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Everything posted by GMantis

  1. It's always amusing when people take so seriously a proposal letter GRRM sent thirty years and later renounced, just because of wishful thinking.
  2. And we have a whole paragraph where she's thinking about how her mother won't approve of her appearance and even tries to comb her hair. It's clear that this is also a significant concern for Arya.
  3. Tycho Nestoris was traveling on an official mission by the Iron Bank, accompanied by the Braavos Navy. No one is going to allow some random girl to travel with them - it's not as if it was a regular passenger ship. Now the Faceless Man could probably have arranged for her to be allowed to got to the Wall, but they don't want that. They only offered her to go to Gulltown, Duskendale or King's Landing, none of which are at all helpful in reaching the North. So it's clear that they were not at all sincere when they told her that she could go home and Arya is not so naive as to believe them. And even if there were ships going to Eastwatch, where would Arya get money to buy passage? She isn't being paid a wage and any work she could have outside of the House of Black and White would be unlikely to provide her with more money than what she needs to avoid starving, certainly not enough to board a ship.
  4. No, I don't realize this because it's clear from the context that Arya is indeed concerned that her mother won't want because of her appearance:
  5. Talk about being wrong! Arya can't return to her family. She only has Jon left and no one is travelling to the Wall any longer. She has no choice but to stay with the Faceless Men. Arya also thought her mother wouldn't want her back because she was dirty and her hair was not brushed, so it's clear that her understanding of what her mother thought of her is somewhat inaccurate, to say the least. The Catelyn Stark that dreamed of strangling Cersei and advised to Robb to torture Theon to death is not going to condemn her daughter of wanting people to kill people. As for her father, his understanding of good parenting means that he won't be willing Arya too harshly for what he himself would do without hesitation, which is part of the traditions and culture of their people and when considering what Arya has went through. Again, like most critics of Arya's actions, you're judging her by modern standards, when you'd never dream of doing so for other characters.
  6. I don't see the connection. Yoren was dead when she created her list.
  7. As a loving father Ned Stark would take into account everything that's befallen Arya and while he wouldn't approve of the way she killed Dareon, he would understand her motivation, especially since he himself would undoubtedly have executed Dareon. Her mother would be horrified, but more of the danger that Arya ran in killing Dareon, while understanding why Arya would want to kill people. Jon Snow would certainly not criticize Arya - he lover her too much for that, plus he would wholeheartedly agree with her that Dareon deserved to die and would understand that when killing him, she was trying to act like a Stark - a motivation he would be wholly sympathetic to. Robb Stark would likely disapprove, but then that doesn't say much - he was not particularly close to Arya and had a far more rigid view of the role of women than Jon, so much of his outlook would be colored by prejudice. This is not even close to being true. Arya's purpose in life was to return to her family. Creating a list of people she wished to kill was a way to deal with her trauma rather than something she actively pursued.
  8. Disobeying orders in wartime has been traditionally punished by death. Especially when the one disobeying is high ranking and is deliberately trying to undermine the authority of his superior officer. Janos Slynt got exactly what he deserved for his attempted mutiny. How is it morally reprehensible to save a young girl from a monster like Ramsay?
  9. No, Nymeria will find Walder's huntsmen and administer the punishment they deserve.
  10. In reality, Arya is consistently one of the most popular characters in the series (see for example the two surveys carried out in 2010 and 2015). And the reason for that are all her positive qualities, including (but not limited to) her bravery, determination, loyalty to her family and friends and her readiness to defend those weaker than her. The killing of Dareon is in fact one of the times when these characteristics come to the front: by killing the faithless Dareon who's abandoned both his duty to the Night's Watch and his companions, she asserts both her outlook about the importance of loyalty and her determination to uphold the values of her family. It's no wonder that she reasserts her identity after killing him and it's one of the best signs that she'll never become an assassin but will eventually return to the life of Arya Stark.
