Oana_Mika

Ghost finds the dragon glass, Ghost saves Jon's ass and Ghost is also intimidating, boosting the people respect for Jon.

If the Starks would not have found the direwolves, they would most likely be dead She freed the slaves from Yunkai and Meereen without dragons and as I said, in Astapor they were just a bargaining chip. She could have found anything else instead of dragons to use as bait. I doubt Martin could not make her story work without her having dragons. She could have chose another rout. She went there because of her fear that people might take or kill the dragons, as they were very vulnerable. They follow her not because of her dragons. Where in the text is hinted that that is the reason they are with her? Because from what I remember they follow her because she proved herself to them.

Ghost also saved Jon and Summer too saved him so let's not pretend that the Stark have no advantage with their direwolves whatsoever.

The only time people followed her because of them was at the end of AGOT and it was because she made the impossible. Plus, saying she is only relying on her dragons, undermines what Martin does with his characters : Magic should never be the solution to the problem. My credo as a writer has always been Faulkner’s Nobel Prize acceptance speech where he said, “The only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself.” That transcends genre. That’s what good fiction, good drama is about: human beings in trouble. You have to make a decision, you have to do something, your life is in danger or your honor is in danger, or you’re facing some crisis of the heart. To make a satisfying story, the protagonist has to solve the problem, or fail to solve the problem – but has to grapple with the problem in some kind of rational way, and the reader has to see that. And if the hero does win in the end, he has to feel that that victory is earned. The danger with magic is that the victory could be unearned. Suddenly you’re in the last chapter and you wind up with a deus ex machina. The hero suddenly remembers that if he can just get some of this particular magical plant, then he can brew a potion and solve his problem. And that’s a cheat. That feels very unsatisfying. It cheapens the work. Well-done fantasy – something like Tolkien – he sets Lord of the Rings up perfectly, right at the beginning. The only way to get rid of the ring, the only way, is to take it to Mount Doom and throw it in the fires from which it comes. You know that right from the first. And if we’d gone through all that, and then at the end of the book suddenly Gandalf had said, wait a minute, I just remembered, here’s this other spell, oh, I can get rid of the ring easily! You would have hated that. That would have been all wrong. Magic can ruin things. Magic should never be the solution. Magic can be part of the problem. (source) GRRM doesn’t write characters who just get everything solved through magic. He criticizes just that, the use of magic to solve the problems of the characters, without the characters having to make choices, think on how they’ll solve their problems, etc. He would have been an hypocrite to say this if he had written Dany like that. But the fact is that he didn’t write Dany like that. GRRM gave Dany dragons, but he was very careful not to make dragons the solution to her problems, and sometimes, even make the dragons the source of her problems: First, because Dany wasn’t handed her dragons, she had to solve a magical puzzle (her dragon dreams and Mirri’s clues about only death paying for life), make sacrifices and step into a pyre to hatch these dragons from petrified eggs. Then, her dragons immediately cause problems: because she has them, Dany has to cross the Red Waste in order to avoid her dragons getting captured and her people slaughtered. The dragons didn’t help to survive the Red Waste and to find a way out of it. Dany had to be resilient and show strength to keep her khalasar united to survive, and she had to be smart to send her bloodriders in different directions to find a way out of the desert They were just a bargaining chip and given the fact that Martin considered at first to give Targrayens pyrokinesis instead of dragons I doubt she could not free them without having dragons. Things started to fall apart because the masters of Yunkai, the former Masters in Meereen and the rest (Old Volantis and their coalition) want retaliation and things to get back the way they used to be before she disrupted the slave trade. Ideed, her locking up the dragons and refusing to use them makes Ben Plum to see her defeated but the primal reason of things getting bad are the masters, not her being unable to hold them together without the dragons. As I showed you, she does plenty of things without them. She barely used them. How so?? Barristan observed her before he reveald himself to her and pledge himself to her. Missandei stayed with her because she believes in her, loves her and feels safe with her, the freedmen stay with her because they believe in her and love her and so on. Dragons have nothing to do with these people being in her council.

@Craving Peaches as for being Targaryen, I could also say Jon had preference in being LC Mormont's Steward (a position granted to him to learn from him how to lead) because he was Ned's bastard.

