Oana_Mika

I might remember things wrong then. Agreed

Oh, I'm not gonna even open that site.

Everywhere : facebook, tumblr. I'm not on quora but I also heard that you should avoid it like pest, as well as twitter. The most bitter part is the "If you like Dany/Targaryens you would probably support Hitler" and stuff like that. GOT did not help at all, since they also wanted Daenerys fans personally ashamed for liking her character, not just the character being seen as the worst thing ever to happen in Planetos. Oh, and the "If you did not see it coming you are dumb" jabs.

I was talking about my experience in the fandom in general, not only on this site and yes, I know about what kind of posts you reffer to.

I think that too though in my experience in the fandom I saw more Targaryen (specially Daenerys) hate than Stark.

I agree but well, I mostly see Starks = good Targaryens = evil comments (and that without not knowing much about the Starks but pretty much of the dirty laudry of the Targaryens) so I just want to point out that thiese are just biases people have. As Martin said : "The Targaryens have not all been heroic, after all… some of them have been monsters, madmen, so…" (Source) So just some of them have been "madmen,monsters" .

@King Maegor the Cool so I genuinely wanted to make a list with the evil ones. Tell me if I miss someone and what he/she did because I read F&B a while ago and I don't remember exactly what everyone did. Maegor I 'the Cruel’ Targaryen Prince Rhaegel Targaryen Aerion 'the Monstrous’ 'Brightflame’ Targaryen Aerys II 'the Mad King’ Targaryen Viserys 'the Beggar King’ Targaryen Aenar Targaryen (I guess you will consider him evil because he had slaves although House Targaryen did not enslave after they fleed to Westeros and likely they slaves become servants) Visenya Targaryen Aegon I Targaryen Viserys I Targaryen (since you said he raped a 13 y/o) Aemond 'One-Eye’ Targaryen Daeron I 'the Young Dragon’ Targaryen (since he fought to conquer Dorne) Daemon 'the Rogue Prince’ Targaryen (since you also put it on the list) Aegon III 'the Younger’ Targaryen* (Had a temper, I guess?) Aegon II 'the Elder’ Targaryen (Was cruel?) Aegon IV 'the Unworthy’ Targaryen (Was a shitty person, I guess?) Brynden 'Lord Bloodraven’ Rivers (Was kind of a shitty person, I guess?) Aegor 'Bittersteel’ Rivers (Had a temper, I guess?) Rhaenyra Targaryen (for how she became at the end of her reign I guess) So so far, there are 18 out of more than 100 Targaryens that you could label them as evil (though I would only consider evil the ones like Aerys II or Viserys III)

Is this about Mushroom saying he teached how to give b**wjobs? I'm not sure if this is what you are reffering to.

And what about using your men as decoy? Send them to get killed so you can win a battle? And as I said, you can cualify Aegon as evil (although he gave many years of prosperity) for burning Dorne villages , again, in retaliation (not because he enjoyed being cruel) and there are still far more good Targaryens than bad ones.

My problem is not with your cualification of that act being bad, because it is. It's with the fandom ignoring similar tihngs that other did. I would love to see you discuss that. Including how the northeners hanged innocent for "sleeping with lions" in TWO5K and how they also destroyed villages in retaliation.

Also,IDK why he put Aegon I there. Guess because he burned Dorne villages in response to Rhaenys' death. I guess the Targaryen were the only ones who burned places in retaliation. Still, there are far more "good" Targaryens than "bad" ones.

I know that there were Targaryens that used their dragons cruely towards the common folk, not only just in battle and I agree that this is awaful. But again, we also see northeners and Stark men burning places in TWO5K and small folk spitting their name.

So it all comes down to bitterness that they have dragons?

But the Children were almost all whiped out and I showed you they did not helped them when the Andals invaded until their asses were at risk too. And even if they were not "nobility" as you say, they still took part in that.

Unlike the Starks who used their swords and took hostages to enforce their will? Which isn’t evil in of itself.

Ok, I understand your stance but my view on them is based on what we actually know, which is from Aegon the Conqueror onwards. If you can hate them for living in Valyria (and I agree that they were awaful), so I can hate the Starks that were before Kings of Winter that took part in the killing of the Children of the Forest. Because the Stark line did not simply appear right when they declared themselves Kings of Winter so their generation does go back to those who invaded Westeros and killed the Children of the Forest.

If you payed attention, I put mad in quotes because many asociated evil Targaryen with mad Targaryens. I see the list is only based on those who were considered mad, not dividing those who were just cruel. That's my slip. I'll make a reply with only those who were cruel then thought it will be tough given the extention of what you may consider evil.

