EggBlue

On 2/25/2023 at 8:13 PM, Craving Peaches said:

I mean Cersei has killed multiple babies but they take it one step further by appearing to take pride in such acts...

if you think Cersei doesn't take pride in killing babies, you weren't paying attention!

24 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

That would be too convenient to my taste, Littlefinger was supposed to be in the Fingers at the time, and he didn't have any real power or influence before Lysa got him noticed and given positions by Jon Arryn. 

wasn't he on his way to the Vale? and wouldn't that be somewhere in the crossroad inn ?  isn't there somewhere that someone like Brandon would like to hold his bachelor party with his buddies -Elbert , Kyle , Glover and so on?

I'd say if there is one naughty teenage boy who would just like poke a wild wolf by exaggeration, spreading rumors, or whatnot, it would be Little Finger. not that he would have "plans" per se, but rather he'd just like to be annoying. of course, annoying a wild wolf and sending him off to a mad Dragon's nest doesn't end well... not that LF would know or care. but it ends up in a devastating war that ends up with the only person willing to help LF in the capital married to the second most powerful man of the realm. not so bad for LF.  he would learn that being annoying might just pay off! .......... of course, none of that can be proven. BUT it can't be un-proven either! 

6 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

This was Jon at fourteen and before his character development.

Furthermore, the circumstances were hardly comparable. Tyrion was definitely being manipulative by design, but all he did to fAegon was imply that Dany might not be as submissive as he would like and that he might not be as perfect as he claims to be, a fairly minor attack on his worldview. On the other hand, he shattered Jon's naïve worldview in the cruelest manner imaginable, telling him about how low his new brothers would be and mocking his bastardry.

Also, this is fAegon now, who will soon be king on the Iron Throne. That seems to be a big problem, no?

yes , that was Jon at 14(though the general consensus in the book is that he's wiser than his age) before his character development. this was Aegon at 18 before his character development.
 I don't see much difference in that regard. the situations are indeed comparable.
 you shouldn't look at it as "oh , well he suggested that Dany might not be submissive" ... NO . as much as Jon's "brothers" and his bastardy is a huge deal for Jon, Aegon's sole purpose in life is important to him. Tyrion didn't just point out that his plans may not succeed. he shattered the boy's bubble completely. Tyrion questioned his identity which is honestly a big deal . not because of inheritance stuff but because of how would you feel if someone comes along and questions everything you know about yourself . then he questioned Dany's willingness to help him which from his answer we know he expects her help because they are kin (his only kin from Targ side at that) , not that it is her duty or that he'd be an amazing king . then T questions his abilities and why anyone should join his cause. then he questions Jon Con (basically his dad) and everyone else's loyalty and questions the success of a purpose he was preparing for his whole life. he also tells him of his dead father's overboldness and what not.  then he tells him he needs to prove himself to the nobles which like it or not works exactly the way Aegon approached it . yeah , it would have been different if Westeros was in a time of peace but it is not at the point Aegon decides to attack. this was surely a well-aimed, well-executed manipulation on Tyrion's part with heavy implications for Aegon.

would this naivety and arrogance be a problem when Aegon becomes king? yes, surely. but he's not Joffrey and from what we've seen he tries to be better. 

5 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

As for fAegon, I don't believe that we're meant to view him the way Varys pretends we are. Never mind the temper tantrum he threw over a board game ("Tyrion can get under your skin" is not a good excuse -- could you imagine any of our PoV characters being that immature at this point in the story, including people as young as Bran and Arya?), never mind that Tyrion himself thinks of Joffrey when this happens (who would know better?): just think of what he has done in the time we've seen him.

I don't think the guy's the perfect king like Varys likes to believe either . but that is not to say Tyrion's assessment of him is correct . in book 1 , Tyrion did the exact same thing to Jon on their way up to Wall and Jon had Ghost terrorized Tyrion for it. sure, Tyrion didn't compare Jon to Joffrey then. but if we compare the two instances with Aegon and Jon, save for Tyrion's position in the whole thing they are exactly the same. two princes showing exactly the same behavior towards a certain (physically) underdog when faced with terrible truths. only Tyrion sees himself in Jon as a bastard,  is generally in a better mood and genuinely wants to help Jon see the truth. with Aegon, he downright tries to make him angry and manipulate him, he himself is in a bad place and doesn't see anything of himself in Aegon . so naturally he thinks about the other prince he knew. 

