Oana_Mika
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BTW @Corvo the Crow, while you are crying about Dany allegedly killing children, this is how Jon responds : "None but them whose sires displeased the Kings o' Winter," said The Norrey. "Those came home shorter by a head. So you tell me, boy … if these wildling friends o' yours prove false, do you have the belly to do what needs be done?" Ask Janos Slynt. "Tormund Giantsbane knows better than to try me. I may seem a green boy in your eyes, Lord Norrey, but I am still a son of Eddard Stark." - A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI
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In Westeros, one can't rule in their own right until they are 16, but they can go to war so it's not what you are saying. Children under 16 are definitely treated as adults/start to be one, as you can see when Sansa flourishes . And please, don't cry that much about "one dimentional evil slavers" when you are defending them. Plus, you would search long to find any depth in Jeoffrey, Boltons and co.
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Other slaves insisted that the guards were lying, that Daenerys Targaryen would never make peace with slavers. Mhysa , they called her. Someone told him that meant Mother. Soon the silver queen would come forth from her city, smash the Yunkai'i, and break their chains, they whispered to one another. - A Dance with Dragons -Tyrion X "Is it true?" a freedwoman shouted. "Is our mother dead?" "No, no, no," Reznak screeched. "Queen Daenerys will return to Meereen in her own time in all her might and majesty. Until such time, His Worship King Hizdahr shall—" "He is no king of mine," a freedman yelled.- A Dance with Dragons - The Discarted Knight Behind the Black Wall, lords of ancient blood sleep poorly, listening as their kitchen slaves sharpen their long knives. Slaves grow our food, clean our streets, teach our young. They guard our walls, row our galleys, fight our battles. And now when they look east, they see this young queen shining from afar, this breaker of chains. The Old Blood cannot suffer that. A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VI "I am no lady," the widow replied, "just Vogarro's whore. You want to be gone from here before the tigers come. Should you reach your queen, give her a message from the slaves of Old Volantis." She touched the faded scar upon her wrinkled cheek, where her tears had been cut away. "Tell her we are waiting. Tell her to come soon." - A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VII Ser Barristan Selmy rode past them slowly. The old knight wore the armor his queen had given him—a suit of white enameled steel, inlaid and chased with gold. The cloak that streamed from his shoulders was as white as winter snow, as was the shield slung from his saddle. Beneath him was the queen's own mount, the silver mare Khal Drogo had given her upon their wedding day. That was presumptuous, he knew, but if Daenerys herself could not be with them in their hour of peril, Ser Barristan hoped the sight of her silver in the fray might give heart to her warriors, reminding them of who and what they fought for. - The Winds of Winter - Barristan I "Mother to dragons." Dany shivered. "No. Mother to us all." Missandei hugged her tighter. - A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys II Indeed, is amazing how much the freedmen and slaves love her and I must say, implying that they are mindless zombies not only shows a disgusting view, one that aligns with the master's (that slaves can't think on their own) but also that you should (re)read the books.
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Above 12 does not mean EVERYONE over 11 as you suggested. The order was explicitly given to spare children and yes, adults happen to be older than 12. Why is Dany at fault for what Cleon does or does not? She tried to help them as much as she can : I have no more help to give, Dany thought, despairing. The Astapori had no place to go. Thousands remained outside Meereen's thick walls—men and women and children, old men and little girls and newborn babes. Many were sick, most were starved, and all were doomed to die. Daenerys dare not open her gates to let them in. She had tried to do what she could for them. She had sent them healers, Blue Graces and spell-singers and barber-surgeons, but some of those had sickened as well, and none of their arts had slowed the galloping progression of the flux that had come on the pale mare. Separating the healthy from the sick had proved impractical as well. Her Stalwart Shields had tried, pulling husbands away from wives and children from their mothers, even as the Astapori wept and kicked and pelted them with stones. A few days later, the sick were dead and the healthy ones were sick. Dividing the one from the other had accomplished nothing. Even feeding them had grown difficult. Every day she sent them what she could, but every day there were more of them and less food to give them. It was growing harder to find drivers willing to deliver the food as well. Too many of the men they had sent into the camp had been stricken by the flux themselves. Others had been attacked on the way back to the city. Yesterday a wagon had been overturned and two of her soldiers killed, so today the queen had determined that she would bring the food herself. Every one of her advisors had argued fervently against it, from Reznak and the Shavepate to Ser Barristan, but Daenerys would not be moved. "I will not turn away from them," she said stubbornly. "A queen must know the sufferings of her people." - A Dance with Dragons - Dsenerys VI And she did not help