HOTDfresher

Yes. If the Hightowers had insisted the negotiation for the male child from Allicent being named as heir, their scheme would have been exposed before the marriage itself. Allicent's jealousy of Rhaenyra is tragic. She projects her own insecurities & possible evil intentions on Rhaenyra & uses that assumptions to be on the offense. Rhaenyra herself has not given her any reason to believe that she would harm her kids.

Otto is definitely a case of "you are not as smart as you think you are". Especially his perception that he can manipulate Viserys into doing what he wants. Viserys allows Otto to do what Otto wants as long as it aligns with his own wishes. Viserys loves Daemon but he knows he wouldn't be suitable as a ruler. So he doesn't officially name him his heir even before Aemma's death. He is still hoping to have a son. After Aemma's death, Daemon's suitability is not changed but Otto opens the option of Rhaenyra being Otto's heir. I believe even without the heir for a day incident, Viserys still would have named Rhaenyra his heir. Otto made it easier for Viserys. Viserys 2nd marriage- It seems to me that though Viserys didn't know that he was being manipulated by Otto-Allicent during a emotionally low phase, Viserys considered Allicent a better option than Laena because of her age as well as because he didn't want House Valeyron to gain an even more powerful position politically. There was a bit of a rivalry ongoing between these 2 houses. We saw how Viserys dealt with Otto when he reported about Rhaenyra- Daemon. I think Otto was thinking that like Jahaerys , Viserys too would place much importance on his daughters virtue & disinherit Rhaenyra. Otto already had overplayed his hand in epi 3 about Aegon II being the rightful heir over Rhaenyra. He really shouldn't have made this play. After all the episodes it is clear to me that Viserys loves Rhaenyra above everyone else. His turbulent relationship with Daemon became the most fractured after Daemon damaged Rhaenyra's reputation. Yes he & Rhaenyra had clashes for a while during epi 3-4, but those were because of the fallout of his marriage to Allicent & otherwise typical teenage rebellion phase of Rhaenyra. By epi 5 , they were back on the same page. And we see in epi 6, that after 10 years their relationship is still loving.

My 2 cents on the issue of legitimacy of Rhaenyra- Harwin kids: Records & documentation matters & are the ultimate evidence. Marriages have contracts, especially, royal ones. Births are registered. Laenor Valeyron claims the kids as his own legally. His Valeyron family also claims them as their own. Viserys the King himself accepts them as his legitimate grandsons. So it doesn't matter whether they are not Laenor's kids. My interpretation of Viserys saying the consequences of such accusations will be dire when Allicent is accusing that Rhaenyra's kids are not Laenor's is that the consequences for the accusers will be dire, not Rhaenyra & her kids. Laenor, Rhaneyra & if called for even Harwin are not going to claim that the kids are of Harwin however non-Targaryen they may look. No one is going to admit to it. I think the one so-called "evidence " of looks is infinitely trumped by the evidence of both Jacareys & Lucerys being dragon-riders. This is conclusive gene that is present & essential for the Targaryens & both Rhaenyra & Laenor are dragon riders. So if the Greens, especially, Allicent actually legally try to disinherit Rhaenyra's kids then they will be the one who will be found to be committing treason in order to make her own son the heir. Hence they never legally try this route & only ever perpetuate rumours about it. Actually I am astounded that the Hightowers didn't seem to have a clause in the marriage contract with Viserys that if Allicent births a son, then , he should be named as heir. This is something that should have been clarified in the marriage contract just like Viserys & Corlys were negotiating about the heir taking the name Targaryen instead of Valeyron. Otto's assumptions about Viserys decisions were essentially wrong & came to bite him in the ass.

@Lord Varys @C.T. Phipps So the Green factions core reason for claiming Aegon II as the rightful heir because realm wouldn't support the female heir ends up being nothing more than a fasle self-created boogey man to serve their own ambitions. The mere fact that they had to keep Viserys death a secret & secretly install Aegon II as heir proves that their claims were false. The realm was endangered just so that the Hightowers could fulfill their ambition. It was not as if the realm was suffering under Targaryen rule. That is why I can never support the Greens. Aegon II is nothing but a spoilt prince. As much as Allicent seems to resent Rhaenyra's privilege, Allicent's kids are spoilt as well. In fact worse because they are the males. Plus Allicent is constantly feeding the you are the rightful heir bullshit into Aegon's mind at an impressionable age. No wonder he would end up being a monster. I would definitely like to see both Allicent & Otto regretting their actions & how it led to their own children's downfall. The hatred that they are funnelling in their kids morphing them into despicable humans who would not hesitate to even harm them is the karma that they rightfully deserve.

