick said:

    For those of you who don't know, the Complete Monster (also known as Pure Evil) is a trope created by TV Tropes, so they can categorize villainous characters who are exceptionally heinous by the standards of the story, have no redeeming qualities and are completely unsympathetic.

    Neither of the two versions of Cersei is considered a Complete Monster due to her many redeeming qualities, excuses for her actions and being played heavily for sympathy by the story.

    Most of her actions are just motivated by a desire to keep her family safe and she is not morally worse than characters like Jaime or Tyrion who are liked by the fandom.

    You can read more about the criteria of what constitutes a Complete Monster here

    Below are the entries from TV Tropes of all 25 characters from the franchise (this includes the TV show and video games) who have been approved as Complete Monsters:

    Main series 

    • King Joffrey I Baratheon of King's Landing, despite his young age, stands out as one of the vilest characters in the series. While always shown to have a darker side, Joffrey finally crosses the line when he has Lord Eddard "Ned" Stark executed, ensuring that the war with the Northerners would never reach a peaceful conclusion. Joffrey not only does this in front of Ned's daughter, Sansa, Joffrey's own fiancée, he then forces her to look at the decapitated heads of her father and household afterwards. This is followed by a long period of Domestic Abuse during which Joffrey has her regularly beaten by his Kingsguard and threatens to rape her even after she marries his uncle, Tyrion Lannister. As king, Joffrey revels in his power over life and death, and his reign is filled with all manner of pointless cruelties, his crimes including: having a minstrel whose song offended him choose between losing his fingers or his tongue; attempting to have a drunken knight drowned in a cask of wine; firing on starving peasants with his crossbow; ordering his bodyguard to cut through a crowd of peasants to get at one of them who threw manure at him; nailing antlers to the heads of sympathizers to his uncle and rival for the Iron Throne, Stannis, and firing them from trebuchets as entertainment during the Battle of the Blackwater; and attempting to convince his grandfather to execute everyone who fought against him, regardless of whether or not they surrendered. A budding psychopath who believes being the king gives him the right to do whatever he likes, Joffrey's sadism is so great that he is noted to be well on his way to surpassing his predecessor as the next Mad King of the Seven Kingdoms.

    • Ser Gregor Clegane, aka "the Mountain that Rides", is a sadist who serves House Lannister and one of the most feared men in Westeros, rumored to have murdered his sister, father, and two wives. When he was 12, he burned half of his brother Sandor's face when the latter played with one of his toys. At 17, he dashed the infant Prince Aegon's head against a wall, then raped and murdered the latter's mother, Princess Elia. While at a tournament, Gregor murders one of his opponents, then tries to kill another and Sandor after losing a joust. Following the tournament, he and his men gang-rape an innkeeper's daughter. Unleashed on the Riverlands, Gregor and his men rape and murder anyone who falls into their hands. At one point, for ten days, Gregor picks one person each day from a group of villagers to torture for information. After one villager volunteers to save her daughter, Gregor has the daughter tortured the next day to make sure the mother didn't leave anything out. He tortures Vargo Hoat, including cutting strips of flesh from Hoat and feeding them to him, before letting Hoat die. During a duel with Oberyn Martell, Princess Elia's brother, who asserts his responsibility for the murder of his sister and her children to him, Gregor's only concern is that Oberyn got the order of events wrong, correcting him before brutally crushing Oberyn's skull.

    • Ramsay Snow, the Bastard of Bolton, stands out as one of the most savage and depraved men in Westeros. Suspected of murdering his good-hearted, trueborn brother, Ramsay first comes to prominence after he forces Lady Hornwood to marry him to gain her lands. Having already starved her to death, Ramsay avoids death at the hands of Winterfell soldiers by impersonating his servant, Reek, then sending his "friend" to die in his place. When Theon Greyjoy takes over Winterfell, the imprisoned Ramsay allies himself with Greyjoy and acts as a corruptive influence, ultimately being the one to convince Theon to cross the line by murdering two little boys to pass them off as Bran and Rickon Stark. Gathering his own forces, Ramsay slaughters Ser Rodrik's Northerner soldiers, then betrays and captures Theon before ordering his men to raze Winterfell and slaughter everyone inside. One of Ramsay's favorite past-times is flaying people alive and he's done this many times, from the people he tortures, to the girls he hunts for fun that give him bad sport, to the surrendering Ironborn forces of Moat Cailin after Ramsay promised them mercy. Ramsay is also responsible for physically and mentally torturing Theon Greyjoy to condition him into a pathetic, insane wretch who believes himself the new Reek. Taking an Arya Stark impersonator as his wife to maintain Bolton control of the North, Ramsay abuses her constantly, despite her usefulness, even forcing Theon to participate in her wedding night bedding. A half-feral beast of a man, Ramsay lives to satisfy his sadistic urges and is so pointlessly and moronically cruel that even his own sociopathic father has to hold himself back from killing him.

