GMantis

Roose Bolton definitely didn't know or he wouldn't have left her behind at Harrenhal as he planned to do.

Two obvious examples which I think haven't been mentioned yet:

• Tyrion not getting rid of Littlefinger when he knew that he had framed him and when his father had given him a free hand to deal with all traitors to the Lannisters.
• Stannis  ignoring the huge Tyrell army assembled at Highbridge and assuming it would remain neutral.

5 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

She is making him temporarily more pliant to the detriment of his long term health, as has been explained to her, which is the purpose of the storyline.

Not really. What was explained to her was that Sweetrobin could be given two more doses as long as he wasn't given any more in six months, so as far as Sansa knows he's not currently in danger of suffering long term effects.

On 10/23/2022 at 5:24 AM, Hugorfonics said:

Sansa doesnt care about Mycah. She probably doesnt even remember he existed, but if she did she could have said something in his defense, unlike Dunk Mycah never got a trial.
Shes the main character of asoiaf, most stuff is because of her. Like the entire date going badly, she definitely didnt help any situation. 

She said something in his defense by telling her father how Joffrey started the fight by attacking Mycah. After that it's out of her hands - she can't stop the queen from sending men to hunt after Mycah when even her dather couldn't.

And of course, she wasn't to blame for the incident in the first place. It's not her fault Joffrey was a sadistic bully.

On 10/23/2022 at 5:24 AM, Hugorfonics said:

asoiaf

Which shows Cersei consistently as shortsighted and rash, often to the level of irrationality.

On 10/23/2022 at 5:24 AM, Hugorfonics said:

I said Jaime doesnt think and often guesses incorrectly about which Stark child she wants killed. Jaime woulda killed her sure, but I dont think because she ordered it or anything.

There is no ambiguity whatsoever here. I don't understand how one can interpret this scene otherwise.

On 10/23/2022 at 5:24 AM, Hugorfonics said:

Unbelievable? 
I said Cerseis not to blame for mycah which is true, I never absolved Jaime of anything.

It's unbelivable that you're absolving Cersei when she at the very least sent the men after Mycah, while blaming Sansa against all logic.

On 10/23/2022 at 5:24 AM, Hugorfonics said:

If Ned cared he could have sent men to look for Mycah, instead he didnt think twice

The last king ordered Ned to kill himself, he didnt do it. This king is evidently just as nuts/weak and Ned shoulda taken his kids and peaced the fuck out of there right then, with two breathing direwolves following

It seems too nuts to me, even for Cersei. Jaime on the other hand, lol

On 10/23/2022 at 6:20 AM, Roswell said:

Sansa kept the truth and stayed silent to back Joff.  Guilty.

Except that Mycah was already dead at this point. I'm amazed at how many blame her when the course of events couldn't be any more clear.

6 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

As to Sansa, contradictory things can be true. I believe she is slowly poisoning Sweetrobin, and deep, deep down she knows that he is being poisoned. I don't believe she wants him to die, and she appears to sincerely think that what she is doing will benefit him in the end. That said, Sansa has a real failing in her tendency for denial. It's too painful to contemplate that Sweetrobin is dying, so she deludes herself that he's just fine. It's even more painful to admit that he's dying because she is poisoning him, so she tells herself that actually the sweetsleep is helping him get better, somehow.

Sansa does have such a tendency, but the fact remains that the last time she gave him sweetsleep was before she learned of Littlefinger's plot about her marrying Harrold Hardying. At that time, it would make no sense for Littlefinger to want Sweetrobin dead, since his whole power rested upon being his Lord Protector, so Sansa would have no conceivable reason to believe he was being poisoned. She might be closing her eyes about him being poisoned after that but this isn't the same as poisoning him herself.

First of all, the last time Sansa gave Robert sweetsleep, it was with a maester's permission (A Feast for Crow, chapter 41: Alayne II):

Quote

“Just give him a cup of the sweetmilk before we go, and another at the feast, and there should be no trouble.”

“Very well.” They paused at the foot of the stairs. “But this must be the last. For half a year, or longer.”

Second (and following from the first) she can hardly be part of a plot to poison Robert when she learned of the plot only after administering the sweetsleep - she only learned of Littlefinger's plan after they went down from the Eyrie, where the above conversation happened.

Third, Sansa definitely doesn't want Robert to die (The Winds of Winter, sample chapter: Alayne):

Quote

If the gods are good and he lives long enough to wed, his wife will admire his hair, surely.  That much she will love about him.