Based on your discussion it seems that any succession conflict happened before the heir was named, not after it before Viserys I. The only exception to that is Maegor the cruel who killed the ruling King & became an usurper King. As per what has been shown in the show, the Hightowers themselves are propogating the installation of Aegon II over Rhaenyra amongst the lords since his birth. It has nothing to do with Rhaenyra's capabilities as a ruler but about her not being male. So this faction didn't start due to discontent of the lords but with the backing of the Queen's family. That is why Otto is sure that realm would not accept her as a Queen. Because their faction is actively working against the King's decision. It is just ironic that Otto who castigated Daemon for being like Maegor the cruel, himself ended up being instrumental for fighting against the rightful heir & supporting an usurper. The biggest failure for Green faction was that they couldn't prove to Viserys that Aegon II was a worthy heir over Rhaenyra. It isn't as if Rhaenyra is not giving them chances with her lapses. But she is still better than Aegon II on her merits. Also by later marrying Daemon & having legitimate heirs which couldn't be contested she somehow nullified the damage caused by her bastard sons. Plus her family seems to have been a tight supporting unit for Jace. Frankly if the same Rhaenyra was a boy, would there even be a conflict?

Wouldn't her not having her own heirs give cause to the lords who are already opposed to her being future queen to refuse to accept her as their queen? I doubt anyone would let her rule at all & they would just demand Aegon II to be named as heir.

What?! I can barely give credence to Criston hating Rhaenyra for their doomed affair being justified back in epi 5 when his heart break was fresh. But hating her to the extent of bullying her kids is too far. I for one do not believe that Criston was forced by Rhaenyra to have sex. He was not a virgin teen, he was a grown ass man who must have had sexual experience before taking his KG vow. He just got seduced & he wanted her. Otherwise he wouldn't have wanted to runaway with Rhaenyra in epi 5 to save his honor. In epi 5 we see that he his ready to die for so called "breaking his oath". So he could have given Rhaenyra a firm no when she seduced him as well despite the consequences. So please can this Criston being forced by Rhaenyra narrative stop. She doesn't force him for anything. When he says no to her side piece offer, she accepts it. She doesn't force him to do something that he doesn't want.

That is what she should have done. But alas she might have wanted to have her 1st kid to not give the opposition any fuel to disinherit her due to being barren. I don't think she could have predicted that the child wouldn't be born with signature Targaryen features. And that is where she should have stopped having kids with Harwin. But when has anyone in this show done anything that they should have done. From the Targaryens to the Hightowers to Cole to Larys Strong, everyone just does things a few steps further than required.

I think the reason Allicent & Criston get more hate than Daemon is because they act so holier than thou while continuosly doing wrong actions in the name of hating Rhaenyra. The amount of hate that they have for Rhaenyra is unwarranted. Daemon on the other hand does not act like he is a goody two shoe. He is unapologetically vile. He may lie to others about his actions but he doesn't lie to himself at least. So viewers don't have any sort of expectations from Daemon.

I feel Rhaenyra- Laenor did try having kids but she didn't get pregnant by him. I mean in epi 5 they had agreed to fulfill their duty to the realm & then be free to have affairs. If Rhaenyra didn't have kids within a year or 2 of her marriage, you bet she would have been declared barren or something. Laenor would not be blamed. So since she was not able to conceive with Laenor, she got pregnant by Harwin so that she could prove that the fault is not with her. It might also explain why Corlys & Rhaenys are not raising a stink about the children being bastards. They know the fault is in their son & not Rhaenyra. Frankly I think both set of parents knew about Laenor being gay but still arranged the marriage for political reason. It is an open secret that Laenor is gay. So it seems to be an unsaid mutual decision to turn a blind eye to the kids not being Laenors. But I have to agree that having 3 kids with Harwin was wrong of Rhaenyra because it undermines her children's claim. She might have been able to pass off 1 kid but not 3 when they seem to have strong resemblance to Harwin. This again proves that Targaryens are emotional creatures. Rhaenyra likes Harwin so she continues to be with him. It is not as if she is having random affairs.

Allicent & Rhaenyra are so fundamentally different women. Allicent is the dutiful rule following woman while Rhaneyra is the one who bucks against the system. Allicent doesn't take accountability for her own wrong actions in courting Viserys being Rhaenyra's back because she was only doing her duty towards her father. Now any actions that she takes against Rhaenyra are going to be under the tent of duty towards her sons. She has a lot of self pity & views that only she has made sacrifices while Rhaneyra is getting off scott free even when she has not been dutiful. This perception of Rhaenyra seems to be stemming from what she has been taught to be a role of woman in the society. Rhaenyra is a bad woman because she lost her virginity before marriage & lied about it. Otto was fired even though he was telling the truth. But she is blindly ignoring Otto's own role against Rhaenyra. Allicent herself seems to dislike Targaryen custom of marriage within close relations but her father was advocating for arranging marriage between her 2 yr old son & Rhaneyra. In future Aegon II is going to marry his sister. Such hypocrisy much wow. If something is done by Rhaenyra than it is wrong if same thing or even worse done by herself than it is ok. I mean what action is worse- Otto & herself taking advantage of emotionally vulnerable Viserys to get married to him hiding it from Rhaenyra or Rhaneyra hiding her sexual escapade & lying about it to protect herself. Where does Allicent get the moral high ground to judge Rhaenyra? Allicent herself entered into the relationship with Viserys on behest of her father. Viserys & Rhaenyra didn't force her to do so. So if she is now not happy with Viserys as a husband then it is a bed of her own making. If she has a problem with it she herself has to do something to get out of that situation. She just tolerates it in the name of duty & then expects to be rewarded for it. That is why even when I can sympathise with her for certain things I cannot side with her.