  11. No one reads these books with modern sensibilities in mind. If we did, we'd have to condemn all authority figures, including the most benign, as irredeemable tyrants. Arya's killing of Dareon fits entirely with the setting's moral, ethical and political outlook. As for the legal point of view, don't make me laugh. Arya is only in her current position because so many powerfull people trampled over all the laws of the realm, both written and unwritten. If she now has taken the law in her own hands, she's still more devoted to upholding it than the majority of those who are actually supposed to uphold it. Not to mention that she's currently being trained to be an assassin - do they also uphold the law? And all of this won't change the fact that if Ned or Jon had executed Dareon (which they most certainly would) no one would consider it wrong, let alone question their sanity. The double standards involving Arya (and other female characters for that matter) are beyond aggravating.
  12. She's married because Tywin who didn't give a damn about her well-being ordered her married. People who aren't in a hurry to steal her birthright don't think she's old enough to marry even at fourteen. Arya sometimes (not always) acts older than eleven, but certainly not sixteen. I don't agree at all with Sansa and Bran sounding older than they actually are. The only exception are Sansa and Arya's sample chapters from TWOW, but they're likely barely edited from they were supposed to be set after the five year gap.
  13. Catelyn specifically arranged for Arya's marriage with Elmar to be delayed until she was 16. She certainly wouldn't believe that 12 is old enough for Sansa to marry. Not everything has to be stated directly to be clear to the reader, the horrified reaction of Catelyn is enough to express her feelings. Jon outright calls Arya "still a child", so it's certainly incorrect that he doesn't think she's too young to marry.
  14. Not even remotely true. Just for an example, Sansa is considered still not old enough to marry in AFFC. Nor do any of them act like their age should be.
  15. If you ignore the fact that the two are siblings and Arya is nine, I guess you can imagine that the strong affection between them is romantic. Jon wouldn't call Arya "little sister" seven times in their brief time together on page if this relationship was supposed be anything but that between a brother and sister.
  16. If Arya is insane, why would she deserve punishment? And what kind of punishment do you have in mind?
  17. As I already said, he didn't reflect on the other significant events that he would've learned about at the same time as the marriage (like the death of Robb and the disappearance of Arya), so that doesn't mean much regarding his feelings towards the marriage. And Jon thought of Tyrion (he didn't ask about him) in connection with Tywin's murder, not the marriage. You're reversing the chronology of events. Sansa's forced marriage is (as far as Jon knows) already in the past at the time. I don't quite understand your point here. As I pointed out above, Jon thinks only once about Tyrion in ADWD and that was in connection to Tywin's death. It's hardly significant that he didn't think about Sansa at the time (even disregarding that Jon considered her dead), since she had nothing to do with this event. Jon learned nothing in the intervening period to change his belief about her being dead. Asserting Sansa's right to Winterfell isn't a contradiction - since it's not definitely known whether she's dead, Jon is correct in pointing out that she is the rightful heir. Your final quote is completely out of context. Jon had no reason to think that Arya was dead in ACOK. Before he went north on the ranging, he had not received any news about Arya and had only Mormont's guess that Arya and Sansa were being kept as hostages in King's Landing, so this is what he thought had happened at the time. He would have received the information that led him to believe that Arya was dead only after the arrival of Stannis at the Wall. I think we're getting sidetracked. Of course Jon was closer to Arya and Robb than to Sansa. But I think it's rather clear that your specific comparison about Jon's thoughts on the two marriages simply isn't valid.
  18. This is not really a fair comparison. The earliest time Jon could've learned about Sansa's marriage to Tyrion was at the same time as he learned about Tyrions' arrest and her disappearance, so there was never even an opportunity to reflect on the marriage. Furthermore, at the same time he also learnt about Robb's death and about Arya's disappearance. He thereupon concluded that both of his sisters, like his brothers, were dead: And apart from this moment, he never reflects on any of these deaths - even Arya's. So what Jon reflects about or what he's shown reflecting about is not at all a good guide about his true feelings. Of course, Jon later learned that Arya was alive, but he never received any information to reconsider his belief that Sansa was dead. See how he remembers her alongside his dead brothers after receiving the pink letter. So when Jon thinks about Tyrion in ADWD, it's reasonable to believe that he simply doesn't associate him with the sister he now believes dead. In conclusion, Jon is obviously immensely more concerned about the current marriage between the living Arya and the monster in human form Ramsay than he is about the marriage between the dead Sansa (as far as he knows) and Tyrion who he considered a friend. But this says nothing about his attitude towards either sister. We would know about this only if we knew his reaction to Sansa being married to Ramsay, which is an interesting hypothetical but obviously can't happen in canon. She's described as dark haired - a rather vague term, since it could mean both black and brown haired, and as having blue eyes. So you could more easily argue that Tysha is described similarly to Sansa
  19. If the question is supposed to be serious, Jon and Arya without any doubt. They demonstrate perfect understanding and acceptance between them.