    • Craster is a wicked, hedonistic Wildling and uneasy ally of the Night's Watch. Keeping a harem of abused women, Craster rapes them in his isolated keep beyond the Wall, even assaulting any female children born to his "wives" from a prepubescent age. Any male children born are left as sacrifices to the Others, Craster desiring nothing more than a life to enjoy casually raping the women in his keep free of consequence.

    • Rorge is a Serial Rapist and Serial Killer—especially of children—and the worst of the Brave Companions, his cruelty even exceeding their leader, Vargo Hoat. Freed along with his companion Biter, Rorge signs on with the "Bloody Mummers" after Arya Stark saves him from certain death, to which he responds by threatening to sodomize her with her own wooden sword. After the Brave Companions capture Jaime and Brienne, Rorge attempts to rape Brienne and threatens to mutilate her face if she screams. After Hoat's death, Rorge leads a band of brigands on the raid on Saltpans, resulting in the massacre of nearly the entire town. Rorge personally kills 20 men and rapes a 12-year-old girl, mutilating her then giving the girl to his men to mutilate her further. Upon encountering Brienne again, Rorge expresses a desire to cut off her legs and have her watch him rape a 10-year-old girl—with the latter's own crossbow. Additional material indicates that he is also the reason why Biter is the way he is—finding an orphan boy, Rorge removed his tongue, filed his teeth, and made him fight dogs with only his new fangs.

    • Euron Greyjoy, captain of the Silence, is the evilest of the Ironborn and perhaps the most wicked man to ever raise a sail. Having murdered his elder brother as a child, he later murdered the infant Robin while molesting his brothers Aeron and Urrigon. Scorning all taboos and gods alike, Euron was later exiled by his brother Balon and took to reaving and murdering all across the world. Killing and raping countless innocents, Euron has Balon murdered and returns to claim the Seastone Chair, killing all who object in sadistically inventive ways. Capturing his brother Aeron, Euron subjects him to nightmarish psychological torture while having the Shield Islands sacked and their nobles raped and murdered. Taking his pregnant mistress Falia Flowers, Euron removes her tongue to be lashed to the prow with Aeron and numerous other holy men and warlocks whom he has tortured, with the intent to use them as a sacrifice in an upcoming battle. Planning on nothing less than to rise as a new god from the graves and charnel pits, Euron plots the apocalypse to reshape himself into something new and terrible.

    The World of Ice & Fire; Archmaester Gyldayn's Histories; Fire & Blood

    • House Targaryen:

      • King Maegor I Targaryen, aka "Maegor the Cruel", usurped the throne from his nephew and promptly decapitated the one Archmaester who protested. As king, Maegor turned to brutal tactics to suppress the Faith of the Seven, even riding on his dragon Balerion to burn down a Sept with all worshippers inside, using archers to pick off stragglers. Maegor proceeded to commit massacre after massacre, even passing off the skulls of poor smallfolk in the wrong place at the wrong time as members of the Faith's warriors. Following the capture of Wat the Hewer, a leader of the Poor Fellows, Maegor had his limbs cut off. Worse still was Maegor's attitudes towards family: Maegor killed his own nephew in combat, and then had his second nephew captured and tortured to death. When one of his wives gave birth to a "stillborn monstrosity," Maegor had her, everyone at the birth, and her entire family executed. Obsessed with having an heir, Maegor forcibly married three women, including his own niece. After having the Red Keep constructed, Maegor also had the builders massacred to keep its secrets to himself.

      • Queen Tyanna of the Tower is the third wife of Maegor the Cruel. A former Pentoshi courtesan rumored to dabble in alchemy and sorcery, Tyanna served as Maegor's chief spy, plotting the deaths of thousands for Maegor. When Maegor's nephews rebelled, Tyanna personally tortured Prince Viserys for nine days before he expired, with many, many more innocents dying in agony at her hands. Tyanna would poison Maegor's other wives to ensure they birthed only stillborn monstrosities, including Queen Alys Harroway, who Tyanna herself tortured to death while dozens of Alys's suspected lovers died, along with Alys's entire House. Justly feared and despised during Maegor's reign, Tyanna was one of the few who could rival her husband for wickedness and sadism.

    • Sers "Hard" Hugh Hammer and Ulf (the) White, aka "The Betrayers", are dragon tamers descending from Targaryen bastards recruited by Queen Rhaenrya I Targaryen. Defecting to her rival-brother King Aegon II's side, Hugh and Ulf attack Tumbleton, scorching the town with their dragons and killing thousands in the burning and many more drowning in the river as they try to flee. Having Tumbleton's gates opened to sack it, women—and girls as young as eight—are raped, babies are impaled on spears, and Ulf personally makes a point of raping three maidens per night, feeding those who fail to satisfy him to his dragon. While Ulf demands Highgarden for his services, Hugh plans to depose Aegon and take the throne himself with his dragon, nailing horseshoes to the head of one man who angrily knocks off Hugh's self-made crown.