How were they "bullying" Westeros with their dragons if most of their rule was peaceful? And lucky for you, I can actually show you how many Targaryens were eVuL/ "mad" (Source) : List of 'Mad’ Targaryens (6): Maegor I 'the Cruel’ Targaryen Baelor I 'the Blessed’ Targaryen (this one is debatable) Prince Rhaegel Targaryen Aerion 'the Monstrous’ 'Brightflame’ Targaryen Aerys II 'the Mad King’ Targaryen Viserys 'the Beggar King’ Targaryen (this one is debatable) (To better understand why these Targaryens are classified as mad, visit the Villains Wiki for a nice description for each character) Possible ’Mad’ Targaryens (3): Helaena Targaryen (became depressed and descended into madness, committed suicide) Aelora Targaryen (driven mad with grief after losing her husband, committed suicide) Maelys I 'the Monstrous’ Blackfyre (not actually a Targaryen. Ruthless and cruel, not necessarily mad, did possess a physical deformity) List of non-Mad Targaryens (81): Aenar Targaryen Gaemon 'the Glorious’ Targaryen Daenys 'the Dreamer’ Targaryen Aegon Targaryen Elaena Targaryen Maegon Targaryen Aerys Targaryen Aelyx Targaryen Baelon Targaryen Daemion Targaryen Aerion Targaryen Visenya Targaryen Aegon I Targaryen Rhaenys Targaryen Aenys I Targaryen Rhaena Targaryen Aegon 'the Uncrowned’ Targaryen Viserys Targaryen Jaehaerys I 'the Wise’ Targaryen 'Good Queen’ Alysanne Targaryen Rhaella Targaryen Aerea Targaryen Daenerys Targaryen Vaegon 'the Dragonless’ Targaryen Maegelle Targaryen Viserra Targaryen Saera Targaryen Gael Targaryen Aemon Targaryen Daella Targaryen* (maybe had anxiety?) Baelon 'the Brave’ Targaryen Alyssa Targaryen Rhaenys 'the Queen Who Never Was’ Targaryen Viserys I Targaryen Daemon 'the Rogue Prince’ Targaryen* (maybe suffered narcissism?) Baela Targaryen Rhaena Targaryen 'of Pentos’ Viserys II Targaryen Aegon III 'the Younger’ Targaryen* (Had a temper, I guess?) Jaehaera Targaryen (committed suicide, maybe? probably murdered) Jaehaerys Targaryen (born with six fingers and toes?) Aegon II 'the Elder’ Targaryen (Was cruel?) Aemond 'One-Eye’ Targaryen (Was a shitty person, I guess?) Daeron 'the Daring’ Targaryen Elaena Targaryen Septa Rhaena Targaryen Daeron I 'the Young Dragon’ Targaryen Daena 'the Defiant’ Targaryen Aegon IV 'the Unworthy’ Targaryen (Was a shitty person, I guess?) Naerys Targaryen Aemon 'the Dragonknight’ Targaryen Daemon I Blackfyre Daeron II ’ the Good’ Targaryen Daenerys Targaryen of Dorne Maekar I Targaryen (Had a temper I guess?) Aerys I Targaryen Baelor 'Breakspear’ Targaryen Matarys Targaryen Valarr 'the Young Prince’ Targaryen Brynden 'Lord Bloodraven’ Rivers (Was kind of a shitty person, I guess?) Shiera Seastar (Was rumored to be a murdery sorceress?) Aegor 'Bittersteel’ Rivers (Had a temper, I guess?) Rhae Targaryen Aegon V 'the Unlikely’ Targaryen Daella Targaryen Maester Aemon Targaryen Daenora Targaryen Aelor Targaryen Maegor Targaryen (fears that he would inherit his father’s madness, I guess?) Daeron 'the Drunken’ Targaryen Vaella Targaryen (simple-minded or low IQ, I guess?) Prince Duncan 'the Small’ Targaryen Jaehaerys II Targaryen Shaera Targaryen Rhaelle Targaryen Daeron Targaryen Queen Rhaella Targaryen Rhaegar 'the Silver Prince’ Targaryen Daenerys 'Stormborn’ Targaryen Rhaenys Targaryen Aegon Targaryen (or… may be Young Griff?) Non-'Mad’ Offspring from Targaryen Mothers (11): Laena Velaryon (gave birth to a deformed son, I guess?) Jacaerys Velaryon Lucerys Velaryon Joffrey Velaryon Joy Penrose Jon Waters Jeyne Waters Viserys Plumm Robin Penrose Laena Penrose Jocelyn Penrose Targaryens who died as babies (11): Vaella Targaryen Aegon Targaryen Gaemon Targaryen Valerion Targaryen Aegon Targaryen Maelor Targaryen Baelon Targaryen Jaehaerys Targaryen Aegon Targaryen Daeron Targaryen Shaena Targaryen Targaryen babies born with physical deformities (2): Visenya Targaryen (twisted and malformed) Rhaego (born deformed… likely the result of magic)

As the Starks benefited from other atrocities and I previously showed you how the majority of their time in Westeros was peaceful.

