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Oana_Mika's Achievements

Hedge Knight

Hedge Knight (5/8)

  1. “On the ADWD cover for Brazil, I put Daenerys at the top of the stairs of the meereenese pyramid. I had undoubtedly been, unconsciously, influenced by the series. And George told me that Daenerys wants equality for everyone, she wants to be at the same level as her people, so I had her climb down to keep it consistent” - Marc Simonetti
  2. I think this more because she is compassionate, not because she values the lives of the masters more than the lives of the freedmen. After all, she demanded 163 meereense leaders for the 163 crucified children. If this does not say she views them equally, then IDK...
  3. I don't really agree with this. "There may be another choice. The Yunkai'i can be persuaded to allow all your freedmen to remain free, I believe, if Your Worship will agree that the Yellow City may trade and train slaves unmolested from this day forth. No more blood need flow." "Save for the blood of those slaves that the Yunkai'i will trade and train," Dany said, but she recognized the truth in his words even so. It may be that is the best end we can hope for. (ADWD, Daenerys IV) When Daenerys finally turned away, Ser Barristan stood near her, wrapped in his white cloak against the chill of evening. "Can we make a fight of this?" she asked him. "Men can always fight, Your Grace. Ask rather if we can win. Dying is easy, but victory comes hard. (ADWD, Daenerys V) I mean, she does not like it, but she neither has much of a choice.
  4. So are you blaming her for flying away with Drogon? What would you have done then, in her place? And again, the efforts Dany rejects are those she made to appease the masters, not her supporting her people (i.e. the freedmen and slaves) who don't want her to make peace with the masters. The very reason she hated the peace was because it came at the detriment of the slaves. Yes Peace is not necessarily good by just being named peace. You also have to wage if the price is worthing. If you think that turning a blind eye to slavery is a good price for peace, then I disagree with you. I also want to point out the actual reasons why this peace broke : because Yurkhaz and Yezzan died and because Barristan deposed Hizdahr on the suspicion of poisoning her. So all these reasons why peace broke were out of her control. Yes, she decided at the end of ADWD that peace was not worthing but it's curious that ultimately, George put the breaking of the peace in other hands than actually hers. So no matter what Dany had decided, war was inevitable and how could then Martin portray Daenerys as being in the wrong for breaking the peace with the masters if there would have been no way for her to maintain said peace after all that happened? Also, as I pointed out before, slaves also see making peace with the slavers as no good. Would Martin ultimately portay them as being wrong too for wanting to be free? So are you saying that Hizdahr was lying? Why would he lie if Dany already agreed marrying him if he gave her 90 days of peace, which he succeeds? It's basically the same thing. You still say that she won't care anymore by saying that "she has decided not to let those concerns decide her actions". Anyway, that's just speculation. But what those essays ignore are the reasons of this dissatisfaction because to Adam, she chose war because it felt better. The low pay is not part of the peace with Yunkai, but it's due to her not being ruthless enough with the meereense. And as I said, that's what Jorah says. I know it's her projection of him, but as I don't take seriously her projection of Viserys calling her a traitor and a whore, I also don't take this as what defines her because what she really wants is "to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow".
  5. I've read that essays and indeed, he explains far more better Daenerys' anti-slavery campaign. I also have to add that many fans of Daenerys are greatful for Adam's essays because he did help to evolve the discussion around her, but we can also view his flaws in those essays. Namely, not seeing the injustices Dany has to overlook (and she hates it) in order to make and keep the peace with the slavers.