    • The Ironborn loved to Rape, Pillage, and Burn:

      • House Greyjoy: Dalton Greyjoy, one of the earlier Greyjoys, aka the "Red Kraken" and Lord-Reaper of Pyke during the Dance of the Dragons, began his reaving when he was only a boy. At the age of 12, Dalton began killing men and taking salt-wives for his own, with numerous successful raids behind him. During the Dance, Dalton indulged his bloodlust by raiding up and down the west coast, sacking cities and taking hundreds of women as salt-wives while quickly tiring of women and passing others to his brothers if he did not find them attractive enough. Attacking even noble houses and plotting to sack and conquer even pillars of Westeros such as Oldtown, Dalton was only stopped after one such salt-wife, known as Tess, opened his throat in revenge for her rape as he slept.

      • House Hoare: King Qhored I Hoare, aka "Qhored the Cruel", was a vicious Ironborn ruler who had thousands of women captured and raped. Brutally killing one subject's sons for his being late in paying him tribute, Qhored also ordered the sacking of Oldtown, his warring and raiding plaguing the continent for three-quarters of a century.

    • Yi Ti/YiTish Mythology: The Bloodstone Emperor is the jealous second son of the semi-divine Opal Emperor. Murdering his own older sister, the Amethyst Empress, to take power over the paradisaical Great Empire of the Dawn, the Bloodstone Emperor begins worshipping a black stone and marked his rule with mass murder and enslavement, feasting on the flesh of man, conducting mass torture and practicing dark magic. So atrocious is the mass sin at the tyrant's hands that the benevolent Goddess, the Maiden-Made-of-Light and ancestor to the Bloodstone Emperor himself, leaves the world in peril to eradicate the latter's empire, electing to risk the death of all rather than have it suffer under his monstrous excesses.

    Other Continuities

    Game of Thrones & Histories & Lore

    • King Joffrey I Baratheon graduates from a spoiled prince to a "vicious idiot" of a ruler following the death of his supposed father Robert. Having once tried to kill his fiancée Sansa Stark's younger sister and lowborn friend for standing up to him, Joffrey swiftly orders the execution of Eddard Stark, Lord of the North and father to Sansa, even knowing it will mean war. Throwing aside all pretense of charm, Joffrey also begins regularly tormenting his captive bride-to-be, forcing Sansa to gaze at the severed head of her father while having his Kingsguard beat her at his leisure. A whimsical sadist, Joffrey responds to a bard's taunting song by ordering him mutilated and when his rule drives starving peasants into accosting him, orders them all be put to death in a bloody riot. Lusting at the mere thought of violence, Joffrey forces one prostitute bought for him to beat another, later restraining and shooting the survivor to death for his own amusement. Not even family is safe from his insanity, with Joffrey threatening to kill his mother, ordering his uncle assassinated, and having all of Robert's bastard children—including babies—murdered to secure his false claim to the throne. A blossoming teenage psychopath even without the years of most of Westeros's worst behind him, Joffrey's short rule is marked by such cruelty he is said to have possibly grown to surpass the Mad King Aerys II Targaryen for sheer depravity.

    • Petyr Baelish, aka "Littlefinger", is a manipulative, self-serving man who believes that "chaos is a ladder", and orchestrates a variety of Westeros's misfortunes to climb to the top. Owning and operating a brothel whose workers he abuses, mistreats, and even mutilates to suit his clients' desires, Baelish callously has any who cross him sent off to be butchered, notably handing off Ros to be tortured to death by Joffrey Baratheon. Out of both ambition and a petty desire to possess the hand of Catelyn Stark, Baelish kick-starts the War of the Five Kings by seducing Lysa Arryn into murdering her husband while Baelish stages an assassination attempt on Catelyn's crippled son, turns kingdoms against one another, and personally arranges the death of Catelyn's current husband Eddard "Ned" Stark and many of his men. Profiting off the massive, bloody war that costs thousands of lives across Westeros, Baelish murders Lysa and shifts his lustful attentions from Catelyn to her young daughter Sansa, psychologically abusing the girl before sending her off to be raped and tortured so as to later "save" her from her fate and convince her to team with him in wiping out her own family. His scheming leading to unfathomable death and devastation through the kingdoms and empowering monsters like Joffrey and Ramsay Bolton/Snow, Baelish is willing to doom countless lives—even those of his apparent loved ones—so long as it brought himself good fortune, proudly boastful that the climb to power for power's sake is the only thing that truly matters to him.

