EggBlue

Ser Arthur Dayne dying entrapped in some net like a fly, while Dawn, the always-sharp meteor material sword that freaking shines, isn't helpful because of technicalities ?! please!  

The dart thing makes more sense. Although, in that case, what really would have made sense was for Howland to get all three kingsguard like that and spare their other five companions. That goes about the miracle net too! If it's so good Art can't cut it with Dawn, why not put the net on all three when they are still distracted talking to Ned, and their swords aren't even out?!  

11 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Even if you don't like Jaime and Tyrion, and you don't count Torment and Myrcella, I think Daven and to a lesser extent Kevan and Lancel take the curse off the Lannisters a bit as a house during ASoIaF.

to be honest, I quite like Jaimie and I definitely enjoy Tyrion's chapters . It doesn't change the fact that Jaimie's been a piece of shit most of his life to the point that he was more than ready to maim an 8 yr old girl because he thought his sister demanded it during sex. And also doesn't change the fact that Tyrion is a creep who has a singer killed and cooked in a stew for the poor. maybe "evil" is too much for Jaimie and Tyrion to an extent, but they are not good enough to outweigh their father and sister's evil. 

as for the rest, I'm pretty sure I said prominent members. I counted Tywin and his children as core House Lannister as Cersei's children are raised as Baratheons. Even Joffrey is proud to be Robert's son. but if we are going to count brothers and cousins, then I'd say Kevan is definitely one of the worst men in Westeros . not only the man is a partner in crime to Tywin , but he is also responsible for the terrible punishment of "walk of shame" for his own niece. the rest of the Lannisters, Genna, Daven, and Lancel (even though he is a little fool) are ok I guess. but again, they affect the overall reputation of Lannisters as Merrit "the innocent" Frey does the Freys . 

I'm not bringing up historical figures and such. Because if we examine everything closely, every house ends up evil. Sadly including the Starks( the Hungry Wolf must give you a hint).

In the main series, and by counting the prominent members of each family, the evilest house is definitely, and for sure, 1. house Bolton; 2/2 members being super nasty. After that, it goes like this imo:

2. House Lannister: between Tywin's atrocities and Cersei's cruelties, the best thing you can get is Jaimie's arrogance and Tyrion's frustrating self-pity, who both, despite heroic and humane moments, are pretty terrible people, especially Tyrion, with showing great potential to become a mini-Tywin. (and I'm not even counting Joffrey as a Lannister!) 

3. House Greyjoy : You've got Euron(pure evil), Balon(frustratingly cruel)  and Victarion(a dumb rock who is more that capable of cruelty) , every bit terrible individuals. then you have Aurone, who might be the best Greyjoy despite being a freaking fanatic. Then you have Theon, a prickly, selfish dude, even as Reek, and Asha, who only has the benefit of a very low bar to be counted as the most normal Greyjoy. 

On 3/25/2023 at 2:15 PM, Craving Peaches said:

The slavers are so evil they don't even feel like real people. They are flat, two-dimensional characters for Daenerys to beat, that is it. And there is basically real moral conflict in the battle because the morality is all on Daenerys' side. And they are really incompetent so there wasn't even much of a struggle to beat them. Now I am not saying there are no moral complexities in the Essos storyline because there is, but they all come from Daenerys. We have potentially two ex-slaver characters, the Green Grace and Hizdahr, who say they want reform, but none of the readers seem to believe them so if this was an attempt to give more depth it has failed.

 They would be pure evil even if they weren't two-dimensional, but they would have been less boring to read if they had some depth. I think more than the slavers; it's the slaves that make the slaver bay storyline fall flat. You have a society where absolutely everything is run by enslaved people, including the best martial forces. Still, there doesn't seem to be any history of revolts until a blond teenage girl with three baby dragons comes along?! Give me a break! as I have long accepted that Daenerys is never the one asking history questions, I kind of hoped GRRM had included some history parts of slavers (Volantene and otherwise) in Young Griff's lessons chapter to give us a view on how the slavers had managed to keep such a massive percentage of enslaved people in such a terrible treatment and never have to worry about it. 

I completely agree.

I don't think it's because of the lack of dragons that post-dance Targs seem more interesting; rather, pre-dance Targs are somewhat underdeveloped.

A lot of post-dance Targs (Rhaegar, Egg, Egg's kids, Daeron, and great bastards ) are influential and essential to the recent stories of Dunk&Egg and the main series. Something that inevitably makes them more developed and thought through, if not flashed out.  In comparison, pre-Dance Targs are just a bunch of "mad" women, childbirth-dying moms, and selfish dudes. What has made F&B fun is a combination of alternatives to events and the chance to discuss them with other overly enthusiastic fans on websites like this! not characters, unlike the main series. 

