EggBlue

On 12/22/2022 at 2:19 PM, Black Crow said:

We’ve been discussing the Song of Ice and Fire for some time [years and years] now of course and with no sign yet of another book have rather run out of material and so that some have turned to a variety of other [generally TV related] things.

you know... ever since I've found this forum , I've admired Heresy people's persistence . that made me think , if (some of) these guys have first read these books before I was even born and still are talking and theorizing about it... well , that means something! I gotta say , to think even Heresy has run out of subjects , especially considering how flexible you guys are with thinking miles and miles outside the box,  is upsetting .

p.s . and George's Casterly Rock post ? I guess someone else has run out of online material too! 

3 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Aeron Greyjoy is awesome.  He can do the kiss of life; never considers himself for the kingship; is fond of his niece Asha; spends his time among humble fisherfolk who represent the non-pirate core of Ironborn culture; continues to defy Euron after 6 months of torture; tries to save Falia; and, when he thinks he is about to die, tries to comfort Falia.  And of course, no godless man may sit the Seastone Chair.

I must say his last act of comforting Falia was one of the more heroic and humane things in the series. yet , he is as thick of a wall and can easily become a fanatic . 

1 hour ago, Gilbert Green said:

I don't believe in worshiping devils, so I don't want to make too much of Mad Euron's badassery.  Nonetheless, between Euron and Victarion, it is clear that Euron is the senior devil, and Victarion merely a junior devil, who thinks he is out for himself, but is in fact merely Euron's puppet.

my real wish for these series is that Greyjoys will be wiped out . it'll probably be a more pleasant world ... maybe Harlaws can take over?

9 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

How many people do you think are going to receive Fire and Blood as a Christmas present this year, read the first twenty pages, and then give up? I feel like that happens every time there’s a successful book-to-screen adaptation.

Fire&Blood is not a very good Christmas present . what is the appeal for a non-asoiaf fan ? ..  

Daenerys Targaryen is NOT a better leader than Jon Snow.

I'd say they're pretty much the same.

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I like Dany, but so often, less is more.  Dany only has six chapters in ASOS but they’re great.  Her first five chapters in ADWD are just spinning wheels.  Her story only comes to life at Daznak’s Pit.

you should tell that to George Martin . it certainly feels like his editing judgement is at times clouded when it comes to Daenerys , Tyrion and (in clash and aSoS ) Arya. the first three Tyrion chapters could easily turn into one . same goes for a lot of Dany chapters.  

Brienne's story in feast suffers from conclusion too, in my opinion . sure , she goes back to Cat and her vow and in Dance she goes to Jaimie ; but both characters needed that final confrontation . honestly , Jon's death and Bran's final vision is enough Cliffhanger for both books .

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

I think Dany’s and Tyrion’s chapters in ADWD could easily have been cut by half, giving space for the two battles.

I agree. I suspect some of the reason for their numerous chapters was their popularity. Dany-cult would have killed George if there were only 3-4 Dany chapters . meanwhile Tyrion spent 3 chapters getting drunk until he joined Griffs.

32 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I mostly enjoyed both books, but they are frustrating.  They’re leading up to a climax that never arrives.

I think the biggest mistake George and his publishers have done  is not including the final battles in the Dance . which I believe might very well hurt Winds too . I mean , that book's gonna start with a conclusion , then it'll start from a beginning point, again! I liked Dance and Feast (as a package) better than the first three books . the first three were fun but most chapters in Dance and Feast were very well written short stories.  however , it is still quite frustrating that the books as a whole feel unfinished . 

7 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

As I understand it, GRRM had this ending in mind for years and years, so he definitely seems happy with it. 

does he though?

doesn't even matter if you're a "gardener" or an "architect" , most often when you have an idea for years , at some point it doesn't seem as good as it was when it first occurred to you . maybe that's one of George's problems with these series . I mean, he himself keeps saying that his characters are going in unexpected ways that even affects some of the things he had told D&D . and that's the point , if he has too many unexpected turns in the journey , the conclusion has to change .

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

 I doubt I will even read Winds when it comes out, especially if it is closer in quality to the last 2 books. 

I'm willing to bet at the worst case scenario you'll read it half way through at first and will go back finishing it after a year or so!

Joffrey . 

I understand why most people find this conclusion dissatisfying . the whole catspaw story line is the most plot driving factor in all the books . it's fair to assume when George was writing aGoT back in the day , he might not have thought of all the details and conceivability of the plan ,making it come off as sloppy.  he may have only thought of the outcome which is basically the events of aSoIaF . whether it was an afterthought , a retcon or the original plan , I personally think Joffrey as the plotter is the smartest answer to the Catspaw Mystery . he's a sadist and  the prince, and annoyance seems reason enough for this character to order murder. besides, he may be the likeliest character to toss a Valyrian steel dagger to a random guy and doesn't recognize it . 

that said, as much as I believe this mystery to be as good as solved in the books , I think if George decides to revisit it , Cersei could be a potential candidate . her denial in front of Jaimie aside , in the case of Blue Bard , Margery and Melara, there are occasions of self-injected delusion and denial in Feast to show she might deny her involvement .