    • Ser Gregor Clegane, "the Mountain that Rides" of House Clegane, is Westeros's most dreaded knight, in service to Lord Tywin Lannister. An ill-tempered sadist since childhood, Gregor once burned his brother Sandor's face for playing with his toy to the point of gruesome disfiguring. When Gregor later loses a jousting match in a tournament, he wrathfully decapitates his own horse before storming the crowd, trying to kill the man who beat him and any who stand in his way. Occupying Harrenhal fortress under Tywin, Gregor has his sadistic minion the Tickler torture prisoners to death for information and after losing Harrenhal, orders the hundreds of remaining captives be put to death. Recruited to fight for the crown in Tyrion's Trial by Combat, Gregor is found perfecting his sword skills by violently butchering more prisoners in one-sided "duels". Battling Prince Oberyn Martell, Oberyn tries to force Gregor to confess to having raped and murdered his sister Elia, as well as her children, something Gregor outright boasts of as he shoves his thumbs through the prince's eyes before squeezing his head until it explodes.

    • Lord Walder Frey, head of House Frey, after a few episodes of pretension as nothing but a doddering old pervert, proves his true evil when he conceives of the Red Wedding. For the sake of getting back at Lord Robb Stark for not honoring his wedding vow, Frey has Robb, his pregnant wife, his mother, hundreds of his bannermen, and even Robb's direwolf Grey Wind massacred in one of the most devastating acts of treachery Westeros ever sees. When his wife is taken hostage, Walder throws her away and remarks "I'll find another." Spending the rest of his life rubbing his hands over the power he backstabbed his way into, Lord Walder violates every single value even the cutthroat world of Westeros upholds.

    • Craster, a vicious Wildling and shaky Night's Watch ally, is given a self-righteous demeanor. Abusing the women of his isolated keep, Craster regularly rapes them, even keeping any girls born as a result to add to his dozens of victims, while leaving any infant boys born to be taken by the White Walkers. Incensed by the mere implication of debauchery, Craster declares himself a "godly man" and threatens to kill any of the Night's Watch brothers who dare question his way of life.

    • Ramsay Bolton/Snow, the bastard son of Lord Roose Bolton and the most vicious member of House Bolton, is a sadist with a knack for torture and flaying others alive. After capturing Winterfell, Ramsay proceeded to play twisted games with the captive Theon Greyjoy, pretending to be an Ironborn agent who comes to save Theon—killing his own men to keep up the ruse—and culminating in Ramsay bringing Theon to the Dreadfort and subjecting him to prolonged, hideous torture, including flaying bits of him and castrating him. All that remains of Theon afterwards is a broken, obedient shell whom Ramsay dubs "Reek." In his spare time, Ramsay and his equally psychotic lover Myranda release girls into the woods to hunt them for sport, also using the girls to feed Ramsay's savage hounds. When Ramsay makes Theon negotiate a surrender with other Ironborn, Ramsay guarantees their safety, only to have them flayed alive and displayed as gruesome trophies. After marrying Sansa Stark, Ramsay rapes her on the wedding night and continues to sexually and physically abuse her throughout the rest of the marriage. Ramsay cements his rule over his hold by murdering Roose and having his hounds eat his infant brother and stepmother. When he finally engages the Northern armies, Ramsay is apathetic to the death of his own men and shoots the preteen Rickon Stark dead—moments before he reaches Jon Snow. With few matching his pointless savagery, Ramsay Snow exemplified every negative stereotype about bastards in Westeros.

    • Karl Tanner is a former assassin and sworn brother of the Night's Watch. Taking over Craster's Keep in a mutiny, Karl has his Lord Commander Jeor Mormont killed to drink wine from his skull while allowing his men to rape and abuse Craster's daughter-wives as they see fit. Having the only male child left to the cold, when Bran Stark and his group arrive Karl plans to torment and kill them all, even trying to force himself on the teenage Meera while forcing her brother to watch.

    • King Aerys II Targaryen, aka the Mad King, grew into a paranoid pyromaniac and one of the worst of his family's dynasty. Terrified of any threats to his power, Aerys begins murdering or torturing those who incense him, having one man's tongue torn out for making a joke. Becoming obsessed with the destructive wildfire, Aerys uses it to burn entire cities when he deems them to house traitors, even inviting a Northern lord to the capital before burning him alive when Aerys's son is accused of kidnapping the lord's daughter. His tyranny causing a massive rebellion, Aerys goes to war hoping to exterminate all Houses who oppose him, and eventually plans to burn all of King's Landing and his own half-a-million citizens within to kill his attacking enemies.

    • Euron Greyjoy was banished from the Iron Islands after having burned the Lannisport fleet. Following the "Old Way" on the high seas, Euron took slaves by the thousands to trade or for sex, having any sailors who fought back tortured to death. At one point, Euron tore the tongues out of his own entire crew for interrupting his thoughts, despite them just having saved his life. Returning to murder his brother Balon and claim the Salt Throne, Euron joins Queen Cersei Lannister in a war to conquer Westeros, later having a defeated enemy fleet mutilated while planning to spread his pillaging worldwide.