So, this is false. Daenerys leadership is also based on her merit, not because of her name or dragons. The slaves from Astapor follow her because she freed them, not because she is a Targaryen or because of her dragons. The slaves from Yunkai follow her and call her mother not because or her name or dragons. While she used her dragons as a decoy in Astapor and burned Kraznis, the rest of her millitary success comes from her planning and putting together the ideas her diverse council gives her. She ruled Meereen without dragons, making trades, alliances, passing laws and planting crops, finding ways to make a new economy, and as Barrristan says, she is the only one who holds them all together : The very men sitting at this table would soon be at dagger points with one another. A young girl she might be, but Daenerys Targaryen was the only thing that held them all together. - A Dance with Dragons - The Queen's Hand

Got it : any male before a woman *sighs

From the wiki searching "inheritance" : A man's eldest son is his heir, followed by his second son, then his third son, and so on. In theory, the youngest son is followed in the line of succession by the eldest daughter, after whom come her sisters in birth order. So by this logic, after Rhaegar died, before inheriting anything from Aerys II, because Aerys II was still alive, the nex in line is Viserys, Aerys' II second son, not Rhaegar's children and after Viserys, comes Daenerys. I know the line of succession is not clear cut but still, you can't just ignore that Rhaegar died before Aerys. Rhaegar's children would have come before anyone if their father would have followed Aerys, but since it was not the case, IDK how they come before the king's second son and his daughter.

Well, they first have to prove to be Targaryens and for Jon, with the addition that he is not a Targaryen bastard. Or male bastards come before women too?

From my understanding, the claim to the throne passes down the king's line, not upwards. Rhaegar's children would have a better claim than Daenerys if his line would not have been scrapped, which it happened when Aerys II named Viserys heir instead of Aegon. Plus, Young Griff still has to prove he is indeed the supossed dead Aegon, while Daenerys parentage is not up to question. Also, Rhaegar never became king, that's why the claim passed down to Viserys and from him to Daenerys. The line goes like this Aerys II king --> Rhaegar (the first born son and heir to the throne) who died so the inheritance passes to Aerys' second son, Viserys, not Rhaegar's son, since Aerys was still king and from Viserys to Aerys' daughter, Daenerys since neither Aerys had more sons, neither Viserys (the last heir) had children. If Viserys would have had children, they would have come before Daenerys and before Rhaegar's children.

@The Sleeper My point was that Young Griff still needs Daenerys, as yourself admitted, to not be viewed as an impostor because without him being validated as Rhaegar's son, he has no claim. I understand your thinking that Rhaegar's children have a claim over Daenerys and the cricumstances that were at that time but as I said previously, Aerys II passed over Aegon (allegedly Young Griff) and Rhaenys. Illyrio and Varys' original plans were to "help" Viserys to reclaim the throne so I assume they thought it would be easier for Young Griff to be accepted after Viserys proving himself being his father's son, just as now Varys wants Cersei on power so Westeros can be weackened (or maybe they just hoped he would be dumb enough to get himself killed, which it did happen but I find it unlikely for them to put stock in hoping being lucky with that outcome) but their plans got a bit screwed by Dany surviving : " If truth be told, I [Illyrio] did not think Daenerys would survive for long amongst the horselords." - A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion II

I still doubt Aegon (or FAegon) will be so easily accepted, given the fact that Jon Con wants him married with Daenerys so his claim can be legitimate. Mind you that he is also expected to be her consort, not her king (i.e. : the sort of king Moros was to Nymeria , whom Martin compares with Daenerys : Nymeria had more in common with someone like Daenerys or Joan d'Arc than with Brienne or Xena the Warrior Princess.” ) : We need the girl. We need the marriage. If Daenerys accepts our princeling and takes him for her consort, the Seven Kingdoms will do the same. Without her, the lords will only mock his claim and brand him a fraud and a pretender. - A Dance with Dragons - The Lost Lord

That was my bad assuming Rhaegar was disinherited, but Viserys being named Aerys' new heir means that his children lost their claim (Aegon and Rhaenys weren't dead yet). Viserys' line was the one with a claim from Rhaegar's death onward and so Rhaegar's children are still passed over. And since Viserys has no heir, Daenerys is the next in line.

My bad, it seems like he thought of Viserys as the heir because of the news of Rhaegar's death, not because he no longer saw him as his heir.

Deleted

Oh boy, I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall....yes, they conquered Westeros but they established their dinasty, something that Robert did not do.