So it's clear that Sansa isn't participating in any plot to kill Sweetrobin. At most you can accuse her of pretending not to notice others poisoning Sweetrobin, but there is hardly any evidence to reach such a conclusion.

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

What's not bizarre but tiresome is how people get a hate on characters and dismiss all depth despite obvious contrivance by the author. I stated Sandor is to blame, as he is, it was the point of my post that he is, it's important that he is to blame (and not how whitewashing works) as he needs to be flawed so that his experiences may correct it, he has an arc. Sandor killed and took pleasure in it because it is a bullying scenario mirroring that of his younger self and Gregor, it is a quite clear contrivance of the author that one paying attention shouldn't need pointed out to them, but thankfully for those who missed it now it has been. Ignore it and continue to miss the point as you wish, but you can't say you weren't told.

Again, this interpretation is simply not plausible. Even disregarding the fact that Joffrey would be barely younger than Mycah and likely bigger than him, Sandor is smart enough to know that Joffrey is almost certainly the initiator, since he knows well that he's a sadistic bully.

17 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

She could have gone straight to Robert before court. I put Sansa on the bottom because deserves the least blame out of the group.

This is literally grasping at straws. Just the last post you were claiming that Mycah was killed because Sansa refused to support Arya's version of events. Now that this has been exposed as the nonsense it is, you're inventing a fantastic version where Sansa should have thought to go to the king (which is not her place to do, since her father is there) to prevent an event she had no way of knowing could come to pass and which she would not have been able to prevent in any case. Why would Robert knowing about Sansa's version of events stop Cersei from sending Sandor and her other guards after Mycah and Arya? Even if Robert believed this version of events, Cersei would always claim that Joffrey said otherwise. Robert would not make the effort to stop them.

So why is it so hard to admit that Sansa was innocent here? This obsession with blaming her for events she could not possibly be guilty for is really bizarre to me.

21 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea... That probably didn't happen. It's not smart politics .

Who said Cersei was smart?

27 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Things I do for love. Lol, it's more like one specific thing, right?

It's probably just Jaime assuming he knows Cersei wants because he's just a walking sword who doesn't think things out.

She probably was going to say I want Nymeria but had to settle for Lady, I doubt Lannister would risk it all over Arya

Why are you omitting the next part? Perhaps because it completely refutes your claim?

Quote

"It was only by chance that Stark's own men found the girl before me. If I had come on her first . . ."

In the same post you invent a wholly spurious construct to somehow accuse Sansa of being complicit in Mycah's death, you're blatantly misquoting material to whitewash an attempted child murderer, who by his won admission would have tried to murder another child. As I said, unbelievable...

3 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

The bigger question is what would have happened to Arya.  Given she's The Hand's daughter the guardsmen and even The Hound would be unlikely to go so far.  But given Cersei specifically argued with Robert to cut off Arya's hand it seems likely she took his refusal badly and persuaded Jaime to kill her instead.

I think we can trust Jaime own assessment of the situation. At that point in his life he was content to be led by Cersei and do . anything for her in the name of loveThe only question is whether he'd only cut off Arya's hand or kill her.

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

I agree that Jon's own good relationship with his siblings would colour his thoughts. I just thought the quote was relevant enough to include because it was a vaguely similar situation. Obviously there are differences but I do believe they were intended to be compared.

I imagine that if Jon learns about what happened to Viserys before he met with Daenerys, he would be appalled and this would influence their interaction. We already have a preview of Arianne's reaction to the same information. Though Arianne's not close to her brothers, in fact resenting Quentyn, she was still shocked and began to have doubts about Daenerys - despite needing her as an ally. Jon I imagine would react even stronger.

But Jon's thinking, like that all of characters, is not objective or based on complete information. So we shouidn't judge characters just on what other characters think of them. For example, we know that Jon is right to be contemptuous of Axell Florent, but this is not because Jon was appaled at his behavior, but because we know that Axell was a power-hungry opportunist.

Not at all. Ned had already revealed to Cersei that he knew about the incest, so she knew that she could not allow him to take over the regency. Ned had already ordered Littlefinger to deliver him the Gold Cloaks, so that Littlefinger betrayed and delivered the Gold Cloaks to Cersei, meaning that she would win any confrontation with Ned. And since Ned could never allow Joffrey to ascend the throne, the confrontation was inevitable. Sansa can't even be blamed for allowing herself to be captured (which later led to Ned's confession and his execution), since if she hadn't gone to Cersei she'd be in the Tower of the Hand and captured there like Jeyne Poole was.