1 hour ago, Tradecraft said:

What's the purpose of Sansa and Catelyn not recognizimg Ned's corpse? 

You tell me. 

umm ... that is supposed to be heartbreaking. period. 

I wouldn't expect a daughter to recognize the lifeless decayed head of her father no more than I expect a wife to recognize her husband's literal bones.

as for Lyanna she is so obviously Jyanna Reed. although in that case, I'd think GRRM is trolling us.

4 hours ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

How will she carry her army over to Westeros ?

with ships of course.

On 3/14/2023 at 12:39 AM, Craving Peaches said:

It does annoy me when him and his high and mighty Aerys-loving friends get so snobby and look down on Jaime. At least Jaime bothered to make a fuss about poor Rhaella.

I agree on Selmy.

in my head cannon, the elder members of kingsgaurd can overlook these things more easily because they remember a less cruel Aerys. though Jonothor and Gerold's explanations about duty to Jaimie indicate that they had those conflicts on their own, ending up thinking they should cling to their vows, which is a cowardly move. then there are younger members, Arthur and Oswel, who were clearly on Rhaegar's side. again, in my headcannon , they must have been like Jaimie when they joined leaving them to readily break their vows to Aerys and hope for a better replacement in Rhaegar.

On 3/14/2023 at 12:39 AM, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t like the Blackfish, I think he’s an arsehole. There, I said it.

yeah, he kinda is . not half as much as his show counterpart though!

10 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Oh I doubt it as well. It is however an interesting thought to entertain that Hoster lacks the Tully Auburn and is constantly away while his children all have Auburn hair like Blackfish, who wouldn't marry and is constantly at home.

that's just an author who kinda forgets one of his big twists includes three kids' hair color! 

but no, I'm still pretty sure that Blackfish is either gay or a rogue . both are rather common in asoiaf's second/third sons: Daemon Targaryen , Oberyn Martell , Renly Baratheon , Tyrion Lannister , Euron Greyjoy, 

there's really no indication of it. the man's a genius psychopath.  I believe him when he says he likes knowledge, he likely has seen and read about zombies and is doing experiments on humans the way scientists do with mice. obviously, a person like that is just as much trustworthy as the Goat and the rest of his party, even less because he is smart. and he'd especially be dangerous in a position of power. Unfortunately, Cersei's stupid enough to put him exactly where he shouldn't be.  

On 3/8/2023 at 1:21 AM, James Arryn said:

I think the good and righteous came first, all the mistakes came when he decided to write a book about them and realized how boring a half-century of no mistakes reads, honestly.

that's probably it. yet, I somehow like Alyssane and Jaeherys's inconsistency. because in the end, they are the conciliator king and the good queen, even if they are bad parents , bad siblings and their conciliation was basically forcing people into an agreement by showing their dragons as a warning that they can be as bad as uncle Maegor.

@King Benedict Justman I , I quite agree with your post. I guess a huge part of this mess was inevitable due to the tight timeline, particularly in Aemma's case. but Alyssane and Jaeherys are hardly good parents in my opinion. frankly, the first time I was pissed off by Alyssane was when she visited Rhaena in Dragonstone after Rhae's ladies had died. 

On 3/8/2023 at 1:56 AM, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

I quite enjoy F&B myself. He's still got room to work with the inconsistency in works yet unpublished if he chooses. Maybe he doesn't see it or see it the same way. I judge people by their kids. It's just something that's borne out in my experience. Maybe his has been different.

 I won't comment on RL (because I agree to a certain extent), but do you realize that in that case, Daemon Targaryen would be the best Targaryen dad?!! 

48 minutes ago, sifth said:

To be fair, she had a rather insane amount of kids. I admire anyone who could raise 3 kids, let alone 13. Not saying this excuses her being a bad mother, but it at least explains why.

see, people keep saying that! but these people did not have to raise their kids themselves. they had plenty of help! besides, we are judging them with their decisions in certain situations. if we were talking about why Baelon , Saera, or Vissera turned out as they did and were blaming J and A for their upbringing , then the number of the kids could have been an excuse. 

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Never occurred to me that Aegon would make it to the end.  Interesting.  

As to Jon + Asha I say Hell Yah!  Jon deserves to have all the fun in life he can and Asha has proven she can deliver.  Great call.  