“Birds flew and couriers raced to bear word of the victory at the Ruby Ford. When the news reached the Red Keep, it was said that Aerys cursed the Dornish, certain that Lewyn had betrayed Rhaegar. He sent his pregnant queen, Rhaella, and his younger son and new heir, Viserys, away to Dragonstone, but Princess Elia was forced to remain in King’s Landing with Rhaegar’s children as a hostage against Dorne.” — The Fall of the Dragons: The End, The World of Ice and Fire.

Because their family was the one who built the damn throne any claimant wants and who united Westeros, just as the Starks built their seat and conquered the North. So naturally, many will see a Targaryen as a rightful claimant to the throne and a Stark as a rightful ruler of Winterfell and the North.

Regardless what people may think Aerys should of shouldn't have done, he was the king at that time and only a king can name a heir or disinherit and he chose Viserys over Rhaegar I'm saying that Targaryens have a right to the Irone Throne and to rule Westeros for the same reasons Starks have a claim to the North and Winterfell.

I just showed you that people will see Daenerys as the most obvious Targaryen heir, not Young Griff or Jon. In the answer is explicitly told what I ment.

The fact that even Young Griff with his Targaryen looks won't have an easy time being believed as Rhaegar's son, makes me believe that Jon with his Stark looks, with so few people who can corroborate his parentage will have an even hard work to make people believe so if Daenerys won't back him up. Also, Rhaegar was disinherited by Aerys II so all his heirs lost their claim.