    • King Maegor I Targaryen, aka "Maegor the Cruel", is one of the most brutal rulers to ever sit on the Iron Throne. Usurping his own nephew and then killing him in battle, Maegor would go on to usher in a reign of callous tyranny. His many atrocities include executing anyone who expresses an opinion he doesn't like; burning down a Sept with many people inside; starting a campaign across the Riverlands, the Westerlands, and the Reach which claims the lives of thousands of innocent people for him to collect their skulls and pass off as members of the Faith Militant; forcibly marrying three women who had been widowed because of the wars he had waged; executing his second wife and every single member of her family when she gives birth to a deformed and stillborn baby; slaughtering all the builders who had constructed the Red Keep to keep its secret passages for himself and, allegedly, having a hidden dungeon to brutally torture prisoners. Maegor's actions ravage the realm so badly, that his cruelty would be remembered even hundreds of years after his death.

    Video Games

    • 2012 game: Valarr Hill, bastard brother to Alester Sarwyck of Riverspring, is the main villain of the game. A member of Queen Cersei's guard hunting for the pregnant mother of one of King Robert's bastards named Jeyne, Valarr frames his and Alester's younger brother for the death of their father and later tries to have him assassinated. Revealed as the man who killed hero Mors's family on Lord Tywin's orders, Valarr also raped Mors's daughter, a fact he taunts him about when they meet in trial by combat. Valarr intends to force his own half-sister into marriage and rape her, before cheating in the duel by using dark magic to kill Mors and having all the witnesses massacred before murdering his and Alester's sister; hunting down Jeyne, killing her; and having the lord defending her and his men massacred. Valarr breaks every taboo Westeros has, from kinslaying, rape, violating guest right and more, caring for nothing but his own ascent to further heights.

    • Telltale Games Series: Ramsay Snow is the representative in the North for the as-yet-unseen Roose Bolton, orchestrating the conflict between the Forresters and Whitehills for profit and enjoyment. Ramsay is introduced while flaying a man alive for recreation, lamenting that the result is "not [his] best work". After entering the Forresters' estate by force, he tries to take Talia hostage with clear lascivious intent before pragmatically settling on her brother instead, and murders the teenage Ethan on a whim. He later returns to "break" Rodrik by forcing him to witness his torture (and eventual murder) of Rodrik's friend Arthur. He later pits the Forresters and Whitehills against each other in a war of annihilation, passing up potential profit for the sake of a bloody spectacle. A sadist who lives only to relish the suffering he inflicts on others, Ramsay is feared and loathed throughout the North.

    In other words, the most evil characters from the books are Joffrey, Gregor, Ramsay, Rorge, Craster, Euron, Maegor, Tyanna, Dalton Greyjoy, Qhored Hoare, the two Betrayers (Hugh and Ulf) and the Bloodstone Emperor.

    The most evil from the TV series and the Histories & Lore animated videos (which are part of the TV show canon) are Joffrey, Gregor, Ramsay, Walder, Craster, Euron. Karl Tanner, Aerys, Littlefinger and Maegor.

    The most evil from video games are Valarr Hill and Ramsay (Telltale version).

    As you can see, no version is of Cersei is listed among the most evil characters of the franchise because she simply doesn't meet the criteria. This means that her evil is really exaggerated by the whole fandom and she gets far more hatred than she deserves for some reason even though she has many redeeming qualities and excuses for her actions. So, why is she so hated by the fandom even though she was intended to be sympathetic?

    First of all, Cersei hardly has any redeemable qualities. Cersei is not only selfish, cruel, manipulative, and petty, but she also fails to be a competent antagonist, which makes each of her acts even more irritating. As for the Evil List, it simply does not matter. Characters don't invoke feelings in the readers because of their morality and such; they invoke feelings due to their impact. Cersei might be a better person than Gregor Clegane; however, while Gregor's worst cruelties are only hearsay and are towards secondary characters in the books, Cersei's are alive on the page and are directed towards the protagonists. This is actually true in RL too. You don't hate some murderer you see on the news with the same intensity you hate an abusive or even cheating spouse. 

  7. Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

    I started reading ASOIAF close to a decade ago, and in that time I've watched the fandom go through a lot of different "phases." For those of you who have been reading these books since the 90s, you've seen far more. What are some ways the fandom has changed throughout the years? Here are some that I've noticed:

    ooh , fun.

    Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:
    • Tyrion: People went from loving the Imp to calling him a "grey character" to swinging so far in the other direction that a lot of people now unironically view him the way Tywin and Cersei do, as if we're just supposed to take all of that at face value. I think part of this was in reaction to his St. Tyrion TV persona.
      • At the same time, there have been many attempts over the years to lionize Cersei and to "ackshually" Jaime's redemption arc by claiming that he's just flat-out evil. Neither of them have been particularly successful as of yet.

    yeah , well , Lannisters are pretty evil! lol . 

    Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:
    • After S8 of GOT, Young Griff went from being seen as an extraneous character to one who was absolutely vital to the story.

    I kinda got the opposite of this ever since I joined the forum (and started watching youtube fan videos before that). seems like the show has solidified the lack of importance in YG's character in the fandom.  

    Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:
    • Thanks to GOT, MQD is a more widely-accepted theory. At the same time, Daenerys' fall from grace has also seemed to soften some of the criticism against her, which was always strong online. I think that part of the problem people had with Dany was that sense of cognitive dissonance: the story kept telling us she was was perfect (especially the show) even when it didn't feel true. She's more human now.

    wait a minute, she is more human now? there was a time that Dany hard-core fans were even more faithful?! 

    Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:
    • A lot of the fandom "titans" have fallen off the map. Some of them just gave up and quit (i.e. BryndenBFish), but overall I think most people just started to realize how silly it was to consider regular people who have never met GRRM "experts" on how his mind works.
    • The fandom used to be obsessed with buzzwords like "nuance" and "subverting expectations." There's less of that now.


    Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:
    • Cleganebowl went from being GET HYPE to "actually, that was kind of embarrassing. . . "

    that was kinda embarrassing! 

    Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:
    • ASOIAF was always criticized for its depictions of rape and, to a lesser extent, childbirth deaths. Now there's more criticism about child brides, age gaps, sexualization of characters, etc.
      • This has also made the fandom more serious overall, which has sucked the fun out of it a bit, unfortunately. Now if you want to ship Hot Pie and Old Nan, you have to include a 500-word essay about how fiction isn't real, depiction isn't endorsement, yada yada.

    I know where this is coming from Bard . have we been hard on you about Sansan?;)

    Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:
    • While GRRM is still a revered writer and creator, fewer people see him as a 4-D chess master with an encyclopedic knowledge of human history who has an elaborate multi-dimensional plan for the books and understands your subconscious better than you do.

    wow! Do you call this few?! 

    after thinking for a moment, I recalled we had more than popular threads criticizing GRRM . so that sounds about right

    Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:
    • Believe it or not, there used to be a huge overlap between Dany and Sansa fans. 



  8. I would've said eight episodes aren't enough. But they did manage to cramp 20 years of materials and, more importantly, character development into ten episodes, and it was largely ok.  Luke got all the character writing he needed for his death in two episodes; I suspect the same would happen with Jace and the rest. so, if only to keep the pacing the same as season 1 (as in every episode has a shock value moment, huge plot developments and major character deaths), I guess 8 episodes and 3 seasons in total makes sense. 

  9. 11 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

    Even if you don't like Jaime and Tyrion, and you don't count Torment and Myrcella, I think Daven and to a lesser extent Kevan and Lancel take the curse off the Lannisters a bit as a house during ASoIaF.

    to be honest, I quite like Jaimie and I definitely enjoy Tyrion's chapters . It doesn't change the fact that Jaimie's been a piece of shit most of his life to the point that he was more than ready to maim an 8 yr old girl because he thought his sister demanded it during sex. And also doesn't change the fact that Tyrion is a creep who has a singer killed and cooked in a stew for the poor. maybe "evil" is too much for Jaimie and Tyrion to an extent, but they are not good enough to outweigh their father and sister's evil. 

    as for the rest, I'm pretty sure I said prominent members. I counted Tywin and his children as core House Lannister as Cersei's children are raised as Baratheons. Even Joffrey is proud to be Robert's son. but if we are going to count brothers and cousins, then I'd say Kevan is definitely one of the worst men in Westeros . not only the man is a partner in crime to Tywin , but he is also responsible for the terrible punishment of "walk of shame" for his own niece. the rest of the Lannisters, Genna, Daven, and Lancel (even though he is a little fool) are ok I guess. but again, they affect the overall reputation of Lannisters as Merrit "the innocent" Frey does the Freys . 

  10. I'm not bringing up historical figures and such. Because if we examine everything closely, every house ends up evil. Sadly including the Starks( the Hungry Wolf must give you a hint).

    In the main series, and by counting the prominent members of each family, the evilest house is definitely, and for sure, 1. house Bolton; 2/2 members being super nasty. After that, it goes like this imo:

    2. House Lannister: between Tywin's atrocities and Cersei's cruelties, the best thing you can get is Jaimie's arrogance and Tyrion's frustrating self-pity, who both, despite heroic and humane moments, are pretty terrible people, especially Tyrion, with showing great potential to become a mini-Tywin. (and I'm not even counting Joffrey as a Lannister!) 