  20. The text doesn't make clear anything about long term health effects since the maester fails to explain these effects (except nose-bleeding which is not present). The sample chapter is hardly convincing evidence for your theory either since there is no evidence that Sansa is involved in administering sweetsleep to Robert at this point (it's "Maester Coleman would have made certain that he drank a strong dose of sweetmilk", not "she had made certain that he drank a strong does of sweetmilk"). There isn't even any indication that less than six months have passed since the last time Robert was given sweetsleep. Again, both of them would realize that after they themselves played the game of thrones with Sansa as their tool, they have no room to criticize their daughter for following in their footsteps. There is nothing disingenuous in Sansa's behavior, Harry is well aware of what she's aiming for. And Sansa's ultimate aim is exactly the same as what Ned was aiming for when he betrothed her to Joffrey - a marriage with political benefits. But apparently this is only honorable when the potential bride has no role whatsoever in arranging the marriage... Sansa certainly loves being in the Vale rather than being a hostage in King's Landing, this is obvious. But to go from there and imagine that she prefers being in the Vale than in the North is simply misinterpreting the text. I've given you a very clear quote and you're twisting it beyond recognition to claim it means the opposite of what it actually means. The present and the memory are not interchangeable: she forgot her present while thinking of the past, it's clear what is ultimately dearer to her. And all this criticizing others for ignoring the text is especially ironic, when you consider that your favorite theory relies on Sansa returning to King's Landing on her own free will. Because if there can be a dispute as to whether Sansa is happier in the Vale than in the North (though the text rather obviously indicates the later) there can be no dispute that for Sansa King's Landing represents nothing but a nightmare. If she can't stay in the Vale any longer, she'd always choose to go North (even if it means going to the Wall), rather than return to the capital.
  21. This is a curious statement, considering that your comment shows little comprehension of the text as well. Sansa is relying on the medial advice of Maester Colemon and he failed to explain the long term effect of sweetsleep usage, then conceded that, absent the dangerous symptoms of nose-bleeding, it could be used twice more as long as it wasn't used again for half a year. So it certainly can't be concluded that Sansa is prioritizing the "political needs of poisoning Robert" because it hasn't been established at all that she has reason to believe that she's poisoning him. Furthermore, it's made clear that while continuing to take sweetsleep may be bad for Robert's long term health, falling of the mountain is obviously is even worse for his short term health. And drugging him into sleep and then dragging him down the mountain like "a sack of barleycorn” is not particularly good for Robert's long term's prospects either - such weakness could well encourage usurpation against him. And since we're talking about comprehending the text, the short passage where Sansa herself led Robert across a narrow and perilous mountain saddle while he was on the verge of a shaking fit certainly seems to disprove the idea that she's unconcerned about his safety. So basically Sansa is dishonorable because she's helping arrange the political marriage herself - with the only tools she has available - rather than have her male relatives do so for her? Meanwhile, her father betrothing her as a cover for his investigations and her brother lamenting that he didn't get to sell her for Tyrell troops is supposed to be the height of Northern honor... And no, there is no dishonesty - it's obvious to both her and Harry what she's trying to do. Again, considering all your accusations about others ignoring the text, it's really funny how you use this precise moment as evidence that Sansa is loving where she is now and is no longer longing for the North. In fact, she clearly loses herself not in running around, but in her memories of Winterfell: Yes, there is no doubt that Sansa is adapting herself towards her current situation. It's certainly true that she's happier than she's been since her father's death. which of course is damning with faint praise, considering all she's been trough. But your claim that nothing is drawing her to the North simply can't be supported by the text.