Daenerys’ claim to the Iron Throne — Daenerys was Viserys’s heir and has the best claim to the Iron Throne. (pretty obvious, but worthy remembering and talking about it again) Right in her first chapter in A Game of Thrones, during the feast at Khal Drogo’s manse, Daenerys is introduced as Princess of Dragonstone : Oil burned in black iron lanterns all along the walls. Beneath an arch of twining stone leaves, a eunuch sang their coming. “Viserys of the House Targaryen, the Third of his Name,” he called in a high, sweet voice, “King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm. His sister, Daenerys Stormborn, Princess of Dragonstone. His honorable host, Illyrio Mopatis, Magister of the Free City of Pentos.” — Daenerys I, A Game of Thrones. As per Targaryen tradition, the heirs to the Iron Throne receive the title of Prince/Princess of Dragonstone. Many of Daenerys’ ancestors had this title, including her oldest brother Rhaegar Targaryen. Therefore, being introduced as Princess of Dragonstone speaks of Daenerys’ status as Viserys’ heir. It means that, after his death, she is rightfully the queen of the Seven Kingdoms and head of House Targaryen. “Viserys is dead. I am his heir, the last blood of House Targaryen. Whatever was his is mine now.” — Daenerys X, A Game of Thrones. To be fair, this is all very obvious. However, we Daenerys stans do have to repeat ourselves and speak the obvious over and over again, so that canon facts might enter into her antis’ heads. “Birds flew and couriers raced to bear word of the victory at the Ruby Ford. When the news reached the Red Keep, it was said that Aerys cursed the Dornish, certain that Lewyn had betrayed Rhaegar. He sent his pregnant queen, Rhaella, and his younger son and new heir, Viserys, away to Dragonstone, but Princess Elia was forced to remain in King’s Landing with Rhaegar’s children as a hostage against Dorne.” — The Fall of the Dragons: The End, The World of Ice and Fire. This quote from The World of Ice and Fire is very interesting, to say the least. It proves to us that Aerys II named Viserys his heir over Rhaegar’s children, Aegon and Rhaenys. Thus, even if Aegon/Young Griff is really Rhaegar’s son (which I doubt, but I will not expand on this here), Daenerys still has the better claim as Viserys’ heir, because Aerys II disinherited Rhaegar’s children. Again, no surprise here. It is just me reinforcing a canon fact. — The “Right of Conquest”. I have already seen the argument that, as Robert Baratheon overthrew the Targaryen dynasty and became king, Daenerys’ claim to the Iron Throne is not valid by the Right of Conquest. I begin now my argument stating that I disagree with this notion. First of all, the Targaryens built the Iron Throne and ruled over a unified Westeros for about 300 years. This means that Daenerys’ ancestors had plenty of time to establish their dynasty and their control and legitimacy over the Iron Throne. That’s not the case with the newly-established Lannister-Baratheon regime (which is already facing a succession crisis).The legitimacy of the Lannister-Baratheon regime is still in check. That’s why Robert Baratheon is so wary of Viserys and of Daenerys’ marriage to Khal Drogo — they are still a threat to his reign, to the point he sends men to hunt the last Targaryens, to the point he wants to kill the 13 years old and pregnant Daenerys. Besides, Robert himself is aware that some people call him the Usurper. The king shifted uncomfortably in his saddle. “Perhaps. There are ships to be had in the Free Cities, though. I tell you, Ned, I do not like this marriage. There are still those in the Seven Kingdoms who call me Usurper. Do you forget how many houses fought for Targaryen in the war? They bide their time for now, but give them half a chance, they will murder me in my bed, and my sons with me. If the beggar king crosses with a Dothraki horde at his back, the traitors will join him.” — Eddard II, A Game of Thrones Robert and his brothers had a Targaryen grandmother, Rhaelle. This blood tie, despite of his hate for the Targaryens, gave him a claim to the Iron Throne and a degree of legitimacy. Robert sat down again. “Damn you, Ned Stark. You and Jon Arryn, I loved you both. What have you done to me? You were the one should have been king, you or Jon.” “You had the better claim, Your Grace.” — Eddard VII, A Game of Thrones. ↓ Renly shrugged. “Tell me, what right did my brother Robert ever have to the Iron Throne?” He did not wait for an answer. “Oh, there was talk of the blood ties between Baratheon and Targaryen, of weddings a hundred years past, of second sons and elder daughters. No one but the maesters care about any of it. Robert won the throne with his warhammer.” He swept a hand across the campfires that burned from horizon to horizon. “Well, there is my claim, as good as Robert’s ever was. If your son supports me as his father supported Robert, he’ll not find me ungenerous. I will gladly confirm him in all his lands, titles, and honors. He can rule in Winterfell as he pleases. He can even go on calling himself King in the North if he likes, so long as he bends the knee and does me homage as his overlord. King is only a word, but fealty, loyalty, service … those I must have.” — Catelyn II, A Clash of Kings. This begs the question: if even Robert Baratheon can derive legitimacy for the Iron Throne over his Targaryen ancestry, why cannot Daenerys, as the head of House Targaryen, do the same? Not to mention Daenerys is sought out by men like Quentyn Martell and Euron Greyjoy because of her claim (of course her dragons are a bonus, but her Targaryen name also has weight). We have Doran Martell planning to avenge his sister Elia and her children by overthrowing the regime Lannister-Baratheon and crowning Viserys at first (then sending Quentyn to look for Daenerys). Not to mention there are still Targaryen loyalists in Westeros, as I will show in my next argument in a bit. I would also to highlight the Starks and the North/Winterfell. By Right of Conquest, now the Boltons are the Wardens of the North. Yet Roose Bolton know his legitimacy is thin, and that he has to thread carefully. That’s the whole point of marrying a fake!Arya to Ramsay; they think Jeyne Poole is Arya Stark; thus giving the Boltons a more secure claim to the North. Even so, there are still Stark loyalists, men who despise the Boltons and literally want to bathe in their blood. Men that want to rescue Ned’s valiant little girl. Wyman Manderly send Davos