It's true that if Sansa hadn't gone to Cersei Arya had a small chance of escaping by boat. Then again, without being forewarned by the attempt to seize her, she might have been captured on returning to the Tower.

On 10/18/2022 at 5:11 AM, Quoth the raven, said:

Did she betray her father to Cersei?  Yes.

Betrayal is a conscious act, you can't betray someone accidentally. Sansa had no idea that she could endanger her father, so she's not guilty of betrayal.

On 10/18/2022 at 8:34 AM, Thandros said:

It depends on how much the information really encouraged Cersei to move up her plans by which I think the answer is a couple of hours at most if that. The Stark departure can't have been too well hidden from Lannister watchers and it's likely Cersei was going to move quickly after Robert's death to purge the Starks from King's Landing anyway so it probably wouldn't have made a difference at all if Sansa hadn't spilled the beans to Cersei. She simply ensured that the Lannisters would have one hostage locked away before the fighting rather than after it.

Since Cersei struck as soon as Robert died (according to Ned the obvious thing to do), Sansa's information was irrelevant in the timeline of events.

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

That’s your assumption to make, but the fact is, we’ll  never know. It’s not in the text, no one talks about it or thinks about it. 

It's entirely fitting in Cersei's character. She's extremely vindictive, to the extend of killing a baby because she was Robert's bastard. I don't see why she would be any more merciful towards to a boy who dared to hurt her precious Joffrey.

Of course it's not just Sandor. Cersei is the main culprit, since she ordered his murder whileJoffrey also bears some responsibility since he lied about their encounter and claimed Mycah had attacked him.

On 10/20/2022 at 8:04 PM, kissdbyfire said:

But the lion’s share of the blame goes to the Hound b/c he wasn’t ordered to kill Micah, and even if he had been, he’s an adult with free will who made the choice to kill a child. 

Of course she ordered the killing. She ordered Jaime to kill or main Arya, she certainly wouldn't leave a common boy unpunished.

On 10/21/2022 at 4:05 AM, chrisdaw said:

Sandor knows what Joffrey and Cersei are (and if he didn't by now he should, but he does), but in that instance he didn't stop to think, maybe didn't want to think. He was told a story of a bigger kid bullying a littler kid (Joffrey is older but smaller) and his mind went to a young Sandor being bullied by young Gregor and he saw red and took pleasure in acting out his revenge fantasy. When Arya speaks to what happen he comes to understand and believe it because it rings so true, he killed the victim for the bully.

It's bizarre how some people are willing to twist everything to whitewash their favorites. It's precisely because Sandor knows Joffrey that he would easily guess that Joffrey is lying. Simply put, Sandor doesn't give a damn. He's been ordered to kill, so he kills.

On 10/21/2022 at 4:42 PM, Hugorfonics said:

6. Sansa. She did know the truth, as she told her dad the real story, however when court came days later the alcoholic and traumatizing experience of this preteen probably got discombobulated with the facts and her feelings, thusly she says Idk, or I dont remember, which I think is honest. Disappointing but honest
(I wish I could blame Cersei, but I just cant. I mean, its all that stupid Targaryen rule about chopping off Dunks foot. Blame the game, not the players. (although Ned and Robert were in position to change the rules of the game so....)

This is unbelievable. Have you actually read the chapter in question? Sandor arrived with Mycah's body, blood already dried, without having any idea what had happened at the confrontation at the castle. Nothing, absolutely nothing Sansa did could have saved Mycah. And yet you're claiming Cersei is innocent! The same Cersei, which ordered Arya to be killed (or at least maimed) would leave someone like Mycah alive?

Viserys earned his death in three different ways - by taking out a sword in a sacred place where that is forbidden, by threatening Drogo's wife and by demanding her back (without the unborn child). For each of these, Drogo could have easily killed him on the spot, unless he was particularly merciful (and merciful people don't become Khals). Combined and he'd have to do it just to avoid losing face - no ruler, especially a Dothraki one, could afford to be insulted in such manner in his own hall. So Viserys was completely doomed and Daenerys could do nothing about (especially after she did everything in her power to try to saver him). And not translating Viserys' words wouldn't work - Drogo had other translators, like Jhiqui (Daenerys only offered to translate to save her from Drogo's wrath).

8 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

As some food for thought, I will provide Jon's thoughts on a similar matter.