  6. She does choose peace because her people were slaughtered and because she is in general conciliatory. That's why she did not kill every master in Yunkai and Meereen. And in Meereen she tried to build a bridge between former slavers and slaves (which ofc is impossible because the former slavers had decided that if they can't have slaves anymore, they'll have the next best thing) and she voes to herself to be "the calamity that will change the slavers back into people". So she does not simply want to kill all the masters. Yunkai also makes things very difficult and as Barristan tells her, they can fight but probably won't win. That's why she agrees with their peace, which ultimately feels bitter because of the injustices she must allow to continue : slavery, the fighting pits (on which most probably will be her freedmen that will fight because they starve), etc. IDK how anyone can say this is a peace that is worth sustaining. Worth for whom? Not for the slaves. And this idea that Daenerys has completely tossed all her humanity in her last chapter because of a few lines is bogus. In those same lines she tells she wants "to laugh, to rest, to plant trees and see them grow" and she is sad that she can't remember Hazzea's name. This is not a person who has no concern for innocents. This just only shows that she ultimately chose war and saw the peace with the slavers not worthing. Also, Martin consistently through all 4 books in which she appears, has showed Dany concerned with the loss in her wars. Why would he toss all that? And as I said, this idea that she won't care anymore is just that, an idea because we don't have TWOW. Also, I want to say that if an author through 4 books shows a character caring for the loss in war and then in the 4th book throws a couple of lines and just shows the character not caring for that anymore, it's simply bad writing because in order to show a character making 180 degrees change, you have to show it gradually, not instantly and until now, I see Daenerys caring for how many people she loses in war.
  7. "Stop it," Dany said angrily. "She is mine. I will not have her harmed." Khal Drogo grunted. "The arrow must come out, Qotho." "Yes, Great Rider," Mirri Maz Duur answered, touching her bruised face. "And your breast must be washed and sewn, lest the wound fester." (AGOT, Daenerys VII) So is Drogo who decides to let Mirri help him, not Dany.
  8. You can scroll back and look. But it shows Yunkai attacking Meereen. So there is no agreement anymore I would not call it a "waste of time" because at least she bought time to strenghten her defenses, to make allies and to train her people. He ignored that "dragons plant no trees" comes right after she says she wanted "to laugh,to rest,to plant trees and see them grow" so he is wrong in painting her like an war addict, like the comparison you made in your replies. Also, this is tied with her wishing to go home. So her rejecting SLAVER'S PEACE does not mean she does not value innocent life anymore. We see her wanting to cry because she can't remember Hazzea's name so she does care. Hazzea is also linked with her chaining her dragons so all this is just her chosing war over PEACE WITH SLAVERS (which is not a parangon of what one should follow) and going home. And she does not abandon her people because her people are the slaves, who want her not to make peace with the slavers. You are really being disingenuous. She clearly hates everything unjust regarding this peace, not just them being paied very low. And no, her flying away on Drogon does not cause everyone's wages to go up. She just saves many other people from getting killed. That post had a link in which you can see why that statement and I did not quote that person, I quoted the person below because I liked the observation regarding how Adam wrote about Jon and Dany essays. That's why I actually posted just that part and it DID had what Adam wrote and it showed the double standards. So you not agreeing that Adam views Jon as a soft, pure, one-sidedly sweet boy before meeting Melisandre does not matter. And that person whom you seem to be upset with because she does not quote him, tells why Adam views Jon this way: because he puts much of the blame on Mel. And it also has a link to Adam's Jon essays and that person actually quotes him on what he wrote and explains her views on the essays. Wether you agree or not is another matter but the fact is that he admitted both Jon and Dany not liking the "peace" because they let injustices happen and framed Jon as good in braking said peace, while Dany is apparently becoming uncaring of human life as she does the same thing. So both chose war. That is the difference? And that she is not going to do any more good things it's just your projection. Nothing that can be proved with quotes, because we actually don't have the books. And Dany does not simply leaves the city. She tamed a dragon FFS and saved many lives by getting him out of there. She also isn't going on vacations. And btw, "dragons plant no trees" is Jorah's answer. Yes, it's her projection of Jorah, but as I don't take seriously Viserys calling her a traitor and a whore, I also don't take this quote as being definitve for Dany and it certainly does not mean not caring for innocents anymore. Quotes are not put only to quote someone. I put crazy genes in quotes not because I was quoting him or anybody, but because it seems ridiculous to me to reduce Daenerys decision at violent impulses. The deal was also with Yunkai "Ah, there is the thorn in the bower, my queen," said Hizdahr zo Loraq. "Sad to say, Yunkai has no faith in your promises. They keep plucking the same string on the harp, about some envoy that your dragons set on fire." "Only his tokar was burned," said Dany scornfully. "Be that as it may, they do not trust you. The men of New Ghis feel the same. Words are wind, as you yourself have so oft said. No words of yours will secure this peace for Meereen. Your foes require deeds. They would see us wed, and they would see me crowned as king, to rule beside you." Hizdahr is treated as one of their own. That's why they wanted to see Dany wed with him as part of the peace deal and released his family, but none of Dany's people. Adam Feldman thought that letting injustice happen for the sake o peace is good (and I wonder why then he thinks that the peace with Boltons was bad), which I disagree and ignored that Volantis wants war with Dany, that's why Qavo tells Tyrion that the Old Blood can not suffer their slaves looking up to Daenerys, to have hope for a revolution. And he was also very sick so that only tells that once he dies things will probably change, as it happened. Fine then. The peace was at best fragile and not worth of sustaining because it allowed injustices happen and prioritized the lives of slavers over the slaves.