I wish we would have got a scene of Jason Lannister watching Rhaneyra on Syrax. It would have been a treat to see the arrogant ass brought down quite a few notches .

@Lord Varys I think they didn't show Vhagar's claiming by Laena because they want to show Vhagar's claiming by Aemond who will be one of the most important players. That will be one of the most important facet for Aemond's character as well as for the Greens. Laena & Laenor seem to be cool characters but are not that important in the larger story as they will be dead in the next couple of episodes. As to why Rhaenyra is not dragon riding to meet her suitors- the answer is obvious that the suitor tour is a diplomatic one. Rhaenyra being a dragon rider is a well known fact. She doesn't need to flaunt it in front of suitors who do not have this advantage. Her being the princess & heir to the throne is already intimidating enough for the suitors.

I haven't read any of the books of GM. I am just a casual viewer. I am finding the show very entertaining & it is really interesting to see the political machinations & motivations of all the characters. None of the characters are the typical "good guys" or "bad guys". No one is fighting for the betterment of the realm or the small folk. All of lords are just trying to uplift their own standing. The so called succession problem is a problem created by Otto Hightower. He saw the opportunity to get his own daughter into the royal family with Queen Aemma's death which would then give him access to the royal bloodline through his grandchildren. He didn't want Daemon to be Viserys successor more because he couldn't control him rather than because Daemon was evil. Daemon would have thrown him out the very next second. But he underestimated Viserys commitment to Rhaenyra. He thought he could easily manipulate Viserys to install his male heir as Rhaenyra being the heir was anyways an unconventional & unpopular decision among the lords. It fundamentally affected the inheritance system of Westeros. But Rhaneyra proved to be a tough cookie. I sympathise with Allicent because she was raised by a manipulative father who used her as a pawn. I feel for her being stuck in a loveless marriage as a broodmare to produce heir. But she is no innocent. She actively participated in her father's scheme even if under her father's orders. Her lack of awareness about her own wrongdoings as well as her father's just puts me off big time. It is not as if Otto's dismissal happened in a vacuum. She knows he has been actively plotting against Rhaenyra but still gets hurt if Rhaneyra for once gets an upper hand over his machinations. Now instead of taking a stand against a father who has put her & her children in a dangerous position she is making a stand against Viserys & Rhaneyra when literally they have done nothing against her or her children. Rhaneyra actually has many qualities that remind me of Arya. She is the one who doesn't want to follow the social construct laid out for women in the society. This is even before she was named as heir. She wanted to be more than a royal womb. Frankly Rhaneyra is a spoilt & entitled princess but she is honestly a good kid. She loves her parents, is good in studies, takes interest in politics which is what her future career is. Yes she is bratty & sassy like a teen girl but she has not actively plotted against Allicent or her kids at all. I have seen many comments about Rhaneyra not understanding Allicent's position but I think she is the only one who has understood it from the start. She knows that Allicent would prefer her own kids being on the throne because frankly as a mother so would Rhaenyra. She cannot be her friend anymore because Allicent has directly made herself into her opposition by becoming the queen. Allicent in my opinion was the one who didn't understand the gravity of her own actions & thought that they would be one big happy family even after knowing her father's intentions right from the start. Rhaneyra has not done anything that has shown that she would be a bad ruler. She can do as many kings did before - surround herself with competent people & rule. She is not a cruel person. She is kind of the person who follows live & let live policy. If you are in your lane then she is fine with it but don't expect her to simply take it when you dish it out. Take for example her love life. She likes Daemon but she doesn't go ballistic just because he leaves her hanging ie. rejects her after deliberately wooing her. She is like fine if you don't want me, then you don't want me. She moves on from him & goes to Criston who is one of the few people she trusts & feels comfortable with. But does she mislead him by giving him false promises or making love declarations. No. I don't think she would have forced him if he had resolutely rejected her. He didn't because he wanted her & there was no lack of opportunity for him to say a firm no. He had valid reason also. So please spare me the narrative of Rhaneyra using her position of power against him. The only thing she used was her seductive power. It is Criston who has very high standards for himself & cannot accept that he easily dismissed his vows for sensual pleasure. Hence he views their sexual interaction as something more than the casual sex that it was. Again lack of self awareness.