Jon's perspective is heavily colored by his circumstances of having five loving siblings. When he thinks of a person sitting by while their brother is burned alive, he imagines himself in the same situation and since he would never stand by and allow his siblings to be murdered in front of him, he can't understand another person doing anything else. I really doubt he would hold the same perspective about Daenerys if he knew how Viserys had treated her. Just how he understood that the best choice for Craster's daughters was to kill him, so would he understand that Daenerys could do nothing about her brother.

14 hours ago, Rondo said:

Sansa is the next of the Starks to die. 

Why do you think so?

14 hours ago, Rondo said:

 

 

I am convinced now that Ghost will live until the last chapters of the last book.  Ghost is how Jon Snow will return from death.  Bowen and the Crows killed Jon and he will come back inside Ghost.  He can come back as a wight with his mind inside Ghost but his body is not going to last long.  Either way, Ghost is what Jon will be.

Melisandre's vision of seeing Jon as a man, then a wolf, then a man again implies that he'd return to his body after being resurrected.

On 8/28/2022 at 8:04 AM, Bowen 747 said:

Sansa supported/backed Joffrey's lie and betrayed the Northern lad.  Little Mycah's death is partly her fault. 

While the rest of the post is ridiculous as well, this sentence really stands out in its sheer absurdity. Perhaps Cersei called Sandor on his cell phone and asked him to kill Mycah when she heard Sansa's lie?

18 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

George planned for five characters to survive to the end.  Sansa is not one of those five.  Sansa will be the next of the Starks to die. 

It's always amusing when people take so seriously a proposal letter GRRM sent thirty years and later renounced, just because of wishful thinking.

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Good lord.  I see you missed some of the full quote:

A Storm of Swords - Arya VII

Arya didn't know how much Robb would pay for her, though. He was a king now, not the boy she'd left at Winterfell with snow melting in his hair. And if he knew the things she'd done, the stableboy and the guard at Harrenhal and all . . . "What if my brother doesn't want to ransom me?"

 

"Why would you think that?" asked Lord Beric.

 

"Well," Arya said, "my hair's messy and my nails are dirty and my feet are all hard." Robb wouldn't care about that, probably, but her mother would. Lady Catelyn always wanted her to be like Sansa, to sing and dance and sew and mind her courtesies. Just thinking of it made Arya try to comb her hair with her fingers, but it was all tangles and mats, and all she did was tear some out. "I ruined that gown that Lady Smallwood gave me, and I don't sew so good." She chewed her lip. "I don't sew very well, I mean. Septa Mordane used to say I had a blacksmith's hands."

 

It's quite clear that what is on her mind are the things she has done as this is exactly what she is thinking before she asks her question.  When queried she can hardly say this so responds with how her mother would disapprove of her appearance.  This is evasion on her part and the substitution of superficial and childish hence plausible concerns for her real ones which she can hardly give voice to.

 

And we have a whole paragraph where she's thinking about how her mother won't approve of her appearance and even tries to comb her hair. It's clear that this is also a significant concern for Arya.

7 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Uno reverse card or something:

Neither the Kindly Man, nor Arya thinks she can't go home, like it or not. And unless Tycho Nestoris was using his wings to fly to the Wall and the talk about 3 ships accompanying him was fairytales, there were ships that could've taken her directly to the Wall, not to speak of ways that don't directly lead there. And a semi-trained Arya could leave Braavos whenever she wants to, that is for sure. She could aquire the money for it. I do not apply modern standards on her. I was looking at what her family would think of her, and since the gap between our opinions is so big, I suggest not to continue this conversation, once again.

Tycho Nestoris was traveling on an official mission by the Iron Bank, accompanied by the Braavos Navy. No one is going to allow some random girl to travel with them - it's not as if it was a regular passenger ship. Now the Faceless Man could probably have arranged for her to be allowed to got to the Wall, but they don't want that. They only offered her to go to Gulltown, Duskendale or King's Landing, none of which are at all helpful in reaching the North. So it's clear that they were not at all sincere when they told her that she could go home and Arya is not so naive as to believe them.

And even if there were ships going to Eastwatch, where would Arya get money to buy passage? She isn't being paid a wage and any work she could have outside of the House of Black and White would be unlikely to provide her with more money than what she needs to avoid starving, certainly not enough to board a ship.

15 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

You realise Arya says this because she doesn't want to admit to killing people, I trust.  Her real concern is what Catelyn would think of her slitting a Northman's throat at Harrenhall, not that she hasn't combed her hair. 