    3. House Greyjoy : You've got Euron(pure evil), Balon(frustratingly cruel)  and Victarion(a dumb rock who is more that capable of cruelty) , every bit terrible individuals. then you have Aurone, who might be the best Greyjoy despite being a freaking fanatic. Then you have Theon, a prickly, selfish dude, even as Reek, and Asha, who only has the benefit of a very low bar to be counted as the most normal Greyjoy. 


  11. On 2/27/2023 at 11:12 PM, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

    The plot will give Aegon a chance to step aside for the rightful heir, Daenerys.  I doubt George will let him remain ignorant of his true beginnings. He is a Blackfyre.  Which gives him some claim to the throne but it is not as good as Daenerys' claim.  Rhaegar died on the Trident while Aerys was still the king.  Aerys named Prince Viserys as his heir.  She is Viserys' heir.  Aegon might contest that and refuse to step aside.  What hurt comes his way will be deserved. 

    you people think every character's arc is to choose between serving the true goddess, Daenerys, or standing against her.. don't you?

  12. I think the battles would have added a lot to the book  . Asha , Stannis , Theon , Tyrion , Victarion and Barristan may not end with cliffhangers, but they are definitely incomplete and even pointless to a point. that can easily be said about Quentyn , the constant discussions of lacking a point, and the dragons that never danced in a book called Dance with Dragons. with the battles, numerous POVs would have come together in one place and one of the most boring storylines, Meereen, would have come to a conclusion. which would have made the only two cliffhangers, Dany and Jon's , less frustrating and even fun because you wouldn't have to anticipate the conclusion to all the built up in two books.

  13. 7 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

    To me (f?)Aegon is "incarnation" of Pyrrhus of Epirus. Or he will gain some victories. But in the end he will fail bc he will not gain enough support to secure his crown. After all there are many people who do not like either Dorne or Golden Company.

    or Targaryens . poor fellow 

  14. 6 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

    This was Jon at fourteen and before his character development.

    Furthermore, the circumstances were hardly comparable. Tyrion was definitely being manipulative by design, but all he did to fAegon was imply that Dany might not be as submissive as he would like and that he might not be as perfect as he claims to be, a fairly minor attack on his worldview. On the other hand, he shattered Jon's naïve worldview in the cruelest manner imaginable, telling him about how low his new brothers would be and mocking his bastardry.

    Also, this is fAegon now, who will soon be king on the Iron Throne. That seems to be a big problem, no?

    yes , that was Jon at 14(though the general consensus in the book is that he's wiser than his age) before his character development. this was Aegon at 18 before his character development.
     I don't see much difference in that regard. the situations are indeed comparable.
     you shouldn't look at it as "oh , well he suggested that Dany might not be submissive" ... NO . as much as Jon's "brothers" and his bastardy is a huge deal for Jon, Aegon's sole purpose in life is important to him. Tyrion didn't just point out that his plans may not succeed. he shattered the boy's bubble completely. Tyrion questioned his identity which is honestly a big deal . not because of inheritance stuff but because of how would you feel if someone comes along and questions everything you know about yourself . then he questioned Dany's willingness to help him which from his answer we know he expects her help because they are kin (his only kin from Targ side at that) , not that it is her duty or that he'd be an amazing king . then T questions his abilities and why anyone should join his cause. then he questions Jon Con (basically his dad) and everyone else's loyalty and questions the success of a purpose he was preparing for his whole life. he also tells him of his dead father's overboldness and what not.  then he tells him he needs to prove himself to the nobles which like it or not works exactly the way Aegon approached it . yeah , it would have been different if Westeros was in a time of peace but it is not at the point Aegon decides to attack. this was surely a well-aimed, well-executed manipulation on Tyrion's part with heavy implications for Aegon.

    would this naivety and arrogance be a problem when Aegon becomes king? yes, surely. but he's not Joffrey and from what we've seen he tries to be better. 

  15. 5 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

    As for fAegon, I don't believe that we're meant to view him the way Varys pretends we are. Never mind the temper tantrum he threw over a board game ("Tyrion can get under your skin" is not a good excuse -- could you imagine any of our PoV characters being that immature at this point in the story, including people as young as Bran and Arya?), never mind that Tyrion himself thinks of Joffrey when this happens (who would know better?): just think of what he has done in the time we've seen him.

    I don't think the guy's the perfect king like Varys likes to believe either . but that is not to say Tyrion's assessment of him is correct . in book 1 , Tyrion did the exact same thing to Jon on their way up to Wall and Jon had Ghost terrorized Tyrion for it. sure, Tyrion didn't compare Jon to Joffrey then. but if we compare the two instances with Aegon and Jon, save for Tyrion's position in the whole thing they are exactly the same. two princes showing exactly the same behavior towards a certain (physically) underdog when faced with terrible truths. only Tyrion sees himself in Jon as a bastard,  is generally in a better mood and genuinely wants to help Jon see the truth. with Aegon, he downright tries to make him angry and manipulate him, he himself is in a bad place and doesn't see anything of himself in Aegon . so naturally he thinks about the other prince he knew. 