On 12/9/2022 at 9:32 PM, LynnS said:

Have you given up on George then?

to be honest,  I'm not sure.  I don't think I have given up on him completely.  personally I think the last parts of the story would be easier for an author like George to write. still,  I don't feel as excited about his updates as before. 

22 hours ago, Ser Drewy said:

GRRM estimates he's got "about 500 pages" to go. https://www.polygon.com/game-of-thrones/23499159/george-rr-martin-winds-of-winter-finish-release-date-pages

so he's written 1100-1200 pages in over 11yrs and there's just about 400-500 pages to go? should we clap?

17 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

I'm honestly curious as to what those reforms were. Ideas, anyone?

He should've just made Daeron the heir, IMO. All the sons were idiots, but he seems like the best, and with Olenna by his side, he would've been fine. 

And on another tangent, completely unrelated. 

@The Bard of Banefort, I've come to register a complaint for a thread with TWENTY SEVEN pages, while my lily-white threads were locked at 20-21. 

but Daeron also ditched his betrothal. however , since his lover was a guy, he didn't get to marry him or end up in bard songs and history books.

12 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The reverse is true too. In no world were Jaehaerys I (a third-born son), Viserys II (fifth-born son), or Maekar (fourth-born son) supposed to ascend the throne, but they all did well once they did. George seems to like these tropes.

At the same time, I don’t know if we’re supposed to see Aegon V as a bad king. He’s never referred to as one, unlike the other kings you mentioned.

I like Egg and the idea of his reforms.  however, while he wasn't as bad as Aerys and AegonlV,  he might have been as bad of a king as Daeronl and Baelor. his reforms supposedly would've only benefited the commoners,  but even the smallfolk wouldn't remember him as a good king because his plans never happened.  then he pissed more nobles by the marrage aliances fiascos that ended with a pointless civil war that would've likely ended in more resentment from nobles AND snalllfolk,  all the while with the threat of another Blackfyre rebelion looming over the kingdom.  and finally he supposedly got obsessed with the idea of dragons and killed most of his families and a bunch of other people. 

2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

I think Aegon was meant to come off as a lovable loser, who also is a sexual pervert. 

naah. I think they wanted to shout that Aegon's a monster (look Ep9 and 8) , while trying to explain why he's so messed up . 

2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

They did something similar with Daemon, make him a monster but hope people saw the fun loving side to him. 

But for some reason people ignore Daemon's bad stuff but they can't do the same for Aegon. Why is that?

you got me ! I suppose it could be a combination of less screen time for Aegon (would it kill them if they showed Aegon with someone he cares about? say , his kids or his dragon?)  , lack of love interest for Aegon (I bet a lot of love for Daemon is thanks to Rhaenyra's love for him ) and Matt Smith having a bigger fan base and bigger marketing . 

53 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think people prefer Daemon because of his swagger and because of the weird cult around Matt Smith. People love Aemond for his swagger too. The funny thing is, I’d say that Aegon’s actor might be the best-looking in real life, but he carries himself in a much more pathetic way as Aegon.

that's pretty much true . people usually like over confident jerks better than pathetic jerks !

4 minutes ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

While I understand wanting more morally grey chapters, I will think you can be evil, even if not pure evil. I think that sometimes given the right circumstances of birth, nurturing, and nature can create someone as close to pure evil as possible. Someone like Euron, and I also think Aegon IV

I think it's not fair to assume that Aegon IV had always been so different from his siblings and cousins . they all grew up together after all and with the exception of Baelor and Aegon , they all turned out fine .  I'd say he was more of a grey character in youth and turned almost pure evil as time went by to the point he was ready to get rid of his siblings and his "son" all in the same time , not to mention , his treatment of Bethany was his lowest point. we are talking about a kid abandoned by his mother and I dare say neglected by his father who entered a relationship with a 24 yr old at the age of 14 . he definitely had some problems ! it's different with Euron and Ramsay , they show their sociopathic signs early on  and their upbringing doesn't help . (the fact that Victarion is considered the best Greyjoy brother speaks volumes of the fucked-up-ness of Greyjoy household!)

On 11/14/2022 at 6:15 PM, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

After all the injustices of Aegon IV’s reign it’d be really satisfying that his successor was not his son and that his heir was the result of being cuckolded.

me too ! 

and as far as Daemon's situation goes , I think he was right . he was Aegon III's descendant and Daeron's Aemon's son in my head canon . however, I'm team king Daeron because he's the better king , no matter how much of a great guy Daemon was.