  22. On the other hand you're starting from the point of fitting the text after your theories rather than the other way around. GRRM choosing words very deliberately and meaningfully is precisely why he wouldn't have Sansa use a phrase that is also used by multiple other characters if he wanted to highlight her similarity with Cersei. You're not really in the position to accuse others of ignoring the text if you're seriously going to make this claim, as it requires a ridiculous level of text misinterpretation. Claiming that Sansa is poisoning Robert requires ignoring the fact that she learned about the plot to replace him with Harold Hardying only after she administered the sweetsleep. Cat and Ned would realize that, due to their mistakes, their daughter is in a position where she has to conceal her identity to survive. Also they would recognize that they have little room to criticize Sansa considering that far from "acting contrary to the values of her parents", she's in her current situation because they themselves betrothed their daughter to Joffrey for political expediency: Ned wanted Sansa to marry Joffrey just to help him expose the Lannisters and yet he's supposed to be horrified by Sansa charming Harry?
  23. About the ancient Starks there is material in A World of Ice and Fire: In fact the older title is not forgotten: Maege Mormont salutes Robb as King of Winter. It's not in Jon's character to take titles that don't belong to him. He'll be content to be regent to Rickon and hold all power in fact, if not in name. Arya has in fact expressed a wish to reunite with Sansa a few times: As for Lady Stoneheart, I don't see why Arya would want to kill her mother. She wanted Thoros to bring back her father, even after she saw the effect of his resurrection. And she pulled out her mother from the river while warged in Nymeria. As has already been pointed out, she didn't betray her father. And you say that you're not ignoring her development, yet keep doing exactly that. As if the Sansa who wanted Cersei's help is anyway comparable to the current Sansa, so that her character stood for at the time is any reflections on her current outlook. It's not correct to say that her character was pointed south as early as the first few chapters of the first book, rather her character was pointed south only in the first few chapters of the first book. As early as her sixth chapter we have: Yes, her everyday thoughts are now on the political game. But this is what is important for her now, in her day-to-day life. And she considers her home and family to be hopelessly lost: Winterfell sacked, her parents and siblings (except Jon, unreachable at the Wall) all gone. So not surprisingly, she avoids thinking about this. And yet consider just her last chapter (the sample chapter in Winds): even amid all the work she's putting in working on her and Littlefinger's schemes, the memories of Winterfell and her family still keep surfacing. And if going home ever becomes realistic, everything shows that this part of her character arc will again come center stage. Petyr Baelish has no power base in the Riverlands. He could only serve there as the figurehead for the Lannister regime. which is already shaky and looks likely to continue losing ground. And the last thing Sansa would want is to be in a place dominated by the Lannisters. As for the Vale, as I pointed out, Lilttlefinger's (and by extension Sansa's) powerbase there is far from secure, his grandiose plans dubious. Sansa may yet play some role in the politics of the Vale, but she's unlikely to get in a leading position there; rather it's more likely that she'll use whatever influence she gains into rallying support for the North among the Vale lords. And if Sansa doesn't really want to go home, what does she truly wish for? Apart from thinking that she'd be a better queen than Cersei, there is no yearning, no hope for gaining power - even now when she's becoming involved in political maneuvers. Even the fact that she's been disinherited in the North should not change that: Sansa would almost certainly prefer to live disinherited in Winterfell under her brother's rule rather than enjoy whatever dubious power she has in the Vale. This might even be a relief for her, since she won't pursued just for her claim. And she might not even lose power in the North. The Will could easily be set aside, since the circumstances now are vastly different from those when it was written. Sansa is no longer a captive of the Lannisters,Tyrion is a fugitive pursued by those same Lannisters, the marriage could be set aside, etc. And Bran and Rickon might not return for a long time as well. This would explain how you've managed to miss so much about her character...
  24. Considering the long discussion in this very thread (see pages three to four) where a poster refused to accept the plain meaning of a simple statement because it made Sansa look better, perhaps this is an accusation you should not throw out so lightly. Sansa might have picked up the phrase from Cersei, but it's just as possible that Sansa (as the other five characters using this phrase) was using it to describe someone little acting foolish. Why is the former more likely than the later?
  25. Cersei is far from the only one to use this phrase. Seems to commonly occur (obviously) when someone little (either by size or age) is acting foolishly. If this is evidence supposed to show how Sansa is becoming like Cersei, it's far from convincing.
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