Cleon because he is a slaver himself, because that was a condition of the peace and because if she had left Meereen, the people that remained there would have been slaughtered by the Sons of the Harpy : If he proposes again that I wed King Cleon, I'll throw a slipper at his head, Dany thought, but for once the Astapori envoy made no mention of a royal marriage. Instead he said, "The time has come for Astapor and Meereen to end the savage reign of the Wise Masters of Yunkai, who are sworn foes to all those who live in freedom. Great Cleon bids me tell you that he and his new Unsullied will soon march." His new Unsullied are an obscene jape. "King Cleon would be wise to tend his own gardens and let the Yunkai'i tend theirs." It was not that Dany harbored any love for Yunkai. She was coming to regret leaving the Yellow City untaken after defeating its army in the field. The Wise Masters had returned to slaving as soon as she moved on, and were busy raising levies, hiring sellswords, and making alliances against her. Cleon the self-styled Great was no better, however. The Butcher King had restored slavery to Astapor, the only change being that the former slaves were now the masters and the former masters were now the slaves. - A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys I ~ "I warned your king that this war of his was folly," Dany reminded him. "He would not listen." "Great Cleon sought only to strike down the vile slavers of Yunkai." "Great Cleon is a slaver himself." "I know that the Mother of Dragons will not abandon us in our hour of peril. Lend us your Unsullied to defend our walls." And if I do, who will defend my walls? "Many of my freedmen were slaves in Astapor. Perhaps some will wish to help defend your king. That is their choice, as free men. I gave Astapor its freedom. It is up to you to defend it."- A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys III ~ "Even then some said that you were coming," said the weaver. "They swore they had seen you mounted on a dragon, flying high above the camps of the Yunkai'i. Every day we looked for you." I could not come, the queen thought. I dare not.- A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys V ~ [...]Yunkai will give us peace, but for a price. The disruption of the slave trade has caused great injury throughout the civilized world. Yunkai and her allies will require an indemnity of us, to be paid in gold and gemstones." Gold and gems were easy. "What else?" "The Yunkai'i will resume slaving, as before. Astapor will be rebuilt, as a slave city. You will not interfere." "The Yunkai'i resumed their slaving before I was two leagues from their city. Did I turn back? King Cleon begged me to join with him against them, and I turned a deaf ear to his pleas. I want no war with Yunkai. How many times must I say it? What promises do they require?" - A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys VI ~ "They are permitting that, yes," she had replied, "but their warships remain. They can close their fingers around our throat again whenever they wish. They have opened a slave market within sight of my walls!" "Outside our walls, sweet queen. That was a condition of the peace, that Yunkai would be free to trade in slaves as before, unmolested" - A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys VIII And it's not like she does not regret it : "These are not apples, Ben," said Dany. "These are men and women, sick and hungry and afraid." My children. "I should have gone to Astapor." "Your Grace could not have saved them," said Ser Barristan. "You warned King Cleon against this war with Yunkai. The man was a fool, and his hands were red with blood." And are my hands any cleaner? She remembered what Daario had said—that all kings must be butchers, or meat. "Cleon was the enemy of our enemy. If I had joined him at the Horns of Hazzat, we might have crushed the Yunkai'i between us." The Shavepate disagreed. "If you had taken the Unsullied south to Hazzat, the Sons of the Harpy—" "I know. I know. It is Eroeh all over again." - A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys V But ultimately she was stuck between a rock and a hard place and as she said : Her host numbered more than eighty thousand after Yunkai, but fewer than a quarter of them were soldiers. - A Storm of Swords - Daenerys V She signed that YUNKAI can return as before unmolested because of the peace, that was one of their requirements. Can you guys stick with one narrative at least?? She is bad for wanting peace, thus she is forced to placate the masters, but she is also "genociding" them when she fights against them. Don't worry, she's done signing treats with them. She idirectly had a part in it because not leaving a garrison behind led to Cleon being King and leaving Yunkai untouched enabled them to fight Astapor but ultimately, the blame rests on Cleon and Yukai's masters, as they are resposible for their own acctions. And she precisely stays in Meereen to avoid that : "[...]I will not let this city go the way of Astapor. I will not let the harpy of Yunkai chain up those I've freed all over again." She turned back to look at their faces. "I will not march." - A Storm of Swords - Daenerys VI And how is her fault??? Her dragons are half wild, with no riders and there is no course on how to train them. And that's why she lock them. Rhaego indeed was innocent, as he did not even drew a breath and her desperation to have her son protected turned her towards Mirri's help. So you see, it's not simply a matter to answer "yes or no" because things are more nuanced than that. Guess you thought it was a "gotcha" but it only shows you trolling and poor reading comprehention.