Unfortunately, I think Aegon is up for a tragic end (probably at the lowest point of the Dream of Spring) too. whether there will be a Dance or not , I do not know ( a boring affair with only 3 dragons), but I doubt he'll survive this series. we can already be sure that another tragedy is waiting for him in tWoW . his father figure has a terrible disease and will go mad. he might have to kill JonCon after a Bells episode or support him and lose all of his kingdoms and popularity... like another Aegon I would say

RE his competence, I don't know. but he's definitely a good kid, well-behaved, generally nice, appreciates competence instead of bloodlines (as appointing Duck as his kingsgaurd shows), albeit a bit arrogant (I'd say not more arrogant or naive than Robb and Jon at the beginning of the series) and shows a hint of sexism in his Golden Company speech (as it is Westerosi way)

5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Of course I am. I'm in Aberdeen, I need to get away ASAP.

run to the Summer Isles 

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

I really think that if Jon is a bastard then their loyalty is to Aerys over him, no matter what Rhaegar said. Rhaegar dies, they would be with Aerys not with his paramour.

we cannot be sure of the Kingsgaurds' purpose even before Rhaegar's death. Arthur was Rhaegar's best friend and Oswell was most likely Rhaegar's man as well . but the White Bull was loyal to the king to the bitter end, remember? and Aerys had named Viserys his heir even when both of Rhaegar's unquestionably legitimate children lived. so , it can't be about that. and besides, Aerys dies about 2 weeks after Rhaegar if I remember correctly. the Kingsgaurd are located in a secret remote spot. for all we know they had received all the news at the same time , not long before Ned's arruval.

6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

wat?

everyone is so serious about the threat of the Others in Britain!

1 hour ago, Loose Bolt said:

Main duties of members of Kingsguard are to protect king, his family and obey all orders given to them by king.

So the fact that 3 KG were still at Tower of Joy when they knew that Aerys II and Rhaegar were dead means that they believed that there was member of royal family or even king inside that tower. After all if Lyanna and Rhaegar were not married those 3 KG would not have any reasons to stay there bc all possible orders given to them by Rhaegar became void when they found out that that he had died.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes, I agree and people seem to overlook this all the time, if Jon was just Rhaegar's bastard those Kingsguard members would have been with Rhaegar at the Trident or Aerys.

guys , you're forgetting something(s) here : a) at that point Jon wasn't born and thus there was no way to know if the baby is a girl (after Viserys in line of succession) or a boy (before Viserys given we assume that R&L were indeed married) ...  b) whether Jon is a bastard or not , he'd be a member of royal family if Rhaegar recognizes him and I guess nothing shouts "this kid is mine" more than abducting(running away with) a woman and keeping her in a love(sex) tower. ... I have my own issues with the Kingsgaurds' presence (and almost half of the order at that?!) and I have come up with some theories of my own. But because of the reasons stated above, I tend to think it's not about a matter of succession if it's about unborn Jon. the easiest explanation is that they were simply there because of Rhaegar/Aerys's orders pre-death and because there was no way of leaving there just yet to get to Rhaella and Viserys . thanks to Jaimie who still feels ashamed and guilty for failing Rhaegar's family despite his order to protect them , we can know that the Kingsgaurd don't just abandon their mission because of the royal's death(unless they are Jaimie) 

wow

5 hours ago, Phileonidas said:

Well, looking only at the A Song of Ice and Fire series, George does look a bit unproductive. But taking all his works into account, he doesn't look that bad, since he did write and publish Fire & Blood, The World of Ice and Fire and that new Targaryen book. So I could imagine (and hope) that it won't take him that long to complete Winds when there's "only" up to 500 pages or 25% left to write.

sorry to disappoint but Fire and Blood is just an expansion of a part of World Book + Princess and the Queen and the Rogue Prince ... so, not that many new materials there. and of course, this last Targ book is just a summary of fire and blood with pretty pictures. I'd say all the credit for that one should go to the artists rather than GRRM!