  9. Btw, this is what he says about wages : Experience demonstrates that there may be a wages of slavery only a little less galling and crushing in its effects than chattle slavery, and that this slavery of wages must go down with the other. So yeah, I think he would agree with me that the situation in which the freed men in Meereen were hired sucks.
  10. “The Yunkishmen. The envoy they sent to woo Volantis…wishes us to be the fourth and offers twice what Myr was paying us, plus a slave for every man in the company, ten for every officer, and a hundred choice maidens all for me.” “That would require thousands of slaves. Where the do the Yunkishmen expect to find so many?” “In Meereen.” - A Dance with Dragons - The Lost Lord If Yunkai was so genuine with their peace offer how would they pay their sell swords then, since they promised them slaves from Meereen (i.e. to enslave Dany's people) ?
  11. Yezzan was just one of many other yunkish nobles. Yes, he persuaded the others but still, Yunkai sent envois to Volantis, which prepares an attack against Dany and her people. This is why I think they were just biding time because Yezzan being so sick it was just a matter of time until he died.
  12. IDK why this person keeps insisting on the peace being real if they are aware that the majority wanted war, Yezzan died so he can't hold them back anymore (so the peace was not genuine if it only depended on one obese old man whom is very sick and very likely to die soon) and we already see them attacking Meereen in TWOW. To me, the peace was clearly unsjut and fragile. This person sees that everything outside Meereen goes back as it was before (i.e. slavery), sees freed men in Meereen being hired back at so low wages that most of them can barely eat and they think it's fine. No problem. They just go and discuss Frederick Douglass. Quavo easily puts it to Tyrion why Volantis wants Dany dead : because she messed with the slavers and they think that had only those two obese old men had lived (or one of them), they would just have wanted to chat.
  13. But the majority wanted war. And the peace depending on him, whom was very sick, it's clear that is not going to last. You made a comparison between the slaves wanting Danenerys to fight against the yunkish with the yunkish wanting to go to war against Dany but Yezzan stopping them. Ergo, you implied that the slaves who want Dany to fight against their opressors instead of making peace with them are just bad as the slavers who want to crush Dany and the freedmen (ex-slaves) But if you read that quote, you'll see that they do more than "not giving assistance". Because it shows how the character is and what she wants vs what she needs to do. Whereas, Adam Feldman was simply saying that she did the right thing in compromising with the slavers (which I completely disagree with because it comes at the detriment of the freedmen and slaves) but at the end she chose war because it felt better, ignoring that what the character really wanted was peace (as I showed you in my previous replies) so war could not possibly feel better to her when all she was trying to do is to avoid it. She did not like the peace because she hated to see her freed men being exploited (being hired at such low wages that most of them could scarcely afford to eat so most probably they will be the ones who will die for the meereense's entertainment in the pits too) and because she hated that the yunkish will simply continue to enslave. I want to show you this observation (which is not mine) regarding how Adam Feldman views Dany and Jon's arc : I also want to add that Feldman’s essays have some really blatant double standards when it comes to Jon and Dany’s arc of rejecting the peace they build. When analyzing why Dany and Jon dislike the peace that they built, for both Jon and Dany, he admits that they dislike it because they hate seeing the injustice that still happens, even when there’s “peace”: And she finds that she loathes allowing injustice to continue, when peace necessarily involves letting injustices continue. (x) ~ Prior to the Pink Letter, Jon had to try to stomach a North ruled by “the Boltons,” with Roose in charge. Now, Ramsay has announced his own centrality and decided to rub his moral repulsiveness in Jon’s face, by bragging about flaying women. […] Ramsay is a monster — and heroes kill monsters. They don’t stand by and let monsters run rampant. They set the world to rights. Ramsay also demands that Jon himself commit a morally repulsive action. He demands Jon turn over a bunch of people under his protection to the Boltons, in hopes of avoiding Bolton retaliation against the Watch. Of course Jon doesn’t even