to retrieve Rickon Stark from Skagos, as he considers the boy his true liege lord. This shows us that the Right of Conquest is not everything for a ruler and for a smooth reign; legitimacy and the loyalty of the subjects are key. — Targaryen loyalists in Westeros Through "A Song of Ice and Fire", there are quite a lot of instances in which GRRM showcases the existence of Targaryen loyalists, even after about 16 years of the end of Robert’s Rebellion. As aforementioned, Doran Martell and Dorne are an example of this. Jon Connington believes Young Griff is Rhaegar’s son, and is actively planning and acting to reconquer Westeros and crown him.Here I would like to highlight other characters and their perception of the Targaryens. “Yet I must have some army,” Dany said. “The boy Joffrey will not give me the Iron Throne for asking politely.” “When the day comes that you raise your banners, half of Westeros will be with you,” Whitebeard promised. “Your brother Rhaegar is still remembered, with great love.” — Daenerys II, A Storm of Swords. ↓ Two men were walking sentry, spears in hand. “I was taught that good men must fight evil in this world, and Renly’s death was evil beyond all doubt. Yet I was also taught that the gods make kings, not the swords of men. If Stannis is our rightful king—” “He’s not. Robert was never the rightful king either, even Renly said as much. Jaime Lannister murdered the rightful king, after Robert killed his lawful heir on the Trident. Where were the gods then? The gods don’t care about men, no more than kings care about peasants.” “A good king does care.” — Catelyn V, A Clash of Kings. ↓ “Lord Beric did us no hurt, though,“ her friend whispered. “And that red priest with him, he paid for all they took.” “Paid? He took two of my chickens and gave me a bit of paper with a mark on it. Can I eat a bit of raggy old paper, I ask you? Will it give me eggs?” She looked about to see that no guards were near, and spat three times. “There’s for the Tullys and there’s for the Lannisters and there’s for the Starks.” “It’s a sin and a shame,” an old man hissed. “When the old king was still alive, he’d not have stood for this.” “King Robert?” Arya asked, forgetting herself. “King Aerys, gods grace him,” the old man said, too loudly. A guard came sauntering over to shut them up. The old man lost both his teeth, and there was no more talk that night. — Arya VI, A Clash of Kings. ↓ “No dragon has ever had three heads except on shields and banners,” Armen the Acolyte said firmly. “That was a heraldic charge, no more. Furthermore, the Targaryens are all dead.” “Not all,” said Alleras. “The Beggar King had a sister.” “I thought her head was smashed against a wall,” said Roone. “No,” said Alleras. “It was Prince Rhaegar’s young son Aegon whose head was dashed against the wall by the Lion of Lannister’s brave men. We speak of Rhaegar’s sister, born on Dragonstone before its fall. The one they called Daenerys.” “The Stormborn. I recall her now.” Mollander lifted his tankard high, sloshing the cider that remained. “Here’s to her!” He gulped, slammed his empty tankard down, belched, and wiped his mouth with the back of his hand. “Where’s Rosey? Our rightful queen deserves another round of cider, wouldn’t you say?” — Prologue, A Feast for the Crows. ↓ “[…] elsewise, we bow only to our own lords, and the king. The true king, not Robert and his ilk.“ He spat. "There was Crabbs and Brunes and Boggses with Prince Rhaegar on the Trident, and in the Kingsguard too. A Hardy, a Cave, a Pyne, and three Crabbs, Clement and Rupert and Clarence the Short. Six foot tall, he was, but short compared to the real Ser Clarence. We’re all good dragon men, up Crackclaw way.” — Brienne IV, A Feast for the Crows. ↓ Piety and devotion. It was all he could do not to laugh. The walls had been bare on his first visit too. Tyrion had pointed out the squares of darker stone where tapestries had once hung. Ser Raymun could remove the hangings, but not the marks they’d left. Later, the Imp had slipped a handful of stags to one of Darry’s serving men for the key to the cellar where the missing tapestries were hidden. He showed them to Jaime by the light of a candle, grinning; woven portraits of all the Targaryen kings, from the first Aegon to the second Aenys. “If I tell Robert, mayhaps he’ll make me Lord of Darry,” the dwarf said, chortling. — Jaime IV, A Feast for the Crows. It is also pretty telling how even Northmen, who raised their banners against Aerys II and the Targaryens, still consider the North “married” the Targaryens, as in the speech of Robb’s crowning as the King in the North: Catelyn was thinking of her girls, wondering if she would ever see them again, when the Greatjon lurched to his feet. “MY LORDS!” he shouted, his voice booming off the rafters. “Here is what I say to these two kings!” He spat. “Renly Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither. Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne? What do they know of the Wall or the wolfswood or the barrows of the First Men? Even their gods are wrong. The Others take the Lannisters too, I’ve had a bellyful of them.” He reached back over his shoulder and drew his immense two-handed greatsword. “Why shouldn't we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead!” He pointed at Robb with the blade. “There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to, m'lords,” he thundered. “The King in the North!” — Catelyn XI, A Game of Thrones. Clear as day, the Targaryens still have support in Westeros among highborn lords, like Doran Martell and Jon Connington, and even among the common folk. For a lot of Westerosis, the Targaryens — specifically Daenerys — are still the rightful and legitimate rulers.

The fact that anoyne thinks Jon will simply be accepted as Rhaegar's son, when in the text Young Griff is pushed to be married with Daenerys because elsewise no one will believe him, is laughable. Franklyn Flowers laughed. "I like it. Sail west, not east. Leave the little queen to her olives and seat Prince Aegon upon the Iron Throne. The boy has stones, give him that." The captain-general looked as if someone had slapped his face. "Has the sun curdled your brains, Flowers? We need the girl. We need the marriage. If Daenerys accepts our princeling and takes him for her consort, the Seven Kingdoms will do the same. Without her, the lords will only mock his claim and brand him a fraud and a pretender. [..]" - A Dance with Dragons - The Lost Lord

Deleted