No, I don't realize this because it's clear from the context that Arya is indeed concerned that her mother won't want because of her appearance:

Quote

 “What if my brother doesn’t want to ransom me?”

“Why would you think that?” asked Lord Beric.

"Well," Arya said, "my hair's messy and my nails are dirty and my feet are all hard." Robb wouldn't care about that, probably, but her mother would. Lady Catelyn always wanted her to be like Sansa, to sing and dance and sew and mind her courtesies. Just thinking of it made Arya try to comb her hair with her fingers, but it was all tangles and mats, and all she did was tear some out.

38 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I think you just simply said the truth here. Arya's purpose in life was to return to her family, and the list was a way of dealing with her trauma. But that's not the case anymore, she stayed and is staying at the HOBAW because that's what she wants to, altough she could've returned to her family already.

Talk about being wrong! Arya can't return to her family. She only has Jon left and no one is travelling to the Wall any longer. She has no choice but to stay with the Faceless Men.

38 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Half of this is wrong, the other half doesn't make sense. 

I began writing down examples to draw a similarity between them, but I realised how gross it is that I have to go into such details. It's insane, actually. But to say something that's actually an argument, I think you have a one-dimensional understanding of what good parenting is, based on your comment. And it's just funny how you think her family would be fine with this, when even Arya herself used to think how bad would her mother think of her if she knew the things she did.

Let's agree to disagree tho, I have no interest in having this conversation, it just makes my head hurt.

Arya also thought her mother wouldn't want her back because she was dirty and her hair was not brushed, so it's clear that her understanding of what her mother thought of her is somewhat inaccurate, to say the least. The Catelyn Stark that dreamed of strangling Cersei and advised to Robb to torture Theon to death is not going to condemn her daughter of wanting people to kill people. As for her father, his understanding of good parenting means that he won't be willing Arya too harshly for what he himself would do without hesitation, which is part of the traditions and culture of their people and when considering what Arya has went through. Again, like most critics of Arya's actions, you're judging her by modern standards, when you'd never dream of doing so for other characters.

3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

You can thank Yoren for putting that idea in her head.

I don't see the connection. Yoren was dead when she created her list.

18 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

How about we take Ned Stark's perspective on this thing? What would he say if he heard all the details, the deeds of her daughter and the reasons behind it? What would her mother think? What would Jon Snow think, or Robb Stark? Anyone ever close to her? 

As a loving father Ned Stark would take into account everything that's befallen Arya and while he wouldn't approve of the way she killed Dareon, he would understand her motivation, especially since he himself would undoubtedly have executed Dareon. Her mother would be horrified, but more of the danger that Arya ran in killing Dareon, while understanding why Arya would want to kill people. Jon Snow would certainly not criticize Arya - he lover her too much for that, plus he would wholeheartedly agree with her that Dareon deserved to die and would understand that when killing him, she was trying to act like a Stark - a motivation he would be wholly sympathetic to. Robb Stark would likely disapprove, but then that doesn't say much - he was not particularly close to Arya and had a far more rigid view of the role of women than Jon, so much of his outlook would be colored  by prejudice.

18 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

When Ned Stark talked to Bran about carrying out King Robert's justice, he said a man shouldn't find joy in it. Meanwhile Arya set herself and the purpose of her life to kill and avenge people.

This is not even close to being true. Arya's purpose in life was to return to her family. Creating a list of people she wished to kill was a way to deal with her trauma rather than something she actively pursued.

On 6/12/2022 at 3:43 AM, Darth Sidious said:

Justice! Jon is not going to bring justice. Janos Slynt didn’t get any justice from Jon. Jon misused and abused his authority to murder his family’s enemy.

Disobeying orders in wartime has been traditionally punished by death. Especially when the one disobeying is high ranking and is deliberately trying to undermine the authority of his superior officer. Janos Slynt got exactly what he deserved for his attempted mutiny.

On 6/12/2022 at 3:43 AM, Darth Sidious said:

He chose not to punish a deserter who came back to attack the Wall because he needed him for an unlawful and morally reprehensible mission. 

How is it morally reprehensible to save a young girl from a monster like Ramsay?

On 6/23/2022 at 7:45 AM, Darth Sidious said:

Nymeria is a problem in the river lands. Walder’s huntsmen will find her. 

No, Nymeria will find Walder's huntsmen and administer the punishment they deserve.