have “Reek” or “Arya” to turn over, though they could well be headed to the Wall. But this hardly matters. Based on all of Jon’s previous actions in this book, the answer here is quite obviously “no” — just as he refused to kill the old man, Jon simply will not morally debase himself to please a monster, no matter the risk to the Watch, his peace, or the larger struggle. Though Jon says it’s not for the Watch to “defend [Stannis’] widow and his daughter,” Jon will — he won’t “let them die.” (x) So after ADMITTING that both Dany and Jon have the same motivations, they both hate the “peace” they built because they both hate to let injustices happen for the sake of “peace”, the natural conclusion would be that Dany and Jon break the peace for similar motivations, right? But Feldman, even after admitting that Dany and Jon have similar reasons to hate the peace, frames Dany and Jon’s decisions to break the peace in completely different ways: In a very literal sense, Jon is abandoning the defense against the Others, to go fight his “other wars” — one to save thousands of innocent people, one to depose a monster. The hero’s instinct. (x) ~ Since the first book, Dany has been tormented by the innocent lives lost when she unleashes violence and war. Now, she has apparently resolved to stop letting all this bother her. Her new “fire and blood” approach just seems likely to lead to many more Astapors and thousands more Hazzeas. But in this chapter Dany seems prepared to write them off, as sad but necessary collateral damage of her embracing her true “dragon” self and who she was “made to be.” The dragons, and Dany’s own violent impulses, will no longer be chained. She has given into her greatest fear — herself. (x) ~ Ending Jon’s arc with this Wun Wun incident further hammers home the importance of Jon’s hero instinct to his arc so far. I argued that Dany’s final chapter shows a major turning point in her values, where she rejects the idea that she should keep bending over backward to protect innocent life, rather than taking what she wants through force. For Jon, there is no similar rejection of the value of helping innocents, or of his hero’s instinct. As shown above, with Wun Wun, he keeps trying to help people and be a hero right up to the end. (x) Like… WTF? So he says that Jon keeps “trying to help people and be a hero right up to the end”, but completely ignores that Dany also does this: right at the very end of ADWD, in her last chapters, she is shown to clearly hate the fighting pits because innocent blood will be spilled (and she later ends up rejecting Meereen’s “peace” exactly after and because she watched the events in the fighting pits), she saves Tyrion and Penny from lions and stands her ground against forcing people to fight in the pits against their will, she saves several people by taming Drogon and flying away, she wants to cry about the one little girl Drogon killed, she still hates the Meereenese nobles because of their love of butchery (so because she hates injustice and what the slavers do)… so how exactly can he draw the conclusion that Jon “keeps trying to be a hero” while Dany “rejects her values”? Also, ever since I first read the essays, it always stood out to me how absurd it was that he literally admitted that both Dany and Jon disliked the peace they built because they hated to watch injustice happen and do nothing, and then concluded that Jon breaking the peace because he hated injustice is because of his “hero’s instinct”, while Dany breaking the peace because she hated injustice is because of her “violent impulses”. It always baffled me how no one in the fandom seemed to realize the blatant double standard. I put that in quotes not as in quoting him. If you noticed, I specified when he used a phrase (as "war felt better") If they are unreasonable to take a life from one of their hostages, who is one of Dany's men and they know that Yurkhaz did not died killed by Dany or Drogon, then they just wanted an excuse. Ergo, their peace was not sincere. It shows that they only care for their kind : the slavers. That's why Dany marrying him was part of the deal. And Dany being presumed dead, does not mean her people vanished or that they don't deserve to get the same kind of reassurement that the yunkish don't mean to butcher them all for whatever presumable offense Dany made against them. If we can't even agree on that I think it's just pointless to continue a discussion.
  14. I edited my comment because I wanted to post the quotes and I did no think I expressed my thoughts clear with that questions. Also, notice how they only release Hizdahr's family.
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