On 11/14/2022 at 10:56 PM, nik854866 said:

For some time  now i have doubts that jon is born at tower joy ,many things just dont add up at tower of joy

tower thing seems kinda stupid to me too * . but I neither been able to find good arguments for it nor against it , so, I have decided to ignore GoT's confirmation and wait for  more reasonable accounts of tower of joy and Jon's birth by Martin!

* then again , in the same book that we hear of toj , Cat , a noble lady , travels half of Westeros with only ONE knight . then , perhaps we shouldn't think that hard about any of it 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Lucerys did not get the memo and then it was obviously too late.

 

I'm still hoping for him to get toned down as time goes on.

Hell, if Aegon and Aemond can be toned down... Btw,  Sara Snow is obviously going to be introduced right? I mean, it's the only way to add some spice in Jace's trip but i do not know how are  they going to keep him likeable after he cheats on his bride.

I hope not. at least not as his lover/wife . that's a very very stupid move especially without the excuse of grief that Robb Stark had . not to mention , it'll be out of character . but I think it'll be a good idea for Jace to befriend another bastard and come to terms with that part of himself . he seems troubled about that  (= with the little of him we've seen , they can go that route) 

7 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It’s mentioned in TWOIAF that Viserys wanted Aegon to do more PR but he refused.

yeah , but Viserys also lost that part of himself when Larra left , when he was 16-17 I guess ! so, most of his life he wasn't the charming prince who cared about publicity.

52 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is little chance that the view of Rhaenyra changed overtime considering her descendants sat the throne. That in and of itself should have protected her reputation. Hell, what we should expect is Rhaenyra being turned into a martyred saint by the singers, just as they turned Aegon the Conqueror into a hero king.

I think Rhaenyra never turned into the martyr hero of the songs because neither of her sons cared enough about popularity and perception. unlike queen Rhaenys who knew how to turn herself and her siblings from foreigner tyrants into dragon-god heros through songs .

On 11/10/2022 at 8:19 PM, The hairy bear said:

I don't see any in-universe problem with Rhaenyra not being considered a legitimate queen by the end of the third century.

During Aegon III's reign, why would anyone want to get involved in the discussion of who had actually been the rightful king?! He was the heir of both Rhaenyra and Aegon II, so it was a moot point, but at the same time concluding that either of them had been an usurper would have the ugly implication that half the lords of the realm had been traitors. There was even one of the regents who had declared for both claimants!

And a few decades later... the Targaryen kings would much prefer to paint Aegon II as the rightful king: the idea that a woman could inherit the throne would immediately make the Blackfyre line (through Daenna) as the legitimate one. Even the idea that a king could decide unilaterally over the succession could be seen as dangerous, given that Aegon IV's favoritism towards Daemon.

exactly . obviously , Aegon III didn't need to get into that , especially with two sons as his first and second born children . and later on , it came to Viserys and Daena and if Viserys wished to be legitimate and over his niece at that, it would have been more than foolish to push for Rhaenyra's legitimacy as a ruling queen .

I wonder what Aegon III might have done if his first born was Daena (probably his favorite?) , considering he addressed his mother as queen in the council were he dismissed Manderly and his closeness to his mother ...

It's kinda funny how it's almost a routine that Targaryen princes are promising ,yet, they suck as kings . Aerys II , Aegon IV , Aegon V , Daeron I and Baelor were all alright . Aerys and Aegon's biggest flaws were sleeping around , while Egg , Daeron and Baelor were all nearly perfect . though in the end, they all pulled some sort of madness! Rhaegar could easily be in the same category and if GoT's ending is anything inspired by George's version ,so will Dany's . 

so , I finally watched it!

this was my favorite episode this season , followed (not closely) with episode 1...

the acting and music in this show is just great . no other word necessary for it:) 

focus on Luke this episode was much needed for his conclusion . and Aemond's change fit well within his characterization . another benefit to this was introducing dragons' agency early on , before we get to Syrax and Silverwing .

as long as we are on dragon subject, has there been a more pointless scene in the series that Daemon singing for Vermitor ?!  I can see the benefit in showing Daemon's sole interest(=obsession) as well as his utter recklessness (Vermitor could kill him if it didn't like the song) , but there were so many dragon moments they didn't include that this felt too unnecessary to spend budget on . 

I'm glad they included the choking scene ! I once said mid season that they've already made Daemon so villainous towards secondary characters that if they want it to be believable , he can't always be the "hero" when it comes to Rhaenyra and that Daemon-Rhaenyra ships sucks in that context. and yeah , there it is , they committed to it . of course , this Daemon would hurt her too whenever she has her voice against him and doesn't fulfill his dragonlord fantasy . well done. 

also , how ironic is it that Boros (least Baratheon character of Baratheon book characters) is the most Bratheon-looking Baratheon in GoT universe? !