zajaz

I'm actually a bit interested in the Harlan / Harlen spelling, since it's quite curious that the latter form remains consistent through all the appendixes of the main five books, while -if I recall correctly- the Harlan spelling only appears in TWoIaF and F&B. Could this be another case of Myriah / Mariah Martell?

I just remembered that these two were born almost a year apart, and that got me wondering how much things would have changed if they had married and had kids. Obviously, if they had at least one daughter, then Rhaegar would (probably) have married her... but what if they only had sons much like in canon (Steffon had three, while Genna has four)? Would things really be that much different, then?

I know this is an unlikely scenario, but I was just wondering about this.

Let us say that shortly after the taking the throne, Jon Arryn (somehow) convinced Robert and Stannis that marrying, say, Mace's sister, Janna (assuming she was the right age and available), or one of Leyton Hightower's daughters, would help keep the Tyrells in check.

Now, I know Robert or Stannis considering this, let alone acepting it, is far-fetched, but assuming they did (even if quite grudgingly), how much would Stannis having a wife from House Tyrell (Mina was already married, but I'm not so sure about Janna), or House Hightower (I think Denyse, Leyla, or Alysanne could be right age, considering Malora and Alerie are too old, and Lynesse is just a tiny bit young) change the course of the story?

35 minutes ago, frenin said:

Do those peasants have names?

That's what i thought.

Don't worry, mate; soon enough (hopefully) everyone will remember the names of "the Shepard", "Hobb the Hewer", "the Burning Knight", among others.

Personally, I'm kinda hoping for the storming of the dragonpit (nonsensical as it was in F&B). I never really understood why people seem to love these huge fire-breathing chickens the way they do. It's like they value the lives of these animals way more then the lives of the many peasants and people they burned alive.

8 minutes ago, DMC said:

....He's got a pretty boyish face?

Pretty sure Daemon was more pissed that Viserys - plus his father and grandfather - never told him.

Could be. Maybe part anger for being kept in the dark, and part anger for focusing so much on prophecies when there is a war ready to explode.

10 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

You mean being book accurate?

No, sorry, you're right. They softened Aegon by not making him a pedophile.

That was according to Mushroom, wasn't it? The same source that claim that Rhaenyra had Alicent and Helaena sold to a brothel? If she ends up not doing that in the show, the Green stans would claim that Rhaenyra was whitewashed.

27 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

That's adorable.  Its almost like objective reality doesn't exist.  

Almost being the key word, of course.

18 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Regarding Daemon choking Rhaenyra, I thought it fit with this version of the character. As I've said before, there's no coming back from murdering your wife. I'm glad the showrunners were willing to show how inevitably toxic this marriage would become.

That said, I thought the placement was really weird. Choking someone is something you'd expect to happen in the heat of a raging argument, not between two people disagreeing in low voices. It also completely alters the very first line of dialogue we received from HOTD: "Dreams didn't make us kings, dragons did."

I took it as Daemon is just a dangerous asshole that does not like being told something that goes against what he (thinks) knows is true. From his point of view, all the talk about dreams and signs is just bogus. Real power comes from taking action. Suggesting the opposite triggers him... so he had to gently caress his silly wife to remind her of that fact.

9 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

I'm ... I'm slow... 

It's... it's okay, I guess, mate. We all have our blind spots. I confess I never even thought Rhaenys was mass murderer, but... time proved me wrong.

11 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

Daemon: Starting to think he’s JUST an asshole.  

Really? Only starting?

10 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

This is a such strange comment.

Just last week Rhaenys was criticized for negligently killing hundreds of smallfolk. And I think you are not understanding how many people dislike Alicent.

In the end, Alicent actively did conspire to usurp the throne and Rhaenyra is responding to this usurpation with pure rage. It's just that they are delaying the actions by giving them softer, more nuanced, more humanistic reasons for doing so.

But to say that only the leading female characters are suffering from this is strange. Aegon has been softened up quite a bit and Aemond is almost a different character. The show version of Laenor is a much better person than the book verison. Otto has become three-dimensional. And they even made Borros nowhere near as much of an asshole as he was in the books.

