FourRavensBlackOnWhite

Your point on Tywin is fair. He is both ambitious and dutiful. Robert, Cersei, and Brown Ben all are acting without any duty to a higher cause, only themselves. If you can read Cersei's chapters and believe she is doing anything to benefit her children I would love to see it. It's all about her; her power, her appearance, her time in the sun, all at the expense of poor Tommen who she claims to want to support. From what I can tell we were having a discussion on whether or not Quentyn was ambitious, and I think maybe I used the wrong word. Ambition: a strong desire to do or to achieve something, typically requiring determination and hard work. This does seem to define Quentyn's actions, even if they were (by your own admission) spawned by lesser emotions like fear of shame or vanity. I suppose my theory should use the words Aggression, Violence, and Strength. Point taken

Daario, Brown Benn, hell even Cersei. Just a few examples of people who are dutiful to nothing. Duty is described as a moral or legal obligation. Those three people do not seek to fulfill any obligation whatsoever, but do what they want in the moment to gain power/money/whatever. So no, many people aren't beholden to duty.

I really like all 3 of these points. I never even considered the validity of the bonding from birth. However, if it is true that none of the mounting methods were required, why was it required for Dany? She was deeply bonded to all 3 from birth (and Drogon moreso) yet still had to take him.

Would we call that ambition? Is Barristan Selmy "ambitious" because he so staunchly follows his duty? Seems to me Quentyn's chapters are rife with misgivings and a desire to please his father. Not for glory, nor personal gain, or even love. He only operates from a sense of duty to his house. To me, that sounds almost the opposite of ambitious

If being liked to a human affects size, that is one step away from the personality of said human having an influence! I just find the dragons so interesting and mysterious. Plus, Dany is our only POV riding one and she almost blacks out on Drogon's back (and has burned hands)

@Vaegon the dragonless I understand he was older, but how does that explain Drogon? He is the same age as the others. I like the warg comparison! Sort of like Borroq and his boar being alike

Children can be ambitious! But my original post does tend to agree with you: it's not only blood, but also the attitude (in other words, the current physical state) of the potential rider.

A good observation! Seems like Drowned God worship is encouraged but "open to exchange" when the Greyjoys are around other religions. All great examples. Still doesn't explain Victarion actually hearing the joyous songs of burning, or a voice in his head for the first time.

Sure, but don't you think it's odd that only now does he hear the "voice of the waves" that he thinks is the Drowned God? This man has lived on the sea, been in countless battles and readings, and only once he is introduced to R'hllor and has his hand healed he can hear a voice? Seems odd But does this really show a religious man? All I see there is two instances of "Greyjoy". He trusts in his brother, not the Drowned God himself. He wears Kraken armor for his family, not anything to do with the god. @Springwatch good catch RE the similarity between his experience and Davos'. Either implies that the gods can speak and do exist, or the one god R'hllor is speaking to these men under the guise of gods they are familiar with, or that these men are imagining things and it is a literary device. Hard to say!

Here I want to lay out the start of a theory that "being blood of the dragon" isn't only a hereditary position but a physical state of being. For this I will only be using the main series (due to time constraint) but any evidence from Fire and Blood would be appreciated! 1. The clearest piece of evidence is Dany's taming of Drogon at Daznak's Pit A few things of note here: Dany is not simply "entitled to ride Drogon" because of her blood, but because she conquers him. She sees her goal and heads for it with her blood already up. Yes she is afraid, but as we know the only time a man can be brave is when he is afraid. Ambition, violence, strength. Traits that allow her to finally ride her dragon. 2. We also see some other oddities when it comes to dragons interacting with other characters, namely that the dragons "like" Brown Ben Plumm. Dany thinks this is because of his heritage, with a drop of Valyrian blood generations back, but I posit that it has more to do with who he is: a cutthroat intent on taking what he wants from the world. Ambition, Violence, and Strength. More of the same traits that allow Dany to conquer Drogon. 3. Now, what about Quentyn? He has almost the same amount of "dragonblood" as Brown Ben (with Quentyn's ancestor born around 172AC and and Brown Ben's getting married around 176AC) but obviously fails in his mission. Again, I believe this to have more to do with the three qualities above then simply blood. Quentyn's final chapter is rife with fear These things lack all 3 traits specifically. No ambition, no violence, no strength. Quentyn completely misunderstanding what Dany did in the pit, and arrives with the idea he will mount them like one mounts a horse. Therefore, it is my position that having the blood of the dragon is more a state of mind than lineage (although both may play a role together). As a last aside, I know that all of the Dragon Seeds who obtained dragons were of similar ilk. Netty is considered "foul-mouthed and fearless", Hugh Hammer is clearly strong and ambitious (tried to crown himself), Ulf White was also a schemer who aspired to take what he wanted (i.e. Highgarden over Bitterbridge), and Addam Velaryon is called "relentless and determined". And just to throw one more idea in the pot: does dragon size correlate with these traits of their riders? Was Balerion the largest "because he was born in Valyria and lived free" or because Aegon had almost unlimited ambition? Is Drogon the largest out of chance, or because he is bonded with Dany from the start? Is it true that the dragons began to decrease in size because of captivity or the growing contentedness of House Targaryen?