The Starks are of blood of the First Men, who genocided the Children of the Forest : “They were people of the Dawn Age, the very first, before kings and kingdoms,” he said. “In those days, there were no castles or holdfasts, no cities, not so much as a market town to be found between here and the sea of Dorne. There were no men at all. Only the children of the forest dwelt in the lands we now call the Seven Kingdoms. “They were a people dark and beautiful, small of stature, no taller than children even when grown to manhood. They lived in the depths of the wood, in caves and crannogs and secret tree towns. Slight as they were, the children were quick and graceful. Male and female hunted together, with weirwood bows and flying snares. Their gods were the gods of the forest, stream, and stone, the old gods whose names are secret. Their wise men were called greenseers, and carved strange faces in the weirwoods to keep watch on the woods. How long the children reigned here or where they came from, no man can know. “But some twelve thousand years ago, the First Men appeared from the east, crossing the Broken Arm of Dorne before it was broken. They came with bronze swords and great leathern shields, riding horses. No horse had ever been seen on this side of the narrow sea. No doubt the children were as frightened by the horses as the First Men were by the faces in the trees. As the First Men carved out holdfasts and farms, they cut down the faces and gave them to the fire. Horror-struck, the children went to war. The old songs say that the greenseers used dark magics to make the seas rise and sweep away the land, shattering the Arm, but it was too late to close the door. The wars went on until the earth ran red with blood of men and children both, but more children than men, for men were bigger and stronger, and wood and stone and obsidian make a poor match for bronze. Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye.” (Bran VII, AGoT) See how they only aided the Children of the Forest when they were threatened too : “The Andals were the first, a race of tall, fair-haired warriors who came with steel and fire and the seven-pointed star of the new gods painted on their chests. The wars lasted hundreds of years, but in the end the six southron kingdoms all fell before them. Only here, where the King in the North threw back every army that tried to cross the Neck, did the rule of the First Men endure. The Andals burnt out the weirwood groves, hacked down the faces, slaughtered the children where they found them, and everywhere proclaimed the triumph of the Seven over the old gods. So the children fled north—” (Bran VII, AGoT) And The Kings of Winter extinguished many lines to cement their rule and conquer the North : Song and story tell us that the Starks of Winterfell have ruled large portions of the lands beyond the Neck for eight thousand years, styling themselves the Kings of Winter (the more ancient usage) and (in more recent centuries) the Kings in the North. Their rule was not an uncontested one. Many were the wars in which the Starks expanded their rule or were forced to win back lands that rebels had carved away. The Kings of Winter were hard men in hard times. Ancient ballads, amongst the oldest to be found in the archives of the Citadel of Oldtown, tell of how one King of Winter drove the giants from the North, whilst another felled the skinchanger Gaven Greywolf and his kin in “the savage War of the Wolves,” but we have only the word of singers that such kings and such battles ever existed. More historical proof exists for the war between the Kings of Winter and the Barrow Kings to their south, who styled themselves the Kings of the First Men and claimed supremacy over all First Men everywhere, even the Starks themselves. Runic records suggest that their struggle, dubbed the Thousand Years War by the singers, was actually a series of wars that lasted closer to two hundred years than a thousand, ending when the last Barrow King bent his knee to the King of Winter, and gave him the hand of his daughter in marriage. Even this did not give Winterfell dominion over all the North. Many other petty kings remained, ruling over realms great and small, and it would require thousands of years and many more wars before the last of them was conquered. Yet one by one, the Starks subdued them all, and during these struggles, many proud houses and ancient lines were extinguished forever. (The North: The Kings of Winter, TWoIaF)