1 hour ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

Some have speculated that Ashara faked her death and is living as Jyanna (Jyanna rhymes with Lyanna) because she feels guilty about Lyannas death. She lives in grey water watch - a perfect hiding spot because the castle moves and is extremely hard to visit 

I hate that theory.

I mean , at first glance , it seems totally plausible that the crannogman who spent so much time checking out a random lady's dancing partners in a ball has a crush on her . but it honestly ends right there in Harrenhall , whether they made a baby there or not!

first , why the hell would she feel guilty ?! . then , in what kind of world a woman fakes her death to run away and live with her brother's murderer, leaving all of her family and friends behind immediately after the fact at that?!!! and how would the Daynes be so respectful of Ned , the other murderer who also helped Howland take their daughter away to some frozen hell that they name their only child after him?!!!!!!

there are so many things I dread to read in tWoW and yet, I think are quite plausible...

1. Shireen burning

2. Tommen and Myrcella's deaths will be sad either way but I'd especially hate it if it's by the Sand Snakes 

3. Aegon revealing to be a Blackfyre... frankly, I don't like this theory currently! I used to like it but not anymore! 

4. Cersei surviving ... can't bare the woman ... hopefully the Valanquer will take her down in the winds

5. Jon Connington burning down himself and Kingslanding with it , meanwhile damaging Aegon's cause terribly. a catastrophe sounded inevitable from the very first time I read Jon Con's chapter and the show's Bells only make it too damn obvious. but the man's life is so f***ing tragic, I hate to read that happen. 

then, there are some things I'd be seriously disappointed if I don't see happen in the Winds: 

1. Dany must come to Westeros finally

2. there should be more Bran chapters, more Others related stuff and I'd be genuinely pissed if Winds doesn't dive into magical stuff

3. I also want to finally get the answer to Jon's crypt dreams . and No, I do not think it's [only] about his parentage

all in all , this book has a lot to answer and wrap up before the last book and has to seriously make up for the long long wait . 

1 hour ago, Lord Edmure of Riverrun said:

Jyanna Reed is Lyanna!

obviously ... Jon is Craster's son, so Lyanna after feeling all the guilt knowing her family and her savior(aka. Rhaegar Targaryen) had died wished to die on her bed of blood... only... she didn't! she was reunited with her secret crush, Howland Reed, took a new name and extracted two promises from Ned: a/leave her alone b/take away Craster's demon child away...... 

it all makes so much sense!! 

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

How come no one ever thinks Howland Reed is Jon's father?  This is the ONE GUY we KNOW Lyanna was actually really friendly to.  

I know! right?!

honestly, if there wasn't the logical reason that Howland would raise his son on his own, I would have loved this theory so much, because it would be the exact subversion of "the knight getting the girl after defending her honor" trope!  cute! 

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Disclaimer: I would LOOOOOOOVE for Mance to be Jon's father. That said, there's sadly zero support for this idea.

me too!  it's such a shame that most likely even the ages do not fit! 

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Care to share *any* support from the text to back this up?

No? Didn't think so. 

 not much... well not any that shows connections between L and A , but another theory that I personally just like so much! BECAUSE imagine Jon leads the battle for the Dawn with Dawn in hand.... cool, ha?! 

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Jon is Jesus/Anakin. There was no father. Jon was conceived by the powers that be in response to the reawakening of magic. It is Jon's destiny to save the world.

yep! this is known....

On 2/21/2023 at 7:18 PM, Nadden said:

For many of the readers of ASOIAF, the ones  that have spent countless hours exploring and rereading the books, the ones that have spent time on discussion boards and watching YouTube videos, the ones that like to analyze the text, I think I’ve found an interesting parallel.

you make us seem like Rhaegar!