The only characters that have not been softened and humanized in the TV show are Daemon Targaryen, Rhaenys Targaryen and Larys Strong. Rhaenys and Larys are actually tougher, more active and more competent than their book counterpart.

 

Rhaenyra having to contend with Daemon, the walking loose cannon that Baelon and Alyssa so generously gifted us with, is not something new. The two of them did not always get along. Daemon was cold to Laena and murderously mean to Rhea. Is it really surprising that he would get physical with Rhaenyra? Especially when they are both obviously grieving, angry and on edge.

Alicent is also being softened, I feel. And is it really usurpation if she honestly belives that she is doing what (she thought) Viserys wanted? From her point of view, Alicent is fighting for both her son, and her husband last wishes.

15 minutes ago, TormundsWoman said:

I will be very straightforward and honest about this:

I still think that if you feel you must voluntarily explain your reasoning in a set up as this Inside the Ep, before people even ask you about it, then you are either unsure of your work (that your message got across) or you think you didn’t do a good job to begin with. But that’s just me.

I don't think they even needed to explain it. It seemed quite clear to me that Aemond was just a bully with a gun... but he never actually wanted to pull the trigger. Sadly, said trigger is able to think for herself, it seems. That being said, that still makes Aemond responsable for Luke's death, but on a lesser scale than his book self was (assuming, of course, that Book Aemond didn't also kille Luke by accident).

8 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

This episode also confirmed for me what I was saying last week, that the screenwriters have turned all the female characters into saints and martyrs, and in doing so have inadvertently stripped them of their agency and personality (and it's been gratifying to see other people online talking about this over the course of the last week). I'm sure part of it is because of a genuine desire to rectify the mistakes from GOT, but I also think another part is a fear of the same backlash that D&D received, who were accused of being misogynists and worse. And I think that's understandable, by the way--just look at how deranged the Twitter scolds have been towards Sara Hess for a handful of fairly innocuous statements this past week. But ultimately, Alicent and Rhaenyra are not passive peace-makers who get bossed around by the men in their lives. In the books, Alicent actively conspired to usurp the throne, and Rhaenyra reacted to that usurpation with rage and action. The message they seem to be going for on the show is that if everyone had listened to the two queens, the world would be at peace, but men and their egos ruined everything.

. . . which isn't as empowering as the writers seem to believe it is. Elizabeth I, Isabella of Castile, Catherine the Great and Catherine de Medici (among others) were all ambitious and powerful. Does that make them less female than if they hadn't been? Strong performances have kept both Rhaenyra and Alicent engaging, but the writers have all but completely flattened them by this point. 

It's weird, actually. For some writers, if the woman is not a cold, emotionless, rude badass, she is not strong enough. But, at the same time, those same writers are afraid of making women beings that can be as cruel and vicious as the worst of men.

As much of a monster (Book) Aemond was, he was right about one thing, at least: Daemon lived far too long.

17 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Yes.  That is explicit in the book.  Even if the sources are 100% reliable… historians are human they can be wrong.

Still weird that no one remembers a giant freaking dragon killing or maiming like a hundred people the day Aegon was crowned, tho. Or that Alicent was actually around Rhaenyra's age, instead of a decade older, like most maesters claimed. Or that Viserys actually died because he turned into the cryptkeeper, and not because he got obese.

9 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Can we take a moment to talk about how good Storm's End and Shipbreaker Bay looked?

Good God...Condal and Sapochnik have really, really captured the World of Ice and Fire. D&D never put this much effort in.

Couldn't it be budget issues, tho? As much as I dislike what D&D did, I found the Wall and the Lands Beyond the Wall to be quite beautiful, back in GoT.

I also like how people are claiming that Daemon just now has been turned into a more evil character than his book self. Really? Choking Rhaenyra is where you draw the line? Not bashing his first wife's head with a rock just so he could be free to marry Rhaenyra? Or virtually ignoring his daughter just because she did not have a dragon? Or killing an innocent dude in order to let Laenor flee Westeros? Like it or not, (Show) Daemon is a piece of shit.