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The Yunkai'i claimed that she fed her dragons on human flesh and bathed in the blood of virgins to keep her skin smooth and supple. [...] And Books, the clever Volantene swordsman who always seemed to have his nose poked in some crumbly scroll, thought the dragon queen both murderous and mad. "Her khal killed her brother to make her queen. Then she killed her khal to make herself khaleesi. She practices blood sacrifice, lies as easily as she breathes, turns against her own on a whim. She's broken truces, tortured envoys … her father was mad too. It runs in the blood."-A Dance with Dragons - The Windblown "Sweet?" Qavo laughed. "If even half the stories coming back from Slaver's Bay are true, this child is a monster. They say that she is bloodthirsty, that those who speak against her are impaled on spikes to die lingering deaths. They say she is a sorceress who feeds her dragons on the flesh of newborn babes, an oathbreaker who mocks the gods, breaks truces, threatens envoys, and turns on those who have served her loyally. They say her lust cannot be sated, that she mates with men, women, eunuchs, even dogs and children, and woe betide the lover who fails to satisfy her. She gives her body to men to take their souls in thrall." - A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VI The "Dany genocided Astapor and killed everyone over 11" is your addition, I'll give you that (though unoriginal). Please , ask a literature teacher if "harm no child under 12" means "Kill everyone over 11". Hope you note that not even the slavers spread this joke, given that they (the Masters of Yunkai more exactly) destroyed Astapor : It was the Tattered Prince himself who did the speaking. "Orders have come down from Yurkhaz," he said. "What Astapori still survive have come creeping from their hidey-holes, it seems. There's nothing left in Astapor but corpses, so they're pouring out into the countryside, hundreds of them, maybe thousands, all starved and sick. The Yunkai'i don't want them near their Yellow City. We've been commanded to hunt them down and turn them, drive them back to Astapor or north to Meereen. If the dragon queen wants to take them in, she's welcome to them. Half of them have the bloody flux, and even the healthy ones are mouths to feed." - A Dance with Dragons - The Windblown
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I know most part of them are trolls but it gets very frustrating hearing them being repeated over and over and over again. Guess is my bad for getting involved in a fandom. Specially one who can't even agree that the right thing to do is to fight the masters, that tearing down an economy based of slavery is not bad, that revolutions are not made with the hands clean but they are still worth it and that the most human thing is to help the slaves as soon as possible, not after years of planning or "ajusting" the masters to the new change because the slavers are not the priority, but the slaves. Funnily, Dany's detractors don't even realise (or have forgot or they don't care) that the slaves want her to fight the masters, not to accept their demands. Honestly, most times I feel like this fandom has become more a shit war (throwing puns towards characters to show how cool your fave is) than genuinely liking the books.
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The Shakespearean Tragedy of Daenerys Targaryen
Oana_Mika replied to The Bard of Banefort's topic in General (ASoIaF)
I know in the fandom people like to atribute Dany's victories to her dragons, eg : "Without them she would have been sent to Vaes Dothrak!!!!!" . Same I could say that without the direwolves, the Starks would have been dead, Rob won Jon Umber's loyalty and respect thx to Grey Wind and without Sam, Jon would have not got his LC position because he manipulated people into electing Jon (he was not the first choice for that position). Funny how they ignore the fact that Martin made Dany face more struggles with them, than the Starks with their direwolves. I mean, I don't see them beating themselves over for the power they have thx to their abilities and beasts. As for Martin, I doubt he is not aware that the way he treats his only two rulling queens (since F&B and TKOTSK are peppered with how women are overlooked in favour of men and he also stated that Cersei and Daenerys are ment to be contrasted X, X) determines what he has to say about women in power. And from my understanding, Isaac was told that it came from Martin. Plus, if Bran indeed ends up king, we don't know if he will be the king of Westeros. Honestly, I can't see king Bran working since he hammers so much about "Aragorn's tax policy" and how magic should never be the answer. Bran never actually ruled, he was mostly a head figure as Lord of Winterfell and following Maester Luwin and a magical king that can forsee everything is pretty much slapping magic to Westeros' problems. -
The Shakespearean Tragedy of Daenerys Targaryen
Oana_Mika replied to The Bard of Banefort's topic in General (ASoIaF)
@Craving Peaches we seem to keep dancing around since you keep saying that Daenerys got her position thanks to her dragons. I don't deny they helped in a few moments (just like the direwolves helped to survive the Starks; I mean, Ghost is used as a vessel for Jon's soul) but that does not take away her agency and her planning so we might just leave it here. -