We've seen the 7 kingdoms etal try to unite and break off independently.  I don't think they know what they want.  United on the same continent seems like a good idea to me in the long run, but they do have to be on the same page.  These players could make it work if they all make it to the end, that is if Sansa doesn't become an ice queen...oh right, fanfic, sorry.  I want to see something united only because Essos is so untrustworthy and menacing and I don't think Westeros is safe unless it is a big united front against all the nuts out there that would expand and colonize.  Westeros by virtue of the few unique and wonderful minds and spirits we see in Sam, Davos, Brienne, Jamie, Asha, Jon, Dany, Tyrion and Sansa, certainly more by the time the whip comes down proves it can be a better place than what it is.  At least there are no slaves, thralls and some black web nastiness, but no legal owning of people.  That alone puts Westeros centuries ahead of Essos at least.  

I hope you mean unique and wonderful spirits in the case of Jaimie, Asha*, and Brienne! not minds! because... while they are good people with good hearts, they are definitely not smart . ... not at all!

*I know we usually say Asha is the smartest Greyjoy(save for mad Euron) and that's true. she's the smartest Greyjoy. rather a low bar if you ask me. 

On 3/6/2023 at 12:42 AM, King Benedict Justman I said:

Do you think the 7 Kingdoms will stay together at the end after the war with the Others and perhaps Cersei or Euron?

 

Personally, I don’t. I’m not suggesting a “Westeros discovers democracy” ending nor do I want the abominations ending. But I expect multiple separate kingdoms at the end. The only way the 7K could stay whole at the end is if Daenerys survives and rules, Jon accepts his Targaryen lineage and rules, or somehow Young Griff makes it to the end.

I see the 7K breaking off into pieces, maybe not like it was before the Conquest, but not staying whole. I see the Trident going to the North, and possibly the Vale if Sansa becomes the powerhouse there I think she will. Iron Islands going independent again, or perhaps merging with the Northern Kingdom if Asha leads them. (King Jon x Queen Asha maybe?) The southern Kingdoms would be in disarray and what happens to them is less clear. They have no real loyalty to another kingdom, so they may split up individually again, but the Tyrells were never royalty so it could be hard for them to declare themselves such. The Lannisters will be in disarray so who knows who will lead them. I suspect Tyrion, which would ironic if Tyrion becomes King of the Westerlands considering how Tywin wanted Lannister royalty but hated Tyrion.  
 

I suspect the Stormlands will follow one of Robert’s bastards, likely Edric, and the Martells, if any survive would probably want to go back to being independent.

I largely agree with the logistics of your post and I ,too, think the way the story is going there may be several kingdoms at the end. probably with North and Dorne each becoming independent and the rest of the kingdoms may be one kingdom together. with the exception of Iron Iselands which I guess may suffer more severe losses and Asha going full Nymeria by the end , grabbing women and children and looking for somewhere they can sow. however, thematically, it seems to me GRRM is making a case for unity through his books. granted this unity may not necessarily be translated to one unified kingdom and rather a few united kingdoms. but if we look at the war of the five kings and RR, the problem isn't that each of the kings' causes or Robert's cause is not just, it's that everyone is getting distracted and humans are damaging each other and starting wars, answering everything with violence, at any given moment(Bran's musings about Men and Singers come to mind). so, I think the way to go for the books is a unified kingdom. and though Targaryens aren't the heros of the story , their reign seems to be the only stable and generally accepted one in Westeros . I doubt any of the Targs survive the series but I expect one of them to leave behind a child whose reign will begin through a regency at the end  of the series. 

I can't express this enough when I say we NEED winds of winter, SOON!

On 2/27/2023 at 11:12 PM, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

The plot will give Aegon a chance to step aside for the rightful heir, Daenerys.  I doubt George will let him remain ignorant of his true beginnings. He is a Blackfyre.  Which gives him some claim to the throne but it is not as good as Daenerys' claim.  Rhaegar died on the Trident while Aerys was still the king.  Aerys named Prince Viserys as his heir.  She is Viserys' heir.  Aegon might contest that and refuse to step aside.  What hurt comes his way will be deserved. 

you people think every character's arc is to choose between serving the true goddess, Daenerys, or standing against her.. don't you?

13 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Do we all think that Bran was going to play a role in the Battle of Winterfell?

yep.. 