While House Stark was part of the First Men who genocided the Cildren of the Forest, extinguished many Houses to gain their Kingdom in the North and isolated the wildlings beyond the Wall. As for being eugenistic, the Starks also believe they are better than others because of their First Men blood. And while House Targaryen married many times outside their house and blood, House stark only married a couple of times with someone who did not have the blood of the First Men. Oh, and House Targaryen, although they were among the dragon riding families, were not very influential in Old Valyria. BTW, here I have how many years of peace they offered in Westeros, since you said it's debateble : Targaryens ruled for 283 years, from 1 AC to 283 AC, when Aerys is slain. Aegon I: The conquest ended after the first Dornish War ended with a peace treaty in 13 AC. The rest of Aegon’s reign was peaceful and lasted 37 years. 37-13 = 24 years of complete peace. Aenys: ruled from 37 AC to 42 AC, 5 years. His reign was plagued by rebellions, so none of the years in his reign could reasonably be considered peaceful. 0 years of complete peace. Maegor: ruled from 42 AC to 48 AC, 6 years. Obviously none of his reign can be considered peaceful. 0 years of complete peace. Jaehaerys I: ruled from 48 AC to 103 AC, 55 years, all of which were peaceful and prosperous. 55 of complete peace AND prosperity. Viserys I: ruled from 103 AC to 129 AC, 26 years. While it was during his reign that the seeds of the Dance were planted, Viserys’ reign itself was completely peaceful (save for the Stepstones but that did not affect Westeros). 26 years of complete peace. Aegon II: ruled from 129 AC to 131 AC, 2 years. Obviously there was a civil war happening, so 0 years of complete peace. Aegon III: ruled from 131 to 157 AC, 26 years. While his reign was immediately after the civil war and there was some instability during the regency, Aegon kept the peace for its entirety. 26 years of complete peace. Daeron I: ruled from 157 AC - 161 AC, 4 years. His reign was marked by the conquest of Dorne, so I will count its entirety as 0 years of complete peace. Baelor: ruled from 161 AC to 171 AC, 10 years. He actually tried to atone for Daeron’s wars, and while he was often in a silly goofy mood, I would count all 10 years of his reign as relatively peaceful, 0 if you think that his craziness impacted the realm in some way. Viserys II: ruled from 171 AC to 172 AC, 1 year. No war during his reigns, it was actually said that he had what it takes to be another Jaehaerys, but his reign was cut short. 1 year of peace AND prosperity. Aegon IV: ruled from 172 to 184 AC, 12 years. While he was a terrible king, there were no wars during his reign. I will be generous though and say that on the account of his terrible kingship, 0 years of peace for him. Daeron II: ruled from 184 AC - 209 AC, 25 years. He brough Dorne into the kingdom peacefully, but some of his reign was plagued by the First Blackfyre Rebellion, lasting one year in 196. The rest of his reign was peaceful. 24 years of complete peace. Aerys I: ruled from 209 AC to 221 AC, 12 years. In 212 there was a Greyjoy rebellion and Second Blackfyre Rebellion, lasting 1 year. The Third Blackfyre Rebellions lasted in 219, also one year. Other than that, there were 10 years of peace. Maekar: ruled from 221–233 AC, 11 years. No wars during his reign. 11 years of peace. Aegon V: ruled from 233 AC to 259 AC, 26 years. Brief Blackfyre rebellion broke out in 236. He also had to deal with uprisings, but it’s hard to estimate how much of his reign was dedicated to that. Lyonel’s Strong rebellion was “short”, so let’s say it lasted one year. Jaehaerys’ marriage to Shaera also caused troubles with the Tullys and Tyrells, TWOIAF does not mention anything about a full fledged rebellion, though. There was a rebellion in 251, where Daeron was slain, let’s say it lasted another year. 2 years were spent at war. In order to make it “much”, I will generously add some years, let’s say 8 years of some other conflicts. Still, that’s 16 years of relative peace. Jaehaerys II: ruled from 259 AC to 262 AC, lasting 3 years. In 260, the last Blackfyre pretender appeared and killed during the War of the Ninepenny Kings, lasting a year. Other than that, his reign was pretty unremarkable. 2 years of peace. Aerys II: ruled from 262 to 283 AC, 21 years. Initially, his reign was promising. When do we start counting it as chaotic? Aerys’ madness only truly started during Defiance at Duskendale, started in 277. Robert’s rebellion lasted from 282–283 AC, a year. Let’s be generous and count the Defiance as the beginning of chaos. 21-6=15. 15 years of peace. That is, in total, 210 years of peace. 222 if we count Aegon IV as peaceful because there were no wars, 200 if we exclude Baelor because he was crazy. Percentage-wise, it’s respectively 75%, 78% and 70%, a clear majority of time. Mind you, before the conquest, the Seven Kingdoms were at constant war with one another, so this is an extremely drastic reduction. (Source)

Martin showed Daenerys as refusing to kill children so sorry if those instances do not align with your argument here. The fact that the statement "under twelve" is made is not to show her as a child murderer but to showcast how young the protagonists are (Dany herself was around 15 at that point) and how brutal his world is, given the fact that boys younger that 16 can fight and go to wars.

You are the one twisting things into pretzels (somehow the Unsullied being able to kill everyone over 11 because they somehow knew everyone's age) than to recognize that the order simply ment to spare children, thus if any unsullied saw a child, they simply spared him.

If they don't insult my intelligence and pretend to not know the difference between revolution and invasion, it's all great

The order was to spare the children. Given the fact that the usullied had no way to determine everyone's age, is safe to assume they just spare children.