The Shakespearean Tragedy of Daenerys Targaryen
Oana_Mika replied to The Bard of Banefort's topic in General (ASoIaF)
Mace Tyrell already says she is mad like her father, Quentyn is afraid to meet her because of what the slavers say about her and one of his companions equates her with her father because "it runs in the blood" "Her khal killed her brother to make her queen. Then she killed her khal to make herself khaleesi. She practices blood sacrifice, lies as easily as she breathes, turns against her own on a whim. She's broken truces, tortured envoys … her father was mad too. It runs in the blood." - A Dance with Dragons - The Windblown "We have these tales coming from the east as well. A second Targaryen, and one whose blood no man can question. Daenerys Stormborn." "As mad as her father," declared Lord Mace Tyrell. - A Dance with Dragons - Epilogue But you downplay her inteligence by saying things like this No, her wits are the reason she got there because it was her wits that kept the dragons alive in the first place. -
The Shakespearean Tragedy of Daenerys Targaryen
Oana_Mika replied to The Bard of Banefort's topic in General (ASoIaF)
Me too, but I also love dragons so eitherway I'm served -
The Shakespearean Tragedy of Daenerys Targaryen
Oana_Mika replied to The Bard of Banefort's topic in General (ASoIaF)
I don't think it would have been that different since the character goes more or less as he originally intended. Indeed, he lacks dragons and the royal title but he also got help from Sam to get in the position of being LC. In fact, his entire campaign was planned by Sam. Also, Daenerys' titles did not help her to conquer Astapor, Yunkai, Meereen and to rule. And as much as you pin her freeing the unsullied (and you tie to this her other victories that she got without using her dragons) on her dragons instead on her wits, they did not help her ruling either. Oh and Daenerys too has to deal with a stigma : being the Mad King's daughter -
The Shakespearean Tragedy of Daenerys Targaryen
Oana_Mika replied to The Bard of Banefort's topic in General (ASoIaF)
Dude, why do you think Martin did not think from the start to give her dragons? How would he develop her story without them then, if she can't get anything without them? Oh and I forgot to add that Ghost does not get Jon the king's treatment because he is not an extincted specie like the dragons and Jon is a bastard, not a prince/king. She has dragon dreams and the instinct that heat helps them hatch (she puts them on the brazer) and she also pieced Mirri's words to this -
The Shakespearean Tragedy of Daenerys Targaryen
Oana_Mika replied to The Bard of Banefort's topic in General (ASoIaF)
They start following her because she did a miracle, briging an extincted specie back to life. It was because of what she did, not the dragons per se. -
The Shakespearean Tragedy of Daenerys Targaryen
Oana_Mika replied to The Bard of Banefort's topic in General (ASoIaF)
But still, Martin would have had to get her go make that move one way or another, wouldn't he? Or do you think the dragons are the only important thing in this character? Could she have not achieved anything without them? I know they are more impressive than the direwolves and more powerful but again, she earned it. She was gifted with pretty stones and she had to piece out clues on how to wake them. -
The Shakespearean Tragedy of Daenerys Targaryen
Oana_Mika replied to The Bard of Banefort's topic in General (ASoIaF)
Like I said previously, Daenerys gets credit for doing the impossible. And she is prophesised as a saviour because the prophecy literally says that the saviour is the one who wakes dragons from stone, under the bleeding star, something she did so it's not like she is believed as such for no reason -
The Shakespearean Tragedy of Daenerys Targaryen
Oana_Mika replied to The Bard of Banefort's topic in General (ASoIaF)
She could have found anything else to trick the masters and free the Unsullied The Unsullied did the hard job, Drogon just burned Kraznis. They were not esential. Indeed, but she has credit for pulling out the impossible, so it's because she could do that that they follow her. The Starks just stumbled upon their direwolves and just got their super powers. She chose the Red Waste because it was the only way opened to her so you are right in this, the dragons did not force her to go there. "The way the comet points is the way we must go," Dany insisted . . . though in truth, it was the only way open to her.She dare not turn north onto the vast ocean of grass they called the Dothraki sea. The first khalasar they met would swallow up her ragged band, slaying the warriors and slaving the rest. The lands of the Lamb Men south of the river were likewise closed to them. They were too few to defend themselves even against that unwarlike folk, and the Lhazareen had small reason to love them. She might have struck downriver for the ports at Meereen and Yunkai and Astapor, but Rakharo warned her that Pono's khalasar had ridden that way, driving thousands of captives before them to sell in the flesh marts that festered like open sores on the shores of Slaver's Bay. - A Clas of Kings - Daenerys I