8 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

I liked the "change" (as pointed out, nobody knows if it's really a change, because there were no witness to the actual fight- show Aemond so far has not been murderous, just a prick).

I don't think they're whitewashing anyone- as pointed out numerous times, the book is based on conflicting and in many cases biased stories. It also just makes more sense to have the characters keep escalating in awfulness as the war wages on. Season 1 Aemond won't be a ruthless murderer spreading terror throughout the Riverlands, s03 will be.

I've heard many people claim that F&B is somewaht biased in favour of the Greens. If that's the case, though, I'd hate to see a Pro-Black version of F&B, because... yikes.

9 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Are we assuming he didn't want to kill him?

Because, he was chasing him down.

What did people think he thought would happen? That he'd pull over and surrender?

No, he meant to kill him and the dragon knew it.

I think he was amazed at his own handiwork.

Then why was he yelling for Vhagar to stop, mate? I think it's safe to assume that, like it or not, (Show) Greens (except maybe Aegon) are less evil that their book selves.

13 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Yeah, but the actress will need to stay off of social media then. There's no way she won't be getting endless hate from angry shippers.

It's sad and pathetic that people get harassed for just doing their work... but, on the other hand, awful as it is for the one actually experiencing it, being the cause of Daemyra (cringe name) stans salty tears is a mark of honor, IMO.

11 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

There's been a massive meltdown of DxR fangirls on Instagram and Twitter and Tik Tok since Friday. Like for real. They've been insulting Ryan and Sara Hess the whole weekend.

Seeing DxR stans being salty brings me life, not going to lie. Imagine if the show choose to make Nettles Daemon's "true love". That will be a glorious day, I swear.

A few things I will say:

Whitewashing is a helluva drug.

Some Black stans are salty as hell because (Show) Greens are not puppy-kicking villains.

DaemonxRhaenyra stans in shambles during the choking scene.

According to some people, you can’t be angry with some of the changes the show has made because F&B was written by unreliable sources.

Trying to change the topic somewhat, I do believe @The Bard of Banefort was onto something mentioning a possible Alicent-Cole-Larys kinda affair? The way Cole said "I will not fail you" to Alicent with that look in his eyes was an interesting choice by the writers (or the director, in this case), I thought. *Shurgs*. I just hope they don't turn this into a soap-opera (then again, HotD already is, so...).

12 minutes ago, sifth said:

To be fair, GRRM tortures pretty much all of his characters, all be it in different ways. Bran starts off the series being crippled, Jon gets stabbed to "death" by his own trusted men, Jamie gets his hand chopped off and spends his next few chapters in an insane amount of pain, Tyrion gets his nose chopped off and so on.

The issue that I have with it is that those (except maybe Bran's case) are all things that happened to a huge amount of men in a span as short as a single month back in the Middle Ages. Stabbing a somewhat unpopular leader? Foreign condottieri maiming an enemy knight? A nobleborn man being injured in battle? Those thing happened in an almost weekly basis during the more violent years of the period.

Killing a noblewoman (akin to a Duchess) and then stripping her naked and throwing her corpse into a river?

That shit would have been condemned by almost everyone (particularly the Chruch), I feel.

Who knows maybe Westerosi are more progressive than we thought? Maybe thay have decided: "If male highborn can be tortured and mutilated, why can't the noblewomen ? It's quite sexist to spare them just because they are the gentle sex".

Also speaking of GRRM''s feminist POV, he sure sometimes is way crueler to the female highborn population that real life was for shock value, I feel. Consider Catelyn's case. What they did to her during the Red Wedding (and to her corpse after it) is something that would have had the real life Chruch excommunating Freys left and right for all eternity. Even Margaret of Anjou (who I'm sure the Yorkist hated with a passion of a thousand suns) was allowed to live under custody (and later ransomed back to France), despite her being (arguably) the real leader of the Lancastrian cause for over ten years. Hurting highborn women (enemies or not) was a big no-no in the Middle Ages.