17 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

You've thought about this.   It really just barely hit me with all this Ned talk.  It's always how much Cat's daughter Sansa is.  Thanks so much for adding your similarities, it's something to ponder.  I think I'm falling in love with martin all over again.  Choke me 

add to that the obvious : like Ned, Sansa will probably come to her own in the Vale of Arryn . if not alongside Robert Baratheon's daughter being as close as a sister but with Myranda Royce who might be as different from Sansa as Young Robert may have been from Ned. 

of all of Ned's children, Sansa is the most like him in my opinion. it's not difficult to look at Ned Stark and think he might just have been as naive and idealistic as Sansa way before the war. unlike their respective siblings , possessing "wolf blood" , Sansa and Ned are way calmer and have a more straightforward sense of honor than say Jon, Lyanna or Brandon(s) . shutting down bad memories that you wrote is so spot on . makes me wonder if Ned had an un-kiss moment as well . it's worth mentioning that Ned and Sansa are even similar in their relationship with their siblings . where Sansa was more detached from the rest of the Stark kids in mannerism and activities , Ned was literally a world away from his siblings and one would assume consequently never had as strong a bond with his siblings that they did with each other. 

On 2/24/2023 at 2:25 AM, Craving Peaches said:

Also I don't like how we are robbed of seeing the 'Baratheon look' because they all have brown hair and eyes...

yeahsee, when it comes to looks I am mostly disappointed with Targaryens . not only they don't have purple eyes (which although it made them too ordinary, I could live with ) , they changed Daenerys's eyebrows with each new season. what on earth was wrong with her s1 looks? why did they keep darkening those eyebrows????

I think the battles would have added a lot to the book  . Asha , Stannis , Theon , Tyrion , Victarion and Barristan may not end with cliffhangers, but they are definitely incomplete and even pointless to a point. that can easily be said about Quentyn , the constant discussions of lacking a point, and the dragons that never danced in a book called Dance with Dragons. with the battles, numerous POVs would have come together in one place and one of the most boring storylines, Meereen, would have come to a conclusion. which would have made the only two cliffhangers, Dany and Jon's , less frustrating and even fun because you wouldn't have to anticipate the conclusion to all the built up in two books.

4 hours ago, King Benedict Justman I said:

I looked it up. She sold the mother into slavery

ah ... only the mother? what happened to the child? from what I remembered one(or a twin) of Bob's bastards was from a Westerlander mother and it was so insulting that Cersei sold them to slavery... 

19 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

No, I mean she literally ate Robert's semen, referring to each drop(?) as a baby; and that's the only time she took pride in "baby"-killing.

wow! I did not remember that at all! I was like... "ummm... is she talking about the bastards?! eat whaat?!...." lol! 

19 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

The only child murder Cersei is confirmed responsible for is poor Barra. Littlefinger's rumor about the twins she had killed isn't confirmed even in her PoV. Not that I put it past her to have tried, of course, but it is completely wrong to imply she had all of Robert's bastards killed (sixteen total).

Thinking of Cat as weak for not having Jon killed is not quite the same as being proud that she did such with Robert's bastards, especially given the historical context of recognized bastards' children posing a threat to the (supposed, in the case of Cersei's children) trueborn side of the family (e.g., Blackfyre Pretenders). Cersei is vile enough in her own right without attributing unsubstantiated Ramsay-level traits onto her.

Votary , it seems we have to disagree about something yet again!!! ... I think Cersei was quite pleased with herself that she's killed her husband's bastards , including the baby and the one she sold to slavery from lannisport/Casterly Rock) . besides, she wouldn't have to worry about bastards if her children weren't bastards. for all the Blackfyre talk , one of Daemon Blackfyre's biggest advantages was that he was Targaryen on both sides and looked more Targaryen than Daeron or Baelor . Baratheons never had that much purity of blood thing going on and none of Robert's bastards were that highborn , not even Edric Storm , and especially not baby daughter of a 14 yr old prostitute! one would think she has killed those kids to keep her own secret in earlier books . but in book 4 .... I don't know. she might not be a Ramsay level monster but she is definitely vile enough to think that killing a bastard in cradle is the best idea .. not because of political reasons but because they hurt her pride.

5 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

I don't remember Cersei taking pride in killing babies, except for the "babies" that were Robert's sperm. Which she ate, for some reason.

ummm... and there are a LOT of them . didn't she also consider the dead Catelyn Tully a weakling because she hadn't killed her husband's bastard? nothing like smart Cersei , knowing when to kill babies.

3 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

As you know, Aegon IV has legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed to spite Daeron II.

That makes them Targaryen and not Rivers or other bastards names, so why they didn't take it or at least claim it?

because they are self made men/women and they don't need their father's name!!

seriously, what Corvo says + they were all playing nice for Daeron for about a decade. why would they anger him by taking the name Targaryen? they were completely dependent on Daeron's support at that point especially because the eldest was 14 .  

7 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

To me (f?)Aegon is "incarnation" of Pyrrhus of Epirus. Or he will gain some victories. But in the end he will fail bc he will not gain enough support to secure his crown. After all there are many people who do not like either Dorne or Golden Company.

or Targaryens . poor fellow