In some way, Victarion is being influenced by The Lord of Light or by Moqorro. I searched the forums for this, but all the discussions surrounding Victarion and R'hllor are outside the scope of my observations, mostly referring to whether or not he is controlled by Moqorro. Here I just want to point out what seems to me like an obvious connection to some sort of power associated with R'hllor having an influence after his hand is "healed". Evidence: 1. The first thing that caught my attention was something he actually attributes to the Drowned God, right after sleeping with the Dusky Woman: Up to this point Victarion has numerous doubts about his religion and is very clearly not a religious man. Why the sudden change after his hand is "healed"? Going from non-religious to prophet is quite a big leap. Also, literally hearing the god speak just seems extremely uncommon for him, or any other Ironborn including Damphair. The very phrasing itself seems closer to what one would hear from a monotheistic god, referring to creation. Does anyone else ever refer to being "made" by the Drowned God as opposed to just reborn? Also, he immediately thinks about the Red God in the following sentence, strengthening the connection. 2. In that same chapter we see during the burning of the Seven girls: First, where did he get that phraseology about being undefiled by mortal lust? Did Moqorro give him the words to say? Is that something Victarion would accept, and in front of his own crew? Also, before the ketch sank the screaming changed to joyous song. This seems like a confirmation to me that whatever he is hearing (or imagining) is not the drowned god, as it happens before they are in the water. This is a lot like what Melisandre and some of the more fervent Queen's Men claim to hear when people are burning. What do you guys think? I don't care as much about who or what is doing the influencing (be it a god or a priests magic) but it seems extremely clear to me that little pieces of R'hllor worship are being interwoven into Victarion's thoughts and words without him even noticing.

I like a lot of your post here, but not so sure about this one! Over the time scale we are discussing (and in light of this entire comment being about desertification) isn't it possible that southern Westeros was flourishing in the lead-up to the Andal invasion? This would then make it logical for the CotF to try to save their whole continent, as opposed to only the North. It was only after the Andals came that they were pushed further and further North.

The rationale here is oddly fitting. Do I think this is how GRRM makes decisions or plans his chapters? No. He most certainly writes how he says he writes "like a gardener" and "to make a story you can live in". However, I support this theory.

He does not! Just a lot of sex

On my (hopefully) final re-read of ADWD before Winds of Winter releases, and a character stood out to me that I had brushed off in the past: Hildy. She is the "camp follower" in Lord Bracken's tent when Jaime arrives at Raventree. To be clear, this is nothing definitive, but something to keep in mind for any future hints. I believe Hildy is a spy for the Brotherhood Without Banners. Evidence: 1. She is extremely modest and shy when Jaime bursts in, covering her parts and commenting that "her turnips are not for sale", before rushing to don her clothes. However, within a minute or two, she is speaking to Jaime as a woman who knows what she is doing, even "giving Jaime a brazen look" and commenting once Jaime rejects her "no turnips for you then". Nevermind that she "squeezes him" on her way out. That type of extreme switch reminds me of mummery more than anything. 2. She also receives a lot of words for a character that is only (supposedly) there to show characterization of Jonas Bracken and Jaime's sexual desires in conflict with his honor/thoughts of Cersei. How many named camp followers are there? Shae, Ser Ryman's Queen, Fireball's Mother, and Hildy. 3. A small connection, but this also comes on the heels of Jaime's previous chapter (in AFFC) which ends with him speaking to Tom O' Sevens, another smallfolk infiltrating Riverlands locations held by those loyal to the Lannisters. (Not to mention, Mance does that same thing as Abel throughout ADWD). 4. Finally, it seems to fit with Brienne miraculously coming upon Jaime at Pennytree. It makes sense that she is now "working with" The BWB to find Jaime, so it would be assumed that their network would have to bring them together. Any thoughts? I know it is speculation, but a good reason to keep an eye out for a woman with "pug nose and a shaggy mane of hair, with nipples darker and thrice the size of Cersei's".