  16. Unfortunately, I think Aegon is up for a tragic end (probably at the lowest point of the Dream of Spring) too. whether there will be a Dance or not , I do not know ( a boring affair with only 3 dragons), but I doubt he'll survive this series. we can already be sure that another tragedy is waiting for him in tWoW . his father figure has a terrible disease and will go mad. he might have to kill JonCon after a Bells episode or support him and lose all of his kingdoms and popularity... like another Aegon I would say

    RE his competence, I don't know. but he's definitely a good kid, well-behaved, generally nice, appreciates competence instead of bloodlines (as appointing Duck as his kingsgaurd shows), albeit a bit arrogant (I'd say not more arrogant or naive than Robb and Jon at the beginning of the series) and shows a hint of sexism in his Golden Company speech (as it is Westerosi way)

  17. 1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

    I really think that if Jon is a bastard then their loyalty is to Aerys over him, no matter what Rhaegar said. Rhaegar dies, they would be with Aerys not with his paramour.

    we cannot be sure of the Kingsgaurds' purpose even before Rhaegar's death. Arthur was Rhaegar's best friend and Oswell was most likely Rhaegar's man as well . but the White Bull was loyal to the king to the bitter end, remember? and Aerys had named Viserys his heir even when both of Rhaegar's unquestionably legitimate children lived. so , it can't be about that. and besides, Aerys dies about 2 weeks after Rhaegar if I remember correctly. the Kingsgaurd are located in a secret remote spot. for all we know they had received all the news at the same time , not long before Ned's arruval.

  18. 1 hour ago, Loose Bolt said:

    Main duties of members of Kingsguard are to protect king, his family and obey all orders given to them by king.

    So the fact that 3 KG were still at Tower of Joy when they knew that Aerys II and Rhaegar were dead means that they believed that there was member of royal family or even king inside that tower. After all if Lyanna and Rhaegar were not married those 3 KG would not have any reasons to stay there bc all possible orders given to them by Rhaegar became void when they found out that that he had died.


    1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

    Yes, I agree and people seem to overlook this all the time, if Jon was just Rhaegar's bastard those Kingsguard members would have been with Rhaegar at the Trident or Aerys.

    guys , you're forgetting something(s) here : a) at that point Jon wasn't born and thus there was no way to know if the baby is a girl (after Viserys in line of succession) or a boy (before Viserys given we assume that R&L were indeed married) ...  b) whether Jon is a bastard or not , he'd be a member of royal family if Rhaegar recognizes him and I guess nothing shouts "this kid is mine" more than abducting(running away with) a woman and keeping her in a love(sex) tower. ... I have my own issues with the Kingsgaurds' presence (and almost half of the order at that?!) and I have come up with some theories of my own. But because of the reasons stated above, I tend to think it's not about a matter of succession if it's about unborn Jon. the easiest explanation is that they were simply there because of Rhaegar/Aerys's orders pre-death and because there was no way of leaving there just yet to get to Rhaella and Viserys . thanks to Jaimie who still feels ashamed and guilty for failing Rhaegar's family despite his order to protect them , we can know that the Kingsgaurd don't just abandon their mission because of the royal's death(unless they are Jaimie) 

  19. 5 hours ago, Phileonidas said:

    Well, looking only at the A Song of Ice and Fire series, George does look a bit unproductive. But taking all his works into account, he doesn't look that bad, since he did write and publish Fire & Blood, The World of Ice and Fire and that new Targaryen book. So I could imagine (and hope) that it won't take him that long to complete Winds when there's "only" up to 500 pages or 25% left to write.

    sorry to disappoint but Fire and Blood is just an expansion of a part of World Book + Princess and the Queen and the Rogue Prince ... so, not that many new materials there. and of course, this last Targ book is just a summary of fire and blood with pretty pictures. I'd say all the credit for that one should go to the artists rather than GRRM!

  20. 1 hour ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

    Some have speculated that Ashara faked her death and is living as Jyanna (Jyanna rhymes with Lyanna) because she feels guilty about Lyannas death. She lives in grey water watch - a perfect hiding spot because the castle moves and is extremely hard to visit 

    I hate that theory.

    I mean , at first glance , it seems totally plausible that the crannogman who spent so much time checking out a random lady's dancing partners in a ball has a crush on her . but it honestly ends right there in Harrenhall , whether they made a baby there or not!

    first , why the hell would she feel guilty ?! . then , in what kind of world a woman fakes her death to run away and live with her brother's murderer, leaving all of her family and friends behind immediately after the fact at that?!!! and how would the Daynes be so respectful of Ned , the other murderer who also helped Howland take their daughter away to some frozen hell that they name their only child after him?!!!!!!

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