On 2/21/2023 at 7:18 PM, Nadden said:

 

Comparing the second scene in AGOT, Prologue and the second scene in AGOT, Bran 1:

 

In the first scene of the Prologue, the young ranger Will has already reported back to his green commander, Ser Waymar Royce. Waymar, deciding to press on, is quarreling with the older ranger. Dragging Will into the quarrel, he orders Will to tell him again what he saw. All the details. Will, tracking a band of wildling raiders, came upon a camp two miles farther on, over a ridge. He tells the young lordling,

 

 

The lean-to here, a temporary shelter, is likely made of animal hide and branches. Both dead. The hide of a stag is commonly used as the cover for many lean-tos. And  broken tree branches with the small twigs snapped off are placed sloping against, in this case, the rock to support the cover. In this scene the snow has pretty well covered the lean-to. It’s not hard to imagine it as a snowdrift up against a rock. Later, in his head Will describes the rock hard beside a stream as, “the great rock”. There’s a couple sitting up against it.

 

Here’s the quote about the couple,

 

With good chapter symmetry, the imagery here I believe parallels the second scene in the next chapter.

 

There too, we have a huge dark shape hard beside a stream with a snowdrift up against it. And it’s later revealed, when Ned holds it up for all to see, that there’s a foot of shattered antler, tines snapped off in the dark shape. The antler, too me, symbolizes a broken branch with the twigs snapped off. And it’s likely from a stag. A stag with the same hide as the lean-to. With this logic, the dead stag should be under the snowdrift. Were Robb and Bran standing in the waist-high draft right next to the stag? The dark shape is, of course, the dead mother direwolf.

 

The idea of stone direwolves comes up again later. And the antler and branches have both been figuratively associated with swords in both these scenes.

 

So what if, the rock and the direwolf, and the lean-to and the stag, are parallel elements….? Then we can begin to infer Other things…

this was interesting... I should re-read...

1 hour ago, Lord Edmure of Riverrun said:

And it made me laugh. It’s baseless and disgusting, and seems to come from Targ-fanatics that want to make the Starks look as bad as the Targs

yeah ! and might I add it's pretty hypocritical?! like, let's praise Targaryens for incest but the Starks are filthy monsters for incest?! 

I mean, yeah, I agree that Jon is a bastard no matter who his parents are (Not Ned I presume!), so what?!... 

no matter whether he'll be the Last Hero of the series or the Night's King or both (like I suspect), it does not matter whether his parents had sex in or out of wedlock! 

I've heard some fans say Jon should be revealed to be a legitimate son because he has so much trouble with his bastardy. no matter the parentage, Jon is Ned's son and any secret that's revealed will only matter for the character in light of his relationship with Ned. Jon has issues with his bastardy due to his relationship with Ned. now if it's revealed that Ned is actually his uncle who hasn't talked to him about his mother/father for perfectly good reasons and that he has sacrificed his honor and risked his marriage just to keep Jon safe, then Jon's issues with his "father" will eventually be pretty much resolved.

probably the same dreams Aerion had. they both liked wildfyre and they both thought they'll turn into dragons!

you do know Hothar threads have a tendency to get blocked. right?!

33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

From what we know the Dragonstonian Targaryens also styled their boss 'Lord of Dragonstone' although one imagines that the original Valyrian title of Aenar and his immediate successors was differently and eventually translated in this manner into the Common Tongue.

from what we know of pre-conquest Targs, the eldest brother married the eldest sister. it is not clear how the power structure within the island and Targaryen household worked. considering Aegon's shared rule with his sisters despite adapting Andal customs,  it's quite reasonable to think the lord and lady of Dragonstone shared power equally. it's most likely that the nobles in the mainland saw the lord as the real power due to the projection of their own culture . we've seen the same thing in book 1 when Joffrey Baratheon calls for Doran and his eldest son to swear fealty despite the fact that according to AGOT's appendix Arianne was Doran's heir. 

33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Visenya and Rhaenys were the co-conquerors of the Seven Kingdoms and thus shared in his rule - but he was the one charge both before and after the Conquest.

But it did. I mean, Gyldayn cites both Aegon I as Lord of Dragonstone instead of Visenya

this again goes back to the Arianne example. 

33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

as well Rhaena being passed over for Jaehaerys when he discusses Jaehaerys' decision to name Baelon his heir in 92 AC. That Aerea is not specifically mentioned there as well likely goes back to the fact that this section was written before George fleshed out the reigns of Aenys and Maegor.

of course, he does. but as Many-Faced Votary said, passing over Rhaena and Aera was a unique situation. besides, Rogar Baratheon's influence on Jaeherys's coronation should not be dismissed. Rogar , as he later showed, wanted his own monarch. obviously, the boy he had under his roof was the better candidate than a woman he did not know or a child he did not have access to. seems to me Jaeherys' gender only became an asset for Rogar to satisfy Andal nobles and do what was best for him. 

33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The decision for Baelon in 92 AC was very popular with court and Realm alike. There were very few dissenters.

of course it was. they were Andals , Baelon was an adult and he was popular. that is not to say Jaeherys couldn't just as easily name Rhaenys his heir . she would have been accepted because there was no precedent against her position ( instead of Aera who again was in a unique situation) . also, having Corlys, another adult popular and powerful man, by her side and the Baratheon support would have helped her position better . 

33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Alysanne actually seems to have been content with not properly sharing in Jaehaerys' rule. And while she clearly was the smarter one, she may have also been too soft to be a strong monarch in her own right. Rhaena is not wrong when she points out the Jaehaerys that she is Visenya while Alysanne is Rhaenys. Rhaena was clearly feared even by the great lords throughout the Realm - as Rogar Baratheon's decision to not remarry shows. Alysanne didn't even command enough respect with the Archmaesters to get them to accept female students.

yes, but it's not about what Alyssane preferred. it's about what Jaeherys and Alyssane could pull off. Jaeherys and Alyssane seem to be one of the more Westerosi-conventional Targaryens (unless it comes to incest!) . and one would assume living in Baratehon household between the ages of 10-14 (for Alyssane , 8-12) without any influence from Targaryens could be an explanation. notably, although Rhaena doesn't seem to like Queenship and whatever it entails, she is still the one to believe she or at least her daughter should have been queen instead of Jaeherys ; and she is the only one among her siblings who was raised by Aegon and Aenys. 

28 minutes ago, LongRider said:

The Quiet Isle, peaceful, quiet refuge for redemption and reconciliation, or evil cult run by the madman The Elder Brother?   Where the residents of the Isle are not allowed to leave, or even speak, and must keep their heads and faces covered at all times.  They are required to work 18 hours a day for no reward, as the Elder Brother and his sycophant lieutenants sell the fruits of their labor and keep the profits for themselves.  And yet, they pass the Quiet Isle off as a sanctuary for worship of the Faith of the Seven and the haven of so-called broken men.

and that's ta plot for one of those thriller movies! 

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But that wouldn't have ensured that Viserys and Daemon (or their sons) wouldn't challenge the reign of a Queen Rhaenys or her successors. In fact, we don't even know if Prince Baelon would have accepted a Queen Rhaenys after the death of his elder brother Aemon. He was most definitely loyal to him ... but we have no clue how he felt about his niece.

there is always the chance that other branches challenge the succession, especially in this sexist society. but the difference is there wouldn't have been a precedent for passing over women in favor of uncles, so that way Rhaenys's reign would have been far better accepted rather than, say, Rhaenyra's or if Rhaenys was chosen in 101.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

It's not out yet. But if you, EggBlue, don't want me to post it then I won't.

that's very kind of you!

1 hour ago, Ring3r said:

A thread specifically designed to focus and concentrate the hate of the internet on a single point?

Are you mad?  Even worse....are you Kanye?

55 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Why not just avoid the threads?  Most of them seem to be clearly labeled. Some are  joke threads.

I'm hoping we can settle these... disagreements for a while!